User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 18

Transcript

[15:37]	Opensource Obscure:	no, iirc
[15:37]	Opensource Obscure:	hah. may be a nice idea tho
[15:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	iirc?
[15:37]	Opensource Obscure:	if i remember correctly
[15:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh
[15:44]	Opensource Obscure:	did you see this video ? 'creature plays paganini' ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXHoLJnPPxM
[15:44]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders what sort of creature.
[15:45]	Opensource Obscure:	allegedly meshes
[15:46]	Griefer Evermore:	in SL, or another VW?
[15:46]	Opensource Obscure:	that's aditi
[15:46]	Opensource Obscure:	SL beta grid
[15:46]	Opensource Obscure:	in a closed mesh beta test region, apparently
[15:46]	Griefer Evermore:	was there sound with that?
[15:47]	Opensource Obscure:	i don't know, but you have a lovely name
[15:47]	Opensource Obscure:	in the youtube video there's audio, if that's what you meant
[15:47]	Griefer Evermore:	Oh, no-one has said my name is lovely before =^_~=
[15:48]	Griefer Evermore:	Ah, I may need to restart firefox... I was playing around with JACK and pulseaudio
[15:48]	Opensource Obscure:	do you mind if i add this to my profile?
[15:48]	Griefer Evermore:	the quote?
[15:49]	Opensource Obscure:	yeah. i'm sure it corroborates my reputation
[15:49]	Griefer Evermore:	Certainly.
[15:49]	Opensource Obscure:	very appreciated
[15:51]	Otome Exonar:	hey arawn, techwolf, jonathan
[15:51]	Jonathan Yap:	hi Otome
[15:51]	Griefer Evermore:	Hello Otome
[15:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Otome, still working at Linden Labs?
[15:51]	Otome Exonar:	huh i never worked for them
[15:51]	Otome Exonar:	o.O
[15:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	But, it might have embarrassed you, if yo had.
[15:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did Aimee keep her job?
[15:52]	Otome Exonar:	sheesh as one fo the few people who should remember whose alt i am yould know they would never ever hire me
[15:52]	Otome Exonar:	i wouldnt know. I wasnt aware aimee worked for them?
[15:53]	Bronson Blackadder:	as far as I know aimee is still here
[15:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Otome a new alt, that I haven't been introduced to, before, Cumere?
[15:54]	Sindra Aquila:	hello everyone
[15:54]	Otome Exonar:	-_- way to braodcast my id -_-
[15:54]	Otome Exonar	facepaws
[15:55]	Griefer Evermore:	=^_^=
[15:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hey, I'd do the same for God, which might be why She hasn't sent me her Internet ID yet
[15:55]	Liisa Runo:	all your pillows are belong to me
[15:55]	Otome Exonar:	very limited people know who im alt of. I kinda want to keep it that way
[15:55]	Griefer Evermore:	Hello Liisa
[15:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	k, we won't tell Bronson
[15:56]	Otome Exonar:	....
[15:56]	Kaluura Boa:	Hello everybody
[15:56]	Griefer Evermore:	hi Kaluura
[15:56]	Kaluura Boa:	I'm taking bets on No OH today...
[15:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	four untilthe last minute.
[15:57]	Bronson Blackadder:	I dont know anything
[15:57]	Griefer Evermore:	no bet...
[15:57]	Bronson Blackadder:	not watching chat
[15:57]	Bronson Blackadder:	lalalalalala
[15:57]	Kaluura Boa:	btw, did you hear news about meshes?
[15:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I want to go down to Haiti, and visit some Zombies.
[15:57]	Kaluura Boa:	Anybody...
[15:57]	Bronson Blackadder:	noooooooooo
[15:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Meshes? Is there news?
[15:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	cant talk about meshes yet
[15:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	lalalalalaklaklalala
[15:58]	Kaluura Boa:	The NDA was lifted... I heard a lot
[15:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	nooooooooo
[15:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	it was a miscommunication
[15:58]	Griefer Evermore:	hi Andrew
[15:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	its still in effect
[15:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew.
[15:58]	Kaluura Boa:	Too late... The cat is out of the bag
[15:58]	Jonathan Yap:	This is what leaked out earlier http://files.myopera.com/JonathanYap/files/mesh.txt
[15:58]	Sindra Aquila:	hi andrew
[15:58]	Liisa Runo:	[15:05] Qarl Linden: the mesh viewer will be released sometime before 2027 AD.
[15:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	What if the NDA got lifted, but they couldn't tell you, because of the NDA?
[15:59]	Otome Exonar	ish confused.
[15:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hello.
[15:59]	Otome Exonar:	hey andrew?
[15:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[16:00]	Andrew Linden:	Ha! And I told Falcon that you guys wouldn't even be interested in the NWN article about mesh.
[16:00]	Andrew Linden:	I guessed that at least half of you had signed the NDA.
[16:00]	Otome Exonar:	nwn?
[16:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	There was an actual case, like that. It was very surprising, that the Catholic Church had never gotten evidence, by which to excommunicate the Templars, but anyone who mentined the fact, was subject to Excommunication
[16:00]	Andrew Linden:	NWN = New World Notes
[16:01]	Otome Exonar:	yeah ive been kinda busy rl and kinda lost track with all the stuff going on
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Link?
