User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 25

Transcript of Which Linden's office hours:

[11:12]	Which Linden:	As usualy, I'll be putting up a transcript, so, you know, say hi to the intrepid wiki wanderer
[11:12]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hi! ,)
[11:12]	Donovan Linden:	hi intrepid wiki wanderer
[11:12]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if anyone else sees him as sitting above the chair...
[11:12]	Zha Ewry:	Heh. The one a week how's able to get the page to load
[11:12]	Which Linden:	Yeah, Sai, that's a tiny chair
[11:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah...
[11:13]	Which Linden:	Wow, I need to get more seats
[11:13]	Zha Ewry:	There. free seat ;-)
[11:14]	Which Linden:	So, topic possibilities for today: tracing through a login process in some detail (current or future), or discussing the stuff that's going on in evnetlet/mulib
[11:14]	Zha Ewry:	mulib?
[11:14]	Zha Ewry votes, softly for mulib
[11:14]	Which Linden:	I tend to talk a lot at these things so it'd be cool to switch it up a bit and have you all drive the discussion for a bit
[11:14]	Which Linden:	Mulib sounds awesome, and it's good timing that Donovan is here
[11:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	which is mulib?
[11:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or Which, what is mulib...
[11:15]	Which Linden:	Mulib is a RESTful web services library
[11:15]	Which Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mulib
[11:16]	Which Linden:	I guess at its most essential it exposes a hierarchical data structure over a REST interface
[11:17]	Which Linden:	Take a look at these examples: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mulib/Examples
[11:17]	Which Linden:	The stacked example is especially elegant
[11:18]	Donovan Linden:	man the wiki is slow
[11:18]	Zha Ewry:	I was about to say, "It might be, if it loaded"
[11:18]	Which Linden:	Man, worked for me
[11:18]	Zha Ewry:	The wiki.. is intense pain
[11:18]	Zha Ewry:	Currently, seems to shed, about 2/3 of requests
[11:19]	Zha Ewry:	Ah. There it goes
[11:19]	Which Linden:	Ugh, if anyone wants to come up with analysis of where it's fucking up, please send that along
[11:19]	Which Linden:	We don't host it, but we could pass that information on to our hosting providers
[11:20]	Zha Ewry:	Rob Linden's been looking into it, too
[11:21]	Which Linden:	So, yeah, the stacked traversal is pretty neat in that you can make those dict keys appear as url segments, and the response to a request will be the valu of the key
[11:21]	Tao Takashi:	Hi
[11:21]	Tillie Ariantho:	hey Tao. Have a cold? :D
[11:21]	Which Linden:	This is pretty new stuff, though, I don't think we use this capability very much yet internally
[11:21]	Which Linden:	Hey tao
[11:21]	Tao Takashi:	trying to prevent a cold, getting cold these days ;-)
[11:21]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hi Tao
[11:22]	Donovan Linden:	hey tao
[11:22]	Which Linden:	Hello Gareth
[11:22]	Tao Takashi:	Hi Donovan, Which, Pulse!
[11:22]	Tao Takashi:	Hi gareth
[11:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey all
[11:22]	Zha Ewry:	/its write, so when you put a term it gets added to the dictionary?
[11:22]	Which Linden:	man, the groupies are all here, it seems
[11:23]	Which Linden:	Yes, Zha
[11:23]	Which Linden:	Exactly
[11:23]	Gareth Ellison:	hi
[11:23]	Tao Takashi:	Which: I will do that egg tutorial this weekend :-)
[11:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	turtle is mute
[11:23]	Zha Ewry:	What happens when you put the second term, on the same node?
[11:23]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hi Gareth
[11:23]	Zha Ewry:	(same URL segment)
[11:23]	Gareth Ellison:	so i heard this was a talk about mulib
[11:23]	Which Linden:	Looking forward to it, Tao
[11:23]	Which Linden:	Zha: putting a second time is a replace
[11:23]	Gareth Ellison:	i been pimping mulib
[11:23]	Donovan Linden:	zha: you mean to the same leaf? it overwrites, standard PUT semantics
[11:23]	Gareth Ellison:	anyone got logs?
[11:24]	Zha Ewry debates if that's fully idempoitent for a long moment
[11:24]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, it is
[11:24]	Which Linden:	I think it is from the perspective of the putter
[11:24]	Which Linden:	put-er?
