User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 11

Transcript

[15:57]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[15:57]	Sindra Aquila:	hello
[15:57]	Roland Riddler:	Hello ツ
[15:57]	Roland Riddler:	hi moundsa
[15:58]	Moundsa Mayo:	oops
[15:58]	Rex Cronon:	what is going on with all thse chairs?
[15:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	you broke it.
[15:58]	Opensource Obscure:	YOU BROKE MY CHAIR REX
[15:58]	Moundsa Mayo:	You buy it!
[15:59]	Rex Cronon:	i did what?
[15:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This is Blue Linden chair.
[15:59]	Opensource Obscure:	nothing. joking. i love delinking linked stuff and making it physic
[15:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The huge one he has in his place that OH is held.
[15:59]	Opensource Obscure:	hopefully after making it temp as well
[16:00]	Rex Cronon:	lol
[16:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[16:00]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:00]	Roland Riddler:	Hello ツ
[16:00]	Opensource Obscure:	hey there Simon - and everybody btw
[16:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hello survidor
[16:00]	Simon Linden:	oooh, new chairs :)
[16:00]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yah, allo all
[16:00]	xstorm Radek:	hi Simon long time no see
[16:00]	Dahlia Trimble:	hi :)
[16:00]	Bronson Blackadder:	simon has boobs
[16:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[16:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Simon, these are Blue Linden chairs.
[16:01]	Moundsa Mayo:	Simon's been a regular at Server Beta OH B^)
[16:01]	Rex Cronon:	plastic surgery:)
[16:01]	Simon Linden:	not that there's anything wrong with that
[16:01]	xstorm Radek:	Simon got a very bad problem with Viewer 2.02
[16:01]	Simon Linden:	the script window?
[16:01]	xstorm Radek:	image flash can crash it
[16:02]	xstorm Radek:	taking a screen scot can crash it
[16:02]	xstorm Radek:	turning to fast can crash it
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	ah, a different one. I'm not close to the viewer team, so doing the usual jira is the way to go
[16:02]	xstorm Radek:	inventory can crash it
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	It's definitely buggy ... if you open a script, the line formatting is totally borked
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	xstorm. u tried, now switch back to a viewer that doesn't crash u:)
[16:02]	xstorm Radek:	yes script is broken
[16:03]	Kaluura Boa:	I wanted to look but I think I won't after all...
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	OK, let's see, announcements:
[16:03]	xstorm Radek:	sorry i have to test it lol
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	Server 1.40 has been on the beta grid, aditi
[16:03]	xstorm Radek:	:-) wow Server 1.40 thats sounds great
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	Current plan is to start the pilot roll next Wednesday, I think. However, Falcon discovered a crash today so I'm not sure if that will affect it or not
[16:04]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon is the god of finding crashes
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	So, in short, we're at the end game but I think there are a few more things to fix up
[16:05]	xstorm Radek:	so do tell us Simon about what is it like :-)
[16:05]	Simon Linden:	I think a lot of you come to the beta office hours on Thursdays, which are the best place to get updates on the exact details
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	oh ok
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	thats one the great beta grid Aditi ?
[16:07]	Simon Linden:	yes
[16:07]	Memorial Dae:	Hi Falcon
[16:07]	xstorm Radek:	And tell us how do people get to test on it :-)
[16:07]	Simon Linden:	The viewer has the 2.0.2 alpha out, which is buggy
[16:07]	Beyond Baroque:	Eeeep! Squished by Falcon.
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	Has some good improvements : the sidebar can be set to not move the world around, which I really like
[16:08]	xstorm Radek:	OMG!! hi Boss Falcon :-)
[16:08]	Rex Cronon:	greetings
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	Supposedly some performance improvements
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Okay, where the heck is the free chair
[16:08]	Opensource Obscure:	I'm enjoying the new sidebar behaviour right now. feels good
[16:08]	Memorial Dae:	There you go
[16:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	At Blue Linden place.
