User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 03 31

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[10:59]	Twisted Laws:	hello andrew
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[10:59]	Krull Aeon:	Hi Andrew
[10:59]	Moon Metty:	hi Andrew
[11:00]	Uni Ninetails:	Hi there
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	Greetings.
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Hello ... I hope to be back soon, gotta run to another meeting
[11:00]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon, Kitto :)
[11:00]	Moon Metty:	oh lol
[11:01]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	that was fast
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, Simon has been pulled into another meeting.
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Ok... announcements. I don't have much.
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Well... anything. Maybe I'll remember something to mention later.
[11:02]	Moon Metty:	ok
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Any more cluse on the LSL lag problem?
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I have not found time this week to look further into your simulator lag problem.
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	I did save all the logs I need off to the side.
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Ah. That is waht I feared
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'm hoping to be able to dig around.
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Will this turn into another 'too bad - its how things are' ?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	All I know is that it appears that several things might be failing ast the same time as your script sensors (for script engine being descheduled)
[11:03]	Moon Metty:	there's a memory leak fixed in 1.26
[11:03]	Eata Kitty:	That's a bit negative
[11:03]	Moon Metty:	maybe that will solve some of the lag
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think this is typical behavior. That is something is triggering a problem.
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hat+ howdy
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	However, I don't yet know enough to say how or when it would be fixed.
[11:04]	Asterion Coen:	hello folks :)
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hat HOWDY
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails waves
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[11:04]	Moon Metty:	hi :)
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	It could be a recurring network glitch, for all I can tell so fear.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	far
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Its really bad in that sim. However in a 'good' sim - events like that happen 1 or 2 times an hour
[11:05]	Moon Metty:	Kitto, does the sim have high simulation time?
[11:05]	Twisted Laws:	it seems the public sandboxes have been crashing/resetting more often this last week than in the past.
[11:05]	Asterion Coen:	(nice new legs morgaine, lol)
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	That one sim is suffering in particular huh? That is a "good" sign -- it is probably some content that is bursting the load or something.
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Moon: Which sim and what param is 'simulation time'?
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	is something borked?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	If so it can be worked around.
[11:06]	Moon Metty:	expand the "Time (ms)" in the statistics window
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Greetings, Rex, and the other few rezzed, and the multitude laggardly
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto was noticing some scripts getting very few script resources for a burst of a few seconds in one particular region.
[11:06]	Moon Metty:	there you see an entry "simulation time"
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hiii
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Well my suspicon was 'temp rezzer' - but there is no temp rezzer known of in the sim that has much lower instance of events
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	i can't see anybody:(
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice hat on hat, Ast :P
[11:07]	Garnet Psaltery:	Might take a few minutes Rex.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, have you looked at the "simulation time" histories to see a correlation burst in any time category?
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	"The problem is that LSL seems to quit running for 1 to 15 seconds
[11:07]	Asterion Coen:	morgaine yes, wanted to see the cloods ;à
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dammocletian Broadsword?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	How often does the problem happen in that region Kitto?
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	i have been here before, it doesn't usually take minutes
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	hat Blue kittie
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	In the bad region - several times a minute
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	in the good region coupl an hour
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so I wouldn't have to wait very long to witness an event.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	That is good to know. I'll try to visit it later today.
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	When LSL stops, the istantaneous TD drops very low. e.g. 0.25
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Right, so what is eating the time? The various time stats may provide a clue.
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would a timer event work? Maybe a ball could have llSetScale(<delay, delay, delay>);
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	I have no way to record the various time stats
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	I can grab TD - which it does - its in the data provided
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, I was refering to the Ctrl+Shift+1 stats.
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	Me to
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	One cannot grasp what they do
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	No way to capture
[11:10]	Asterion Coen:	(rex u got a seat next to me :)
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i don't see u, nor the seat:(
[11:11]	Asterion Coen:	i mean next to the mystic guy :à
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I was just wondering... if you opened each one so that it showed history... which one shows a burst that correlates with the event.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	But don't worry about that info. I'll go see for myself.
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Ah - use the graphs - yes that would work
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Right.
[11:12]	Moon Metty:	it has a history of 30 seconds i think
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, now that the group is larger... I didn't have any announcements or news this week.
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	server-1.26 is still being tested, but I don't think it has any blocker bugs/problems
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	So the topic of conversation is open.
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler'll have to sneak over to Aditi, and find a good blocker: Aren't there some bugs still be be fixed in 1.25.6?