[11:24]	Donovan Linden:	it is, because requests are atomic, and each one replaces that branch of the tree
[11:24]	Zha Ewry:	Not sure what happens with two putters
[11:24]	Which Linden:	You can have strange results if two different parties try to put to the ame url
[11:24]	Zha Ewry:	I think one could argue, that the second putter, is giong to be surprised
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the golf game takes a long time?
[11:24]	Gareth Ellison:	Donovan: python dicts and mulib - secure or not?
[11:25]	Donovan Linden:	last put from the perspective of the server wins
[11:25]	Zha Ewry:	That, I'm not quite so sure is idempoitent
[11:25]	Gareth Ellison:	since any client can send DELETEs
[11:25]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: I wouldn't put this server anywhere untrusted input could be generated
[11:25]	Which Linden:	Well, that's sort of an interesting question about idempotency
[11:25]	Donovan Linden:	if I wanted to allow direct access to it, it would be through a proxy that disallows PUT and DELETE
[11:25]	Zha Ewry:	Once *could* argue that the put, once accepted.. creates a new resource, and the old one should reject futrther puts which are diffeernet
[11:25]	Gareth Ellison:	what practical uses does mulib have with a python dict rather than mu.Resource?
[11:26]	Zha Ewry:	Not sure I would, mind you, but one could
[11:26]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: using normal python types just turns out to be really convenient
[11:26]	Which Linden:	Hmm.... yeah
[11:26]	Donovan Linden:	especially if your user intefaces are talking json or llsd
[11:26]	Which Linden:	Yeah, the dict is just a great example
[11:27]	Zha Ewry:	Its super, because we get right down to brass tacks and questions
[11:27]	Donovan Linden:	another feature of stacked is that it does content negotiation, so you can ask for it in json or llsd and the storage is still native python types
[11:27]	Gareth Ellison:	actually, come to think of it, using a dict for the sitemap.... there isn't a chance that could allow people to run DELETEs against parts of it is there?
[11:27]	Tao Takashi:	in Zope we also moved from custom types back to normal python structures
[11:27]	Tao Takashi:	it just makes more sense :)
[11:27]	Gareth Ellison:	i may have just found a nasty bug in my code....
[11:27]	Which Linden:	I think it's also useful if you have a node that has small amounts of data that maps really well to a python data structure. So, you use the Resource for the high-level stuff, then hang off dicts or lists or whateveer
[11:28]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: yeah, people can probably arbitrarily change your server :) use a Resource as the root to know exactly what is going on, and don't call stacked.consume
[11:28]	Which Linden:	Isn't that the point of mud? That you can just mess with it?
[11:28]	Gareth Ellison:	now you tell me.....
[11:28]	Donovan Linden:	yeah, we should tell people that in brighter bigger letters
[11:28]	Gareth Ellison:	nobody run my code in a production environment please!
[11:29]	Which Linden:	ha ha
[11:29]	Tao Takashi:	ooops! *stopping servers*
[11:29]	Gareth Ellison:	lol
[11:29]	Donovan Linden:	anyway, a wrapper which disallows DELETE and PUT will solve it
[11:29]	Zha Ewry waits for the simualtor to quietely halt
[11:29]	Gareth Ellison:	yeah - i have such a wrapper
[11:29]	Which Linden:	It's not a huge security hole that will get you 0wned, you could just lose all your data!~
[11:29]	Donovan Linden:	and give yourself an unwrapped server pointing at the same tree, on an internal private port
[11:29]	Saijanai Kuhn fades into NULL
[11:29]	Tao Takashi:	some security layer should be involved anyway, shouldn't it?
[11:29]	Gareth Ellison:	i called it muauth
[11:30]	Which Linden:	Also you don't have to have a dict as the top-level object
[11:30]	Gareth Ellison:	Donovan - eventlet.httpc needs support for HTTP auth btw
[11:30]	Donovan Linden:	if you have a Resource as the root, you control all the behavior exactly
[11:30]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: yes it does. please add it ;)
[11:30]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: true, it's more convienient but less secure
[11:30]	Gareth Ellison:	Donovan: you're a lazy fool and ok
[11:31]	Donovan Linden:	hehe. if you don't someone will someday
[11:31]	Gareth Ellison:	heh
[11:31]	Which Linden:	Hm.... yeah, Sardonyx has been doing a lot of work on httpc in making it respond properly when it gets a status code that requires a second request to resolve
[11:32]	Gareth Ellison:	ideally should be able to do something like myobj = llsd.parse(myclient.get("http://user:password@server/bla"))
[11:32]	Which Linden:	We have a list here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Certified_HTTP#Status_Codes but honeslty most of those are httpc behaviors, so I should move that list to the eventlet page
[11:32]	Tao Takashi wonders if Which visited a local user group meeting already ;-)
[11:33]	Gareth Ellison:	so, is there a c-http implementation available yet?