[16:08]	xstorm Radek:	give it time
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	:-P
[16:09]	Memorial Dae:	hahaa good one
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	Whew, finally
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	... and some of us are hoping to look at that kind of slow rezzing / display problem soon
[16:09]	xstorm Radek:	oh Falcon thing i found another hickup not very big its to do with collition timing
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	Simon: Can I be as negative with these folks as I am with the private beta testers? ;)
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	whoops, did I say that out loud? :-P
[16:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, we can take it
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	aqnd we will misquaote everything you say
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	In that case, what have I got to lose?
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	im trying to get people on the test server lol
[16:10]	Memorial Dae:	Exactly
[16:10]	Roland Riddler:	o.O
[16:10]	Simon Linden:	Well, I am going to send the transcript to Andrew, and he theoretically will post it
[16:10]	Memorial Dae:	hahaa
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Oh, then, uh....xstorm, good sir, kindly describe the problem if you will!
[16:11]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Falcon, can't be any worlse then black wesndayh.
[16:11]	xstorm Radek:	gee thanks Simon :-S
[16:11]	Simon Linden:	But an update on prim edges and collisions would be nice
[16:11]
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Yeah, so, about those prim edges and collisions. I've found a fix that works in all the common cases except when a non-convex shape collides with an edge. My solution? Tell all of you not use non-convex shapes!
[16:12]	lonetorus Habilis:	hey wait a second, where did you hide andrew?
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	*whipes hands* solved and solved.
[16:12]	Memorial Dae:	Sounds like a plan
[16:12]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	Simon, in your log, could you fix my spelling of "whipe"? :)
[16:12]	xstorm Radek:	no no no no Falcon
[16:12]	Memorial Dae:	...no leave it! :)
[16:12]	Simon Linden:	Andrew is safe and sound, taking the day off
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	And remove my comment about the spelling and this comment about the comment about the spelling? :)
[16:13]	Rex Cronon:	there is no "editing", falcon:)
[16:13]	Opensource Obscure:	heh
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	I do still need to stress test the new fix to make sure it can't lead to grief modes
[16:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	we all have copies of what you say
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	but it should be good
[16:13]	Simon Linden:	sure, send me any statements you want recorded for the lawyers :)
[16:13]	xstorm Radek:	if i have to i will keep messing with the nasty ball of doom till i think of some thing
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	You all have lies! Lies!
[16:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	try erasing it from my brain, i dare you
[16:13]	Roland Riddler:	lol
[16:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	heheh
[16:14]	Simon Linden:	This will all be pushed out right after my fix for SVC-22
[16:14]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:14]	JB Hancroft:	someone get a little too much caffeine already, today?
[16:14]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon may i show then 2 types of nastys ;-)
[16:14]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	2 x 1L press pot coffe too much?
[16:14]	Memorial Dae:	...as long as they do not include Vegas
[16:14]	Falcon Linden:	xstorm: I'd really rather not know about them, but if you must, you must :-P
[16:14]	JB Hancroft:	lonetorus... you didn't mention the "time factor"... per hour?
[16:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	ah, within last 3 hours
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Is Falcon our sit-in for Andrew today?
[16:15]	xstorm Radek:	Simon will kill me ;-)
[16:15]	Falcon Linden:	Sebastean: I am no one's understudy
[16:15]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver	steals the seat next to Falcon.
[16:15]	xstorm Radek:	hi Sebastean
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Xstorm, all
[16:16]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	falcon, how large will the performance gain be with H7 ?
[16:16]	Simon Linden:	So trying to find a bright side on the recent changes here, there seems to be more emphasis on performance when the execs are talking about what we should be working on
[16:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	seb, i dont think you can actually take the seat
[16:16]	xstorm Radek:	oh that reminds me i was given more griefer items i need to get on Aditi for testing
[16:16]	Simon Linden:	No promises, but I like that part of what I'm hearing
[16:16]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: I'd prefer not to give specific numbers, but in some circumstances, considerably
[16:17]	xstorm Radek:	i hope Oskar can do it
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	(And in others, not at all, yay!)
[16:17]	Opensource Obscure:	may you go in details about which ones circums...tances=
[16:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	lacon, suppose it also differs from region to region, so you dont have soem average numbers?
