User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jun 26

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  • [11:04] BlueWall Slade: i spent a little thime there on opening day, it was hard to get arround
  • [11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: which online
  • [11:05] BlueWall Slade: i do want to go explore it a bit
  • [11:05] JayR Cela: anyone here using RC11?
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: yeah, I had a hard time getting in some sims
  • [11:05] BlueWall Slade: i am
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: I am
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: heh
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: ok Which, you win
  • [11:05] JayR Cela: I am using the Win & Linux versions
  • [11:05] Which Linden: What did I win?
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: that's the oddest looking avi I've ever seen
  • [11:05] BlueWall Slade: it is working very good for me on linux
  • [11:05] JayR Cela: they both seem pretty stable
  • [11:05] Johan Laurasia: you win the 'oddest looking avie'
  • [11:06] BlueWall Slade: hehe
  • [11:06] Which Linden: Ha ha, thanks, but there's way more out there
  • [11:06] JayR Cela: hi there Which :_)
  • [11:06] Which Linden: There's a giant angry tree somking a doobie av
  • [11:06] Johan Laurasia: that's cool, I want to break off a piece and start smokin' it
  • [11:06] Johan Laurasia: lol
  • [11:06] Which Linden: Hi JayR nice to see you
  • [11:06] BlueWall Slade: lol
  • [11:06] JayR Cela:  :_)
  • [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: so what's the topic for today WHich?
  • [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: readies his spammaker
  • [11:07] Which Linden: Hm.
  • [11:07] Which Linden: Suggestions?
  • [11:07] JayR Cela: i take you home & hide you in the garden / then you can startle the neighbors / lol :_)
  • [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: we had a nice itnerop discussion at Zero's this morning: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_June_26
  • [11:07] Teravus Ousley: pulls out a 16 tooth gear from Sajanai's spammer
  • [11:07] Lalinda Lovell: how will people be affected if they are banned on one grid but not another?
  • [11:07] Lalinda Lovell: a lot of people ask me that
  • [11:07] Which Linden: Zero's on vacation though yeah?
  • [11:08] Johan Laurasia: yeah
  • [11:08] Which Linden: Oh, I see, Hamilton took over
  • [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: that is an itneresting questin. Does "trust" cover banning?
  • [11:08] Which Linden: Hamilton is a great fellow
  • [11:08] Teravus Ousley: well, presumably.. a 'grid' ban will be implemented in the Agent Domain.
  • [11:08] BlueWall Slade: yeah, probably the last one he will get for a while, lol
  • [11:09] Which Linden: We can talk about inter-grid banning as our topic, that sounds ok to me
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL intergrid banning and related topics
  • [11:09] Lalinda Lovell: some people are perm banned in sl, and have new names on other grids,
  • [11:09] Which Linden: Yeah, well it's not like they can't get new names on SL with a bit of effort either
  • [11:09] Lalinda Lovell: technically they would not be allowed into sl with any account
  • [11:09] Johan Laurasia: true, is true banning even really possible?
  • [11:10] Effie's HUD: 0.8 [script:Visitors 0.1]: Script run-time error
  • [11:10] Effie's HUD: 0.8 [script:Visitors 0.1]: Stack-Heap Collision
  • [11:10] Lalinda Lovell: no its not
  • [11:10] Lalinda Lovell: however
  • [11:10] Which Linden: Is it desirable?
  • [11:10] Lalinda Lovell: which, the gteam do try and keep perm banned people perm banned
  • [11:10] Johan Laurasia: I would think maybe in a few cases
  • [11:10] Lalinda Lovell: though personally i think its pointless
  • [11:10] Johan Laurasia: but generally, no
  • [11:11] FWord Utorid: you can ban a name and an ip but never saijanai kuhn and his criminal organization
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Like I don't want to be banned from the entire metaverse just cause I was banned from 18th-Century Prude Grid for baring my ankles
  • [11:11] Lalinda Lovell: right
  • [11:11] Teravus Ousley: well, one way things could be more effective.. would be a way to 'link' one account to another on grids.. it would make things more convenient for users and add a level of extra banning level.
  • [11:11] Johan Laurasia: gasps bare ankles...
  • [11:12] Tao Takashi: Hi!
  • [11:12] Which Linden: I feel that banning is, to a certain degree, inherently unscaleable
  • [11:12] Lalinda Lovell: but who will be in charge of these decisions, coders like you, or the metapolice like gteam mentality?
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: I would think it would be a per grid or per sim issue
  • [11:12] Teravus Ousley: .. the linking would be a small link.. I suppose .. just a reference.. more then anything for their client..
  • [11:12] Which Linden: The ideal, of course, would be to set up the system so that there was no need to ban someone, because they couldn't do anything pan-worth
  • [11:12] Which Linden: ban-worthy
  • [11:12] Teravus Ousley: well, we don't really have a 'grid domain' per say.
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: But that is where trust and so on comes into play. Does "trust" include enforcing ban lists?
  • [11:12] Lalinda Lovell: i agree
  • [11:13] Teravus Ousley: .. we have a region domain and an agent domain.
  • [11:13] FWord Utorid: which, wouldn't making it so you could never do anything ban worthy make it... boring?
  • [11:13] Lalinda Lovell: people will expect in the future to be able to tp from one grid into the next
  • [11:13] Which Linden: Probably, FWord
  • [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: only for those into Griefplay, fword...