[11:33]	Donovan Linden:	is all this development happening in the public svn? I need to get on that commit list
[11:33]	Donovan Linden:	which do you know where it is?
[11:33]	Tao Takashi:	is there a commit list? public? :)
[11:34]	Which Linden:	Oh, there oughta be!
[11:34]	Which Linden:	I'll ping rob and ask how it's done for the main linden commit list
[11:34]	Tao Takashi:	looks public: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/eventlet/timeline
[11:35]	Which Linden:	Can follow this manually too: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/certified_http/browser
[11:35]	Gareth Ellison:	cool
[11:35]	Which Linden:	Oh, the timeline: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/certified_http/timeline
[11:35]	Donovan Linden:	maybe we should try sardonyx's mercurial import tool so that we can more easily accept patches from the community?
[11:35]	Which Linden:	What's the tool do?
[11:35]	Tao Takashi:	I still think you should simply open up the svn ;-)
[11:36]	Tao Takashi:	not to everybody of course
[11:36]	Donovan Linden:	continually imports svn into an hg repo
[11:36]	Donovan Linden:	bah, centralised revision control is a pain :P
[11:36]	Gareth Ellison:	why not just have a public SVN repo which is read-only to all and commit access for lindens?
[11:36]	Which Linden:	We do have that, Gareth
[11:36]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: that is what we have
[11:36]	Donovan Linden:	for eventlet and mulib
[11:36]	Tao Takashi:	I would even say with commit access for selected developers
[11:36]	Which Linden:	and certified http
[11:36]	Tao Takashi:	like e.g. Gareth ;-)
[11:36]	Which Linden:	we even have that, tao
[11:37]	Which Linden:	I'm not sure how you get on the list, though
[11:37]	Gareth Ellison:	so what's the issue? accept patches from people, and allow select devs in the community to get commit access
[11:37]	Donovan Linden:	submit good patches, probably
[11:37]	Tao Takashi:	sounds like a good criteria ;-)
[11:37]	Gareth Ellison:	where do we submit patches? JIRA?
[11:37]	Which Linden:	Yeah, my doors are open here, if you want to tackle the code, please do
[11:37]	Which Linden:	You can email me for now.
[11:37]	Gareth Ellison:	i still need to sign a contributor agreement
[11:37]	Donovan Linden:	and me
[11:37]	Which Linden:	Although we do have chttp in jira
[11:37]	Tao Takashi:	it would even be nice to have the trac bugtracker available as it integrates nicely
[11:37]	Gareth Ellison:	i hereby sign over my soul to LL
[11:37]	Which Linden:	and eventlet and mulib, acutally
[11:38]	Which Linden:	yeah, so, use jira instead of emailing us, actually
[11:38]	Which Linden:	that way we have an audit trail or whatever
[11:38]	Gareth Ellison:	Trac is looking more stable than JIRA as of late
[11:38]	Tao Takashi:	but you might want to have all your bugs in a central place
[11:38]	Which Linden:	Yeah, I dunno, I'm not gonna bitch if I get a patch, even if it's by carrier pigeon
[11:38]	Gareth Ellison:	i think unless everything switches to Trac, JIRA is where it'll be at
[11:38]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: i've gotta hire a carrier pigeon now!
[11:39]	Gareth Ellison:	i wonder if i can run SVN over IP over carrier pigeon
[11:39]	Tao Takashi:	if it only would be faster ;-)
[11:39]	Which Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CHTTP is teh certified http project
[11:39]	Gareth Ellison:	quick query - who in the community's been working on mulib?
