User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 04 28

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[10:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Key, however, is how to develop a good relationship, between your children and their ancestors
[10:53]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Clue 1 given to Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Platform Bear:	Bear Quest Clue 2 given to Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Pipe: Bear Quest Clue 3 given to Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Platform Bear:	Bear Quest Clue 4 given to Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Bear Quest End: Simon Linden Bear given to Youri Ashton
[10:53]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by poppy Silverfall
[10:53]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by poppy Silverfall
[10:53]	Cummere Mayo kicks arawn hard
[10:53]	Bear Quest End: Simon Linden Bear given to Patty1 Rosca
[10:53]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by poppy Silverfall
[10:53]	Cummere Mayo enjoys it so does it again
[10:54]	Cummere Mayo:	hey johan this is theraputic. wanna join in?
[10:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Simon. Cummere was just abusing me
[10:54]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I've heard of the feature campaign :)
[10:55]	Simon Linden:	I'm going to have to run to another meeting at 11:00 so decided to drop in a little early
[10:55]	Youri Ashton:	:o
[10:55]	Cummere Mayo:	hey im being nice this time simon. i left the lynch mob at home
[10:55]	Cummere Mayo winks
[10:55]	Simon Linden:	Thanks!
[10:55]	Youri Ashton:	well could i as you for your bear atleast? :p
[10:56]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi
[10:56]	Simon Linden:	I think it's a decent idea, but since we wanted to actually ship the next update we don't want to add more stuff
[10:56]	Youri Ashton:	ow wait, i have yours already :p
[10:56]	Simon Linden:	ah, for the bear, go click on the one on the railing. He'll give you instructions if you talk to him and answer the questins
[10:56]	Cummere Mayo:	even though this is soemthign that 120+ people really dont want to see this shipped without?
[10:56]	Youri Ashton:	i need andrew's bear :p
[10:57]	Cummere Mayo:	including nearly youre entire beta test groups?
[10:57]	Youri Ashton:	just notice your bear already being in my inventory :p
[10:57]	Youri Ashton:	ty for teh info though :)
[10:57]	Simon Linden:	sure
[10:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know Andrew already has a couple snowmen, on his parcel; maybe he could base something on that.
[10:58]	Cummere Mayo:	were nto asking for it to be in rc0 simon. but.... maybe rc1 even if its very limited?
[10:58]	Youri Ashton:	he has a bear with blue clothes so far i know
[10:58]	Simon Linden:	Well, there's two sides to sort out -- getting a UI that works, and the back end search code
[10:58]	Cummere Mayo:	well ealloot of programers said tht the backend isnt neccisary
[10:58]	Cummere Mayo:	not for at least just the pg only code
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Search code shouldn't be a problem
[10:59]	Cummere Mayo:	cause jsut take the exisiting flag and tell it to do the oposite with it
[10:59]	Youri Ashton:	Andrew Linden is still on his holiday, right?
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	That's what actually does the search, so it will need to be changed. I doubt it's really hard, but it's still more work and re-testing.
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	No, he's around. He also has a meeting at 11:00 so might be there
[11:00]	Cummere Mayo:	have you seen the jira lately?
[11:00]	Youri Ashton:	lol
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	I think there's a long-term chance to get this, but not short-term
[11:00]	Johan Laurasia:	I was wondering if LL was considering adding something along the lines of ninja physics to SL.
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler's heard a story about "lol"
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Hey Lola!
[11:00]	LoLa Varriale:	Can I help you?
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Gotta test the bots :)
[11:01]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:01]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[11:01]	Cummere Mayo:	simon pretty mcuh most of the bsi team residents want it in before 1.23 goes live
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	andrew aint online, jut imed him :p
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	:o
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	there he is
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	haha
[11:01]	Uni Ninetails:	tahdah
[11:01]	Cummere Mayo:	if its not that hard cant it get added for at least one of the later rcs?
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	hey andrew!
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	had a nice holiday i hope?
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler deigns to notice the arrival of Andrew
[11:02]	Cummere Mayo:	hey andrew
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:02]	Johan Laurasia:	I was wondering if LL was considering adding something along the lines of ninja physics to SL.
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Uh...
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I just realized I've got an emergency server-1.26.3 huddle that starts now
[11:03]	Latif Khalifa:	what's the emergency?