[16:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	falcon
[16:17]	JB Hancroft:	more information is helpful
[16:18]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon do not use Second Life 2.0.2 (205799) Jun 7 2010 12:13:36 (Second Life Beta Viewer)
[16:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	(im trying to decide if i should just clean up my script on the sim, or if i can wait for h7 to give me a bit more headroom)) ;)
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	You should clean up the script
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	The increased performance does NOT excuse sloppy building/scripting
[16:18]	xstorm Radek:	it will crash on a flashing image
[16:18]	Memorial Dae:	Oh another zinger! :)
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	Ever noticed that as computers get exponentially faster, software never seems to?
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	It's because we get lazier as the hardware gets faster. Don't. :)
[16:19]	xstorm Radek:	it will crash when trying to take a snap shot
[16:19]	JB Hancroft:	I must have missed the "I am saying as funny" caveat...
[16:19]	Memorial Dae:	...who is this WE you speak of?
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	xstorm: Lucky for me, I don't take snapshots
[16:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	my friends code 3d engines for the commodore 64 ;)
[16:19]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	(not kidding)
[16:19]	Memorial Dae:	ascii 3d engines lol
[16:19]	Opensource Obscure:	i just took a snapshot using Viewer 2.1 alpha.
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All of us fear the sleazy scripters.
[16:20]	xstorm Radek:	save it to inventory
[16:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	also i like sculpties because theya re so limited, makes you want to get the most out of them
[16:20]	Simon Linden:	I have a quick survey : how many of you use the "Get Top Colliders" info when debugging a slow region?
[16:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	mesh will just invite more sloppy high rez modelers to sl ;)
[16:20]	Memorial Dae:	I do since I manage sandbox's
[16:21]	Opensource Obscure:	I do
[16:21]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, I would but cannot as I am on mainland.
[16:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ion, I believe LL is planning on supporting culls of irresponsible modelers. ;)
[16:21]	Moundsa Mayo:	Don't have that capability on my mainland parcels.
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: If and when we decide to provide mesh support, I assure you I will do everything in my power to ensure sloppy people pay hefty premiums and careful ones get hefty discounts on their prim costs :)
[16:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I don't have accesss to that Simon. I would LOVE to have access as I help many in SL.
[16:21]	JB Hancroft:	interesting
[16:21]	Simon Linden:	I believe it's currently broken in 1.40 ... not sure if we can get the fix in time or if it will have to wait for 1.40.1
[16:21]	Rex Cronon:	if u develop in a sandbox on the mainlandu can't see that daa:)
[16:22]	Rex Cronon:	that data:(
[16:22]	Memorial Dae:	Interesting because that is how we and a linden found several rampart links
[16:22]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah i miss the old days where you had to stand in a queue for two days at the oil^H^H^Hprim rig and wait for your quota of prims
[16:22]	Memorial Dae:	but this was a couple of months ago when we first got the server update! :)
[16:22]	Falcon Linden:	Most likely we will not have it fixed for 1.40.
[16:22]	Sindra Aquila:	will the collision event in regard to not bouncing of projectiles be improved?
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Sindra: What are you referring to?
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	if you mean that when you fire a projectile it bounces off the object it hits, that's not a bug, it's expected behavior.
[16:23]	Sindra Aquila:	the bouncing of projectiles in laqggy sims, although some ppl find out a secret cure for it
[16:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	When the collision event occurs vs. when it actually collides.
[16:23]	Simon Linden:	Ah, is that the arrow problem we were talking about before? It would be good to explain that to Falcon...
[16:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	simon and i do use top collider, to remove all physical prims since they kill sim performance ;)
[16:24]	Sindra Aquila:	yes
[16:24]	Rex Cronon:	bullets in sl bounce off targets like tennis balls
[16:24]	xstorm Radek:	oh i wemember that
[16:24]	Squirrel Wood:	Ah yes. item bounces, collision is processed like a second later
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	That said, I would like to give users control over restitution so they can make objects less bouncy. But the solution for that problem is not related to bounciness
[16:24]	Moundsa Mayo:	Oh - if you file a ticket asking for a report of the Top Scripts and Top Colliders on your mainland, the other owners might get warning letters about their overuse of simulator resources ..