[11:39]	Tao Takashi:	somehow all the collaboration tools are sort of slow
[11:40]	Which Linden:	Yeah, well, Trac is fast! Cause we don't collaborate with it
[11:40]	Tao Takashi:	well, trac is fast for our Plone community
[11:40]	Which Linden:	Gareth: nobody outside of Linden has contributed
[11:40]	Tao Takashi:	I am not sure how much non-developers use Jira
[11:40]	Which Linden:	We need to do a better job of getting people interested in helping develop
[11:40]	Gareth Ellison:	i've heard a few people have played with getting it to work on windows
[11:40]	Tao Takashi:	but the Plone developer community definitely is bigger than the SL one
[11:41]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: when i sign an agreement i'll integrate my crazy extensions and submit a patch
[11:41]	Donovan Linden:	one thing that might help is for lindens to pair with people from the community that want to learn or develop something small and useful
[11:41]	Which Linden:	Sounds awesome, Gareth
[11:41]	Tao Takashi:	you should do sprints :)
[11:41]	Donovan Linden:	yeah sprints would be great
[11:41]	Donovan Linden:	in-world sprints?
[11:41]	Which Linden:	Yeah, I'm going to push someone to get a sandbox host set up that we can all have logins to
[11:41]	Gareth Ellison:	so, who at LL do i need to send an envelope filled with my soul and vital force to?
[11:41]	Tao Takashi:	not sure they would work good in-world
[11:41]	Tao Takashi:	esp. pair programming
[11:42]	Gareth Ellison:	pair programming remotely sounds painful
[11:42]	Donovan Linden:	we do in-world pair programming all day long. voice is kind of necessary though
[11:42]	Which Linden:	We do that a lot internally. Voice + multiuser screen is amazing
[11:42]	Donovan Linden:	we use sl voice and gnu screen
[11:42]	Donovan Linden:	and I have plans to develop a web-based multiuser terminal
[11:42]	Hypatia Callisto:	ooo cool
[11:42]	Zha Ewry:	The gnu screen isn't in world, right?
[11:42]	Gareth Ellison:	Zha: duh
[11:42]	Which Linden:	Donovan: call it "mut"
[11:43]	Zha Ewry nods
[11:43]	Tao Takashi:	sounds cool :)
[11:43]	Donovan Linden:	no, but a web-based terminal could be
[11:43]	Tao Takashi:	you should nevertheless think also of RL sprints :)
[11:43]	Gareth Ellison:	in-world pair programming would rock
[11:43]	Zha Ewry:	Aye..
[11:43]	Tao Takashi:	maybe also in the context of some conference to attract new people
[11:43]	Zha Ewry is just drolling for the rich collab tool to be in world troo
[11:44]	Which Linden:	We could get someone to write an overhyped article about Agile XP Web 2.0 in SL. Next: world domination!
[11:44]	Tao Takashi:	implement that in-client web browser! ;-)
[11:44]	Tao Takashi:	like onrez
[11:44]	Gareth Ellison:	Tao: there's already a web browser in the viewer
[11:44]	Donovan Linden:	I hope onrez convinces the ui team to turn on the browser
[11:44]	Which Linden:	I haven't actually seen theirs, but we definitely have that capability already
[11:45]	Gareth Ellison:	i like to view my own profile, point to a random webpage and then switch it back
[11:45]	Which Linden:	You can hax it by setting the F1 help url to Google or something
[11:45]	Wyn Galbraith is using OnRez's viewer now
[11:45]	Tao Takashi:	well, it would be cooll not to have open up firefox all the time
[11:45]	Which Linden:	or your profile, that's a good one
[11:45]	Gareth Ellison:	profile window is a bit tiny though
[11:45]	Tao Takashi:	I know, Which, but it would also be cool to be able to control it via LSL
[11:45]	Which Linden:	Can only visit iphone-optimized web sites
[11:45]	Gareth Ellison:	if there was an SSH client and firefox in the viewer i'd leave it on 24/7
[11:45]	Tao Takashi:	llLoadURL() might simply open that up
[11:46]	Tao Takashi:	I know that basically all the stuff is in the client
[11:46]	Tao Takashi:	that's why I thought should it make easy to make a panel around it and while we don#t have HTML/prim yet we would at least be able to redirect people to websites more easily
[11:46]	Which Linden:	totally
[11:46]	Donovan Linden:	here is the web based terminal I have been trying to get working
[11:46]	Donovan Linden:	http://play1.pypy.org/
[11:46]	Tao Takashi:	PyPy FTW!
[11:47]	Which Linden:	We'll tell you how it performs under load, Donovan
[11:47]	Which Linden:	:-)
[11:47]	Donovan Linden:	...except I haven't been able to get it to work ;P
[11:47]	Gareth Ellison:	Donovan: heard of js/uix?