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ninja Physics; is that a physics engine that works to invisible results?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	and Simon is supposed to attend
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	the "emergency" is to fix all the important bugs introducedin server-1.26.2
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	You bring the huddle, and we'll invite some noobs
[11:04]	Latif Khalifa:	does 1.26.3 fix "guesture activation state not saved"
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	So, we're going to have to bail on this office hour
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	but the huddle probably won't take the whole hour
[11:04]	Cummere Mayo thinks andrew and simon just are afraid of her >.>
[11:04]	Youri Ashton:	fixing bugs is pretty important, so i dont mind :)
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I'll come back here after to see if anyone is still around
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Sorry about that.
[11:04]	Youri Ashton:	no problems :)
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails:	np :)
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	I saw someone sit on a game bouards, in a way that I used to se more frequently. I don't kow if t's a rutrned bug, though
[11:04]	Qie Niangao:	have a fun huddle, Andrew. :)
[11:05]	Cummere Mayo will wait then
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	I can stay here for a bit, I think
[11:05]	Latif Khalifa:	lola will you wait?
[11:05]	Youri Ashton:	have a great sl day andrew!
[11:05]	LoLa Varriale:	Let me think it over. I'm waiting.
[11:05]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	ok see you all later
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Lola, are you an AI?
[11:05]	LoLa Varriale:	I am an artificial intelligence.
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Lola - is your source code available?
[11:05]	LoLa Varriale:	Yes.
[11:05]	Cummere Mayo:	a bot >.<
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Lola, what's the URL?
[11:05]	LoLa Varriale:	Tell me a story.
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:06]	Uni Ninetails:	hehe
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	OK, that went on a tangent :)
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	simon, its the alice bot
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	the "AI" part
[11:06]	Youri Ashton:	nice hat rex
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ah, Hi, Rex. Come tell Lola a story, while we wait on Andrew to return
[11:06]	Youri Ashton:	and hi
[11:06]	LoLa Varriale:	So you understand. Good. Hi there Arawn. By the way, do you mind if I ask you a personal question? Where is tell a story while we wait on andrew to return ?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	thanks:)
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	I know, she's been here before. I've been interested in getting one setup for experiments but haven't gotten around to it
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:07]	Youri Ashton:	can you send me a copy? i would love to have it!
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	lola what is your password?
[11:07]	LoLa Varriale:	You must know if you are really a botmaster.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Lola, your story is in books I've read, but have never had written
[11:07]	LoLa Varriale:	How do you know so much about me.
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler points the Akashic Record to Lola, as something anyone might read
[11:08]	LoLa Varriale:	YOU? Quite honestly, I wouldn't worry myself about that.
[11:08]	Cummere Mayo:	simon what would it take for LL to pu a higher priority on getting a pg content filter in place? besides 130 votes and an offer to write the code for ll?
[11:08]	Latif Khalifa:	i need to cleanup this clients source and make it available for download
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	lola, cand u describe what happnes when u r sent to an xxx sim
[11:08]	LoLa Varriale:	Does "it" still refer to something?
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	now that would make an intresting story:)
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	I can't tell you some specific event or threshold -- the biggest issue right now is timing, and that doesn't seem something that should delay our next server version
[11:09]	Youri Ashton:	@Rexx: can you send me a copyof the hat? i would love to have it!
[11:10]	Cummere Mayo:	cant you sue the exisiting sever code and jsut impliment the viewer to do exactly opposite what the server flags are designed to do?
[11:10]	Cummere Mayo:	*use
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	I haven't been involved with the public brown bag meetings and forums, but I don't remember this being mentioned earlier as an issue
[11:10]	Johan Laurasia:	heh, dont say sue around Lindens....lol
[11:10]	Cummere Mayo:	nah. already involved in that too johan :-/
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	my hat is on xstreet:)
[11:10]	Youri Ashton:	lol, oki, ill check
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	I don't really know the details of what's involved with the server-side change.
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler drves over Rex's hat, on the street
[11:11]	Cummere Mayo:	from what allot of the programers even an LL one said, there wouldnt need to be any
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	lol. is pointed and sharp so u might loose your tires:)
[11:11]	Youri Ashton:	sorry to cut it short, but i have to bail out aswell
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd think it something t pe cscripted viewer side
[11:12]	Youri Ashton:	thanks for having me :)
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure of that without looking
[11:12]	Cummere Mayo:	allot of programers stated that you should be able to jsut fiddle with the viewer side and set up new filters that use the existing flags, only to do the opposite of the existing filters
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I didn't do the search code, but I know our general region level checks (PG, M or A) are either checking for an equal value or less than a limit
[11:13]	Cummere Mayo:	so ifyou set the viewer to look for the opposite value then it should work right?