[16:24]	xstorm Radek:	nope
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	The solution is to quit using projectiles for bullets. We need raycasting support
[16:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	OOol....that a great way to get back at the mainland sionchicken farms.
[16:25]	Sindra Aquila:	there excist a secret solution, but would be nice if a genral known solution be there
[16:25]	Simon Linden:	Thanks .... someone will have to make a decision about when we fix that : delay 1.40 or not
[16:25]	Memorial Dae:	surface intersection requires mroe data
[16:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	would the bouncyness not also depend on the prim material?
[16:25]	Sindra Aquila:	yes, but slightly, flesh is best
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	Sindra: I'm sure the "secret solution" is a horrifying hack that kills sim performance
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: In my "plan", setting a linkset's restitution would override the material
[16:26]	JB Hancroft:	is this plan ... funded?
[16:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	i did some test not too long ago and there was a significant difference in bouncyness depending on the material set on a prim
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	JB: It's approved-ish. Approved for dev work, not necessarily approved for ship
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	Yes, the material type determines bounciness right now
[16:27]	Sindra Aquila:	flesh is still best sofar
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	Heh
[16:27]	xstorm Radek:	i think a arrow like that may help
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Anyhow, collision events can be fired late because your script doesn't get run for a while. Trust me, the physics is working just fine :)
[16:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	a linksets restitution? not sure i follow that, could you explain that for the non anitive english speakers? ;)
[16:28]	JB Hancroft:	so it's an event scheduling issue?
[16:28]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Falcon, the issue is finding out where the collision event actually occurred.
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Sebastean: How so?
[16:28]	Sindra Aquila:	that one is debounced fime
[16:28]	Memorial Dae:	so the more scripts are running in a particular sim the more OFF a scripted detection will be
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: Maybe...my point is that restitution (bounciness) will only apply to entire linksets, not individual prims
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Since the collision event fires late, the "llgetpos" or whatever you use, doesn't get an accurate position. It may only fire during the bounce.
[16:29]	JB Hancroft:	... which the sim could certainly compensate for
[16:29]	lonetorus Habilis:	ah, gotcha
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	You can't access contact information from the collision event?
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Unfortnately.
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	huh
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	That's odd.
[16:29]	Simon Linden:	That will happen ... with more scripts around, it will be longer before it's the arrow's turn to get some execution time
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I would love to be able to do that, but we can't.
[16:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think there is a need for llcollaciongetpos
[16:29]	Sindra Aquila:	it is something done to the root prim
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llDetectedCollisionPos?
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	what about llDetectedPos()?
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	Sindra: yeah
[16:30]	Sindra Aquila:	dfoes not work, it is something abput a root prim changed somehow
[16:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	There is a caveat that prevents that from working correctly. It's escaping me at the moment. One ec while I look it up.
[16:30]	Memorial Dae:	I think at this phase of server beta we need to come up with a new euphemism for this particular concept of lag so that in the future we can distringuish between it and other lag! :)
[16:31]	Simon Linden:	yeah, there are many flavors of lag
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	How about we all try not to make simulated flying objects? :)
[16:31]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:31]	JB Hancroft:	funny
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	or rather, fast-moving flying objects
[16:31]	Squirrel Wood:	where is the fun in that? :p
[16:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	we could name it after falcon? ;)
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	OOo, nice!
[16:32]	JB Hancroft:	The Grounded Falcon
[16:32]	Memorial Dae:	....Yes only real flying objects...a completly integrated physics engine
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	We really need raycasting.
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes, when?
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	;)
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	No ETA yet
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	There's only one of me, sorry!
[16:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Falcon, as I recall. llDetectedPos still returns an inaccurate position. I remember running into that problem because I was trying to detect collisions pre-emptively with bullets for my bot.
[16:32]	Memorial Dae:	...yes it works so well for stargate :p
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Memorial: eh?
[16:33]	Fortune Egg:	Here's some wisdom for you:
[16:33]	Fortune Egg:	Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while. -- Anonymous
[16:33]	JB Hancroft:	raycasting assumed a flat targetory?