[11:47]	Tao Takashi:	see, one sprint topic for the next EuroPython :)
[11:48]	Which Linden:	There is this: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mressl/webshell/
[11:48]	Tao Takashi:	maybe getting it to run earlier would be nice though ;-)
[11:48]	Gareth Ellison:	google for js/uix
[11:48]	Donovan Linden:	but yeah the implementation is insane, it's in python and uses pypy to translate it to javascript
[11:48]	Gareth Ellison:	it's a *nix OS in a browser complete with real filesystem and vi port
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	btw, the CSI viewer automatically reroutes chat inks to the internal browser
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	chat links*
[11:48]	Gareth Ellison:	that rocks
[11:48]	Which Linden:	That's ssmart
[11:49]	Gareth Ellison:	it shouldn't be too much work to just open a new floater with a web browser widget when you click a link
[11:49]	Which Linden opens a jira
[11:49]	Tao Takashi:	now if the onrez viewer would only be open source ;-)
[11:49]	Donovan Linden:	is javascript the next assembly language?
[11:49]	Gareth Ellison:	anyone want to go and hack up a patch for that?
[11:49]	Which Linden:	No dude, C++ is the next assemply language
[11:49]	Gareth Ellison:	really - the code's already there (help window etc)
[11:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	which brings up the question: why isn't it. Thought GPL said anything based on GPL code was GPL
[11:50]	Which Linden:	Yeah, I'd help shepherd such a patch through
[11:50]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes! I thought so too...
[11:50]	Tao Takashi:	Sai: I think they have a special license
[11:50]	Gareth Ellison:	Saijanai: ESC got a commercial license
[11:50]	Which Linden:	We gave them a commercial license
[11:50]	Tao Takashi:	which was a bit confusing at Robin's office hour
[11:50]	Gareth Ellison:	heh
[11:50]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: RMS wants your head on a plate for that
[11:50]	Tao Takashi:	it sounded there as if everybody would need a special license to distribute a viewer
[11:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	.... wondering at how that works, but whatever. Only person who could bring a suit would be holder of hte GPL license, which is LL
[11:51]	Gareth Ellison:	Saijanai: the copyright holder can release code under any license
[11:51]	Tao Takashi:	that's what the contributor agreements are for
[11:51]	Which Linden:	Richard Stallman is apparently afraid of potted plants. >:-)
[11:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, OK.
[11:51]	Tao Takashi:	well, I would still think it would be cooler to have onrez as open source :)
[11:52]	Which Linden:	Yeah, so, back to mulib
[11:52]	Gareth Ellison:	Tao: so do i, let's pressure ESC
[11:52]	Tao Takashi:	and I hope LL is not distributing too many of these licenses
[11:52]	Gareth Ellison:	and yeah, get back to mulib
[11:52]	Tao Takashi:	I commented on their blog about that
[11:52]	Tao Takashi:	ok, mulib :)
[11:52]	Which Linden:	we have strayed from our topic
[11:52]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: continue....
[11:52]	Which Linden:	We should put up some more examples of overriding methods on mu.Resource
[11:52]	Which Linden:	it's very powerful
[11:53]	Which Linden:	The methods you'll want to look at are: childFactory, findChild, and willHandle
[11:53]	Tao Takashi looks
[11:53]	Which Linden:	findChild allows you to completely replace the traversal logic
[11:53]	Zha Ewry:	Whiich a few worked examples, including the actual fully packed http request that comes out, woudl be cool
[11:54]	Tao Takashi:	maybe those packages should also be namespace packages
[11:54]	Which Linden:	Namespace packages?
[11:54]	Gareth Ellison:	i'd die a slow death without findChild
[11:54]	Tao Takashi:	so you can do import lindenlab.mulib
[11:54]	Which Linden:	Zha: agree, gotta find the time
[11:54]	Tao Takashi:	and import lindenlab.eventlet
[11:54]	Which Linden:	bah, the lindenlab would be superfluous, I think
[11:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Hey Azreal welocme. This is an office meeting. You're welcome to sit in but its pretty geeky
[11:54]	Tao Takashi:	where lindenlab is a namespace and they don't need to be in the same directory
[11:54]	Zha Ewry:	Do you have a few publically viisble endpoints out there?