[16:01]	Bronson Blackadder:	I signed
[16:01]	Griefer Evermore:	http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/05/mesh-import-havok-7-in-sl.html
[16:01]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, I enjoy your tangential historical trivia.
[16:01]	Bronson Blackadder:	but cant talk about the fact I signed
[16:02]	Griefer Evermore:	How well are meshes displayed on low-end machines?
[16:02]	Bronson Blackadder:	cant say :/
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Let me see if Simon or Falcon are attending...
[16:02]	Jonathan Yap:	This leaked out too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSu_4Taupk&feature=player_embedded
[16:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[16:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	omg
[16:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	ok so spread the leak
[16:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[16:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[16:03]	Jonathan Yap:	I didn't sign a nda :)
[16:03]	Otome Exonar:	I guess I was supposed to sign a nda?
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	Let's see... news and announcements...
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	server-1.40 is having a bunch of bugs fixed.
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	I think most of those we'll be fixing for 1.40 are done, maybe one more that Falcon was working on, right?
[16:06]	Jonathan Yap:	I was in a region running 1.40 this afternoon, thought it a bit odd it was at that version
[16:06]	Falcon Linden:	And rumors of the demise of megaprims are just rumors. As for bugs, there's the whole counting-avs-on-vehicles thing
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, that one more bug. Maybe we'll no longer be counting avatars as prims on objects, Falcon?
[16:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would we still be able to move sitting avatars?
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	yeah I think so, but they wouldn't count on parcel prim accounting
[16:07]	Falcon Linden:	The only change would be to modify how the process of setting physical checks the prim limit
[16:07]	Liisa Runo:	naturally, they still behave like prims, they just dont whine when toggling to physics
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	that is the hypothetical fix I think -- we haven't worked it all out yet
[16:08]	Sindra Aquila:	Is there any way to alter a prim, so the script in it has the highest priority?
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	Sindra, highest priority for what?
[16:08]	Liisa Runo:	is this about a bow and arrow?
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Anyway, I have grand plans for how we can provide a new (OPT IN, BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE) accounting system to encourage more efficient physics builds that would allow more complex looking vehicles that perform better
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	oh script priority.
[16:08]	Sindra Aquila:	same old problem the fix for bouncing
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, there is no way to do it now.
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Oh, yeah, and I want to add control of restitution so you can just set objects not to bounce.
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Or to bounce more!
[16:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Stick on Collision?"
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	No, sticking doesn't make sense. But hit and then just sliding down does
[16:09]	Sindra Aquila:	that is fabulous
[16:09]	Griefer Evermore:	stick on collision would be fun
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	it won't stick because gravity will still affect it
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	it just won't /bounce/
[16:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Well, stop phys on collision
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	if you want it to actually stick, that's trickier
[16:09]	Jonathan Yap:	Falcon, when will you be adding magnetism? :)
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	exactly, Jonathan :)
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	c'mon Falcon, let's just create a sticky action on contact ;-)
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Totally!
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	(not)
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	No magnetic action in the works.
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	In adding new features, I want them each to be as granular as possible to minimize exploits
[16:10]	Kaluura Boa:	If it doesn't bounce back, with a buoyancy of 1.0, an object should stick... more or less
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	oh, and if I get my say, any function like llSetRestitution would have a dummy extra parameter that would have to be set to 0 initially for it to work. So we could fix bugs and have the fix only apply to new scripts (e.g., those with '1' in that field)
[16:11]	Xugu Madison:	That's both brilliant and nightmarish....
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Kaluura: Better. If I add restitution, I'll also add a gravity multiplier. So just set that to 0 and gravity won't affect the object
[16:11]	Jonathan Yap:	Sounds like poor mans versioning
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	Yep
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	It'll be unpleasant to support, but less unpleasant than the current situation
[16:12]	Latif Khalifa:	so that means with the closure of the uk office we can pretty much kiss the real script versioning good bye?
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: I can't speak to that, both because I don't know and because if I did, I probably wouldn't be allowed to speak to that :P
[16:13]	Latif Khalifa:	i can bitch about freely :P
[16:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	lol
[16:13]	Kaluura Boa:	I love LL openness... (sarcastic)
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	The fate of "script versioning" (aka C# in SL) is unkown at this time.
[16:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	at least we had no nda on mesh for about 10 minutes
[16:13]	Liisa Runo:	openness remind me, can you guys give me up to date list of g-ream members?
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew can talk about anything because no one is crazy enough to fire him
[16:13]	Jonathan Yap:	Baggage laid out the plan he hopes will get adopted
[16:14]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:14]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, y'know, we said that about Babbage.....
[16:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah
[16:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	we did
[16:14]	Falcon Linden:	Technically, Babbage is still employed by LL
[16:14]	Latif Khalifa:	but seriously, relay this to your managers, killing scripting improvments would show linden exec management has no faith in the future of the SL platform
[16:14]	Latif Khalifa:	perhaps they'll get it
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Labs established multiple offices, so nobody like Andrew would know where all the bodies are buried
[16:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif, dont be so square, scripting in sl is only part of what makes sl, sl
[16:15]	Otome Exonar:	love crashing
[16:15]	Latif Khalifa:	it's a major part lone, nothing has been done in scripting since 2006
[16:15]	Kaluura Boa:	Without scripts SL would be a bit lame...