[16:33]	JB Hancroft:	*assumes
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Sebastean: Pre-emptively?
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	JB: Yes. Get over it? :)
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Do you really need parabolic arc on a bullet?
[16:33]	Memorial Dae:	raycasting is complete surface intersection calculation...massive data
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	Memorial: You'd be surprised how efficient it can be
[16:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	To detect collisions before my bot runs into something. That was my method before I gave up and just detected objects and did mathematical raycasting.
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	When done right
[16:34]	JB Hancroft:	depends... really
[16:34]	Simon Linden:	The arrow's actually a nice, simple usage case that would be good to solve
[16:34]	lonetorus Habilis:	falcon, my last sim wide shooter game, parabolic trajectories where a large part of the gameplay XD
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	It's inherently faster than collision detection generally
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: Then do some calculations and do maybe 4 or 5 shorter casts
[16:34]	lonetorus Habilis:	on the other hand i didnt need precise detection of hits
[16:35]	Simon Linden:	One raycast isn't too bad. There's actually several going on every frame trying to position your camera correctly
[16:35]	Memorial Dae:	it is only effecient if you have a proper engine for this proceeding :) IE: data engine to feed it properly and at the speed it requires
[16:35]	Simon Linden:	Plus others
[16:35]	Squirrel Wood:	I know someone who built himself some working artillery that plots its own firing solution and can hit targets that are several sims away ^^ and thefired projectile is actually hitting the target ^^
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	Memorial: We have Havok
[16:35]	JB Hancroft:	Squirrel.. nice
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	That is pretty cool and I respect that. It's not likely to hurt performance because really, how much use does it have other than being really cool?
[16:36]	Squirrel Wood:	estate manageent ;)
[16:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	lol
[16:36]	Squirrel Wood:	management...
[16:36]	Memorial Dae:	ok it jsut may be the beer...or remembering the beers outside that thai reasurant but arent we having the same conversation we had 4 eyars ago? :)
[16:36]	Squirrel Wood:	vaporizes griefers without them knowing what hit them ^^
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	I couldn't say, what with not being here that long and all
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	:-P
[16:37]	Squirrel Wood:	What I would like to see is my roller coaster working again. It milked havok 1 physics for what it was worth ;)
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	ok, any other questions or topics folks want to bring up?
[16:38]	Rex Cronon:	can we have air drag:)
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Squirrel: Build it better and it will work again :) No tori!
[16:38]	lonetorus Habilis:	will the flash based face book second life client require physics?
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: The what-now?
[16:38]	Liisa Runo:	lol
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	Rex : realistically, probably not for a long, long time :(
[16:39]	Simon Linden:	Although I would like to see better skydiving
[16:39]	JB Hancroft:	after raycasting ;)
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	haha
[16:39]	Squirrel Wood:	tori ftw :p
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	Havok has a wind simulation that works pretty well now
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	but no easy way to provide it to you. Oh well :-P
[16:39]	lonetorus Habilis	looks at job offers at the labs and M's press release and well, it seemed to point in the direction of a flash based facebook app
[16:39]	Rex Cronon:	can we affect the wind?
[16:40]	Rex Cronon:	can prims in the sim affect it?
[16:40]	xstorm Radek:	yes Rex
[16:40]	lonetorus Habilis:	the new greifing method, create a tornado that sweeps away ppl
[16:40]	Kaluura Boa:	heheheh
[16:40]	JB Hancroft:	shhhh
[16:40]	Rex Cronon:	lonetorus. u read my mind:)
[16:40]	Fortune Egg:	Here's some wisdom for you:
[16:40]	Fortune Egg:	Brain: an apparatus with which we think we think. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
[16:40]	Moundsa Mayo:	You used to be able to circle your avatar around and affect teh wind.
[16:40]	Kaluura Boa:	If only that was possible...
[16:40]	xstorm Radek:	they have one
[16:41]	lonetorus Habilis:	was that not already done with H1?