[11:54]	Which Linden:	Zha: no, though we should try to mke some
[11:54]	Hypatia Callisto thinks Azreal has the wrong place :)
[11:55]	Which Linden:	as noted, it's not the most secure
[11:55]	Tao Takashi:	well, it's still nice to be able to group things together.. eggs are also supporting this
[11:55]	Zha Ewry:	I'd love to poke at them with a few tools, and show how to invoke it from several languages
[11:55]	Zha Ewry:	Chuckle.
[11:55]	Zha Ewry:	Good point
[11:55]	Gareth Ellison:	eggs are needed, python distutils good
[11:55]	Tao Takashi:	cheeseshop also :)
[11:55]	Azrael Schmooz:	just fling around. lookin at shit.
[11:55]	Which Linden:	Once we had this magical sandbox server we could set up some demo apps
[11:55]	Gareth Ellison:	i've been pondering how to integrate mulib with mono somehow
[11:56]	Gareth Ellison:	could then put it into opensim
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you'd need a clientside mono I think unless the server code gets opensourced first
[11:56]	Tao Takashi:	I would definitely like more docstrings also :) and some doctests inside them maybe
[11:56]	Gareth Ellison:	right now i've been using PyODE and streaming object updates
[11:56]	Which Linden:	Oh man, if mulib was the rest framework of choice for the simulator?!?! Rad
[11:56]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: i got a basic sim doing that
[11:56]	Gareth Ellison:	very hackish but it works
[11:57]	Gareth Ellison:	basically just hacked a PyODE example and put all the object updates over streamlet
[11:57]	Gareth Ellison:	streamlet == my HTTP event streaming system based on mulib
[11:57]	Which Linden:	I've been going around adding docstrings, Tao, doctests may be next. It's actually hard to write doctests because there is so much setup before the methods are usefeul
[11:58]	Tao Takashi:	btw, I found some presentation about long living http connections the other day
[11:58]	Gareth Ellison:	i think more sample code is a definate must
[11:58]	Gareth Ellison:	Tao: short summary?
[11:58]	Tao Takashi:	Which: yep, I know that problem. But once you have that setup they are quite nice
[11:58]	Gareth Ellison:	my system just pauses on a GET request before returning content
[11:58]	Tao Takashi:	and then you can also write the tests first :)
[11:58]	Tao Takashi:	Gareth: http://dev.comlounge.net/uncategorized/long-lived-http-connection/
[11:58]	Gareth Ellison:	and then if you time out, you hit GET again
[11:59]	Gareth Ellison:	and while offline it queues events server side
[11:59]	Gareth Ellison:	Tao: send me that link on IRC to avoid teh lag
[11:59]	Which Linden:	You probably don't want to do that for GETs, Gareth, because they might be cached
[11:59]	Tao Takashi:	we also had some demonstration based on AJAX at the Plone Conference
[11:59]	Which Linden:	Do them for POSTs instead
[11:59]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: should probably send a no-cache header
[12:00]	Tao Takashi:	Plone initiated a website and a twisted server was then sending AJAX like updates to the browser
[12:00]	Gareth Ellison:	a POST doesn't feel right
[12:00]	Tao Takashi:	isn't it changing data? I would think POST instead of GET
[12:00]	Which Linden:	yeah, but it has the properties you want (i.e. some intermediate proxy won't cache it)
[12:01]	Gareth Ellison:	true, but a proxy shouldn't cache it with GET and the right headers either
[12:01]	Which Linden:	Fair enough
[12:01]	Which Linden:	Take a look at how eventrouter does it, if you want an example
[12:01]	Tao Takashi:	some have some have evil refresh_pattern configurations ;-)
[12:02]	Gareth Ellison:	i suppose really using HTTP for event streams is a silly hack anyway
[12:02]	Tao Takashi:	sounds like everybody is going to do it though, even on the web ;-)
[12:02]	Tao Takashi:	AJAX is a hack, too ;-)
[12:03]	Gareth Ellison:	true
[12:03]	Tao Takashi:	the world is based on hacks, except Python of course
[12:03]	Which Linden:	Ha!