[16:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	allthough a pretty boring sl XD
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno... it has been argued that LSL is the lifeblood of SL content... I think I agree.
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	lonetorus, sure, but it's a part of SL that's massively underdeveloped and underpowered.
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Creative Content is what makes it other than Vampire Wars
[16:15]	Latif Khalifa:	and the first real improvement we get is now threatened by the restructuring
[16:16]	Xugu Madison:	When the door on someone's house breaks because the scripts can't handle errors at all, they don't go "Well, y'know, it's only a small part of SL..." well, not the first time, anyway
[16:16]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: wouldn't it be cool if M held office hours?
[16:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	cant they hire babbage as a external
[16:16]	Jonathan Yap:	If M held OH it would be more of a zoo than what I have seen at Jack's
[16:17]	Liisa Runo:	haha, yes, we want to talk to M face to face
[16:17]	Otome Exonar:	falcon I dont think that would be a good idea
[16:17]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh god M would fall to peices
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I think M Linden wanders the grid sometimes... (I don't even do that).
[16:17]	Kaluura Boa:	hehehe
[16:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	he does, mostly over at philips place
[16:17]	Kaluura Boa:	Yes, I 've seen him online more than once
[16:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	he bought some of my stuff
[16:17]	Otome Exonar	wonders if the ccs sims still have a bounty on m
[16:17]	Latif Khalifa:	for me it's really not about specific people. it's about the future of the platform. if M & friends don't think improving the platform is important by killing of the scripting core of the lab, then i have no faith in the executive management and their commitment to sl
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	That sounds like its about specific people
[16:18]	Liisa Runo:	Andrew, you should wander a lot, you know about stuff under the hood, but i bet you would be suprised if you see what we have made
[16:18]	Latif Khalifa:	no i don't really care
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	sorry, specific people's policies
[16:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	faceless peoples policies
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	Anyway, I don't wander the grid either. We're too busy fixing bugs for you :-P
[16:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew should at least ride the trains, on occassion
[16:19]	Latif Khalifa:	i want something done about sim freezes, about getting a real language to work with, about the exec management showing the faith in their own products long term survivor
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	hahaha
[16:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	but you rely on info we give you through jira and oh then ?
[16:19]	ZHAO AO	w/slowsexywalk: Could not find animation 'sexywalk'
[16:19]	ZHAO AO	w/slowsexywalk: Could not find animation 'sexywalk'.
[16:19]	ZHAO AO	w/slowsexywalk: Could not find animation 'sexywalk'
[16:19]	ZHAO AO	w/slowsexywalk: Could not find animation 'sexywalk'.
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	through jira, yes
[16:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	[01:19] ZHAO AO w/slowsexywalk: Could not find animation 'sexywalk'.
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	I need to talk about the fate of LSL with Kelly Linden again. He was making some rounds internally trying to bolster supprot for scripting as a feature that deserves resources.
[16:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, i thought you didn't do fixing, just closing jira's sayign "no can't do" :p
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	I'm curious to see what is conclusions/feedback were.
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: Naah, I just say that to /some/ of the jiras :)
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	Oh, wait, no, I don't fix bugs. That's mostly true. Except for the ones I create myself.
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	I prefer to add features--features that work (mostly)--since fixing bugs tends to cause...more bugs!
[16:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	would it not be cool if we had read access to the internal jira?
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: the fact that Kelly even needs to do internal PR to bolster support for scripting is worrying.
[16:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	or OMG write access
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: you'd be bored to tears. Think pjira, but less interesting
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	The good news is that Falcon can fix his own bugs very quickly.
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	hehe
[16:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, yeah wev'e alrady seen a run on Lindex. If they kill off the scripting improvements, that will just show that execs really don't think SL has a long time viability, and they're trying to make a quick fix with restructuring
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	Thanks :)
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	I was wondering what the Lindex numbers looked like
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Does LL have a techical person on the Board at all? Not sure if Joe is on the Board.
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	I guess I should check. I wonder if it reacted like you might expect to the announcements
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Philip is on the board
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Token
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, lindex is remarkable stable, except for the past couple of days where it lost 10%
[16:22]	lonetorus Habilis:	i wonder if mesh nda lift so "soon" has anything to do with the recent lindex activity
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	then got some back up
[16:22]	lonetorus Habilis	puts on tinfoil hat
[16:22]	Xuxa Xevion:	I think it is really cool that all of the Lindens are loyally usign VIewer 2.
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	now $L is about 5% lower value that it way before it started 3 days ago
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: No idea what you're talking about
[16:23]	Latif Khalifa:	Xuxa, you think all lindens use viewer2? :P
[16:23]	Xuxa Xevion:	All that I see here.
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	I do.
[16:23]	Liisa Runo:	not all Xuxa
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	I like it better than 1.23
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	I think most people who aren't used to the old viewer like it better
[16:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeh, i dont know what im talking about either, lets talk about something we do know then, hows H7 comming along, rollout was stopped?
[16:23]	Xuxa Xevion:	I like Kirsten's Viewer 2 clone, but I am ntoon it now.