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we're looking for a GT:PG?
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	Adding a 'greater than' logic in some places is possible but might make it more complex -- more choices and code paths. This isn't cutting edge, but we're trying to ship
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Speaking of which, we're aiming for a pilot roll at the end of this week for another server update
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa:	1.26.3?
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa:	do you know a list of bugs fixed in it?
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	1.26.3? I think Andrew's in that meeting right now
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Right -- it's on the Aditi beta grid now, but still getting last minute fixes
[11:15]	Latif Khalifa:	does it fix saving of guesture avtivation state?
[11:15]	Latif Khalifa:	activatio
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Question for you folks - what do you think of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4133 ?
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	It involves parcel media behavior -- basically the question comes down to how that should or shouldn't be limited actually to a parcel
[11:16]	Cummere Mayo:	so if your server cod for example is set up with the adult filter to say adult>mature>pg and the filter in place now says if x>pg dont go then cant you jsut add a line of code that makes a new setting that says if x<mature dont go?
[11:16]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, I think not responding to a touch, having to be on an actual parcel to make it work is counter-intuitive
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Right Cummere, that's roughly what the code would be like. But changing the viewer, server and testing isn't going to happen soon enough to make the roll-out
[11:17]	Uni Ninetails goes on a tangent "Be nice to see media associated to a prim not a parcel. *shrugs
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Latif - so parcel media isn't really limited to a parcel, in other words?
[11:17]	Qie Niangao:	oh, no, that agent-based parcel media command ability really should go back to the way it was, I think.
[11:17]	Cummere Mayo:	then roll out needs to be halted because theres a growing lynch mob right now
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't even know, whether videos play across boundaries
[11:18]	Cummere Mayo:	theres a reason i came alone. feelings are VERY high about this
[11:18]	Uni Ninetails:	Wb Andrew
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	where is the lynch mob?
[11:18]	Cummere Mayo:	and as to that issue thats the first ive seen but it seems vERY problematic to me and neds fixed
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	I think media texture should be visible to you even though you are not on that parcel
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	adn wha is about?
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa:	wb andrew
[11:19]	Cummere Mayo:	rex look at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12977
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler might nor might not have an SVC-3660 isue
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yup, I'm back
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Welcome Backj, Andrew
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:19]	Qie Niangao:	The PARCEL_MEDIA_COMMAND_AGENT flavor of llParcelMediaCommandList() made that whole functionality a lot more interesting.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	So the latest plan is to roll a pilot (500 regions or so) of server-1.23.3 on Thursday this week, and finish it on Tues and Wed next.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	That is the plan, anyway.
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	It souds like the correct behaviour was never defined, but I still don't understand that one.
[11:20]	Latif Khalifa:	andrew, do you have a release notes somewhere+
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	whoops, I meant server-1.26.3
[11:21]	Latif Khalifa is annoyed with guestures not saving their active state
[11:21]	Uni Ninetails nods "would like ta read notes on server
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	There will definitely be a server-1.26.4
[11:21]	Qie Niangao:	(Some of what was interesting about it was that a single prim on some parcel could enable anybody in the sim to get served from that one media script.)
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	probably about three weeks later.
[11:21]	Latif Khalifa:	don't know if fix for that made it into .3
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	I think that's the problem with the parcel media behavior - it was never clearly laid out how it should work, and someone reported this one as a bug, but I can see where it would be useful for benign scripters
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	No Latif, I don't have any release notes.
[11:22]	Qie Niangao:	well, i think there's a *related* bug somewhere that actually did get fixed... although I can't remember what it was.
[11:22]	Latif Khalifa:	do you know if guestures not saving their state is fixed?
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Latif, yes that one is fixed.
[11:22]	Latif Khalifa:	cool
[11:22]	Johan Laurasia:	I have a physics question
[11:22]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew if theres going to be a 1.26.4 whens the shipping date, and can you add 10 minutes worth of coding to it?
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	yea!
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Does tat mean our gestures will continue, when we TP?