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	If anyone has something on their mind they can post it to chat.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, they aren't accepting any new bug fixes that aren't new in server-1.26
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	could there be a function that can give how many scripts does a user have running in the attachments:)
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	I have one Andrew. Once we have more of OGP defined, how close are the sims to being able to have various types of downloads switchable on and off?
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Where is the Sheep girl, who shouold be keeping her hand in, with the tradition of SVC-22?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	That is, I've already got two branches full of bug fixes, but they aren't accepting them -- they are scheduled to be picked up by server-1.27.
[11:15]	Asterion Coen:	rex, the list wont fit in your new hat :)
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, they've been cherry-picking the important ones out of my maint-server-7 and -8 branches.
[11:15]	Moon Metty:	welcome back Simon
[11:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is for a bit of extra scalability in events. Ie. allow some use control over what updates a client receives, through caps selection.
[11:15]	Asterion Coen:	hello simon :)
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	So, maybe a third or a quarter of all bugs in those branches have already been ported to server-1.26
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I'm reading your question...
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	right, it will fit in yours, because it has more chips:)
[11:16]	Krull Aeon:	Chips? Oh now Im hungry :D
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Unfortunatelt some bugs are backwards compatibility issues, so have to remain :-(
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't clear to me what you means by "types of downloads switchable on and off".
[11:17]	Asterion Coen:	:) oh, well, im eating coconuts butter, so u can say what u want rex ,)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, perhaps you could elaborate with an example.
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	right , the buter wil makeit runsmother:)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Just describe a scenario where it works perfectly for some "download" you might want to toggle.
[11:18]	Asterion Coen:	:)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	And I'll tell you whether that is possible, easy, or hard.
[11:18]	Eata Kitty:	Well it would make things run a lot faster if you stopped sending updates...
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps you're talking about a "subscription model" for getting any/all info from SL servers?
[11:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: oh, pretty much anything. The idea in OGP is to provide access to everything via capabilities, and by default to provide a package of caps that gives everything. However, if a client wishes to receive less information, then either the initial caps set is not requested, or the capabilities that are not required are actually returned, so that the correponding updates are turned off. (Eg. no effects being sent, or no avs beyond 20m, or whatever)
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok, so yes some sort of subscription model.
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	So the question is sort of about, if the sim infrastructure in a kind of state where the interest list can be controlled.
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep
[11:20]	Moon Metty:	hmmmm, or don't update the parcel next door where a party with 26 avatars is going on
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I don't really know how close the simulator is to supporting subscriptions... for some data it won't be too hard -- one server version cycle to get it done and shipped.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	For other data, probably the higher bandwidth and important data, it would take a while to get it into a caps subscription model.
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	I've thought about that a bit ... there are some ugly edge cases, such as when an object moves from one parcel to another (where you don't want updates). It needs to put that object somewhere, or kill it, so they don't pile up at the edge
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	The "interest list" in the simulator actually pertains just to object data.
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's one of the requirements for getting OGP to work with Limited Capability Clients, eg. cellphones, or braille readers, etc etc.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	That is, in its current form it only transmits object data (avatars, regular objects, trees)
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard any push for OGP support at my level yet.
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler hopes he isn't receiving a lot of Windlight Data
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: good point, yeah that's a nasty edge case
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	That is, I haven't heard any requests for work, or hints of projects, related to OGP support yet.
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hahaha ... nor have we, it's worrying :P
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	When they reach my plate then they will be one or two simulator versions away, I would guess.
[11:23]	Moon Metty:	not easy ...
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler figures Open Grid will have a lot of 16yos coming to Andrew for advice on how to build the Physics Engine.
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	We certainly won't be supporting the entire OGP plan in one version release. I would expect to see incremental shipment of that stuff. Over two or three simulator versions at least.
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's a good way to meet future talents, and schools will want to showcase.
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	How often do you chat with Zero?
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Arawn, in a whay.. already here :)
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	OGP is only about 10% defined so far, so there's a ton of work yet to be done. I assume that Zero will want things added incrementally though. Big Bangs are bad.
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	I was digging into that update code thinking about a 'parcel privacy' feature ... sort of a 'what happens on the parcel, stays on the parcel' kind of thing
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon++
[11:26]	Krull Aeon:	Are you in Vegas Simon LOL
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	but it didn't get any further than that ... some investigation, no code
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: have you seen Argent Stonecutter's "Parcel Basements" proposal, from way back?