  • [11:13] FWord Utorid: you will need to tone it down, sai
  • [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry if I caused you any greif, fword
  • [11:14] Which Linden: So, an interesting parallel to banning is the Risk API
  • [11:14] Lalinda Lovell: the reasons for people being banned, if we look at them, many are preventable
  • [11:14] Teravus Ousley: Though, I agree, a grid domain would be a useful definition in the coming months as well.. since region domains tend to belong to grid domains.. even if it's just a standalone region, it's grid domain is itself
  • [11:14] Lalinda Lovell: no swear words used in certain places, block swear words
  • [11:15] Lalinda Lovell: people should use mute instead of whining what someone said
  • [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: for puroses of inter-grid TP and walking, it would have to be a separate "grid" even if its a single sim
  • [11:15] Teravus Ousley: haha, various services block 9000 new swear words a day.. and have been doing it at that rate for over a year.. people will make up new swear words.
  • [11:15] Which Linden: Yeah, see, even doing something as simple as blocking swear words is basically impossible as my inbox full of 'p3n!s' ads attests
  • [11:15] FWord Utorid: F |_| < |< banning swear words
  • [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: fraggin' right they will
  • [11:16] Johan Laurasia: lol
  • [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: which, because they dont matter
  • [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: they are made up jumble words, they arent offensive
  • [11:16] McCabe Maxsted: hehe, AOL even bans sentences that say bad things about AOL.... you can imagine how effective that has been
  • [11:16] Johan Laurasia: Yeah, I could always make a sign too
  • [11:16] FWord Utorid: there are more than enough ways to be obscene without that
  • [11:16] FWord Utorid: and yeah
  • [11:16] Johan Laurasia: or a T shirt.. etc
  • [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: _|_ AOL
  • [11:16] FWord Utorid: people who fear words fear trees and fish
  • [11:16] Tao Takashi: the same discussion is happening right now on seesmic, what content should be allowed
  • [11:17] FWord Utorid: all content should be allowed
  • [11:17] Tao Takashi: and now they blocked youtube uploads because of one guys posting nasty stuff all the time
  • [11:17] Tao Takashi: indeed
  • [11:17] Tao Takashi: but you should choose what you can see and what people you want to be with
  • [11:17] Lalinda Lovell: in sl theres too much dependency on crybaby tactics, i am broadly offended by xyz
  • [11:17] FWord Utorid: i find the crashing viewer broadly offensive
  • [11:17] Which Linden: Well, there's a whole discussion about teh technical nature of offensiveness, but the bottom line is if your system is powerful enough to communicate friendship it's powerful enough to irritate the shit out of someone
  • [11:17] Tao Takashi: something being offensive is quite relative
  • [11:17] JayR Cela: words can in them selves cause no physical harm / however they can incite violence that may lead to physical harm
  • [11:17] FWord Utorid: and people with heads make me angry
  • [11:18] BlueWall Slade: individuals, or some groups are a minor nuiscance
  • [11:18] Lalinda Lovell: if the metaverse gets cheaper, people can make their own places more easily, like an irc chat room, and sit in there do what they want, and other people wont have to care
  • [11:18] FWord Utorid: jayr, it's always the responsibility of the person to not do violence, not the responsibility of the loudmouth
  • [11:18] BlueWall Slade: how about financial, etc organizations that woo investors then run
  • [11:18] Zha Ewry: For the purposes of a protococol/technical discussion, I tink one can take as writ that there will be some requirements to manage access
  • [11:18] Teravus Ousley: One thing that's cool about managing a region.. you can block an IP or a range of IP addresses at your router..
  • [11:18] Lalinda Lovell: proxies
  • [11:18] Tao Takashi: so flickr has some sort of filters which lets you to some sort choose what you can see
  • [11:19] Tao Takashi: but of course with arbitrary content in a very open world that's also quite complicated to implement
  • [11:19] Which Linden: I agree Zha, there isn't much point to discussin specific of why you might want to do that
  • [11:19] FWord Utorid: if you really want to bypass that sort of security you can get a vps or rent a windows server, or use wifi
  • [11:19] Zha Ewry: At the protocol level, enable the tools and allow impleemnters to chose what ban rules they care to enforce
  • [11:19] Teravus Ousley: There are surprisingly few UDP proxies that at least the peaople we deal with in secondlife are capable of using.
  • [11:19] Teravus Ousley: .. the griefers that we deal with in secondlife..
  • [11:20] Teravus Ousley: .. generally the people who are capable of setting them up.. tend to also be intelligent enough to not be there simply to cause havok
  • [11:20] FWord Utorid: i don't advocate any form of misbehavior specifically but i don't think controlling people will ever work.
  • [11:20] Tao Takashi: unless there is more demand ;-)
  • [11:20] Lalinda Lovell: teravus i disagree on experience
  • [11:20] FWord Utorid: and if the system gets good enough to control people's behavior i will set it on fire
  • [11:20] Johan Laurasia: heh
  • [11:20] Which Linden: I think it would be ideal if the agent/region domains provided APIs for interchanging information about banlists, on an advisory basis only
  • [11:21] Teravus Ousley: well, for example.. The Patriotic Nigras tried to attack OSGrid last weekend.. but a lid was put on it really quickly
  • [11:21] Tao Takashi: I wonder if this might be an interesting topic to discuss for the Data Portability group
  • [11:21] Which Linden: What's the data portability group?
  • [11:21] Lalinda Lovell: these banlists are created by flawed people originally, ie they make mistakes, then person x ends up banned everywhere will no way to get removed
  • [11:21] Tao Takashi: once there is some misbehaviour of somebody on Facebook, should myspace have access to that data?
