User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 03 09

Transcript

[10:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[10:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heya Andrew
[10:59]	Erinyse Planer:	okay its sad when i can figure otu the issue after stumping the support folks... -_-
[10:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh? What was the issue?
[10:59]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[10:59]	Kaluura Boa:	* PUUURRRRZZZZ *
[11:00]	Cerdita Piek:	hi everyone
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Cummere Mayo:	ive got a very corrupt file. ill have to reinstall later. but none of my preferences are saving
[11:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi andrew
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	Hello. I'm on time for once.
[11:00]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[11:00]	Cummere Mayo	dies of shock
[11:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Lots of open bugs on viewer 2.0 not saving preferences.
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Good to have you Andrew.
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh, has anyone files a JIRA on how you can't change permissions on objects in inventory yet? :
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	filed*
[11:01]	Opensource Obscure:	techwolf, would you share the links?
[11:01]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew which of my toons you want me stay on and which you want me to log out?
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere... toons? I don't understand.
[11:02]	Cummere Mayo:	ive got both erinyse and cummere logged in. seesma lil redundant
[11:02]	Cummere Mayo:	*seems a
[11:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&query=preferences&summary=true&description=true&pid=10003&version=10590
[11:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	for the one that ask for the link
[11:02]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Well Cummere, since you're asking I wouldn't ask you to logout.
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	but keep them both here and have a conversation ;-)
[11:03]	Cummere Mayo:	:) with myself? lol -_-
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Simon
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:04]	Cummere Mayo:	hi simon :)
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	greetings
[11:04]	Patty1 Rosca:	hello everyone
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Announcements... althought I'm done working on teleport bugs for a while I haven't yet started working on region crossing bugs yet.
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I'm just doing some paperwork on misc issues that have fallen on my plate. Maybe before the end of this week.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	We recently tried to assign "owners" to various chunks of our server system
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew are any of them to do with no way to click on a object that has a alpha texture on it ?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	and we had a few chunks that used to belong to LL devs who have since left
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	That was a game of 'hot potato' :)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	so I ended up with the server-side of SL map generation
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	lol simon
[11:07]	Patty1 Rosca	♡ ´¯`•.¸¸.dies laughing´¯`•.¸¸.♡
[11:07]	Erinyse Planer:	(the bad twin) So howed you manage to get out of it simon
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know much about how that system works, but if you have any complaints about the server side of that, well it is now fair game here at these hours.
[11:07]	Skills Hak:	hey
[11:07]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, I thought that was Merov's work.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, Don Linden had the map system, but didn't want it.
[11:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Why was it dumped for viewer 2.0? I can't tell if a sim is down or not.
[11:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Or removed
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Merov did some work on it fairly recently, in particular the viewer-side of the map
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	however, when he did that work James Linden did the server-side stuff.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I'm going to be haunted by the back end system that supports Linden Homes for a while :)
[11:08]	Cummere Mayo:	with all the nice stuff for viwer 1.0 in snowglobe, im sad to see the maps removed in 2.0 not so good
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'll be inheriting it from James.
[11:08]	jjccc Coronet:	is there any chance of linden labs introducing live cam into the viewer like on tiny chat http://tinychat.com/jjccc
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	you can do that with prim media now
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	It's actually a good thing ... we know who to chase to track down issues, and there's more ownership of the various parts
[11:09]	Cummere Mayo:	i'd like to never se live cam added. this would become primarily a sex cam forum
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	so what bits are yours Andrew?
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	jjccc, I doubt that we'll have that live cam feature -- no plans that I know of
[11:10]	jjccc Coronet:	i have had 2000 ppl in my cam room since last night its not a sex room
[11:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Latif, the male bit I hope. ;-)
[11:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	+s
[11:10]	Erinyse Planer:	hmmm noticed i cant buy alinden home if youre at the top edge of a tier level simon. any plans to fix it so if yorue a priemium member you cna get one and just have it jump you to next tier level?