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	It's coming along great, actually
[16:24]	Sindra Aquila:	is there a way in it to limit the number of lines filling the screen, i have not yet found out
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	I fully expected the pilot deploy to fail
[16:24]	Griefer Evermore:	i use several different ones depending on circumstance
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	well, not so much fail as tell us what we needed to know:
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	how are people REALLY using the sims?
[16:24]	Simon Linden:	The beta version of 2 I'm using has some nice improvements -- no jumping around with the pop-out sidebar, for example
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	taht's what they all say, after it faisl :P
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	We can't test everything, we can't know about every weird way you combine things
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	was the rollout to sims that had signed up for it?
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really Falcon? That's one of my pet peeves for Viewer-2. I guess I'll have to upgrade.
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	There is no reason for Lindens to have a different cross-section of views on V2.0 compared to tech residents. Since they uniformly use V2 though, that indicates that non-use is frowned upon inside LL, or is even downright dangerous in the climate of firings.
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	But I believe that as of this afternoon, other than the counting of avs on physical objects (quick fix), all the known crashes have been fixed. But we'll need a new pilot to test that :)
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Otherwise there would be plenty of tech Lindens using 1.23 or TPV viewers.
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: No one cares around here what viewer you use
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	well, the viewer team wants people to use it for testing purposes, but really, no one cares
[16:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	morgain, would you as a linden with god right trust any tpv?
[16:25]	Xuxa Xevion:	I keep getting a media player error message on 2.
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	No Morgaine, see no evidence of that "don't use 1.23" pressure.
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	indeed
[16:26]	Simon Linden:	You're not considering the internal efforts to help out : I use it so I might find and report bugs. I tell the devs what I think is bad
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: can you explain why no Linden uses anything other than V2 then? Surely you don't claim to be different to tech residents?
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: We all like V2 better? :P
[16:26]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, not really true, I know you are not allowed to use 3rd part viewers with the official Linden account ;)
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	I've been known to use 1.23 occasionally
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: yeah, that is correct
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	security reasons
[16:27]	Otome Exonar:	um if they dont care which viewer we use why did the blog state they are gonna move us all to 2.0 by q4?
[16:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew's on 1.23, but some off duty lindens use RL
[16:27]	Sindra Aquila:	will there be a way to limit the #lines in v2.0 as in snowglobe so in mouse the screen dont fill up, or is it there and i cant find out?
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right. We can't use 3rd party viewers internally, or for Linden accounts.
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pure BS Falcon, and you know darn well that we're not falling for it. Even those who hate V2 in LL are using it.;
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	Otome: because supporting multiple viewers is a drain on limited resources
[16:27]	Xuxa Xevion:	2 seems to stack up cache morethan 1.23, OK if you are running it alone, but deadly if your are multitasking .
[16:27]	Latif Khalifa:	well less than half of the people online use it, should tell you how popular it is ;)
[16:28]	lonetorus Habilis	hands the blue kitty a roll of tinfoil, "you missed a patch"
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Statistics would inevitably mean that many Lindens don't like V2. People vary.
[16:28]	Otome Exonar:	2.0 is major problematic though, and I've had to send sooo many new users back to 1.23 because 2.0 is simply too confusing and poorly laid out
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Many people use third party viewers, and we fully support that
[16:28]	Xuxa Xevion:	If you go to a group of moderate oldtimers, they are all usign Emerald.
[16:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	eat your own dogfood i say
[16:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	its good they use v2
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Otome: Really? I always thought that was the case with 1.23. I could never use it well
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[16:28]	Simon Linden:	Sindra - which lines? chat?
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	viewer 2 was a huge improvement as a newbie when I first came on
[16:28]	Xuxa Xevion:	That is how I started this, I really thought it was cool they were loyal, in the face of relaity.
[16:29]	Latif Khalifa:	falcon you're a noob, you have no idea how good 1.23 is ;)
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: EXACTLY
[16:29]	lonetorus Habilis:	lol
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	As I understand it 1.23 works well for certain activities in SL -- combat play for example
[16:29]	Sindra Aquila:	well in snowglobe and older viewer you could alter #lines in chat tab so screen do not fill up in mouselook
[16:29]	Latif Khalifa:	and i guess if you were born in jail, you wound't know how nice outside is :P
[16:29]	Bug Hilltop:	Ahem, trouble is it's alienated all the OLD users
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	Bug: Yes, that is the trouble
[16:30]	Otome Exonar:	yes combat, but its also more intiuitive especially for people that come from mmo's like rappelz and such
[16:30]	Jonathan Yap:	can we talk about something other than viewer 2 flaws?
[16:30]	Xuxa Xevion:	Am old customer kept is worht three prospects.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well at least Nyx is honest enough to say openly that it will take a while before V2 reaches the same level of usability as V1. And he's working to achieve that. Making most of the terrible UI regressions of V2 optional (like in Kirsten's viewer) would help with that.
[16:30]	Bug Hilltop:	We've all had maybe years to fine tune where we want what
[16:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	That V2 NDA got in the way of any gentle change over
[16:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, the responsible ppl have been fired, now lets have some progress in a different direction
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	I am a proponent for open development at LL
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	Each 1.23 user has a specific issue (or three) that makes V2 super annoying.