  • [11:21] Zha Ewry: I think that's the right sort of approach "Here is a list of items, here's the source, here's some metadata you cna use to decideif you want to accept it"
  • [11:21] Johan Laurasia: How was the lid put on it Teravus?
  • [11:21] Lalinda Lovell: tao yes thats another problem
  • [11:22] Johan Laurasia: what specifically did you do?
  • [11:22] Tao Takashi: dataportability.org, we think about how we can make social networks more interoperable and allow users to move their data from A to B with control in place
  • [11:22] FWord Utorid: control is evil
  • [11:22] Teravus Ousley: Blocked the creation of new accounts from specific IP addresses.
  • [11:22] Teravus Ousley: .. banned existing accounts.
  • [11:22] Charlesk Bing: They cleverly used names that identified them easily and allowed ipAddresses to be obtained and the software was modified to increase kicking easily and banning
  • [11:22] Tao Takashi: but there are issues with that IMHO, intuitively I would say I dislike such a thing like shared banlist
  • [11:23] Tao Takashi: you again need some way of trust in those lists of course
  • [11:23] Media Hax: which is more evil, Rabies, or the vaccine to control Rabies?
  • [11:23] Tao Takashi: I don't want to end up on one by accident
  • [11:23] Tao Takashi: and how do you get off that list again?
  • [11:23] FWord Utorid: ok. i have changed my position on types of content that should be allowed. people should not be allowed to have meetings to decide what other people can do. that should be against the rules.
  • [11:23] Lalinda Lovell: innocent people caught in the bans get very upset by it, and hardcore griefers dont care and find ways around it
  • [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: when someone else gets the lease for the IP
  • [11:23] Which Linden: Yeah false positives are badf
  • [11:23] Tao Takashi: so I would rather keep this in the implementation space for every agent/region domain to decide
  • [11:24] Tao Takashi: if there really is demand people can build a separate service on top of it anyway
  • [11:24] Charlesk Bing: Yes, that is certainly a problem with vigilantism.
  • [11:24] Johan Laurasia: IP bans dont really need to be permanant
  • [11:24] BlueWall Slade: one can also build in levels of access to their grid, with an isolated region to start new accounts in
  • [11:24] FWord Utorid: you can have groups of people making lists of people they think are bad, and you can ignore them
  • [11:24] Which Linden: I'm trying to find out more about the Risk API because it would be a good example, but I can't seem to find any docs
  • [11:24] Johan Laurasia: they could expire after a while
  • [11:24] Lalinda Lovell: a ban from the whole metaverse would be akin to the mythical 'banned from the internet'
  • [11:24] Tao Takashi: I also know why I am against any data retention laws and such, they have the same problem
  • [11:24] Which Linden: But anyway, let me throw this out as a strawman
  • [11:24] Tao Takashi: it's not mythical as I think France is banning people from the internet if they steal music repeatadly
  • [11:25] FWord Utorid: then france should start making people deaf that steal music
  • [11:25] Tao Takashi: i think though it is a-social ;-)
  • [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: There ARE issues with TP and walking between grids. TP wouldn't be too much of a problem, but what about walking. If Trusted Grd B bans avatar C, how does it refuse to let Avatar C walk from Trusted Grid A?
  • [11:25] Tao Takashi: what is a live in 10 years (or maybe now already) without access to the internet?
  • [11:25] FWord Utorid: and we should disregard france and kick it out of the united nations
  • [11:25] FWord Utorid: make them move france to the moon.
  • [11:26] Which Linden: The Ban API would work as a single yes/no answer to a POST that you submit to a web service, containing the information you have about the agent in question.
  • [11:26] Tao Takashi: so having that said I would like to leave such options out of the protocol
  • [11:26] Johan Laurasia: um, no we have dibs on the moon
  • [11:26] FWord Utorid: ok, the moon of karthos V then
  • [11:27] Which Linden: And so other grids interested in using the Ban API could, but ignore it if they wanted
  • [11:27] Tao Takashi: but there should be controls in place where individual land owners can define access
  • [11:27] Lalinda Lovell: ok can we agree thats theres at least 2 separate issues, the technical one of how the person will cross grids, and the practical one of how people are banned and if they are on a list
  • [11:27] FWord Utorid: did ibm ever open it's pandora's box of interop potential?
  • [11:27] FWord Utorid: or can we assume they will retain that code just to make us cry ourselves to sleep?
  • [11:27] Tao Takashi: really, if we want to create the next 3d internet there can be no banning IMHO
  • [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, they're related in that the technical issue has to allow fo rhte social oone in the first place
  • [11:28] FWord Utorid: tao, i disagree. people who think like that should be banned, just for fun.
  • [11:28] Johan Laurasia: there are plenty of websites where access is restricted
  • [11:28] Johan Laurasia: why not grids?
  • [11:28] Tao Takashi: yes, websites is ok
  • [11:28] Tao Takashi: but not the whole internet
  • [11:28] Lalinda Lovell: tao i agree in part, if there can be ways to restrict what people choose to see
  • [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: even if the social issue is optional, the technical has to allow fo rit if its going to exist at all
  • [11:28] Tao Takashi: websites don't talk to each other and tell each other what people to ban
  • [11:28] Lalinda Lovell: tao, occassionally they do
  • [11:28] Charlesk Bing: OSGrid's position is to stay frThere wil be anonymous logins for the 3d internet and authorized logins for some grids much like terrorists cannot expect to walk into the United Nations building without authority.