[11:10]	Eddi Decosta:	Hi! ㋡
[11:11]	Latif Khalifa:	haha, i meant what part of the server code are belong to andrew
[11:11]	Opensource Obscure:	however, if we got even more detailed and updated sim images, that could be an interesting tool. not a realtime TV, but something
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Latif, the servers generate the image tiles used in the map
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	how can u see and hear 2000 cams at one time?
[11:11]	jjccc Coronet:	http://tinychat.com/jjccc
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	the tiles live on some http servers now, and are stiched together by some backend servers for the higher view (lower level of detail (LOD))
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	but I think the new tiles are only generated once every 24 hours
[11:12]	jjccc Coronet:	clk ther link to see and join in
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	is havok7 still en route for 1.40?
[11:12]	Opensource Obscure:	i confirm 24 hours in my experience. i'm doing animated gifs of my sim
[11:12]	Opensource Obscure:	1frame/day
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Latif. It is still undergoing testing.
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	so we can see at as early as may the :)
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	then
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I think so. I don't think there have been any serious problems with Havok7 yet.
[11:13]	Techwolf Lupindo:	There is one major bug with that new mapping system. aditi is totally incorrect maps.
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	There were a few problems, but Falcon fixed them pretty fast.
[11:13]	Eddi Decosta:	hi all, sorry for my interupt ㋡
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:13]	Cummere Mayo:	give the ccs ans warps people time andrew... they will break it if it can be broken
[11:13]	Eddi Decosta:	and wb for some poeeple lol
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa:	babbage mentioned something about using a new malloc that will allow you to better understand what memory sim uses/leaks and where. how is that going?
[11:14]	Erinyse Planer:	*pokes simon*
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	The new malloc is actually google perftools tcmalloc, I think
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	we used to use tcmalloc and then lost it during the Havok4 and 64bit upgrade
[11:14]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	There's still stuff floating around with pre-Havok4 scripts for movement. It makes life more interesting than it needs to be.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	then we went back to 32 bits and didn't recover it
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	babbage has made it work again so we'll be trying it out
[11:15]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew when will 64 bit be put back in ?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure where that tcmalloc work was done, do you know Simon? 1.36? 1.38? or 1.40?
[11:15]	Latif Khalifa:	i have a feeling that there are big problems with resource leaks, since the sim freeze issue seem to get worse with the uptime. but we will see if 1.38 brings any improvement to it
[11:16]	Chaley May:	they said on the cam that we all look like noobs :(
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know of any major fixes in 1.38 that would address that, however there is more performance work coming down the pipeline
[11:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	32-bit limits you to 4G of ram without PAE. If you are configureing server with 4G or less ram, then running 32-bit can gain a slight performace gain vs. 64-bit
[11:17]	Skills Hak:	the mono freezes are supposed to be fixed in 1.38
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	We've got better performance timers and instrumentation that will be in server-1.38, and more in 1.40.
[11:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	But only if kerenl is compiled without PAE.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	That will allow us to perform better measurement to see where the performance bottlenecks and problems are.
[11:17]	Latif Khalifa:	Tech, sim servers are very limited with ram. and 64 bits binaries use much more ram. Anyway a sim is not supposed to use more than 800mb ;)
[11:17]	xstorm Radek:	if we can get 64 bit to work it will be the right steps and even 32 bit will work on a 64 bit system
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, quick odd question, what is the equation for link distance limit?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon has been instrumenting Havok7 with much better performance and memory measurement.
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	but 64 bit systems work better
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	xstorm, nonsense
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	thats like saying a 16 bit system is better then a 32 bit system
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	for a 16 bit system works faster
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, the formula is something like... 2 * (radiusA + RadiusB) + min_link_distance
[11:19]	Skills Hak:	the servers are 64bit hardware anyway
[11:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	...2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of compitation.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	where min_link_distance is... 2 meters?