[16:30]	Simon Linden:	(we secretly direct the conversation that way so we don't have to hear more server problems)
[16:30]	Griefer Evermore:	Yes... anything but viewer wars please
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	Probably in the same way that I can't use MacOS
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: Those responsible have been sacked. (kidding)
[16:30]	Xuxa Xevion:	I have twelve specific issues.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	As Arawn says, the NDA is largely to blame for the mess on V2 release.
[16:30]	Bug Hilltop:	and those who sacked them, have been sacked
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	it cannot achieve the same level of usability ever, by design. sidebar = model design = bad thing in any 101 design book
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	exactly, bug
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	modal
[16:31]	Liisa Runo:	yes, lets talk abot something else than v2 stuff, we have heard this same discussions over and over again for months now, and nothing changes, maybe a ywar or 2 will make it better client
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	And some people (like Xuxa) have counted all their issues ;-)
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	I'm with Lilsa
[16:31]	Liisa Runo:	year or 2*
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	no two profiles, no looking at teh group profile and person profile... usabilty broken by design
[16:31]	Xuxa Xevion:	I had to write a blog and counted for that.
[16:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, why are we talking v2 at a sim oh?
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	If anyone has any info on the 1.40 CRASHES, it would be nice to confirm that our fixers worked
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif is right about the modality problem. Whoever designed V2 UI didn't take UI class 101. Major regression vs V1.
[16:32]	Xuxa Xevion:	Mea culp[a.
[16:32]	Andrew Linden:	Well LL politics and communication practices/behaviors are fair game
[16:32]	Xuxa Xevion:	Anythign LL is fair game.
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	recently at yoz's oh, we discussed how we might improve QA, any thoughts on that?
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	Volunteer to have your region in the pilot? :)
[16:32]	Jonathan Yap:	Hire more QA people?
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Fire more people, that's the answer.
[16:33]	Jonathan Yap:	Give them more time to work?
[16:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Imagines if LL Management hasd to pass QA
[16:33]	Xuxa Xevion:	Respond even if you don't have an answer, so peopel know you are listening.
[16:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	[01:32] Jonathan Yap: Hire more QA people?
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Jonathan: time isn't really the issue. The issue is that we can never anticipate every use case
[16:33]	Jonathan Yap:	I had a friend in QA once and heard many stories about rushing for deadlines
[16:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, how are things regarding automated qa
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	Okay, fine, let me rephrase: Time would be nice, but it wouldn't have helped any of the 1.40 issues I've seen
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's lots of funds. M sent around an email declaring LL finances to be in great shape. So either "Insuffient funds" is inaccurate, or M was lying.
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	The only way to test those was to have to users try all their weird corner cases and unanticipated builds. If you want better deploys, participate in the beta program and/or volunteer your sims for pilots
[16:34]	Xuxa Xevion:	WHat were the major issues for 1.40?
[16:35]	Opensource Obscure:	Falcon , please add LOL to the pilot
[16:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Large cars Xuxa.
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	A couple tiny (one line) bugs I introduced in my optimizations for Havok 7 were the cause of most issues I dealt with
[16:35]	Arawn Spitteler	doesn't understadn Morgaine's implication of an Exclusive Or
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	Opensource: Btw, it would be great if you'd blog "Falcon Linden saves megaprims"
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	err, tweet
[16:35]	Opensource Obscure:	(don't we handle pilot regions list on PJIRA by the way?)
[16:35]	Simon Linden:	fwiw we might get a new version on Aditi before the weekend ... there are a few things left to fix, but the next one will have some important bugs repaired
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	you know, after your last tweet
[16:35]	Liisa Runo:	anyone with calculator knows SL makes shitloads of profit. no need M to confirm it
[16:35]	Opensource Obscure:	hah. did my one cause confusion?
[16:36]	Latif Khalifa:	"Falcon Linden almost kills megaprims, changes his mind in the last second"
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	A bit
[16:36]	Simon Linden:	Liisa - you need a new calculator :)
[16:36]	Liisa Runo:	i dont
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Arawn: well I guess M could be lying regardless, but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in that exclusive or :-)
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	Opensource: also, you'll have to file that request through support I think so they can verify you're the owner...or something.
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	Most calculators work perfectly these days. It's the model you plug into them that matters.
[16:37]	Opensource Obscure:	falcon, so don't we use PJIRA for that ?
[16:37]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oskar set up a wiki page for sim owner to request there sim copied to beta grind.
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Opensource: No. I think that goes through support since it's region-specific
[16:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think, or was that pilot roll request......
[16:38]	Opensource Obscure:	i see i'm estate manager but not owner. owner is ok but can't attend this stuff. so in the past i handle that with Oskar. i see a problem now..
[16:38]	Latif Khalifa:	there is a wiki page to request that
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	And damn it, where's my "Falcon saves megaprims!" tweet? :P
[16:39]	Latif Khalifa:	to be included in pilot rolls
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	You used UDP to send it?
[16:39]	Techwolf Lupindo	tweets "Falcom saves megaprims! News at 11."