[16:41]	Falcon Linden:	Anyway, we don't even have client side prediction on our main viewer
[16:41]	Rex Cronon:	if we can create tornadoes we sould also be able to stop them:)
[16:41]	Rex Cronon:	we should also*
[16:42]	xstorm Radek:	funny thing is there was error windstorms at one time
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: Was what done with Havok 1?
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	Client side prediction?
[16:42]	lonetorus Habilis:	affecting wind, creating tornados
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	oh
[16:42]	xstorm Radek:	user side
[16:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I need to leave a bit early folks. Take care :)
[16:43]	lonetorus Habilis:	but yes please give us client side prediction
[16:43]	Rex Cronon:	tc sebastean
[16:43]	JB Hancroft:	bye Sebastean
[16:43]	Simon Linden:	Bye Sebastean
[16:43]	lonetorus Habilis:	see ya seb
[16:43]	xstorm Radek:	laterz Seb
[16:43]	lonetorus Habilis:	im tired of floating off into nothingness each time the sim has a hickup
[16:43]	Simon Linden:	I'm hoping we can get some basic client-side prediction without going to a full physics engine. I was looking at that code with respect to region crossings, and it's pretty simple
[16:43]	Liisa Runo:	this talk about wind reminds me of SVC-5399 that should be easy fix
[16:43]
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	Yep, I'm a big proponent of CSP
[16:44]	Simon Linden:	If anyone is looking for a Snowglobe project, that would be a good one
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	Simon: What would? CSP?
[16:44]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:44]	Simon Linden:	Yes. It's very simple ... it will snap you to the current position from whereever you are
[16:44]	lonetorus Habilis:	it is most often needed on region crossing indeed
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	Regardless of your position and velocity
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	For example, imagine 3 positions in a row : A B and C
[16:45]	lonetorus Habilis:	it makes multi sim car races really hard, having to slow down for the region crossing
[16:45]	lonetorus Habilis:	or boat races
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	You're going fast, so the viewer thinks you're going from A to C
[16:45]	Moundsa Mayo:	You'd need to work out the course TREND, not just the instantaneous velocity vector at region boundary
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	But lag kicks, in, and after it draws you at C, it gets an update and snaps you back to B
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	Even though your velocity will put you back at C very soon
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	So you get whiplash
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	It should probably also assume a 100 ms lag on region crossings :)
[16:47]	Moundsa Mayo:	That's handoff latency-type lag, Simon?
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	... it assumes a perfectly fast region crossing, so you always get rubber-banding
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	right.
[16:47]	xstorm Radek:	im seeing 200 ms
[16:47]	Moundsa Mayo:	AND any prediction method needs to consider the relative simulator loadings
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	It also should be smart enough not to have you wander off into the distance, off the region, under ground, etc
[16:47]	lonetorus Habilis:	but that would be wrong to assume, i should think only ppl sitting in the datacenter would get next to no lag
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	there are a lot of issues around region crossing and I'm not sure a viewer hack is the solution :)
[16:48]	Moundsa Mayo:	OR to change attitude any faster than you were 'historically'
[16:48]	xstorm Radek:	it seems bandwith can make it have even more problems
[16:48]	Simon Linden:	Right Moundsa ... it knows the sim TD, so add that in too
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	though it could certainly help a bit...maybe.
[16:48]	Squirrel Wood:	overseas connections tend to have about 100ms extra latency
[16:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	im usually in the 16-200ms range (denmark)
[16:48]	Moundsa Mayo:	Waht I see is a curving trajectory becoming straight at the crossing, but also the vehicle begins to roll, pitch, and yaw in new ways.
[16:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	160
[16:49]	Simon Linden:	It certainly won't be perfect, but having seen the current code, I was shocked how simplistic it is. Really just a "velocity x time since last update = where you are" , regardless of limits, etc
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	i was doing testing with lag on Aditi and looking at badwith and timing
[16:49]	Falcon Linden:	Yeah, well that's why I want real CSP :)
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	east coast USA do to the number of hops you can get some real problems
[16:50]	Squirrel Wood:	there are times when I cross into a new region only to find myself in the region past the one I was crossing into..
[16:50]	Simon Linden:	Oskar was commenting on the lag from Singapore yesterday. It sounded painful
[16:50]	lonetorus Habilis:	does the sim know a agents general network latency, and if so, does it use that information, and if not, could it be used?