  • [11:28] Malburns Writer: yep - restrict sims maybe but not the platform itself
  • [11:28] Tao Takashi: yes, but it's not part of HTTP
  • [11:28] Lalinda Lovell: true
  • [11:28] Johan Laurasia: well, being banned from one grid is not begin banned from all, I think it should be up to each grid to decide weather to ban or not
  • [11:29] FWord Utorid: anyone who looks like they are typing in the air is a freak and will not be allowed on my opensim
  • [11:29] Johan Laurasia: rather than one giant shit list
  • [11:29] Tao Takashi: it should be under control of the domain owner IMHO
  • [11:29] Which Linden: Yeah I don't think any Ban API should be a protocol, it's just a service
  • [11:29] Tao Takashi: they can of course choose to collaborate with others
  • [11:29] Trinity Coulter: Which, speaking to your ban API, i assume that would be regarding the Second Life ToS, and other grids might not have the same terms or society, so it seems a bit overreaching to set up a system that depends on whatever the most restrictive of all the rules might be, since I can only assume if other grids had their own ban API, that SL would just add those people
  • [11:29] Which Linden: An optional service
  • [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Charlesk, sure. The question is, how to handle banning an avie which is on an adjacent grid who tries to walk into a new grid?
  • [11:29] FWord Utorid: what sort of wack goes around talking and moving their hands around in that fashion? obviously someone with a mental problem.
  • [11:30] Charlesk Bing: As a for instance, we banned the avatar name "S**t Face" this last weekend from OSGrid.
  • [11:30] Trinity Coulter: especiallly since its a simple "yes/no"
  • [11:30] Which Linden: Trinity: yeah, which is why making it optional is ideal, because if your terms of service are close to SL's, then you're going to want to trust our Ban API
  • [11:30] Lalinda Lovell: charles why was he banned?
  • [11:30] Tao Takashi: Trinity: right, that's another question, how do you deal with different rules?
  • [11:30] Teravus Ousley: Sajanai: That's not tricky really
  • [11:30] Charlesk Bing: He left 100 prims with a picture of a penis cut in half.
  • [11:30] Johan Laurasia: ugh
  • [11:30] Charlesk Bing: blech
  • [11:30] Lalinda Lovell: charles and is he perm banned for that?
  • [11:31] McCabe Maxsted: he could at least have been nice and left the whole thing
  • [11:31] FWord Utorid: what if he was going to bring the other half later?
  • [11:31] Tao Takashi: maybe somebody hacked his account and did that and now this actually nice person cannot login anymore?
  • [11:31] Charlesk Bing: If he creates a new user and acts reasonably, he will not be made inactive.
  • [11:31] Media Hax: better they hack my account then me...
  • [11:31] Johan Laurasia: with a name like that I doubt that wsa the case
  • [11:31] Charlesk Bing: But, quite frankly, the avatar name itself is offensive.
  • [11:31] Tao Takashi: but if that gets hacked again then you ban the IP maybe and that nice person cannot login anymore
  • [11:31] FWord Utorid: well, with a name like s**t face, i think he has asterisk for brains
  • [11:31] Teravus Ousley: Tao, we have to assume that the person's account didn't get hacked.
  • [11:32] Lalinda Lovell: charles, i would not ban for that personally, and usually someone who gets banned loves the attention and comes back for more mayhem
  • [11:32] Charlesk Bing: Well, there were letters between the 's' and the 't'
  • [11:32] Teravus Ousley: Tao, it is impossible to deal with if we don't at least put some responsibility on the users for keeping their account secure.
  • [11:32] FWord Utorid: were they threatening letters to the president?
  • [11:32] Trinity Coulter: Tao, that points to some of the shortcomings with the justice system inside SL at the moment... its not a community-centered system, but a government by the lords of the realm, and altho its generally kind, its not always fair or just
  • [11:32] Charlesk Bing: How about one like "OmegaX Nigra"? Would you ban him?
  • [11:33] Lalinda Lovell: i dont know who that person is
  • [11:33] Which Linden: I believe estate owners have control over their estates, Trinity
  • [11:33] Tao Takashi: Teravously: Sure, I am just trying to show some issues. For one domain it's their decision for a world wide grid I would not like to rely on ban lists
  • [11:33] Charlesk Bing: He is the head of the PN
  • [11:33] Johan Laurasia: If I ran a grid, I wouldn't as along as he didnt grief
  • [11:33] And Clawtooth: PN?
  • [11:33] Johan Laurasia: Patriotic Nigras
  • [11:33] Lalinda Lovell: i feel if a private island is affordable, people can totally control that themselves, ban who they choose, then its much less of an issue
  • [11:34] FWord Utorid: ok, so omegax nigra and s**t face need to work together to come up with the whole p3n1s, since omegax is the head of the ... nvm
  • [11:34] Johan Laurasia: a griefing organization
  • [11:34] Charlesk Bing: An unruly group that bills themselves as "ruining secondlife since 2006"
  • [11:34] BlueWall Slade: he was defacing builds on OSGrid
  • [11:34] FWord Utorid: second life ruins itself. it's because which linden plays video games all the time.
  • [11:34] Teravus Ousley: Johan, would you consider walking around the welcome region shouting offensive racial statements as greifing?
  • [11:34] Which Linden: Heh
  • [11:34] BlueWall Slade: hehe
  • [11:34] Johan Laurasia: Yes
  • [11:34] Lalinda Lovell: teravus couldnt people mute that person then?
  • [11:35] Charlesk Bing: New users dont know about that.
  • [11:35] Lalinda Lovell: oh come on
  • [11:35] Lalinda Lovell: they do
  • [11:35] Teravus Ousley: Then, I'd say that Charles waited a long enough time.