[11:19]	xstorm Radek:	and we are not even using the 64 bit hardware at all
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... no that doesn't sound right. I forget the formula. I'll have to check
[11:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All righty
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	the formula is now about the "span diameter" of the bounding sphere
[11:20]	Vista Questi:	i think it's 2m+3x the bounding box, up to 54m
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	dunno when we'll attempt 64 bit again
[11:20]	Vista Questi:	from memory, i should have peeked at the wiki! ^_^
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	lol may be when the 128 bit is out lol
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	the reason we abandoned it was that our simulator processes were already pushing into big memory footprints
[11:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I remember there was bug about that. Where is the prim is samll enought, you couldn't link it no matter what.
[11:21]	Michelle Leckrone:	That wouldn't surprise me
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	and 64bit would actually add about 10-20% more memory footprint
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	so we couldn't make the sudden switch to 64bits
[11:22]	xstorm Radek:	and thats why when working with any type of 3D world one must set it so the user cam will only see just so far
[11:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	But gain a huge performace due to lot more CPU registers.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	what we need to do is clean up the simulator a little bit first, then try 64bit again
[11:22]	Latif Khalifa:	do you guys have anything to do with the specs of the hardware used. i've noticed that mainland got extra laggy recently just to discover that it uses new cass 7 servers with i7 and 8 sims per machine
[11:22]	xstorm Radek:	and not load it self with all the data for other sims too
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	yes, some performance gains to be had with 64bit
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	trating i7 with hyperthreading as 8 core box is... being optimistic :P
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	treating*
[11:23]	Michelle Leckrone:	So how about the viewer ?
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	latif, I wasn't involved personally with the class-7 hardware and resource allocation there
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	some LL dev's were involved yes. I'm not sure what tradeoffs or decisions were made there
[11:24]	xstorm kisses	Vista's Nose.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	we had a problem where we were crashing on hardware7, and it was fixed by recompiling the linux kernel or something
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	I was surprised they put 8 regions on there too ... I thought it was going to be 7, which at least leaves one CPU for system tasks
[11:25]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	I'd heard about there being more regions to a box, and it was a bit scary. Didn't realsie it was more powerful boxes. Where was it announced?
[11:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I don't know if it changed, but I remember AMD was better at muliticore/CPU performace due to better I/O between the cores then Intel.
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	there are only 4 real cores in i7
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	hyperthreading is a hack that reduces hardware stability greatly and most server uses disable it
[11:25]	Ardy Lay:	Are you sure they use i7?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	let me go see what the class-7 hardware looks like...
[11:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Irun on an i7 using hyperthreading, and honestly I haven't had any stability issues.
[11:26]	Latif Khalifa	head something about i7 and 8ggs of ram
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	I think that's right, they have lots of RAM
[11:26]	Erinyse Planer:	simon since youre alive again is it okay if i repeat my question here or you wnat me to pm it?
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I remember when Intel started that hyperthreading stuff. Fake a second core with a single core chip. Performace was only slight better and on program optimised for hyperthreading. But then drop when got to two cores and two cores did better then the hyperthreading single one.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	looks like 8 real cores, Xeon @ 2.4GHz, with 23GB RAM
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Seb, highly multi-threaded apps like mysql are much more unstable with HT enabled. I read something even on the Linden tech blog about disabling HT on their server
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, oh that's awesome setup then
[11:28]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, on an i7 system, the computer will report 8 cores, even though it only has 4.
[11:28]	Cummere Mayo:	can i buy one of those servers >.>
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	if its 8 real cores
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I believe these are dual-CPU quad-core
[11:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	cat /proc/cpuinfo
[11:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ahh
[11:29]	Latif Khalifa:	nice with all that ram finally
[11:29]	Latif Khalifa:	class5 really get chocked with 4 gigs
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I need to check, but is there any dual-AMD64 cpu borads out there? Last time I checked, there was only mulit-CPU optrion, $$$$.
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	We're on a class 7 here
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	Only 6 people on other regions, however. 3 are totally empty
[11:30]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Still seemed to take a long time for me to download textures...
[11:30]	Erinyse Planer	gives techwolf and moragain'es souls for one of the class 7 machines.....
[11:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, would it be possible for me to converse with you via email about something?