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Not now, but I have visited :)
[11:27]	Krull Aeon:	;)
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	No, I haven't seen that proposal
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd think an access listed parcel would look like a bump in the ground, rather than orbitting me off of flying carpets.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... was that what Argent's basement proposal was?
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Ignore that display - its a reset error - oh but thats real
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	10 second delay
[11:29]	Krull Aeon:	llSimLag(0); - :P
[11:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Quick summary of "Parcel Basements": beaneath every parcel, 1Km down in the bedrock (that's just the "image" :P), every parcel has a basement of say 100m height, the same shape as the parcel above. You can only enter a basement by direct teleport if you're the owner, or by owner invite. Key property: only clients whose avatars are in the basement ever get objects sent to them from that basement. Total block otherwise, so an adjacent basement gets nothing whatsoever.
[11:31]	Eata Kitty:	Thats a lot of effort for private humping rooms
[11:31]	Uni Ninetails smirks
[11:31]	Eata Kitty:	Hey, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
[11:31]	Krull Aeon:	Meow
[11:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Eata: don't smirk about privacy. It's a matter of life and death in some countries.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, LL hasn't been interested in lots of little virtual worlds yet.
[11:32]	Uni Ninetails:	Sounds like sony's home crappertry actually that p2p ickyness in your "home"
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	LL makes more $$ out of selling private sims to get that functionality
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	But some people will want small private worlds that have near seamless integration into SL. I suppose it will happen eventually, but we're not working on that now.
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Argent Stonecutter proposed that on the SL forums some years ago, and it's probably the easiest to implement of many different proposals. No above-ground problems.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	I think private spaces within SL would be a useful feature. I'll keep thinking about it.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	ok, off to another meeting ... sorry to type and run ...
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Privacy is essential. We're pretty cosy here in the west, but SL is going beyond just the west.
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	I still like the idea of a simple interest list control, but Lindens might like the idea of a simple interest list.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Actually Morgaine, if we had authenticated subuscription models, then we could do private rooms inside of SL buildings.
[11:34]	Uni Ninetails:	thatd be nice
[11:34]	Eata Kitty:	I always thought it would be kind of cool if you could just pop your own kind of bubble out of nowhere, so you could just kinda step sideways through reality into your own place for changing and stuff
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	The simulator could just know not to send any of the "inside" info to anyone who was not allowed to subscribe.
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: yes, but it's a LOT harder, it's full of edge cases above ground when trying to integrate into the public world.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Well, perhaps not all that hard....
[11:35]	Uni Ninetails:	p2p meeting space hosted on the client side *ducks
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	suppose we required you to make an object that defines the boundaries of the space.
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	How much power would I need, to host a 64X64 sim?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	We could then use an algorithm for computing the bounding shape of the container
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	and use the equivalent of collision queries to see if objects were inside or not
[11:36]	Moon Metty:	but how would the private space look for someone without access? a black box?
[11:36]	Eata Kitty:	A door?
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	That is why we would require people to make the container object -- the outside would look like the object they created.
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler'd expect Plywood, unless it's extended ground.
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	a black hole
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	No, what I'm thinking is that someone would have to make a "building"
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	and declare that everything inside the building was private.
[11:37]	Eata Kitty:	Oh, a literal container
[11:37]	Asterion Coen:	(remember me something i saw in a virtual world video) :)
[11:37]	Eata Kitty:	No space overlapping then
[11:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I see you're getting there, cool. Shortly you're going to arrive at the same conclusion we did .... it's hard :-))))) Parcel Basements oversome sooooooo much of the difficulties :P
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we could hide inside invisible virtual buildings.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	If they built a building that was not sufficiently "closed" then the private space woudl not work
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	How about some special texture that prevents camera view inside except for some list of Avs
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	so we could enforce the idea that the building be a closed container
[11:38]	Asterion Coen:	(or a wall that doesnt let escape a chat) :à
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... actually there would be ways to compute an approximate shape even if it were not closed -- probably not necessary.
[11:39]	Uni Ninetails:	how about a private flag for a prim "space that anything within said prim does not res for anyone outside. if you in the group perhaps you can see.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Uni, that is what I'm talking about.
[11:39]	Uni Ninetails:	which is somthing ive been going on about for adult content....