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Go ahead and ask your question Johan.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler thinks it's five minutes of Coding, but thirty seconds, if you're Andrew
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, the release for server-1.26.4 would be... late May.
[11:24]	Johan Laurasia:	Does LL have any plans for jointed prims in the near future? ala Ninja Physics?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, yes the active gestures bug is fixed in 1.26.3 (even for teleports)
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object Heierarchy?
[11:24]	Latif Khalifa:	if by near you mean in the next couple of years, then no :)
[11:24]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Cummere Mayo
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	No plans for joints right now Johan.
[11:24]	Johan Laurasia:	:(
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	years ago we had some semi-broken joint features
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	we eliminated them in the Havok4 project
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	and haven't been able to get back to that feature
[11:25]	Johan Laurasia:	been playing with it on a local grid I'm running on my pc
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think Object Followers might be a start, but it's going to be a project.
[11:25]	Johan Laurasia:	neat stuff
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I'
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	I'd much rather do the object hierarchy project before jointed objects
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	The first project would make the second much easier.
[11:26]	Johan Laurasia:	object hierarchy?
[11:26]	Cummere Mayo nods
[11:27]	Latif Khalifa:	you mean if you link two linksets, unlinkig it would produce two linksets, and not the individual prims?
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	However, we've got more work to do than I can handle right now.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	yeah Latif, a way to specify hierarchy so that sub collections can be moved/rotated as a unit
[11:27]	Johan Laurasia:	yeah, I figured as much, seems the direction now is less new feature introduction and more work keeping the ship afloat, understandable.
[11:28]	Cummere Mayo:	well except for adding features residents dont want *sighs*
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, I don' t think there is much love for your "adult only" content filter idea within LL. Have you already discussed that project here today?
[11:29]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by samatha Congrejo
[11:29]	Arawn Spitteler wondes how to start a counter campaign, against SVC-2931, SVC-93 or SVC-22
[11:29]	Cummere Mayo:	within LL theres not. within the people that pay money to play SL there is
[11:29]	Johan Laurasia:	I've read alot of ppl complaining about the changes coming, but I personally don't see the problem with it.
[11:29]	Latif Khalifa:	well the new viewer has 3 separate checkboxes
[11:29]	Johan Laurasia:	and I understand the reasoning behind it.
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	only for search latif
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	so at least in the search you would be able to look for adult only
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	and the search is bugged
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	people on pg areas CAN and DO already make mature and adult classifieds
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	well just don't go tp PG sims, that's how it should be done with the adult content too if you ask me
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, search needs work. I heard something about a team to work on search. I think they are trying to build the team.
[11:31]	Twisted Laws:	i'm using 1.23.0 atm, and if you search with PG unchecked it doesn't return the same results as when only mature is checked
[11:31]	Cummere Mayo:	yeah well latif, unfortuneately LL put in this thing that said you cant go to an adult area unless you change the filters and provide lots of unneeded personal info
[11:31]	Latif Khalifa:	search rankings are totally foobar
[11:31]	Qie Niangao:	wait: Arawn, why would you want vehicles to stay broken at sim-crossings into full parcels?
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	i have a question. what happens if all the main grid is down except the AO sims? when i login will i arrive ona adult sim?
[11:31]	Cummere Mayo:	theres more reason for the aility to shift out fo pg areas and block those
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Qie, Arawn is thinking that if he pretends to NOT want it then we will fix it.
[11:32]	Cummere Mayo:	oh and LL insultingly calls anything bdsm adult *growls*
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd want people to demand that vehicles be borked at sim crossings, so the Lindens will fix that one.
[11:32]	Qie Niangao:	ah!
[11:32]	Cummere Mayo:	which only shwos that LL has NO idea what they talk about
[11:32]	Johan Laurasia:	lol
[11:32]	Qie Niangao is irony-deficient today. *blushes*
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	Rex - the login fall-backs are based on your preference settings
[11:32]	Cummere Mayo:	simon those dont work
[11:32]	Johan Laurasia:	how can you not consider BDSM adult?
[11:32]	Latif Khalifa:	Cummere, very few people are happy with the whole adult filtering. It does not mean that lindens should breake the product even more that is already going to be broken
[11:32]	Cummere Mayo:	im set to mature and adult and i STILL got sent to a pg region TODAY
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, could you expand that BSDM acronym for us?