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	I like it
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	but you missed the #sl
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:40]	Latif Khalifa:	well you did say something "i'm killing llVolumeDetect for megaprims at beta oh" ;)
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	I did. And I since found a way to save them
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	See?
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:40]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[16:40]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh?
[16:40]	Liisa Runo:	tell us more
[16:40]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah...
[16:40]	Latif Khalifa	pins megaprim saviour badge at falcon's chest xd
[16:41]	Falcon Linden:	I found a way to modify the way we add physics objects to the world so that non-physical volume detect objects will not collide with non-physical prims
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	great
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	an the number of physical colissions in miniscule in comparison
[16:41]	Liisa Runo:	we also need to have physical phantom prims that dont collide with terrain and the invisible terrain that is way above the visial one
[16:41]	Falcon Linden:	you'll still see performance issues if you have tons of physical objects in the world, but..yes, what latif said
[16:42]	Kaluura Boa:	Talking about collisions... What about collisions calculated with the ground for objects up to 768m?
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	How do you guys know about that?
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	so, if you had a giant VolumeDetect prim and you were rezzing lots of temp-on-rez constantly inside --> lots of lag, but no longer (if the objects are not dynamic ([ ] Physics unchecked))
[16:42]	Simon Linden:	That change fixed a few other bugs as well ... like the extra collision event on startup
[16:42]	Liisa Runo:	we make experiments, we are residents, we know stuff
[16:42]	Kaluura Boa:	hehehe
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	The Residents know all.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	(all the bugs)
[16:43]	Latif Khalifa:	i know that object updates are 2d ;) if you walk on the ground sim is spamming you with object updates from a skybox 500m above
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: except how to build content that DOESN'T exploit bugs :)
[16:43]	Otome Exonar:	about time someone realized that.
[16:43]	Otome Exonar:	j/k *offers andrew a hug*
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	The issue with ground collisions is on my short list
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	hoping for 1.44
[16:43]	Liisa Runo:	we dont need to exploit bugs when we get better set of tools and functions
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	I agree. And I'm trying my best to push for projects that get you those tools
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	as well as tools to help you better understand how different features affect performance
[16:44]	Simon Linden:	yep Latif ... we've started looking at that update code since it needs some attention. Making it think in 3D would be good :)
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon :)
[16:45]	Liisa Runo:	the performance is the reason we need to use volumedetect in big physical vehicles, without volumedetect they lag like hell
[16:45]	Latif Khalifa:	you see we do know everthing ;)
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	Right. Some LL devs are starting to look into the interstlist code now. I think the overhaul will happen this year (2010).
[16:45]	Latif Khalifa:	just release the bloody source so we can fix bugs too :P
[16:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	o/
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Even given the reorg? :)
[16:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Fixing that internail list will fix a lot of lag and "rezzing" problems.
[16:46]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: Why can't you use phantom?
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Falcon, I think so.
[16:46]	Kaluura Boa:	phantom isn't enough
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	I'm actually optimistic about the reorg... except for the fate of LSL improvements.
[16:46]	Liisa Runo:	cause phantom collides with that invisible terrain above the visual one and cause lag
[16:46]	Kaluura Boa:	It makes no difference... While volumeDetect does
[16:46]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, what do you think about a better documented way in the wiki explaining the process of participation for improving sl, how office hours work, pjira, general process descriptions, to help the techie noobs get up to date quicker, also i would love to see a more formalized oh format, a bit like nyx does it, with a wiki agenda, where either the oh holding linden can add items or ask participants to add agenda items before the oh starts
[16:46]	Liisa Runo:	volumedetect dont collide with magic terrain
[16:46]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: interesting. And good point.
[16:46]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah killing of every scripting linden except kelly is major blunder in this reorg thing
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	I think the reorg is going to give more decision and pushback power to the LL devs.
[16:47]	Latif Khalifa:	and scripting has been neglected for years :(
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	So that means yet more reasons to fix the land collisions issue
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... a more formalized OH agenda is possible I suppose...
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	In a correct implementation: (1) land collision checks would be very fast and (b) they wouldn't happen if you were above the highest point in the region
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	I wouldn't want to do it more than once a week, so I'd have to convert one of the existing OH hours (er hour and three quarters).
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Not as long as I'm here there won't be :P
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	here in office hours, I mean, I'm not quitting over OH format :)
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	The interest list is one of only two scalability benefits that SL has over Opensim, so you ought to look after the interest list and improve on it. (Your other scalability benefit is script microthreading.)
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	wow, I said (1) and (b). heh
[16:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	there are a lot of people who haev never even met a linden, and im sure also a lot of people who would like to participate aswell, i think you would see more pjira activity, if they had a more personal relationship with ll (via oh)
[16:49]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: I'm hoping to add client side prediction to the list
[16:49]	Bug Hilltop:	The OH HUD is notoriously hard t ofind :P
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: if you're doing it by adding closed-source Havok client-side, then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
[16:49]	lonetorus Habilis:	someone should sit down and code a open one
[16:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[16:50]	Opensource Obscure:	i'd contribute with a bount for that
[16:50]	Opensource Obscure:	if it worked reliably
[16:50]	lonetorus Habilis:	bug, also there is no mention of the oh hud on the wiki or where to get it
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Client-side prediction in itself is a good thing though.