[11:31]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Ever sence the emergisity rollout, the sims are very slow to transfer textrues.
[11:31]	Ardy Lay:	Ya want one got to http://www.siliconmechanics.com/ and configure one then order it.
[11:31]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot	makes a not to buy a lottery ticket.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, you can send me email. If it is something I can answer I'll reply.
[11:32]	jjccc Coronet:	i just heard the viewer is 32 bit not 64 bit what is the date this major issue is to be rectified
[11:32]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	When people like me can afford 64-bit machines at home.
[11:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	When XP use drops to below 5%
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[11:33]	jjccc Coronet:	not a satifactory answer
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's concerning llSetObjectScale - I've spoken with both Kelly and Babbage, but as I get deeper into forming a scaling script with llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast/llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, I'm finding more and more issues with using that as a solution. I wanted to discuss that with you, but I've spoken about it so much I didn't want to take up time at OH again over it.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Well, we should offer a 64-bit version of the viewer I would think.
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	i hate to tell you kids this but no company supports XP any more
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno why we haven't done so already. Probably just because everyone who would do it is too busy.
[11:34]	xstorm Radek:	and now you can buy a 64 bit system for as low as $300
[11:34]	jjccc Coronet:	hippo client is 64 bit i can get 170 fps on that viewer
[11:34]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	My bank still says it supports Netscapoe Navigator for internet banking. There's a lot of resistance to change
[11:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Two major blockers for a 64-bit SL client, the boost lib needs upgraded as 2008 can't handle the current code and therefore LL is still using 2005 that can only do 32-bit
[11:34]	Latif Khalifa:	32 bit viewer works perfectly fine on 64 bit os. and i don't want it to use more than 4gigs of ram lol
[11:35]	jjccc Coronet:	get over it
[11:35]	xstorm Radek:	and if SL viewer is not going to be 64bit many people will find a better viewer that will be 64bit
[11:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	But on linux, 64-bit is easy and i've been running it for the past year and half.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	the 64bit question is an interesting one. I'll ask one of the viewer devs about it later.
[11:36]	Bronson Blackadder:	omg people... you are sound like you're comparing private parts at eh urinal
[11:36]	Michelle Leckrone:	64 bit is good for video editing And filming in sl
[11:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh, and the QA process. They ahve to double the QA due to having now two viewer to support.
[11:36]	Bronson Blackadder:	my bit bigger
[11:36]	Bronson Blackadder:	64 bits even
[11:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh pooh I only have 32
[11:37]	Ardy Lay:	I don't wanna see xstorm's 128 bit
[11:37]	jjccc Coronet:	i run mutiple clents fire fox auto cad plus loads of other progs on multiple screens 64 bit is essential
[11:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[11:37]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	For you.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	We aren't realy supporting the old viewer-1.23 -- no active development being done there. So we only have snowglobe and Viewer-2.0
[11:37]	jjccc Coronet:	for everyone
[11:37]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I have 8G RAM. Nice to run without swap.
[11:38]	Michelle Leckrone:	i like snowglobe
[11:38]	Erinyse Planer:	is viewer 2.0 gonan get the minimap back? or is it hidden somewhere i cant find it?
[11:38]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah me too, loads of ram is nice
[11:38]	Michelle Leckrone:	good for filming
[11:38]	Latif Khalifa:	Erin: ctrl-shift-m
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	Yep, it's there
[11:38]	Erinyse Planer:	and yeha i like snowglobe. can run 4 of the 1.3 version at once
[11:39]	Erinyse Planer:	thanks latif
[11:39]	jjccc Coronet:	is new viwer going to get two camerea view circles like old viewer
[11:39]	jjccc Coronet:	yes or no
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	I'm pretty much clueless about viewer 2 features, so can't help with details
[11:39]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think someone found a hack to do that to viewer 2.0 allready
[11:39]	Cummere Mayo:	control shift m right? for viewer 2.0 minimap?
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	yes, that's working for me
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	jjccc, Simon and I work mostly on the server backend.