[12:03]	Gareth Ellison:	i can't help thinking that a custom TCP protocol or a new HTTP verb is saner
[12:03]	Donovan Linden:	python is a hack, that's why it works
[12:03]	Gareth Ellison:	perhaps a new HTTP verb like GETEVENTS
[12:03]	Which Linden:	Well, Donovan I recall was pushing to make HTTP be bidirectional
[12:03]	Which Linden:	HTTP 2.0 that is
[12:03]	Gareth Ellison:	python is clean
[12:03]	Tao Takashi:	I meant stuff based on python actually :)
[12:03]	Tao Takashi:	Zope2 is a hack though ;-)
[12:03]	Tao Takashi:	but Zope3 isn't
[12:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	can things be designed so that you can replace the protocol if something saner comes along?
[12:04]	Donovan Linden:	gareth: there already is an rfc for one: the SELECT verb
[12:04]	Gareth Ellison:	Donovan: which RFC?
[12:04]	Donovan Linden:	dunno, just search for http select
[12:05]	Gareth Ellison:	Mr HTTP himself doesn't know?
[12:05]	Tao Takashi:	Donovan invented HTTP? :)
[12:05]	Which Linden:	Donovan IS HTTP
[12:05]	Gareth Ellison:	no, Donovan just coded lots of HTTP-related stuff in python
[12:05]	Gareth Ellison:	there's a verb named after him
[12:05]	Gareth Ellison:	DONOVAN /resource
[12:06]	Gareth Ellison:	makes the webserver return a l33t python hacker
[12:06]	Which Linden:	Hah
[12:06]	Tao Takashi:	I should use that method more
[12:07]	Gareth Ellison:	the current event polling over CAPs - does that work using PSOT?
[12:07]	Gareth Ellison:	POST
[12:07]	Which Linden:	Check this out and add comments for where we should add examples: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/EVT-7
[12:08]	Tao Takashi:	Hope to have time to take a closer look into eventlet etc. at the weekend
[12:08]	Which Linden:	Yeah, it does, Gareth
[12:08]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: does it queue things server-side while waiting for a client reconnect or does it just keep the connection alive?
[12:08]	Which Linden:	OK, that previous JIRA was for EVentlet, not mulib
[12:09]	Which Linden:	Use this one: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MU-13
[12:09]	Tao Takashi:	is there some CAPS example on the wiki somewhere actually?
[12:09]	Which Linden:	Gareth, it queues them
[12:09]	Tao Takashi:	the page about it seems to be a bit short ;-)
[12:09]	Which Linden:	Not sure Tao, I haven't seen one
[12:09]	Gareth Ellison:	Which: where's it implemented? if it's in llmessage i want to know about it
[12:09]	Tao Takashi:	maybe more examples would help here, too. maybe even in the context of the new architecture and where it could be used
[12:09]	Which Linden:	er, hmmm... not sure.... it might not even be open source
[12:10]	Which Linden:	casuse it's the simulator doing it
[12:10]	Gareth Ellison:	i would guess it isn't if it's not in llmessage or llcommon
[12:10]	Tao Takashi:	simply open source the simulator :)
[12:10]	Which Linden:	the cap just directs the connection to the simulator
[12:10]	Gareth Ellison:	i've noticed llmessage contains a lot of server-side code
[12:10]	Which Linden:	Yes, we're working on it
[12:10]	Which Linden:	There is a lot of shared code there
[12:11]	Gareth Ellison:	like llversionserver.h and LLHTTPNode?
[12:11]	Which Linden:	yup
[12:11]	Gareth Ellison:	the latter being very useful for building an httpd
[12:11]	Which Linden:	LLHTTPNode is nice, it's philosophically close to mulib
[12:11]	Gareth Ellison:	very close
[12:11]	Gareth Ellison:	it feels like a C++ port
[12:12]	Which Linden:	Hey, well, I gotta duck out of here, and I'm sure you all have interesting things to do in Second Life
[12:12]	Gareth Ellison:	:O
[12:12]	Tao Takashi:	not really
[12:12]	Gareth Ellison:	i have nothing interesting to do except discuss how to rewrite it
[12:12]	Tao Takashi:	just waiting for the next office hour then ;-)
[12:12]	Which Linden:	Thanks for a cool conversation today. Please comment on those two JIRA tasks I sent out
[12:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks, bye...
[12:12]	Tao Takashi:	thanks for hosting :)
[12:13]	Donovan Linden:	yeah thanks everybody, it was great
[12:13]	Gareth Ellison:	come to think of it, in RL i spend my time talking about how to rewrite it too so to speak
[12:13]	Which Linden:	My pleasure! You all are always awesome.
[12:13]	Which Linden:	We out.
[12:13]	Hypatia Callisto:	ok thanks!