  • [11:35] Charlesk Bing: They were essentially disrupting our version of "Orientation Island"
  • [11:35] Trinity Coulter: the G-Team said once that Mute is rarely used, even tho its there, people prefer to argue with each other :)
  • [11:35] Lalinda Lovell: trinity, right
  • [11:36] Johan Laurasia: Yeah, well, is OSGrid considered PG or M?
  • [11:36] Lalinda Lovell: but it should be used
  • [11:36] Johan Laurasia: I would assume the welcome area to be PG
  • [11:36] Charlesk Bing: "M" at this time.
  • [11:36] Which Linden: That's an interesting observation, Trinity
  • [11:36] Which Linden: Makes sense though
  • [11:36] Charlesk Bing: We are trying to avoid anything controversial.
  • [11:36] Lalinda Lovell: if the welcome area has build turned off, and signs for people to mute offensive people, there wouldnt be many problems
  • [11:36] Tao Takashi: so people in the end like griefers in order to have some action in their otherwise dull world? ;-)
  • [11:36] Teravus Ousley: johan, you are trying to slap 'SL type' terms of service on a private network system that doesn't have the same terms of service.
  • [11:37] Lalinda Lovell: charles, you then become controversial for banning people
  • [11:37] Teravus Ousley: .. or.. Lalinda..
  • [11:37] Tao Takashi: LL is rather controversial in many of their regulatory actions ;-)
  • [11:37] Teravus Ousley: .. You can't automatically put the SL terms of service on a service outside of Linden labs
  • [11:37] Lalinda Lovell: the gteam system is wholly flawed here
  • [11:37] Johan Laurasia: well, then Teravus, you're saying there is nothing in OS Grid's TOS concerning offensive language?
  • [11:37] Charlesk Bing: Interesting question then "Is it reasonable for a grid to take actions unilateraly when faced with a real or perceived threat?"
  • [11:38] Trinity Coulter: I think it would help if Linden Lab stopped sponsoring the Welcome Areas, unless they could afford to staff them with security of some sort. Private places usually have better security than Linden places.
  • [11:38] Tao Takashi: but if you cannot port the TOS then you cannot port a banlist
  • [11:38] Teravus Ousley: I'm saying that you can't automatically assume that it falls under the SL TOS
  • [11:38] BlueWall Slade: one thing is the state of the opensiim groups perms at the moment...
  • [11:38] Johan Laurasia: I know, but my point is, there should be some ground rules to OS Grid
  • [11:38] Teravus Ousley: A private network is essentially allowed to have whatever TOS they desire
  • [11:38] Johan Laurasia: not necessarily the same ones as SL
  • [11:38] Tao Takashi: or one might need unified TOS with version numbers and ban with a note which TOS and version applied
  • [11:38] Zha Ewry: Each Grid will likely have it's ownTOS, an chosewhich an lists they want to honnor, if any
  • [11:38] BlueWall Slade: it is an all or nothing system ATM
  • [11:38] Tao Takashi: but I doubt that this will work
  • [11:38] Johan Laurasia: still kinda the wild west in openSim
  • [11:39] McCabe Maxsted: sooner or later, an ageplay grid will pop up, too. Will LL stop avatars from tping there?
  • [11:39] Charlesk Bing: Nah. Each grid determines its own rules.
  • [11:39] Zha Ewry: There is no reason to assume that its monolithic
  • [11:39] Johan Laurasia: question: does OSGrid have a set ToS?
  • [11:39] Lalinda Lovell: mcCabe they cant even stop ageplay in sl, so hardly
  • [11:39] Zha Ewry: And a decent Ban API will merely allowpeople tocreate lists and exchange them
  • [11:39] Charlesk Bing: Yes
  • [11:39] Trinity Coulter: actually, Which, that is a good idea... instead of yes no, say "violated SL TOS 4.2.1 (rev.08/03/2008)"
  • [11:39] Zha Ewry: What people do with them, and how people chose to pick TOS is pretty close to orthongonal frm the technoloy
  • [11:40] Which Linden: Yeah
  • [11:40] Trinity Coulter: and each grid could send a similar message based on their own ToS
  • [11:40] Lalinda Lovell: on opensim do most people have their own private land that they can control who enters?
  • [11:40] CrapLastName Federschneider: question: Since LL is trying very hard to be moralistic and keep children out, can you have a Christianity check as well? I'd like to make sure that I don't talk to any terrorists
  • [11:40] Which Linden: That's interesting, Trinity, though it kind of implies that you'd have an ability for automated understanding of ToS
  • [11:40] BlueWall Slade: maybe cooperating grid management would host a system in which a banned avatar could present their case to be un-banned
  • [11:40] Teravus Ousley: Johan: refer to charles for the Tos
  • [11:40] Tao Takashi: and then you can update your lists daily to check which ban list you now can use or cannot ...
  • [11:40] Which Linden: LL is not trying to be moralistic, LL is trying to not be shut down by the government
  • [11:41] Lalinda Lovell: which is that a real threat atm?
  • [11:41] Which Linden: Dunno
  • [11:41] And Clawtooth: rosedale visited congress a ways back and all seemed to go well
  • [11:41] Tao Takashi: well, teens can see strange photos on flickr...
  • [11:41] Tao Takashi: and strange videos on youtube...