[11:33]	Johan Laurasia:	lol
[11:33]	Uni Ninetails:	XD
[11:33]	Johan Laurasia:	and I think there in lies part of the problem
[11:33]	Qie Niangao checks if the parcel is Adult. :p
[11:33]	Twisted Laws:	to clarify what I said, unchecking PG content reduces the search results to only mature now in 1.23
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Broom Sweeping and Dustpan Mopping
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	u want to ban him for usind adult language:)
[11:33]	Cummere Mayo:	Bondage (which isnt neccisarily sexual) Dominition (again not nessicarily sexual) sadomasachism (again not sexula always) and submission (in and of itself a nonsexual thing)
[11:34]	Johan Laurasia:	yet together, a sexual thing
[11:34]	Cummere Mayo:	less then 5% of bdsm has to do with sex
[11:34]	Johan Laurasia:	net filters filter it out
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	Adult isn't always sexual either
[11:34]	Cummere Mayo:	no johan. sex can be a part of bdsm but bdsm in and of itself isnt sexual
[11:35]	samatha Congrejo:	Here Here Cummere!!!
[11:35]	Cummere Mayo:	i can go to google and do a pg search on bdsm and get millions of hits
[11:35]	Johan Laurasia:	yet those who are not involved in bdsm consider it a sexual thing
[11:35]	Cummere Mayo:	ignroance should not rule the day
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	So, how about them region crossings?
[11:35]	Latif Khalifa:	My only problem with these new changes is that you have to have payment info to visit adult places. If Linden Lab made it user selectable, ie you get a warning when you enter an adult sim and it would let you chose, none of this fuss would happen
[11:36]	Cummere Mayo:	agreed latif. especially since they tend to ask for information thats illegal to ask for (ssn or government employee numbers come to mind)
[11:36]	Cummere Mayo:	they locked out a firned of mine thats a deputy becuase she refused to give them her work id number and personal address
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Northeastern used SSN for the Student ID
[11:37]	Kira Welty:	will there be any LSL or datacenter way to determine an avi's maturity preference?
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	and "mom is sleeping, let me take her dirvers license for a second to verify my account" will not stop any underage user from logging in
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	that's why the new policy is irrational
[11:37]	Cummere Mayo:	not only irrational but legally, LL is better protected not implementing any of this then if they do
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	There's a forum about the verification issue, I believe. The most common method is via payment info, I think
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	mabe u could take an IQ test, and if u r above a specific value than u r considered an adult:)
[11:38]	Uni Ninetails:	lol
[11:38]	Cummere Mayo:	simon tht doesnt do any good when LL locks you out so you cant verify that way
[11:38]	Latif Khalifa:	Rex, many ppl over the age of 18 would fail :P
[11:38]	samatha Congrejo:	Unfortunately i think people far above Simon and Andrew are behind these changes
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler wonders how, given an IQ test, our political leaders could ever examine any adult sites?
[11:38]	Cummere Mayo:	they told bitterly sweet she had to provide her RL name, address, birth year and SSN or Gove Employee number
[11:38]	Johan Laurasia:	agreed samatha, so no point in hammering them about it.
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	and some way below 18 might pass:)
[11:39]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah i know, these guys are implementing the policy, not creating it, so its kind of waste of time to talk about it here :)
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, and IQ doesn't hold much weight in court. The laws of nations usually talk about age.
[11:39]	Latif Khalifa:	write a letter to M Linden :P
[11:39]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew with all these things on place, LL is held mroe responsible if a kid gains acess to an adult aread then ever before
[11:39]	Cummere Mayo:	i can tell you that with certainty
[11:40]	Cummere Mayo:	becuase i help enforce that stuff again
[11:40]	Xaria Mistwallow:	I had the pleasure to meet M Linden not long ago =)
[11:40]	Xaria Mistwallow:	hi all btw :p
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Welcome Back,Xaria
[11:40]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi
[11:40]	Latif Khalifa:	Cummere, you should really direct those policy concerns to other Lindens (not that they will listen lol)
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) but my understanding is that if a kid gets to the adult regions they will have had to intentionally bypassed a number of hurdles to get there
[11:40]	Xaria Mistwallow:	♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	sadly age doesn't always show maturty:(
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Scot, maybe?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	which can be used to show intent that is out of control of LL
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Scott works in Government Relations, and should know a lot of immature people.