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Using the Internet, as a standard, why allow anything to rez, if the avie can't go there?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	However, I think it makes sense that the private space would have a "container" just for maintaining coherence with the rest of the world.
[11:40]	Krull Aeon:	What about a privacy texture that could be assigned in the parcel window
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Krull, I didn't understand that idea.
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	The way streaming videos might not work acros parcel boundaries?
[11:41]	Uni Ninetails:	hmm then you would have a room entireley with one texture.... and would still have the same spacial issue
[11:42]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	and it's not going to be implemened viewer-side anyway...
[11:42]	Krull Aeon:	Well say that particular texture can be used to conceal anything behind it and would be assigned through the parcel settings window
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	Another way one might do it: There's these 'clouds' we see when Avs' info has not been sent to us. How about a flag/settin/whatever to simply prevent data transmission except to Avs on the list?
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew/Simon: one of the many threads on privacy issues we covered. Ignore my proposal there (#3). I'm supporting Parcel Basements now (#2), whereas here you're talking about a sort of #1 idea. http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?p=1533912#post1533912
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to read the forum thread later Morgaine, but yes, I like idea #1 over basements #2, personally.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	In short... I think it is doable if we get certain things done first:
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	#1 is absolutely full of flaws and corner cases, hehe :P Read the thread later if you're interested :-)
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	The main thing being: overhaul the interestlist such that it supports a subscription model and can handle somewhat arbitrary spatial segmentation
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Someone was emailing me about the idea for "private parcels" last week, I forget who it was...
[11:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, the interest list needs sorting out for various reasons. We've mentioned (i) OGP scalability and (ii) privacy, but there's also (3) Griefing control.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	But I mentioned that the idea of "everything on my parcel is private and cannot be seen by those who I don't want" is something that I've argued against in the past
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Sim-lest way to get a private sim is - run your onw.
[11:47]	Uni Ninetails:	End up with vast realms of empty sim terrian *yuck
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	own.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	mostly because of the weird interactions when two people are standing on opposite sides of the parcel -- one can see out, but the other cannot see in.
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	The world would be bleak as hell if people's plots became invisible or opaque. It's bad enough already owing to ban lines and security orbs. Parcel Basements overcomes that.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	However... if we were to require people to make a "building" and define its interior as the space which is private, then I think that would be fine.
[11:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Indeed Uni
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	u get sae thing if everybody moves to the basment
[11:48]	Moon Metty:	it's an idea, yes
[11:48]	Uni Ninetails:	yeah but it doesnt feel very seamless.... the basement sounds like what afore mentioned home does with your homespace.
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	same*
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	How about if it was just limiting AV updates, chat, etc? Normal objects all all visible
[11:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: not everyone can afford their own sim. In fact, the vast majority can;t.
[11:48]	Uni Ninetails:	everyone will want to spend prims in the basements
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wouldn't the location of the building be inside the building?
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the "lots of small virtual worlds" model has been less interesting to LL since the beginning.
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	We set out to make one big world, so we've intentionally decided to NOT work on making lots of small worlds.
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	If you have a PC that can run the client decently then you can run your own sim on it, and host one other Av on the net bandwidth
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	That may change, but so far that has been the case.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	if u have a choice of where to decorate more, wouldn't u decorate the basement?
[11:50]	Twisted Laws:	make sure its region settable so we can have sims that don't allow the blocking... :)
[11:50]	Uni Ninetails:	Dual core laptop 3 gig runs a simulator about the same content as this sim smoothly.
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's only a small private area, Andrew. Don't portray it as "private worlds", except in the sense that one has private areas in one's home too. It's an easy approach.
[11:50]	Asterion Coen:	laptop tss tss
[11:51]	Uni Ninetails:	what? i was bored
[11:51]	Asterion Coen:	<- laptop allergic
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Well Morgain, the basement idea actually adds "area" to the simulator -- unless you run that little space in a separate process.
[11:51]	Eata Kitty:	I think his point was there would be so many of them you would effectively have a huge amount of seperate space
[11:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	People will still have the nice decorative stuff on their land above. Don't forget vanity --- the parcel basements are hidden, don't impress anyone.
[11:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	there probably should be something to dicourage people from using a single megaprim covering the whole parcel, some sort of prim economy price
[11:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	*discourage
[11:52]	Krull Aeon:	Basement = Secret Kitty Lair :)
[11:52]	Uni Ninetails:	Then if your not impressing... why bother. we have space up to god knows sky box works does it not
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Sky boxes are not truely private in many areas.