[11:40]	Latif Khalifa:	I have a question regarding CAPs. Some time ago baked texture upload cap was disabled. Any idea if the problem it was causing was fixed and will that CAP be enabled?
[11:40]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Same as 1.23
[11:40]	Cummere Mayo:	its bringing up my world map -_- *kicks her buggy version*
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	We have access to the viewer developers, but are not involved in most of the decisions going on around the viewer project.
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	There's a menu command too under World
[11:40]	jjccc Coronet:	i like what you have done to stop me from crashing so much
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	llTextBox(), has that been fixed?
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No Tech
[11:41]	Cummere Mayo:	lol telling it to open the world map enabled the mini.... I think its time for me to reinstall
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It still isn't in the viewer.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	what is the jira for llTextBox() ?
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	But, that's a viewer-side issue.
[11:41]	Latif Khalifa:	it's a viewer bug
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	oh
[11:42]	Latif Khalifa:	server part of it works fine
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-392
[11:42]	llTextBox in	client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	i have to go fix a build problem with alphas
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	laterz every one
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The JIRA has been there (recently moved to SNOW) for over a year.
[11:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-392
[11:42]	llTextBox in	client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	tc xstorm
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Weird, the meeter doesn't usually repeat recently posted JIRAs.
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-392
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Huh
[11:42]	llTextBox in	client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I thought it was coded to avoid that.
[11:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	snow-392
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh well
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	Did the SNOW) make it happen?
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	guess not
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No, it didn't Simon.
[11:43]	Cummere Mayo:	i think it only repeats on link
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And I personally pushed for it at Opensource meetings, Nyx's OH, and Snowglobe OH.
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Several months ago actually.
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	1.3 of snowglobe was just about to roll out.
[11:44]	Eddi Decosta:	qestion do you think this jira could be moved on viewer 2.0 with the new system of notification?
[11:45]	Eddi Decosta:	honestly, i dont think so
[11:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Frankly Eddi, I was disappointed it had already been left out of 2.0 - you'd think with a new viewer, they would have put it in. But again, this is a viewer side issue; server side is just fine
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	They've been pretty strict about not adding new features that weren't a part of the new UI design to viewer 2.0 ... now there's a big backlog of other stuff to do
[11:46]	Eddi Decosta:	Simon, yeah but some feature are existing, but oerwrite with the 2.0
[11:47]	Cummere Mayo:	I need to go now guys. simon you mind if i just log here?
[11:47]	Eddi Decosta:	like that flycam button fixes on 1.23
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Sure, hang out / do whatever you want here
[11:47]	Cummere Mayo:	thanks everyone. especially andrew and simon :)
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	see you later
[11:47]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	I get the feeling that Viewer 2 have been warping the whole system.
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Bye
[11:47]	Eddi Decosta:	well, thanks! ㋡
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	It's been somewhat disruptive, but the viewer had reached the point where incremental changes weren't going to really fix it
[11:48]	jjccc Coronet:	come on cam http://tinychat.com/jjccc
[11:49]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	All that fuss over the server upgrade, and then viewer 2. It was all a bit confusing. What to blame for which fault.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	We have server upgrades every two months or so
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	and the legacy viewer 1.23 isn't excluded yet -- I'm using it now
[11:51]	Eddi Decosta:	oh nice
[11:51]	Kaluura Boa:	Whaaaat? You're not on viewer 2.0?
[11:51]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Must be Emerald misidentifying, then.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I tried it out for these office hours but was not liking the chat history UI
[11:51]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew, to be honestly with you i have this last release
[11:52]	Eddi Decosta:	hate*
[11:52]	jjccc Coronet:	why cant LL make one dcsent viewer that works for everyone
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I hear there are a bunch of config changes that can be made to make viewer-2.0 more friendly
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I switched the chat to use the smallest font and it's pretty good
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That's like baking cookies everyone likes. Not everyone likes chocolate.
[11:52]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew ; im agree but when i crash all 5 minutes on bad stuff ..