  • [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Speaking of group persm, Xan LInden is conducting a meeting at Zero's Office hours on Tuesday at 1PM on inter-rid permissions design
  • [11:42] CrapLastName Federschneider: but I don't want to consort with terrorists, I'm a law abiding american
  • [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: inter-grid permissions
  • [11:42] Teravus Ousley: I thought I removed that spam gear :P
  • [11:42] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [11:42] Zha Ewry: Well, without making judgement, I will observer that if a federal attornry general decided to confiscate the asset servers, for a case on chlid porn, the grid would be pretty useless
  • [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: I had a spare
  • [11:42] Johan Laurasia: yeah, he said yes... honestly, I don't really need a ToS for the most part. I've visited OSGrid several times, and contributed a free clock, and met people, and didnt cause any problems while there, and I didnt have to read any ToS to know what I should or shouldn't do
  • [11:43] Tao Takashi: Zha: the faster we need to open it up ;-) (not for the CP though)
  • [11:43] Lalinda Lovell: zha why wouldnt the same happen to youtube or anywhere else?
  • [11:43] Orion Raymaker: hello all )
  • [11:43] Trinity Coulter: the permission system needs more improvements, tho
  • [11:43] Tao Takashi: Lalinda: or "the internet" ;-)
  • [11:43] CrapLastName Federschneider: I don't like how lindens are using Age Checks to effectively ban people who they have personal issues with "residents", and obviously people wouldn't want to give their personal info to someone who has a beef with them
  • [11:43] Charlesk Bing: With the exception of last weekend, all on OSGrid have been incredibly polite to each other.
  • [11:43] Lalinda Lovell: i dont see why sl, or anywhere would have more of a problem with illegal uploads
  • [11:43] Tao Takashi: I also don't see that
  • [11:43] CrapLastName Federschneider: what about virtual depictions of beastiality?
  • [11:43] CrapLastName Federschneider: and murder, that's also illegal
  • [11:43] Teravus Ousley: well, generally if a service provider gets a report, they remove it.
  • [11:43] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [11:44] Teravus Ousley: their servers don't generally get confiscated.
  • [11:44] Lalinda Lovell: if the metaverse is going to be singled out by the media as its a more visual version of the internet, then the media need to get over it
  • [11:44] CrapLastName Federschneider: the media has a hardon for itself
  • [11:44] Lalinda Lovell: because its no different from any website
  • [11:44] Which Linden: One thing to remember is that SL is considered "more immersive" than comparable web services, and such the perceived potential for harm is higher
  • [11:45] Zha Ewry: a) servers do end up confiscated, tho, very rarely, and b) if you're the most visible, it's an issue, just as myspace, takes heat for web pages in general
  • [11:45] Lalinda Lovell: which, by whom is it considered that?
  • [11:45] Tao Takashi: nah, it's a comic chat ;-)
  • [11:45] CrapLastName Federschneider: well, about age checks, it's a lot easier to get into the main grid
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Lalinda, well, that's why we created it, to be more immersive :-)
  • [11:45] CrapLastName Federschneider: I don't imagine a lot of parents will just hand out their credit card to their children
  • [11:45] Lalinda Lovell: isnt WOW a lot bigger
  • [11:45] CrapLastName Federschneider: no
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Can't upload images to WoW
  • [11:45] CrapLastName Federschneider: bigger in userbase, not size
  • [11:45] Zha Ewry: Oddly, you can' take off your pants in Wow.
  • [11:45] Tao Takashi: and WoW didn't had a hype
  • [11:45] Lalinda Lovell: i was referring to be immersive
  • [11:45] Johan Laurasia: heh
  • [11:46] Teravus Ousley: well, I note.. that wouldn't immersivity be greater in a system where there's a story for the player to get wrapped up in?
  • [11:46] CrapLastName Federschneider: I'd say so
  • [11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: and no single WoW world is more than a few thousand people at any given momemnt
  • [11:46] Lalinda Lovell: and you can be harmed in wow, or killed
  • [11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. instead of the player having to decide whether they're playin from 2nd person.. 3rd person.. or 1st person?
  • [11:46] Tao Takashi: WoW is boring anyway ;-)
  • [11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. :D
  • [11:46] Tristan Dawner:  :>
  • [11:47] CrapLastName Federschneider: I'd like to see LL implement checks to see if a user has ever commited any cyber crimes or sex-related offenses to keep abusive users off the grid
  • [11:47] Which Linden: Anyway, we digress. The point of distributed domain is so we don't have to worry about a single point of failure any more, social or technical
  • [11:47] Tristan Dawner: are we starting a revolution or something?
  • [11:47] FWord Utorid: i agree, wow is boring, because you can't take your pants off. everyone here should take off their pants to prove they are cooler than wow players.
  • [11:47] CrapLastName Federschneider: more people need to be banned
  • [11:47] CrapLastName Federschneider: that'll fix everything
  • [11:47] Trinity Coulter: I want to be a Level 40 Which
  • [11:47] Charlesk Bing: dont we all.
  • [11:47] BlueWall Slade: would the ban api be extended to give further information about the nature of trhe ban?
  • [11:48] Which Linden: I dunno, BlueWall, Trinity brough that up
  • [11:48] FWord Utorid: everyone will be able to have their little police blotters
  • [11:48] Which Linden: Listing things by section of the ToS seems straightforward
  • [11:48] Tao Takashi: honestly I would first build a working OGP grid and then think further about the ban API ;-)
  • [11:48] Tao Takashi: maybe then you might also have more real world use cases to consider
  • [11:49] FWord Utorid: i want all of it working now, and free, and include a complimentary mint.
  • [11:49] Which Linden: Yeah, defer the decision making until the last moment
  • [11:49] And Clawtooth: yes. TAO is right
  • [11:49] Johan Laurasia: also, when crossing grids, would you have to stop, agree to a ToS then continue?