[16:51]	xstorm Radek:	yes that can be i know people in japan with that problem
[16:51]	lonetorus Habilis:	when i was in japan, stuff outside japan was horrible, but inside japan it was 100mbit+ speeds
[16:51]	xstorm Radek:	some people in the UK too
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	I was also wondering about crossings : how many of you care about having smooth ones all the time? Lots of other worlds use some animation or something when you change levels or areas. It seems like we could offer that as an option and just make the experience better
[16:52]	Beyond Baroque:	Crossings matter a lot to dragons.
[16:52]	Opensource Obscure:	that would make sense in some cases
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	Obviously if you are sailing, flying, etc you'd prefer smooth transitions
[16:52]	Opensource Obscure:	but vehicles!...
[16:52]	Rex Cronon:	animation might break immersion
[16:52]	lonetorus Habilis:	what, fade to black, show a funny cartoon, fade to sl again while ppl cross region boundaries?
[16:52]	Beyond Baroque:	I keep losing riders when I cross sims with somebody on my saddle.
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	I'm hopeful that client side prediction will resolve a lot of the issues
[16:52]	xstorm Radek:	some one in the UK told me he was getting a bandwith of 9000 and ping of 0
[16:52]	Opensource Obscure:	true Rex but not always immersion is needed
[16:52]	Susie Chaffe:	some simple logic checks on postion updates would be nice...if greater than 256 or less than 0 ignore update.....
[16:53]	Moundsa Mayo:	llTeleportVehicleWithPassengers B^)
[16:53]	Opensource Obscure:	i guess a new user may be more comfortable with a 'please wait' smooth screen than current mess
[16:53]	Rex Cronon:	the animation could show only there is a big difference in physics between the sims
[16:53]	Moundsa Mayo:	NO, ANY more care taken with crossings will reduce rubberbanding.
[16:53]	Squirrel Wood:	heh.. I have 30+ mbit and yet SL never really goes above 750-950kbps.. even with bandwidth set to 1.5mbps
[16:53]	Rex Cronon:	only if there is*
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	Moundsa are you trying to make a griefers dreams come true ?
[16:53]	Moundsa Mayo:	Incremental changes will be very apparent.
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood:	and the line is capable of delivering the full speed
[16:54]	Simon Linden:	I don't think we'll find a single cure, so any fixes are going to be incremental
[16:54]	Moundsa Mayo:	And any predictive work done using known latencies will help immensely, as will the relatve TDs (and script lodaing)
[16:54]	lonetorus Habilis:	i still wish for the day sl will offer non flat regions, with mass of your region (planet) affecting gravity
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood:	yes. the client should report its average latency to the sim in one way or another
[16:55]	Liisa Runo:	i travel mainland often with vehicles, and i dont mind lil rubberband effect on borders, im very happy that nowdays it is rare to get unseated or logged out
[16:55]	Psi Merlin:	Sometime it would be better if the viewer could just wait when you walk across a border - rather than having you fly off on an underground tour of the next regions while everything catches up.
[16:55]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it would be really fun to have some more interesting sizes and physical parameters
[16:55]	xstorm Radek:	hhhmmm
[16:55]	Jonathan Yap:	I asked for variable gravity, so you could float around inside a space station
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	I'm planning to add variable gravity per object
[16:55]	Moundsa Mayo:	Griefers will always find mathods to cause trouble. Just use them to point out the holes and plug them.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	at least, a gravity multiplier
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	(can't change direction)
[16:55]	Simon Linden:	I think we have to first get rid of the funky flying limitations :)
[16:56]	Squirrel Wood:	the speed limit?
[16:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah whats up with thse?
[16:56]	Jonathan Yap:	Falcon, will the multiplier also be frational (i.e. 0.1) ?
[16:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	those
[16:56]	Squirrel Wood:	I loved being able to get to 100km within a short time ^^
[16:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	why where there originally a set limit for flying height?