[16:50]	Opensource Obscure:	o/
[16:50]	Jonathan Yap:	I generated a set of landmarks by day of week and hour, easy enough to check that
[16:50]	Bug Hilltop:	Ah, yers, the only mention of it Ihave ever seen is ablog somewhere
[16:51]	lonetorus Habilis:	i talked with one of the doc team lindens about this aswell, and he thought it was a good idea
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: If we add closed source havok client-side prediction, we will make it sufficiently generic that the open source viewers can continue to thrive using Bullet, PhysX, whatever they want
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	If you can find me an open source physics engine with havok's performance and that can be made to preserve perfect backward compatibility with all content in world, I'll gladly push to adopt it at LL
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	I wish we'd just fix the walk-off-into-the-sunset-or-underground prediction code first.
[16:52]	Latif Khalifa:	you can't, havok is really good
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	Actually, Prep Linden is working on that.
[16:52]	lonetorus Habilis:	could the cleint side prediction not be redistributed as a binary library?
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: No, Havok has explicitly forbidden us from distributing a library that exposes Havok's engine
[16:53]	lonetorus Habilis:	simon, indeed, that should be a easy step in the right client side prediction direction
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	However, Havok does provide a version of their physics engine for free for educational use
[16:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anything client side would be exposed, to sufficiently skilled fingers.
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	Was that a "fake promise" Falcon? Even future versions of Havok are not expected to be drop in replacements with 100% compatibility are they? ;-)
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	damn havok people xD they still have their independence after they were acquired by intel, otherwise i was nudging intel guys to push for allowing opensim to use havok rolaytee free xD
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Of course it was a fake promise. Because I know it can't be done :)
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: Actually, Intel is the reason they offer a free version
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	so push all you like, maybe you'll get it!
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, havok does allow it for non-profit use but on windows only :(
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	True. But that's probably due to lack of demand for other platforms
[16:55]	Latif Khalifa:	intel does a lot of things for opensim, they have 4-5 devs working on it full time
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	(excluding the consoles which they contractually couldn't give their libs away for...and wouldn't do you much good anyway)
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Hear that? Apparently if we get laid off we can go intel ;)
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every use of closed source client-side is a kick in the teeth to alleged Linden support for open source. And Havok client-side will just ensure LL's client becomes irrelevant faster once open grids become the norm.
[16:56]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Not at all. We're using the best technology available to us. If you can create a better product using open source technology, we'd love to see how and learn from it
[16:56]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, they did manage to get 1000 avatars in one sim
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: your choice to go closed source. Don't say I didn't warn you.
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Noted
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	And warned
[16:57]	Andrew Linden	always expected an open source simulator to catch up eventually.
[16:57]	Latif Khalifa:	have you seen http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/scisim_loadtest_014.png
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, its bound to happen
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: yeah, there are a number of problems with avs, not least of which is the insane number of attachments and triangles they have
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	client though will still take a bit more time
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	Why is that lonetorus? the client is already OS and there are forks.
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	That photo shows a nearly empty region and all identical, simple avatars. I bet we could do that too :)
[16:58]	Bitterly Sweet:	otome will be back in a few. our net crashed
[16:58]	lonetorus Habilis:	what i meant a cleint with no ll code
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... actually no Falcon, not with the current interestlist code.
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	uh oh
[16:59]	Bug Hilltop:	And maybe they arent moving either
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	But Runitai could probably render them.
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	Really? On an empty region?
[16:59]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, turns out the chatter of the protocol is raelly killing 1000 avatars in the sim, so what Intel folks did was to split opensim
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	With no attachments, etc?
[16:59]	Latif Khalifa:	they had one "simulation host" and 4-5 "client managers" that only did talking to clients
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon just think.... 1000 LLAgentActionDescriptor instances
[16:59]	Opensource Obscure:	a quick question about assets - it's a pity we can't create landmarks of remote locations. it would be handy for visiting a place later. would this actually impossible to implement? do we really go to a place to create its landmark?
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	If they avatars are standing still, the action isn't applied :)
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	And that isn't even the interestlist
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	hehe
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	In fact, if nothing is moving, physics time is ~0
[17:00]	Latif Khalifa:	but the only really sucky part in opensim is physics, none of the opensource engines are close to havok atm
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	Opensource, it would be possible to hack the client to generate remote landmarks.
[17:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, would be good with a text based slurl container/landmark that could be edited
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	That is, it doesn't depend on any server-side stuff AFAIK.
[17:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	better ask nyx about it though
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	i could look it up in radegast code ;)
[17:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	The chatter even from 1000 pure sim-side avs could be minimal unless they're continually changing direction or acceleration.
[17:01]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks
[17:01]	Otome Exonar	kicks arawn. "stop crashing my net" :P
[17:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif, you better concentrate on adding search to the inventory!!!1
[17:01]	Jonathan Yap:	While you are hacking Oz had this idea of having your landmarks available on the login page, below where you can type in a region name
[17:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	;)
[17:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Would like to have a LM created for object instead of avatar. Would be good for abuse reports or beta reprots or "come see this very tini object here"
[17:02]	Falcon Linden:	Techwolf: I don't think we want to encourage building of very tiny objects :)
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Techwolf, the LM would have to move if the object moved, right?