  • [11:49] CrapLastName Federschneider: and I want convicted rapists off the grid
  • [11:49] Which Linden: Well, this was just a strawman discussion anyhow
  • [11:49] CrapLastName Federschneider: I don't want my pixels raped!
  • [11:49] BlueWall Slade: yes, i think a lot of things will be a work in progress as experience is gained
  • [11:49] CrapLastName Federschneider: unless I do
  • [11:49] Lalinda Lovell: but theres not just the griefers, theres the almost as ban wannabee police who cause trouble for excitement in order to catch people, ban them, make a big fuss
  • [11:49] Tao Takashi: I mainly would like Tao imposters banned
  • [11:49] Trinity Coulter: if it were listed by the "authority" and section of that authority's ToS, other's could more easily determin if they wanted to ackowledge the ban
  • [11:49] FWord Utorid: which, thinking ahead is always great.
  • [11:49] Tao Takashi: and authority of domain issueing the list
  • [11:49] FWord Utorid: if sai had thought ahead he would still have his virtue.
  • [11:49] Which Linden: Another good question, Johan -- probably something that you'd want implemented by the client
  • [11:50] Teravus Ousley: wonders if lalinda was banned on another account :P
  • [11:50] Lalinda Lovell: teravus never
  • [11:50] BlueWall Slade: lol
  • [11:50] CrapLastName Federschneider: yes
  • [11:50] CrapLastName Federschneider: she is a horrible griefer
  • [11:50] Johan Laurasia: I honestly didnt even consider walking from grid A to grid B, I always assumed it would be via a teleport.
  • [11:50] Lalinda Lovell: but wtg shit stirring
  • [11:50] Which Linden: A good comparison woud be the boxes that pop up when you cross to a region running a different version of the sim software
  • [11:50] CrapLastName Federschneider: she touched my pixels in the wrong way and I want her banned!
  • [11:50] Tao Takashi: I guess it doesn't matter so much if it's via TP or walk
  • [11:50] FWord Utorid: i think grid to grid should be like a tardis or a doorway ala croquet
  • [11:51] Tao Takashi: technically it's a TP anyway
  • [11:51] Malburns Writer: if, as i gather, linden bring european and australian servers online, the rulebook could even change for different areas of SL grid anyway
  • [11:51] FWord Utorid: or special stargates and such, like the beginning of Quake I
  • [11:51] Orion Raymaker: So intergid is going to happen with LL grid?
  • [11:51] CrapLastName Federschneider: what about a children's grid? My 5 year old nephew wants to play
  • [11:51] FWord Utorid: yes, i wonder if you could gamble on other grids
  • [11:51] Teravus Ousley: well, presumably, region owners could decide if they want to ban them or not.. .. and the grid owners would do the same for their region of influence.
  • [11:51] Tao Takashi: FWord: ask your lawyer ;-)
  • [11:51] Which Linden: Hell, I believe that LL will host multiple grids ourselves.
  • [11:52] CrapLastName Federschneider: I want to gamble while ageplaying and griefing
  • [11:52] Johan Laurasia: LL already does
  • [11:52] Johan Laurasia: lol
  • [11:52] Lalinda Lovell: IMO there should only be grid bans for actual crimes, and then a real ban list that was important, such as people planning rl crimes, uploading illegal images, instead of 1000s of pointless bans there would be a small amount of very important information to deal with
  • [11:52] BlueWall Slade: Which: you already do, lol
  • [11:52] And Clawtooth: yes. the IBM grid
  • [11:52] Which Linden: Oh...well, I thought IBM was hosting that
  • [11:52] Johan Laurasia: there's gotta be 15 to 20 LL grids
  • [11:52] Tao Takashi: bans created by social engineering...
  • [11:52] Which Linden: Oh yeah the dev grids
  • [11:52] Zha Ewry: IBM isn't hosting a gried, but a sectoin of regoins
  • [11:52] Zha Ewry: *grid
  • [11:52] Which Linden: But those aren't connected
  • [11:52] Johan Laurasia: yeah
  • [11:52] FWord Utorid: that reminds me, zha, did ibm ever release it's opensim patches, or are they hording it like a 6 year old hordes that last piece of halloween candy?
  • [11:52] BlueWall Slade: teen grid
  • [11:53] Zha Ewry: And, it is going to run on the main grid TOS for now
  • [11:53] Which Linden: What I meant to say is that we would be running multiple *domains*; stupid terminology
  • [11:53] Teravus Ousley: it's still not been posted on Mantis.
  • [11:53] Orion Raymaker: Im talking about privatly hosted grids linked to LL's
  • [11:53] Trinity Coulter: why not "planets", Which
  • [11:53] Charlesk Bing: Zha. Do not be surprised if "Hamilton Linden" mentions betagrid<->OSGrid interop testing as we just finished a meeting and this was discussed with him.
  • [11:53] FWord Utorid: what a bunch of meanies at ibm, they show us a shiny toy and won't let us play with it.
  • [11:53] FWord Utorid: share your toys
  • [11:53] Charlesk Bing: He also just sent me an e-mail expressing optimism about that subject
  • [11:53] FWord Utorid: ibm needs a mom.
  • [11:54] Orion Raymaker: lol
  • [11:54] Johan Laurasia: there version of griefer control probably
  • [11:54] FWord Utorid: to scold it when it is bad and show it the difference between right and wrong.
  • [11:54] FWord Utorid: to say supportive, nurturing things to ibm.
  • [11:55] Which Linden: Orion: if they're connected to LL, they become a "domain" rather than a "grid", I think, is the way the terminology goes
  • [11:55] FWord Utorid: there there, ibm, it's just a skinned knee, we'll kiss it and make it alll better.