[11:41]	Cummere Mayo:	by putting those barriors there though you have said effectively and legally "we at Ll take the resonsibilit of a child being on our network"
[11:41]	Cummere Mayo:	whereas if you left it as a checkmark then you had all the plausible and legal deniability in the world
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect some lawyers might disagree with the wording of that interpretation
[11:41]	samatha Congrejo:	Can we talk about things they can fix?? Like all the texture problems in the sims, and draw problems that have cropped up lately??
[11:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, *all* adult sites on the web are content with "By entering here I confirm that I'm 18+". worked for them since the web begun
[11:42]	Cummere Mayo:	exactly
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	New draw problems?
[11:42]	Johan Laurasia:	right, but LL has expansion of SL to consider, and drawing a definate line between pg and adult is part of that descision to move in that direction
[11:42]	Xaria Mistwallow:	so far i learned past weeks, LL is not even thinking of letting teen grid merge with adult grid, i just dont understand why only now the new polacies going to be there
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	Latif - unfortunately SL doesn't fit the criteria of regular web sites. This has been covered in teh forums
[11:43]	samatha Congrejo:	My interent bandwitdh and test external to sl are constant, but with the new network, texure lading, draw times, way up, cache is waiting forever to get calls, it appears to be on the server side
[11:43]	Johan Laurasia:	WOW doesn't have issues with newbies running around naked with a penis flailing about.
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler ahs a possible issue at MISC-2668 and with sitting, but doesn't know if either is an actual bug, or how to reporduce if they ae.
[11:43]	Trinity Coulter:	Johan, that is because they don't allow user-created content
[11:43]	samatha Congrejo:	sorry for the typing mess, i am sory of drugged up for an infection right now
[11:43]	Trinity Coulter:	its apples and oranges
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	samatha - there were some fixes with the texture pipeline that made downloads faster
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	What is WOW's "time to penis" measure, i wonder.
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I konw of two fixes - one inthe viewer, where it was waiting a long time to ask for the next higher level of detail
[11:44]	Johan Laurasia:	right, and LL is trying to separate it's apples an oranges.
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	TypingMess? I'd just chalk it up to keyboard lag, and let prospero worrry about it in order.
[11:44]	samatha Congrejo:	some fixes coming or already online??
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Another on the sim, where it wasn't sending enough data for a given level of detail
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Those fixes are in the 1.26 server and 1.23 viewer
[11:45]	Qie Niangao:	ee[
[11:45]	Qie Niangao:	texture loading is *awful* on the Nightly Build, at least for me
[11:45]	Kira Welty:	does that incllude the stalled texture downloads?
[11:45]	Trinity Coulter:	LL has no way to designate sexual explicitness on content... how will they really know when an object is rezzed that its "adult" or not
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	There are some cool texture improvements in viewer-1.24 (or whatever they are calling it), so I hear.
[11:45]	Uni Ninetails:	1.23 sims crossing seemed smoother but ressing didnt seem any quicker...
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	yes, the stalls were the viewer side problem
[11:45]	Kira Welty:	or almost 0 cache hits?
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	hmm, not sure about cache hits - is that the viewer cache you mean?
[11:46]	Kira Welty:	yes
[11:46]	Kira Welty:	its basically no-existant
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, haven't heard of that, but it would be good to point it out to viewer folks or file a jira if you can show it
[11:47]	samatha Congrejo:	my test find script performnace went up witht eh latest viewer and draw load and texture loading stayed 50% of what it was before the new network
[11:47]	samatha Congrejo:	sorry latest server
[11:47]	Xaria Mistwallow:	i thought that was taken care of last week
[11:47]	Xaria Mistwallow:	we discussed that same issue at another meeting
[11:47]	Xaria Mistwallow:	with soft linden
[11:48]	Cummere Mayo:	already filed and imported
[11:48]	Xaria Mistwallow:	unless i miss some info here tho :p[
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	"viewer draw load and texture loading stayed 50% of what it was" -- what do you mean by that exactly samantha?
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Are you looking at the simulator stats? Or viewer stats?
[11:48]	samatha Congrejo:	I mean based on test as to what it was before the new netowrk using three sims i tested
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	so...50% of what it was is "good"?
[11:49]	samatha Congrejo:	no meaning 50% slower
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	ok
[11:49]	samatha Congrejo:	before for isntance, you entered a sim, textures and draw loaded.....