[11:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: yes, it adds area. But you've given people so little area that that's a good thing, about time :-) Disk costs have plummeted, yet acreage costs have not.
[11:53]	Asterion Coen:	thick, increase the prim sizes and the prim quotas, ppl wont need to use megas anymore :)
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	The most privacy you can currently get is your own region.
[11:53]	Uni Ninetails:	20m max prim size please
[11:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Double the acreage would be a nice thing to give. They wouldn't get any more prims of course.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh...
[11:54]	Eata Kitty:	I think disk costs is the least of their worries with increasing space
[11:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Asterion, I meant as a privacy object thing
[11:54]	Asterion Coen:	even 20x20 is too small for architectural projects
[11:54]	Asterion Coen:	oh
[11:54]	Asterion Coen:	nm
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler lobbies for an increase in Lobbying: But with this model, you can extend the conceptual privacy of comprehension...
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: only a tiny minority can afford their own sim. Suggesting that privacy is only for those who can pay is not cool :-(
[11:55]	Uni Ninetails:	i can barely afford mine.
[11:55]	Uni Ninetails:	and have no privacy XD
[11:55]	Eata Kitty:	I don't know why you keep on going on about SL like it's some kind of privacy service
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I see that I need to work harder and talk less.
[11:55]	Kitto Flora runs his own.
[11:55]	Moon Metty:	lol
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	SL was based on the concept of an open society - Philip's view?
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Now we are getting more and more righteous conservatives who want to restrict more and more.
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Eata/Kitto: I don't think you quite realize what the world is like. Not all places are like in our cosy west. Privacy is what keeps you alive in many countries.
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think an "open society" is a fundamental concept of SL.
[11:57]	Asterion Coen:	all the projects begin with an open society view(like ussr) :)
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	I have been in SL near 5 years.. I know what its like. You are trying to drag your RL into SL>
[11:57]	Eata Kitty:	Morgaine I think it is of poor taste that you try to ethically bankroll privacy in secondlife from the idea of people suffering under regimes
[11:57]	Krull Aeon:	I'm losing weight because of SL thats a positive :)
[11:57]	Uni Ninetails:	yay!
[11:57]	Asterion Coen:	krull hehe
[11:58]	Krull Aeon:	Thats because I hardly ever have time to eat LOL
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	I think more than 'open society' there's been a constant attempt to have 'one world' (even with TG)
[11:58]	Asterion Coen:	krull i got coconuts butter left. if u want
[11:58]	Krull Aeon:	Oh yum :)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	TG = Teen SL Simon?
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	right
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've got to go to another meeting very soon.
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	S Lis expanding, rapidly. Already americans only constitute less than 45% of the population, so you need to think more broadly than only about what applies in the US.
[11:59]	Asterion Coen:	same here
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Anyone have any last minute (small) topic of conversation?
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	this open society is not without rules
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't SL based on Black Rock City? Some things should be kept behind curtains, just so the neighbors don't have to see, and some things are there, so the neighbors can have their noses rubbed in it.
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Take care Andrew, have fun :-)
[11:59]	Uni Ninetails:	Region/esate environment editor please? *begs
[12:00]	Eata Kitty:	Would it be possible to have some kind of STOP_ON_COLLIDE physics flag to stop objects instantly as soon as they hit something? Doing it through scripts has very unpredictable delays
[12:00]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I wanted to raise SVC-1170, if there's time
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wonder if Privacy cna be hybridized into afix for SVC-22
[12:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hahahaha
[12:00]	Asterion Coen:	have fun folks :)
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	Uni - that sounds like a viewer-side feature, but I don't fully understand what you want
[12:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice one Arawn :P
[12:00]	Asterion Coen:	nice hat Rex ,)
[12:00]	Uni Ninetails:	Sim side control of windlight environmental effects.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Eata, possible. I'll think about that one.
[12:00]	Uni Ninetails:	dunno who to ask to be fair
[12:00]	Moon Metty:	thanks Andrew, see you soon :)
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	not the nice one:)
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Ast, take care :-)
[12:01]	Eata Kitty:	I'll put it in as a JIRA feature request
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Stop on Collide would be good for Arrows, certainly, and we've mentioned historic detection in other hours.
[12:01]	Eata Kitty:	Thankyou for the meeting Andrew
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	not the only*(
[12:01]	Moon Metty:	and talking is important as well!