  • [11:55] Orion Raymaker: Ah got you :)
  • [11:55] Which Linden: not connected to LL exclusively, just connected as part of a larger whole
  • [11:55] Zha Ewry: Right now, as Adam said, the patch is pretty ugly, and is tracking the code Linden isdeplying, day to day
  • [11:55] And Clawtooth: so IBM is currently a domain connected to LL?
  • [11:55] Charlesk Bing: Yes, I think we are getting closer to implementing "Agent Domain" servers.
  • [11:55] Tao Takashi: maybe LL would invent more naming confusing and add something so "Second Life" and "Second Life Grid" then :)
  • [11:55] FWord Utorid: ok. i take back what i said about you being mean.
  • [11:56] Orion Raymaker: lol
  • [11:56] Zha Ewry: But.. I'll be working with our OpenSim team toget it out to the community in a form that everyone can look at, so we can
  • [11:56] Zha Ewry: all see some of the interesting issues
  • [11:56] Zha Ewry: looks back at emacs, and mutters about UUID formats
  • [11:56] Charlesk Bing: Zha. On OSGrid we will be happy to test as SDague and Adam deem appropriate.
  • [11:57] Which Linden: Isn't that a bit like muttering about matter/antimatter mix ratios?
  • [11:57] Tao Takashi: ok, I gotta go.. nice discussion again :)
  • [11:57] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [11:57] Zha Ewry: Yeah
  • [11:57] Tao Takashi: cya later
  • [11:57] Johan Laurasia: lol
  • [11:57] Which Linden: Bye tao
  • [11:57] Teravus Ousley: take care.
  • [11:57] Malburns Writer: cya tao
  • [11:57] Orion Raymaker: bye
  • [11:57] FWord Utorid: bye tao. sorry about your head.
  • [11:57] Johan Laurasia: chao tao
  • [11:57] Charlesk Bing: I need to go too. See you folks later.
  • [11:57] Tao Takashi: oh, and sign up for EuroPython (europython.org), then we can sprint on pyogp there :)
  • [11:57] Teravus Ousley: <3 minutes
  • [11:58] Which Linden: Well, looks like it's time to wrap up
  • [11:58] Which Linden: Closing thoughts?
  • [11:58] Johan Laurasia: someone water Which on the way out...
  • [11:58] FWord Utorid: please don't ban me, i'll be nicer when ibm is.
  • [11:58] Lalinda Lovell: controlled chaos?
  • [11:58] Orion Raymaker: Well I dont know if you discussed intergrid griefing
  • [11:58] FWord Utorid: they make me do things, they have mind control, i know it.
  • [11:58] Teravus Ousley: well, an expanded banlist with Tos remarks
  • [11:58] Orion Raymaker: but thats my fault for being late lol
  • [11:58] Teravus Ousley: .. potentially a shared banlist.
  • [11:58] Orion Raymaker: ah ok
  • [11:58] BlueWall Slade: yeah, Which - i'd be careful. there were doggy avatars at AW Groupies last meeting
  • [11:59] Orion Raymaker: sounds simple and effective
  • [11:59] Saijanai Kuhn: reminds everyone to join AW GRoupies and the pyogp irc chat if you're into these things on a techno-geek level
  • [11:59] Teravus Ousley: .. and, supposedly it would be up to the region and grid domain to honor and use the shared banlist
  • [11:59] Zha Ewry: Well, how would you enforce it otherwise Teravus?
  • [11:59] Mikelo Serevi: Opt-in banlists, like spam blacklists?
  • [11:59] Lalinda Lovell: teravus you were reading a different meeting than me, i never saw people agree to those things as such
  • [11:59] Which Linden: Yeah, I think it's important to remember that banlists are a social tool, not a technical one
  • [11:59] FWord Utorid: may enforcement be with you
  • [11:59] Zha Ewry: I don't see Linden's showing up with guns and making Ssadmins do it ;)
  • [11:59] Lalinda Lovell: yet
  • [12:00] Which Linden: Well, one could configure one's servers to ban an entire grid
  • [12:00] Orion Raymaker: btw Saijanai, great JIRA, causing some really useful discussion: [1]
  • [12:01] Saijanai Kuhn: I switched it to the 1272, and Xan Linden will be talking about it at 1PM on Tuesday
  • [12:01] Saijanai Kuhn: 1277*
  • [12:01] Orion Raymaker: ah ok
  • [12:01] Orion Raymaker: my fault, wrong bookmark - sorry
  • [12:01] Orion Raymaker: [2]
  • [12:02] Saijanai Kuhn: 1272 has the most discussion. Interesting insight into certain thought processes...
  • [12:02] Which Linden: I'm gonna jet, thank you all for coming and participating in the discussion
  • [12:02] Johan Laurasia: So, Which, do you have a bear to add to my collection?
  • [12:02] BlueWall Slade: thanks :)
  • [12:02] Which Linden: Oh yeah one sec
  • [12:02] Orion Raymaker: Well I will try to come along a bit earlier next time good to meet you briefly Which
  • [12:03] Which Linden: Likewise
  • [12:03] Johan Laurasia: thanks, Which
  • [12:03] FWord Utorid: yes, which, thanks for keeping the world safe. we know dahlia has an agenda, we must always be watchful.
  • [12:03] Zha Ewry: /back to deep diving code, folks, thanks which.
  • [12:03] Which Linden: Have fun!
  • [12:03] Malburns Writer: thanks

lity]]