[17:02]	Latif Khalifa:	no it's server side :(
[17:02]	Bug Hilltop:	Sit on it and generate a SLURL?
[17:02]	Bug Hilltop:	shrugs and goes back to doing her nails
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a virtual world. Making microscoping avatars and objects would be wonderful.
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	client sends CreateInventoryItem packet to server
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	microscopic*
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	with landmark type
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	server creats asset based on agents current location
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	so no remote landmarks i'm afraid
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Oh hrm...
[17:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, fix
[17:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[17:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've look at the code, Latif is right. Sim creates LM.
[17:04]	Ardy Lay:	I thought landmarks didn't use assets.
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tech: ouch. That's terrible.
[17:04]	Latif Khalifa:	yup they do
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	No, LM's definitely use assets.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	But perhaps there isn't an asset upload path for LM's.
[17:04]	Latif Khalifa:	client just sends CreateInventoryItem message, server creates assets based on location of the agent
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure. Nevertheless... a viewer-side-only LM bookmark system must be doable.
[17:05]	Otome Exonar:	oaky all im gonna take off have a good day
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Emerald should implement it.
[17:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, if there is an asset upload for LM, Please let us know.
[17:05]	Jonathan Yap:	heck, it would be nice just to be able to edit a landmark's data, adjust the position or region rather than having to create a new one
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, it is time to call it a day.
[17:05]	Bug Hilltop:	Say, do you Lindens HAVE to use 2.0 now?
[17:05]	Latif Khalifa:	there is no way to create landmarks in a location other that current
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:06]	Bitterly Sweet:	not yet but very soon bug
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Presumably the landmark assets are immutable
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	all assets are
[17:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, emerald would implement, but its the server that creates it. Need LM assesst upload.
[17:06]	Liisa Runo:	thanks, and Falcon, think about them phantom physical vehicles that use megaprim, like hot air balloons
[17:06]	Bug Hilltop:	I think a few should use Emerald :P
[17:06]	Griefer Evermore:	Thank You Andrew, Falcon, Simon
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks for your time Andrew :)
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Well... the viewer invokes the world map, and you can teleport no?
[17:06]	Bug Hilltop:	Thanks, yes...all you'se
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: The solution will be to fix the land
[17:07]	Falcon Linden:	I already know more or less how, it's just about finding the time :)
[17:07]	Bitterly Sweet	waves. Thank you lindens
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	So imagine a viewer-side bookmark that triggers the right events with the world-map and teleports.
[17:07]	Opensource Obscure:	bye ! ^^
[17:07]	Griefer Evermore:	bye =^_^=
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Thanks again everyone ... see you next time
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well assets in WebDAV aren't immutable, and Simiangrid and VWRAP are moving ahead, so I guess LL had better address that before they get left behind :P
[17:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Andrew, Falcon, Simon :-)
[17:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	thanks for having us andrew, falcon and simon
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	Cheers
[17:08]	Latif Khalifa:	take care you guys :)
[17:08]	Liisa Runo:	nini honeycat ❤
[17:08]	Liisa whispers	nonsenses into Kaluura's ear.
[17:08]	Kaluura Boa:	Nini; Honeybug
[17:09]	Sindra Aquila:	bye everyone
[17:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	hmm, that was anothr good oh
[17:09]	Harry Laloix:	Hello everybody.
[17:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	im getting to like this there falcon
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	He's a total BS'ing fanboi, lol
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew and Simon are more honest
[17:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	but he has andrew and simon to remind him of realities
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, I noticed Andrew correcting him a few times
[17:11]	lonetorus Habilis:	but he is quite energized
[17:11]	lonetorus Habilis:	i like that
[17:11]	HeidiHo Halberstadt:	Do you suppose they listen in to your critiques afterward?
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yes, that's good. But it can also be bad if he goes off in poor directions.
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nah
[17:12]	lonetorus Habilis:	like his nearly killing volumedetect on megas?
[17:12]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	They barely listen here :P
[17:12]	HeidiHo Halberstadt:	:-)
[17:12]	HeidiHo Halberstadt:	WHen is next?
[17:12]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, im not so concerned about what i say
[17:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	i know they cant keep me out of their platform ;)
[17:13]	HeidiHo Halberstadt:	next forum?
[17:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	i cant click my office hud
[17:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	The only people able to effect change don't hold OHs, so what we say has very little effect
[17:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	ask someone to gve you the office hud
[17:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	but andrews thought that devs will have more pushback power now
[17:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	after reorg
[17:14]	Latif Khalifa:	i like that andrew was positive about the restructuring (except the scripting bit).
[17:14]	Latif Khalifa:	he thinks that devs will get mroe power in the new structure
[17:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, the proof is in the pudding
[17:14]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, we'll see
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	If you consider that AW Groupies promotes interop all day long, and yet LL just dropped support for interop, it kind of shows how much impact we have where it matters :P
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Devs should have a stronger voice, since there are so few, now?
[17:15]	Latif Khalifa:	i got to go, take care people
[17:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Latif
[17:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	see ya latif
[17:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	morg, yeah but interop was seen as a timesink by upper magmnt
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's Zero working on?
[17:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	Post M
[17:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero got fired

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