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa:	well 1.23 viewer is very broken :P
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	so you're claiming correlation with the "new network". You men the "LLNet" project?
[11:50]	samatha Congrejo:	you tped out, came back 10 minutes later, everything appeared almost immeditatly because you already ahd it all in cache....
[11:50]	samatha Congrejo:	now it reloades everytime
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	LLNet was the elimination of some of our VPN's between colocation facilities, replaced with dedicated fiber (I think)
[11:50]	Latif Khalifa:	samantha that's most probably a viewer issue
[11:50]	Uni Ninetails:	i said at jacks meet somthing in passing about me thinking LL is throttling LLnet and he jumped on it pretty quick which raised an eyebrow for me
[11:50]	samatha Congrejo:	well strange that same viewer, only changes were network and server version
[11:50]	Cummere Mayo:	its a known issue. its currantly the workaround for other issues too
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	It could be viewer, it might be server. The data cache is complicated.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	We could have broken it in the server (just saying it is possible).
[11:51]	Xaria Mistwallow:	1.23 viewer broken? i have no real problems, unless you mean crashing without any idea why. but that happens with all viewers i had except on-rez viewer
[11:52]	Cummere Mayo:	right now the tp out and back is the workaround for the issues with avatars becoming cluds on clothing change and not ever rezzing, for stalled texture loads on objects , etc
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	let me find my 4000 $L skin so you can have a look how it looks
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	i know it makes some of my skins look horribly broken
[11:52]	samatha Congrejo:	it appears to be server to me, the calls to get items in cache are not coming or not coming very quickly
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	look at my face... that's 1.23 for you lol
[11:53]	Cummere Mayo:	1.23 all around sucks
[11:53]	Vista Questi:	hey Andrew! :) I just had one quick question, I forgot when this meeting was.. is it ok to cross sim boundaries with megaprims right now? last time i did this it started lagging the nearby sims, after a few hours.
[11:53]	Uni Ninetails:	ack
[11:53]	Trinity Coulter:	Andrew, Simon... on a physics/sim-related issue... would it be helpful if there was a way to indicate that a sim owner wanted to have a sim be more more static, so it could be pre-loaded, etc
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Uh...
[11:53]	Johan Laurasia:	heh
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Why would you cross with a megaprim?
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Static Sim, like Physics Off?
[11:54]	Vista Questi:	it actuall was an accident, it was of by 1mm
[11:54]	Cummere Mayo:	vista crossing sim boarders with a mega or miro prim is a bad bad idea
[11:54]	Uni Ninetails:	oh well my trudeau j class sailboat is stuffed XD
[11:54]	Trinity Coulter:	i mean more than just that setting tho, Arawn.... physics off would make a sim pretty much unusable.... i mean like WOW is all preloaded and therefore much faster
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	You mean cross with a mega that is attached?
[11:54]	Xaria Mistwallow:	wth do you want to use mega/micro prims anyways? they are not official for no reason o_0
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Trinity - agreed, we've discussed smarter caching viewer-side, and hints from the region about what stuff won't move, but haven't had time to work on it
[11:55]	Trinity Coulter:	:)
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Trinity, if a region were to allow no "dynamic" objects then yes, that will help the simulator's performance.
[11:55]	Vista Questi:	im not sure what u mean by 'attached, in this case it was just a 256x256 that i was using o make an ice texutre on a sim
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	However... scripted objects can put a load on the physics engine too.
[11:55]	Cummere Mayo:	theres legit reasons for megas and micros but wearing or corssing sims in them isnt one of them ><
[11:56]	Uni Ninetails:	Big. Boats.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	So, if you disable scripts and dynamic objects then yes, you should have a much more responsive region.
[11:56]	Vista Questi:	no no, it was for land.. a parcel prim , basically
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	But... I wonder how many people would do that to their region.
[11:56]	Trinity Coulter:	wouldn't that prevent avies from moving?
[11:56]	Vista Questi:	since we have those 65k ones for skies and such i wondered why that could work and not my ... mistake. :)
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	You can't totally stop physics, or AVs would stop too
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	But you can block physical objects
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Stopping avatars from moving would be overboard for the point I was trying to make.
[11:57]	Johan Laurasia:	heh
[11:57]	Johan Laurasia:	my long awaited dream of running SL via an iphone has come to fruision!