[16:56]	Rex Cronon:	var grav for objects? hmm. not bad? how about avatars:)
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	It would be something like -10...10 or something, I don't know yet
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	Avatars are much harder so...uh, probably not :)
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	They're legacy, and hard to get rid of ... if we turned them off, every newbie or person who didn't get the message would fly through the roof when their flight assist kicked in
[16:56]	xstorm Radek:	ok Falcon your killing me i will be every day doing Abuse Reports
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	but if you were to sit on an object that had the effect...
[16:57]	Squirrel Wood:	I know that with havok 4 speed limits were put in
[16:57]	Moundsa Mayo:	And controllable within altitude interval, Falcon, so we could have variable gravity at different heights above ground level?
[16:57]	Squirrel Wood:	more strict ones than there were before
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: Maybe once we have script versioning
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, falcon, if thats the case, please also fix the poor lsl vehicle offerings
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[16:57]	Moundsa Mayo:	B^)
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	That will be a much larger project, Ionet
[16:57]	Squirrel Wood:	also, rotation speed limits to prevent the blitz exploit that would orbit people in such a way that they had to relog
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	i know
[16:57]	Jonathan Yap:	You could script the variable gravity in the object as it changes height
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	Right. But there won't be script hooks initially
[16:58]	Rex Cronon:	sometimes orbits were useful:)
[16:58]	Moundsa Mayo:	I'm thinking more like a skybox as a space station ...
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	I'm trying to avoid touching LSL until we have script versioning
[16:58]	lonetorus Habilis:	gravity multiplier, but would that not be almost the same as llsetbuoyancy()
[16:58]	Simon Linden:	We're almost out of time ... if you get the chance, please test things on the Aditi (beta) grid and file a jira if you find bugs
[16:58]	Moundsa Mayo:	so you'd want normal gravity at ground level, but lower in te hbox surrounding teh space station
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	it would be much better than llsetbuoyancy
[16:58]	Jonathan Yap:	Falcon, are there still enough knowledgeable lindens to carry on with script limits, versioning, etc?
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	I can't say. You might want to speak to Kelly
[16:59]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yah, Falcon, becasue then ALL physical objects would interact 'resonably' for teh local gravity
[16:59]	Rex Cronon:	there should be a list with what needs to be tested...
[16:59]	xstorm Radek:	may be with island owners you can do it but not with mainland
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	xstorm: I think we can't do that for legal reasons
[16:59]	Opensource Obscure:	Rex +
[16:59]	Moundsa Mayo:	There should be a full-regresion testing list extracted from old Jiras with volunteers accepting the tests that fit their skills.
[16:59]	xstorm Radek:	no Gravity
[17:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	in the community the loss of babbage has been seen as a instant death to the stuff he was working on, we need someone (not M) to reassure us that those things will still progress
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	I haven't read them, but Oskar had release note for 1.40 somewhere
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	Whatever's on that, plus physical stuff :)
[17:00]	Moundsa Mayo:	I've even heard a rumor that H7 would not be implemented on main grid now.
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: Unfortunately, I have no more information on that than you do.
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	Havok 7 WILL go out as planned (though it may be delayed slightly by a bug I found an hour ago :P)
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	many of the gravity sim systems have been around for ages
[17:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, im just telling you what has been said and felt :)
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	by other companys
[17:01]	Falcon Linden:	And I'm just reassuring you on the few things I can :)
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[17:01]	Moundsa Mayo:	Good to hear! ANd thanks for finding the bug B^)
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run .... thanks everyone for coming today
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[17:01]	Falcon Linden:	Cheers folks
[17:01]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thanks Simon!
[17:01]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks Simon
[17:01]	Opensource Obscure:	take care
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	thank you :-)
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc falcon
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	The sun will rise tomorrow (or again in about 4 hours) and we'll keep chipping away at the problems :)
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	Bye all
[17:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	see ya
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	laterz
[17:02]	Squirrel Wood:	have fun!
[17:02]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks Falcon for reassuring us about Havok 7 - I'll spread voice
[17:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	:D
[17:02]	JB Hancroft:	bye
[17:02]	Sindra Aquila:	bye simon
[17:02]	Ardy Lay:	Bye Simon

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