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	However, I grant there are some pretty serious issues with this one, heh.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, one viewer that everyone loves is kinda impossible
[11:53]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	There's quite a lot of good stuff in Viewer 2, but I think the UI sucks, and I already have a web browser, loaded with security features I can trust.
[11:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Nonetheless, I think it is possible to make a viewer flexible enough that it suits multiple needs.
[11:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Flexibiilty is where 2.0 kinda failed.
[11:53]	Eddi Decosta:	do you know if ll can add the skin tab in next?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	I agree that it is possible in theory. In practice it takes a lot of work.
[11:54]	Eddi Decosta:	wep, i think the 2.0 are very good on laptop with 16' of screen
[11:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	WEll, I recognize it does take a lot of work, but they -did- spend a eyar on it after all.
[11:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	year*
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	To be frank, it's "liveable" for me, with some of the changes they've implemented. I just hope they give the experienced users some more flexible options for its use and layout.
[11:55]	Ardy Lay:	Only 810 open issues against Viewer 2.0. :-)
[11:55]	Vista Questi:	i would like to see an sl viewer that supports tearoffs into multiple monitors.. that and also exportable megas.. just a wish list. I'm Very happy with emerald, mostl. <G>
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	what is an "exportable mega" ?
[11:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I have to use the viewer that my customers are going to be most familiar with. I used to use Emerald, but with 2.0 being so different, I've had to change that practice.
[11:57]	Vista Questi:	well.. .with meerkat i coould exdport content (including megaprims)
[11:57]	Vista Questi:	to my own sandbox or whatever.. which was GREAT
[11:57]	Vista Questi:	but now, with emerald, i cannot , because it delcares im not the creator of the mega , which is true
[11:58]	Vista Questi:	however, with all content rights respected.. it's only a prim, right?
[11:58]	Vista Questi:	so why not be able to do that?
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	ah, a "mega" is a "snapshot" of the content in the region?
[11:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	In b4 tpv mention.
[11:58]	Vista Questi:	sorry, should have been clearer.. by mega I meant megaprims
[11:59]	Latif Khalifa:	http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php bans expors of stuff where you are not creator unfortunatelly. one of the many silly things in that thing
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	this late in the office hour I can't get started on megaprims
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	or IP issues :)
[11:59]	Eddi Decosta:	well, just one question Andrew to be clear, the mega prims are legal or not?
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Vista Questi:	no worries.. until next time then. ^_^
[12:00]	Latif Khalifa:	no one here can be a creator of a megaprim, so no exports
[12:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They're "allowed" but they aren't officially supported.
[12:00]	Kaluura Boa:	Moe seriously, when will the stupid 10m limit be lifted?
[12:00]	Kaluura Boa:	More*
[12:00]	Eddi Decosta:	cause the 20x20x.5 inexeple dont cause the lag on the region
[12:00]	Latif Khalifa:	but that thing is just silly. it micro-manages everything. like in order to be allowed to connect to SL you must display version information on the login screen xD
[12:00]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Seems to me you couldn't import either.
[12:00]	Eddi Decosta:	in exemple*
[12:01]	Vista Questi	clamps his muzzle tightly and chooses a smile instead. ;)
[12:01]	Latif Khalifa:	how silly is the mandate of what should be on the login screen lol
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	See? End of office hours ;-). I've got another meeting that starts now.
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[12:01]	Vista Questi:	hee hee
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Flee Andrew, Flee!
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you for office hours, Andrew/Simon
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:01]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Andrew and Simon, and thanks fr your time :)
[12:01]	Vista Questi:	make the next one longer than! we could do thisfo-ever! lol
[12:01]	Cerdita Piek:	Thank you Andrew, Simon. Take care :)
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming ... I'm going to run away too :)
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	On 2.0 there are aspects of it I actually like. I'd just prefer it more flexible.
[12:02]	Vista Questi:	Yip!
[12:02]	Eddi Decosta	give a coffee cup to andrew!
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	See you next time
[12:02]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Latif, there's a lot of odd stuff you can blame on lawyers.
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Flying after standing, is not one of them :P

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