[11:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heh. Block physics and scripts and sims just become a proxy. ;-)
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler imagines running an iPhone on Cold Fuision
[11:58]	Vista Questi:	i see! I think i understand now. ... vertical ok, but don't cross boundaries.. well that clears that up for me. , for now. :)
[11:58]	Cummere Mayo shrugs "dont give the customers what they want the sims jsut sit empty >.>
[11:58]	Qie Niangao:	So, speaking of scripts and sim performance: been a few reports of huge script-time overruns--way beyond 22.2ms frame target--can that be a symptom of memory thrashing caused by a different sim on the same server? (Kinda a non-intuitive meaning of "script time" but... haven't found any other explanations on the sim itself)
[11:58]	Xaria Mistwallow:	why you want to use it on iphone? the iphone was not even made to do things like SL in the first place
[11:58]	Trinity Coulter:	how about selling the inverse of a void sim... maybe a sim that runs on a full server but is 1/4 the parcel size
[11:59]	Cummere Mayo:	xaria sure it was
[11:59]	Xaria Mistwallow:	you know you have lag on regular pc, how do you think on iphone will do?
[11:59]	Johan Laurasia:	well, I'm using VNC to remote into my pc, nice to be able t log on and chat with the full viewer.
[11:59]	Latif Khalifa:	I have seen "simulation time" going into seconds lol
[11:59]	Vista Questi:	some folks just can't stand to be away from the world no matter where they are, that's why! ^_^
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Vista, creating big megas in the physics engine is probably fairly expensive -- lots of collision data structures collapse because of the big bounding box of the mega.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Qie - it _might_ be due to some other region starving resources on that server, not sure
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	We're not working too hard right now as expanding support of megaprims. Best to stay away from them.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	If they get into memory starvation, it all slows down pretty bad
[12:00]	Xaria Mistwallow:	currently hardware is slower then software, take that in account
[12:00]	Qie Niangao:	Simon, who would know the details of how "script time" is measured? Babbage?
[12:00]	Latif Khalifa:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2329
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	He or myself. I did some of the metrics work, Babbage knows the language innards
[12:00]	Vista Questi:	im all abou not making lag, if i ever need to do that again I at least know to look and make sure it's ok. i have no need to cross boundaries, it wasn't intentional in the last case. :)
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	harware can't be slower than software:)
[12:01]	Xaria Mistwallow:	lol, it is atm
[12:01]	Latif Khalifa:	there are some resource leaks in the sim that kill some regions in a couple of days
[12:01]	Xaria Mistwallow:	the new software is faster then the hardwars currently can take
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	sorry but sofware can't run faster than the hardwae thatis on:
[12:01]	Qie Niangao:	ah, okay, then thanks, Simon. (I was always thinking script time would be like actual CPU time spent by the scripts... which should be *low* if there's paging... but it could mean something very different from CPU time)
[12:01]	Cummere Mayo:	which jsut means the softarew slows down
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wonder if anyone's tried using CUDA in the viewer ... just to confuse the hardware/software debate :-)
[12:02]	Cummere Mayo:	its physically impossible to run software faster then the hardware
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	It's time spent in the frame from when it starts running scripts and when it ends
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to go -- I've got another meeting (internal bug triage) that starts now.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, can you send me a copy of the transcripts?
[12:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	GL Andrew :-)
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	So if some other process steals all the CPU time, it can be large even though the region didn't get much actual CPU time
[12:02]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Andrew
[12:02]	Uni Ninetails:	Bai Andrew
[12:02]	Johan Laurasia:	Nice to see you again Andrew
[12:02]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew can you please ask peopel to relook at the filters?
[12:02]	Vista Questi:	meetings.. i hate meetings... except for this one of course. :D
[12:02]	Xaria Mistwallow:	thanks for the meeting simon and andrew :)
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:02]	Qie Niangao:	ah, thanks Simon... so it can get "hung-up" waiting for resources. Thanks again.
[12:02]	Cummere Mayo:	theres now 140 votes
[12:02]	Xaria Mistwallow:	even if it was short for me :)
[12:02]	Vista Questi:	thx andrew., and tt!
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't worry too much, about te intenal bugs
[12:02]	Qie Niangao:	bye Andrew, and thanks.
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming and your, hmm, passion for SL features :)
[12:03]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe