User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 26

[8:27] Dr Scofield: hi adam, hi hamilton, hi baba
[8:27] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Tree
[8:27] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Dr
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: Hi everyone!
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: high everyone?
[8:27] Baba Yamamoto: haah no trek references!
[8:28] Adam Zaius: Hey, dont suppose Zha's going to be showing up?
[8:28] Adam Zaius: Given I heard the topic this week was the interop stuff.
[8:28] Dr Scofield: i'd expect her to
[8:28] Tree Kyomoon: Zha is always here!
[8:28] Adam Zaius: Hehe, must be running late.
[8:29] Hamilton Linden: Yeah, I talk to her/him every week
[8:30] Hamilton Linden: Do you guys usually start on time or wait a few minutes?
[8:30] Adam Zaius: Usually roughly on time from my experience.
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: havent we already started?
[8:30] Adam Zaius: Sometimes early.
[8:31] Dr Scofield: we start on time and zero hands out free islands to everyone who's on time :-)
[8:31] Hamilton Linden: ok, one sec...
[8:31] Adam Zaius: Haha
[8:31] Hamilton Linden: let's Adam... a few hundred...
[8:31] Adam Zaius: At least. :)
[8:31] Adam Zaius: Hehe.
[8:31] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[8:31] Tree Kyomoon: freedom costs a buck o five
[8:31] Adam Zaius: Plus my few thousand opensims if they count. ;)
[8:31] Baba Yamamoto: is that how adam got so many?
[8:31] Hamilton Linden: shhhh
[8:32] Hamilton Linden: well I'm the guest speaker today
[8:32] Hamilton Linden: since Zero's on vaca
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: adam has compromising photos of mitch kapor
[8:32] Baba Yamamoto: what are you guest speaking about?
[8:32] Charlesk Bing: Morning
[8:32] Hamilton Linden: Open Grid Protocol
[8:32] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Charlesk
[8:32] Baba Yamamoto: lame
[8:33] Hamilton Linden: I wanted to start by giving some context at Linden Lab since I'm not as familiar a
face
[8:33] Baba Yamamoto: ;)
[8:33] Hamilton Linden: I'm leading our efforts to implement the Open Grid Protocol at Linden Lab
[8:33] Hamilton Linden: Tess and Periapse are key members of this implementation team.
[8:33] Hamilton Linden: Zero is leading our Architecture Working Group standardization efforts and the
architecture for it.
[8:33] Baba Yamamoto: oh.. fearless leader
[8:33] Tree Kyomoon: Hamilton that is distinct from Open sim right?
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: (FTR)
[8:34] Adam Zaius: Right, but it's related sort of.
[8:34] Hamilton Linden: Yes
[8:34] Hamilton Linden: This quarter we began taking the very first steps of Open Grid Protocol
interoperability development and testing.
[8:34] Adam Zaius: Our protocol is Open Grid Services (OGS) vs Open Grid Protocol (OGP)
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: morning all
[8:34] Adam Zaius: I can sense that's going to be confusing in future. heh.
[8:34] Hamilton Linden: We're currently working on implementing and testing Login and Teleport.
[8:34] Dr Scofield: hi saijanai
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: hey saij
[8:34] Hamilton Linden: Yeah :-)
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: topic this mornign?
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: It's going well, we're still working hard and its not finished yet.
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: Open Grid Protocol
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: I just started playing half life, and man I thought teleporting in SL was rough...
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: lol
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: We're working jointly with IBM to make sure it interoperates with OpenSim
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Guess ENus is still asleep
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: so am I
[8:35] Hamilton Linden: IBM is working with us to add Open Grid Protocol support to OpenSim and jointly
enhance the Second Life open source viewer with us.
[8:35] Adam Zaius: thanks our benevolent corporate overlord.
[8:36] Hamilton Linden: So that was the context
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: Does IBM have an SL page or online public info thing about that relationship?
[8:36] Goldie Katsu: a good benevolent corporate overloard.
[8:36] Hamilton Linden: there has been mention of it in past press releases, I think they're talking about it
at the AWG Groupies meeting
[8:37] Goldie Katsu: sighs thinking of her lawyerbound corporate overlord.
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Ah, well Zha works for IBM so doesn Neas Bede
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Id sure love to see a public facing portal on IBM's website for SL.
[8:37] Tao Takashi: Hello
[8:37] Dr Scofield: does too
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Would help a lot in corporate value justification
[8:37] Adam Zaius: I think that might be a bit too much to ask personally.
[8:37] Hamilton Linden: so now the meat
[8:37] Hamilton Linden: I'm gauging interest in OpenSim'ers desire to conduct interoperability testing using
SGOGP with Second Life
[8:38] Hamilton Linden: What are your thoughts?
[8:38] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: I'm up for it - what's required to do the tests, are the caps public and live?
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: SGOGP or SLOGP?
[8:38] Tao Takashi: OGP! :)
[8:38] Hamilton Linden: lets just keep it simple OGP
[8:38] Baba Yamamoto: what is the goal of opensim interop?
[8:38] Hamilton Linden: so Adam, if we opened up our beta grid so you could begin testing it then you'd do so?
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Adam the most uptodate stuff is in the Python OGP lib, as far as I know (pyogp)
[8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
[8:39] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Yes, I would personally. I suspect others would too.
[8:39] Hamilton Linden: Obviously we're still getting our stuff to work so we can enable that
[8:39] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton. I can speak as both an OpenSim core developer and director of OSGrid that we
would like to support and help that effort.
[8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: and if its not, it should be, since that is what the lib is for
[8:39] Adam Zaius: Being able to utilise the SL login server would be a big benefit to me personally - since
it means I dont need to spend so much time setting up duplicate userservers, etc.
[8:40] Tao Takashi: I personally would be interested in writing some agent domain which is capable of
connecting to an opensim
[8:40] Locklainn Linden: actually, the newest pyogp site is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pyogp
[8:40] Goldie Katsu: Might start here: [2] and links at the
bottom (Virtual worlds come to life, and Greater IBM connection)
[8:40] Infinity Linden: Hey Baba... to answer your question.. the high-level goals are to prove the protocol
is sufficently documented to support interpoerability and to see if we all have our systems (including
firewalls, etc.) setup properly
[8:40] Charlesk Bing: OSGrid is ready to test an agent domain as soon as it is committed to the OpenSim SVN.
[8:40] Adam Zaius: Question: The interop stuff - Zha didnt elaborate too much on this, he used both Login and
Teleport in his post.
[8:40] Adam Zaius: Was the teleport he did a login-direct-to-opensim, or a offer-teleport/teleport.
[8:41] Adam Zaius: (or are both possible?)
[8:41] Tao Takashi: I think login
[8:41] Dr Scofield: patch from Zha is forth coming...needs a bit of, err, cleanup
[8:41] Dr Scofield: login
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: as far as interop is concerned, we are just talking interop between opensim and SL, not SL and any
webservice based app?
[8:41] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton, I also have to say that I generally support Adam and SDague as two of our key
architects for OpenSim.
[8:41] Hamilton Linden: very cool guys
[8:42] Tao Takashi: so if you see opensim as a region domain I guess right now the question is how to handle
place_avatar if I see this right
[8:42] Hamilton Linden: What can we do to help with your testing efforts?
[8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: tp is one or two steps beyond login. The design is to make them almost identical except
login has no "source" simulator
[8:42] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Teleports would be incredibly handy if that's at all possible.
[8:42] Adam Zaius: Although I admit there are some security concerns which would prohibit it from the main
grid -- like the not-so-secret shared-secret keys.
[8:42] Baba Yamamoto: why would a teleport need a source? derez in one sim and rez in another
[8:42] Hamilton Linden: the good news is we're working on teleport at the moment (with Zha), its a bit tricky
but we're making progress
[8:42] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton: Are you familiar with OSGrid? [(http://osgrid.org)] It is one of our main
testing and development grids for OpenSim and might be a good candidate for interop testing.
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba. That's the diff between login and TP
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: no derez step
[8:43] Baba Yamamoto: i think the language is bad then sai
[8:44] Charlesk Bing: In general, this grid tests the SVN trunk from OpenSim every day, is non-profit, and
stays very close to the OpenSim developers desires, Hamilton.
[8:44] Baba Yamamoto: that's not a login.. it's just a rez step after login
[8:44] Hamilton Linden: Charlesk, can't remember if I've logged into that OSGrid. I was just on Openlife last
week
[8:44] Charlesk Bing: Seeing as how it is run by one of the OpenSim core developers.
[8:44] Tao Takashi: I wonder which protocol the LL agent domain implements at the moment, is it
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman ?
[8:44] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Charles diverged onto a topic for a moment which may be worth looking into ---
the Agent Domain implementation LL has, is it possible to cleanup and release that? (ie we could make the OGS
gridservers OGP compatible)
[8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba Login establishes credentials with the AD. ONce that happens, you can rez in any
sim. If you don't have a sim you're already rezzed in, you don't need to derez, so that is just your initial
rez
[8:45] Charlesk Bing: Thanks, Adam. My interest here is setting up tests and gathering data at this point to
help the developers on both sides.
[8:45] Hamilton Linden: Adam, in order to open up our beta grid for interop testing...
[8:46] BlueWall Slade: As a region operator on OSGrid, iI would be very interested in participating in interop
testing as well
[8:46] Baba Yamamoto: sai then teleports dont have sources..
[8:46] Hamilton Linden: we'd need to put our first cut of the agent domain there for you to test against
[8:46] Hamilton Linden: which is why I was asking if there was interest
[8:46] Charlesk Bing: As soon as the agent domain is in the SVN, we will test it.
[8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: TP's have a derez step as well as a rez step. INitial login is a TP without derez
[8:46] Hamilton Linden: by first cut I mean login & tp
[8:46] Hamilton Linden: awesome Charlesk
[8:47] Baba Yamamoto: sai, then a teleport isnt really a base protocol item.. it's two items tied together by
a macro ;)
[8:47] Charlesk Bing: I'll back off a bit. If ADam says test before SVN, I will do that also.
[8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: initial sim-rez is a TP without derez, sorry. Login has nothing except password
screening
[8:47] Hamilton Linden: what do you mean by "in the SVN"?
[8:47] Charlesk Bing: Also, feel free to make any conditions that LL needs to feel comfortable.
[8:48] Charlesk Bing: I backed off that one. Normally, I try to test on OSGrid what is in OpenSim SVN. But, in
this particular case, if Adam were to say "test this .exe program". then I will say 'Ok".
[8:48] Adam Zaius: Heh, well anything we want to test will end up in SVN anyway.
[8:48] Adam Zaius: OSGrid's value is more in the volume of testing it can do.
[8:48] Charlesk Bing: Er, as long as it doenst bring down the rest of the OpenSim server processes, that is.
[8:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Don't know how complicated ZHa's code was. But it didn't soud ilke rocket science,
except perhaps figuring out the interface initially (as usual)
[8:49] Charlesk Bing: We could perhaps arrange the interop to only go to a particular isolated island on the
LL betagrid to limit the tests until all feel more comfortable.
[8:50] Adam Zaius: From what I've been told Zha's code is a little bit ... unsanitary and needs cleaning.
[8:50] Charlesk Bing: We can also put in place any restrictions LL feels comfortable with.
[8:50] Adam Zaius: Fine for a first implementation as a get-it-working, but I think the proper implementation
will likely just use that as a guide.
[8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha was suggesting that we need a special test asset server that has ONLY assets created
on the starting SL beta sim
[8:50] Hamilton Linden: Yes, the first step would be "get it working" step
[8:50] Tree Kyomoon: /reminds folks all this is on the record...
[8:50] Harleen Gretzky: [3]
[8:50] Hamilton Linden: We could even do joint debugging sessions
[8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: that way, we won't risk transferring assets from SL to OpenSim
[8:51] Charlesk Bing: I'll shut up now unless asked. But, in general, Adam, DrScofield, Neas and the rest of
the OpenSim core developers speak for me also.
[8:51] Tao Takashi: my refactored code is here:
http://pysecondlife.googlecode.com/svn/pyogp/pyogp.lib.base/trunk/pyogp/lib/base/
[8:51] Hamilton Linden: No inventory or asset transfer is supported at this time (including clothing, body
shapes, etc...)
[8:51] Tao Takashi: needs to be merged with LL's code, we will do a plan soon :)
[8:51] Baba Yamamoto: heh.. how would asset transfer happen without explicit support?
[8:51] Hamilton Linden: We will not add that without community co-design and in a way that protects existing
vendors
[8:51] Dr Scofield: channelling via sub-ether
[8:51] Infinity Linden: I think Saijanai was talking about code written by lindens
[8:52] Adam Zaius: What about transferring one-way for the moment? OpenSim->SL but not vice-versa.
[8:52] Baba Yamamoto: hamilton, you're too worried about existing vendors
[8:52] Baba Yamamoto: drop i nthe bucket
[8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: existing vendors are the bread and butter that keeps LL running via landsales
[8:52] Hamilton Linden: I'd have to to respectfully disagree Baba
[8:53] Hamilton Linden: but anyway, we haven't even designed that piece yet and will be doing so at these
office hours
[8:53] Charlesk Bing: I would like to say that OSGrid wishes to respect the desires of LL with respect to any
transferring of objects.
[8:53] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: btw, is place_avatar implemented like in
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman ?
[8:54] Tree Kyomoon: thinks SL is still in R&D phase, real profitabiliy is a long ways away but when it hits it
will be huge, so for now concentrating on whats best for the platform is a wise move
[8:54] Tao Takashi: so could I do the same manually then?
[8:54] Hamilton Linden: lets keep in mind what we've been talking about today is only the first small step
towards interoperability
[8:54] Locklainn Linden: lemme look it over, 1 sec
[8:54] Tao Takashi: then this might be what OpenSim needs to implement I assume (and what Zha probably
implemented)
[8:54] Hamilton Linden: so while there's a lot of messages login and teleport are still a very small subset,
which leads me to my next question
[8:55] Hamilton Linden: What would you folks like Linden Lab to work on next in terms of interoperability
implementation of OGP
[8:55] Dr Scofield: chat? im?
[8:56] Tao Takashi: I personally would like inventory web services :)
[8:56] Adam Zaius: IM, Presence would be good ones.
[8:56] Locklainn Linden: Tao, yes, place_avatar is implemented as such
[8:56] Adam Zaius: Oh, I had a big question here - this has been discussed before, but I dont think it's been
finalised yet.
[8:56] Adam Zaius: What are we standardising on in terms of avatar identifiers?
[8:56] Locklainn Linden: as far as I know
[8:56] Adam Zaius: user@host?
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: remove chat from the viewer and open it up, and allow us to access a mini viewer that we can embed
in facebook
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: and youtube
[8:57] Hamilton Linden: Excellent question Adam, I'll have to defer to Zero on that till he gets back. But I'm
pretty sure we haven't finalized it
[8:57] Adam Zaius: Hang on
[8:57] Adam Zaius: I need to relog
[8:57] Adam Zaius: memory leak
[8:57] Adam Zaius: brb
[8:57] Tree Kyomoon: its one thing to interface with software no one uses, but it gets more exciting when SL users and
developers can access the 70,000,000 people using facebook
[8:57] Dr Scofield: chat, IM, presence would nicely complement login/teleport
[8:58] Infinity Linden: hmm.. facebook's security model concerns me though
[8:58] Tree Kyomoon: Im not saying a full client in facebook, but we should be able to put at least a viewer in an
embed on webpages
[8:58] Locklainn Linden: what do you mean by "presence"?
[8:58] Adam Zaius: Back
[8:59] Adam Zaius: Presence =Online Stauts
[8:59] Dr Scofield: avatar online status
[8:59] Adam Zaius: Status*
[8:59] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[8:59] Hamilton Linden: Well if OGP supported IM you could theoretically integrate it with anything on the web
[8:59] Locklainn Linden: isn't that just logging in?
[8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: phogp should enable thin web-based clients
[8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: pyogp
[8:59] Hamilton Linden: + presence Locklainn
[8:59] Dr Scofield: you also have away, busy
[8:59] Tree Kyomoon: right so something like GAIM could access SL chat, which would be awesome
[8:59] Adam Zaius: Away, Busy, etc seem kind of restrictive.
[9:00] Adam Zaius: I'd have some standard identifiers, but leave it a text field personally.
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: steps right now are login => rez avatar
[9:00] Dr Scofield: i agree those should be extended
[9:00] Hamilton Linden: Sorry for being ignorant but what's GAIM?
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: between login and rez avatar could be "obain inventory" or "send IM"
[9:00] Tree Kyomoon: its now called Pidgeon
[9:00] Tree Kyomoon: sorry
[9:00] Baba Yamamoto: didnt they fork it again?
[9:00] Dr Scofield: multi-protocol IM/chat app
[9:00] Tree Kyomoon: open chat client
[9:00] BlueWall Slade: XMPP
[9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: so an IM client could use SL login annd send/receive SL IM messages
[9:01] Tao Takashi: the reason I would like inventory is so that I can build some web based inventory client
:)
[9:01] Tree Kyomoon: Im already working on one of those
[9:01] Hamilton Linden: wouldn't the first step to an open chat client be adding support for IM in our OGP
implementation
[9:01] Tree Kyomoon: everything is entirely extracted from SL
[9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: That's been the plan since the start of SLOGP, Tree
[9:01] Tree Kyomoon: but web communication from SL to servers is limited and crappy
[9:01] Ehdward Spengler: arent those "text only" sl clients basically glorified chat application?
[9:01] Infinity Linden: XMPP has scalability issues though
[9:01] Rex Cronon: hello, am i late or what:)
[9:02] Dr Scofield: infinity, hmm, seems like google disagrees
[9:02] Tree Kyomoon: we need real XML and session connectivity between SL and the httpwebs
[9:02] Hamilton Linden: By the way, Infinity is part of our team to design and implement OGP in case it hasn't
been stated explicitly before
[9:02] Tao Takashi: btw, the question of how to identify an agent is very much related to what dataportability
and other groups are thinking about so maybe there is something we can also discuss together
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: currenty, group IM also handles inventory trading between avatars
[9:02] Infinity Linden: google plays a few tricks with its implementation and is rather charded in terms of
its use
[9:03] Dr Scofield: what do they do?
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: so get group IM working means inventory passing is also working (or 95% of the way
there)
[9:03] Infinity Linden: still... maybe using XMPP for the client and having some form of gateway...
[9:03] Infinity Linden: hmm..
[9:03] Tao Takashi: but wouldn't this maybe something where we could engage with the XMPP community and try to
solve these problems instead of inventing something new?
[9:03] Infinity Linden: using an "open" chat protocol is probably better than re-inventing the wheel
[9:03] Dr Scofield: that's what we are planning for OpenSim (XmppBridgeModule)
[9:03] Infinity Linden: great minds think alike
[9:04] Adam Zaius: If you do XMPP for IM / Chat -- implement it in the client, and just use a login-share for
the server backend.
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the first step should be to get gorup IM working in the pyogp. Then everyone can
hash out how to improvement
[9:04] Tao Takashi: XMPP is also one of the things which these days get mentioned over and over again, e.g.
related to dataportability again and life streams/twitter like applications
[9:04] Adam Zaius: That way it's explicit that you dont have to implement a XMPP server to implement the
protocol.
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero insists that XMPP has issues
[9:04] BlueWall Slade: SL group messages to twitter might be good :0
[9:04] Tao Takashi: as said, maybe they can be removed by working with the XMPP people
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha said that after independent checking, she decided that Zero is correct: it doesn't
handle the SL requirements properly
[9:04] Dr Scofield: has zero had a talk with google folks?
[9:04] Tao Takashi: they might be interested in identifying issues and solvign them
[9:05] Hypatia Callisto: twitter is "stressing out" a fair bit too much :P
[9:05] Infinity Linden: yeah.. Zero and I have gone through some of them
[9:05] Tao Takashi: Hypatia: sure, but even with IMs disabled ;-)
[9:05] Infinity Linden: there is a possibility that XMPP could be made to work, but not without a few changes
[9:05] Hypatia Callisto: its nearly unusable today Tao
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: SL, to be truly open, needs to open up to regular web communication protocols so us flash / html
developers can have access to our islands and servers
[9:05] Tao Takashi: I still need to read the xmpp spec(s)
[9:05] Tao Takashi: if it only wouldn't be too much :)
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: that would totally change the web
[9:06] Tao Takashi: and I would like to learn more about the issues
[9:06] Tao Takashi: maybe these are issues for other applications as well
[9:06] Rex Cronon: u wouldn't be the only one that has access to them tao, hackers would too
[9:06] Baba Yamamoto: hackers..
[9:06] Baba Yamamoto: Muahahaha
[9:06] Tao Takashi: well, I am not sure we talk about security issues here
[9:06] Infinity Linden: remember.. in SL, we have the idea of location as well as presence. so you can have
agent a and agent who can hear each other along with agent b and agent c who can hear each other, but agent a
and agent c can't hear each other
[9:06] Tree Kyomoon: fear of hackers should not affect wilingness to evolve
[9:06] Ehdward Spengler: hackers have access to the code for firefox 3, how many hack attacks do you know of
centered around firefox?
[9:06] Rex Cronon: i don't think that ll would like that
[9:07] BlueWall Slade: thinks inter-grid inventory transfers of *owner created* content would help testing as
well
[9:07] Charlesk Bing: I would suggest starting slow and just working out the logic to move as nekkid ruths
from one grid to another and then we can have all the rest of these interesting discussions.
[9:07] Tao Takashi: Infinity: sure, but isn't this a different chat than IM?
[9:07] Dr Scofield: we really only need IM for inter -grid
[9:07] Baba Yamamoto: moving nekkid ruths between grids is about 3-4 days of work ?
[9:08] Baba Yamamoto: if the specs are all there
[9:08] Dr Scofield: for that XMPP is fine
[9:08] Rex Cronon: a day might come when people might catch a virus from visiting a sim:)
[9:08] Hamilton Linden: I believe the next of Zero's office hours will focus on inventory & permissions and is
being led by Xan Linden
[9:08] Tao Takashi: I was more thinking about pure IM implemented via XMPP
[9:08] Ehdward Spengler: baba, i believe it has already been done
[9:08] Hamilton Linden: That's Tuesday 1 pm PST :-)
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: I agree Charlesk that is of clear academic value, I guess I am talking more practical value,
increasing the visibility and usefulness of SL today, not 10 or 20 years from now
[9:08] Tao Takashi: Hamilton: cool
[9:08] Dr Scofield: tao, ys
[9:08] Baba Yamamoto: ehdward, i am aware.. but not open ;)
[9:08] Dr Scofield: i wasn't thinking straight when i mentioned chat, adam had it spot on
[9:09] Dr Scofield: IM & presence
[9:09] Adam Zaius: :)
[9:09] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: good to hear btw, I might then try these out someday :)
[9:09] Hamilton Linden: So to summarize Presence, IM and Inventory (possibly in that order)
[9:09] Hamilton Linden: is what you'd guys would like (with some differences obviously)
[9:10] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: but it would also be good to have a clue why it stalls :)
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: and Viewer at least 1 way or 1 way with some interactivity
[9:10] Tao Takashi: maybe implementing it myself might help to find it out
[9:10] Locklainn Linden: Tao, that reverse HTTP stuff
[9:10] Dr Scofield: yes
[9:10] Hamilton Linden: as usuall we'll be discussing the design of each before we implement it
[9:10] Locklainn Linden: gotta talk to tess and leyla
[9:10] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: but shouldn't at least something be coming over the wire?
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: hamilton, you may need to take Zero's office hours to a arena for the inventory
discussion next week
[9:10] Locklainn Linden: not sure
[9:10] Tao Takashi: or maybe it does but the lib does not know it's finished
[9:10] Hypatia Callisto: laughs
[9:10] Hamilton Linden: Yes, Tess will be in those meetings
[9:10] Tao Takashi: maybe I will utilize some hacker tools to find out ;-)
[9:10] Dr Scofield: saijanai: lol
[9:10] Locklainn Linden: haha
[9:11] Locklainn Linden: be s ure tolet me know please! haha
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: not joking actually
[9:11] Locklainn Linden: be sure to let me know please*
[9:11] Rex Cronon: i guess u r allowed to hack yourself:)
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: zero had to before when gp attempts toped 80
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: TP attempts
[9:11] Hamilton Linden: good point Sai
[9:11] Tao Takashi: I will let you know :)
[9:12] Adam Zaius: Actually.
[9:12] Locklainn Linden: awesome
[9:12] Adam Zaius: Thinking about it for a moment.
[9:12] Adam Zaius: and it's related to IM since it's just a special form of IM, but
[9:12] Tao Takashi: do you actually have another reverese http guru now? :)
[9:12] Adam Zaius: the Offer Teleport would be really helpful after we get TP's down.
[9:12] Adam Zaius: Being able to 'offer teleport' cross-grid would be mindblowingly awesome./
[9:12] Hamilton Linden: Definitely Adam
[9:12] BlueWall Slade: Adam++
[9:12] Dr Scofield: +1
[9:12] Hamilton Linden: +10 Adam
[9:12] Baba Yamamoto: isnt everything a special form of IM?
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: unlocking group IM would open 75%+ of the functionality of SL to the intergrid
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: making it a real XML based webservice would be amazing
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: everything except voice and local chat, I think
[9:13] Locklainn Linden: Tao, I'm not sure what you mean by 'have a guru', like a LL guru?
[9:13] Hamilton Linden: Speaking of which Adam, how important is friend's list (because if you have presence
and offer teleport)
[9:13] Adam Zaius: Group IM is a nasty edge case, I'd rather leave that one for later since the amount of work
required would lead to more results spent elsewhere.
[9:13] Adam Zaius: Friends list would be helpful, but isnt required - if the other person can IM you first.
[9:13] Hamilton Linden: so IM before friends list?
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: would be excellent to be able to offer teleport to someone in facebook!
[9:14] Hamilton Linden: would be your preference
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Adam, I want it taken into pyogp asap, so we can hammer on it in Python
[9:14] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: I'd probably say IM first myself, but friends might be dead simple.
[9:14] Rex Cronon: isn't facebook 2d?
[9:14] Hamilton Linden: Agreed Adam
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: facebook is participated in by humans mostly, as is SL
[9:14] Ehdward Spengler: using the anology of the 2d web - right now, a web page tells the browser where to
get images, etc from and the browser sends a request to get it and display it. couldnt inventories be similar.
then an inventory database could be anywhere
[9:14] Baba Yamamoto: rex, don't worry about details like that
[9:14] Infinity Linden: well... AjaxLife is a bit 2d as well
[9:14] Locklainn Linden: Sai, before we do that we have to talk to Enus and the rest to start the spec and all
taht
[9:14] Locklainn Linden: otherwise, we're going to get 3 different code bases
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: friends list is sent with EventQUeueGet, so that should be quite easy to put into the AD
(I would think)
[9:15] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: somebody who knows much about reverse http :)
[9:15] Tao Takashi: and how to implement it in various languages maybe (esp. python would be handy right now)
[9:15] Locklainn Linden: Tao, yea, the ones who coded it haha
[9:16] Locklainn Linden: coded it on the AD servers*
[9:16] Adam Zaius: Ack, EventQueueGet.
[9:16] Adam Zaius: IT BURNS US.
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, there's not that much to know. The sample code Donovan posted is about all there is
to it unless you want to implement it in a library
[9:16] Tao Takashi: Sai: the only problem would be to understand it ;-)
[9:16] Baba Yamamoto: libsecondlife will have rhttp soon ;)
[9:17] Tao Takashi: and as I remember the sample code also did not really work for me
[9:17] Dr Scofield: nice
[9:17] Tao Takashi: cool, Baba
[9:17] Locklainn Linden: Said, and Don's code uses Eventlets
[9:17] Locklainn Linden: Sai*
[9:17] LaPiscean Liberty: hytml
[9:17] Charlesk Bing: We may also wish to test this logic to transport between DeepGrid and OSGrid and back to
test OpenSim<->OpenSim as well as SL<->OpenSim.
[9:17] Dr Scofield: will take a look at it for the new OSHttpServer code then
[9:17] Tao Takashi: I also would like to see how to use it with plain http libs
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but the principle is found in any complete 1.1 implementation.
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: SL is really 2d in a practical sense. Can you reach your hand into your 2d monitor?
[9:17] Tao Takashi: and maybe some counterpart which implements it right to test it against
[9:17] Adam Zaius: Charles: exactly why I'm interested in implementing the Agent Domain on the OGS standard
servers.
[9:18] Tao Takashi: some counterpart which isn't a whole sim maybe ;-)
[9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: could swear I tested it with the BASE library in Python
[9:18] Baba Yamamoto: tao, it should be fine as long as you have http client and server libs and they support
upgrades
[9:18] Tao Takashi: post code, Sai :)
[9:18] Tao Takashi: well, I haven#t look too deep into it anyway, I might do so someday
[9:19] Locklainn Linden: def, and if you could, put it on the pyogp wiki
[9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: of course, maybe I dramed that but I thought I did... :-(
[9:19] Charlesk Bing: What are the actions items for OpenSim over the next week or two?
[9:19] Tao Takashi: one question might be: how do we communicate? via sldev?
[9:19] Tree Kyomoon: wonders how many people other than developers currently use opensim
[9:20] Dr Scofield: try and get zha's patch into at least an OpenSim branch
[9:20] Charlesk Bing: Thousands
[9:20] Baba Yamamoto: charlesk, rewriting login
[9:20] Charlesk Bing: k
[9:20] hackerpc1 Lewsey: hi
[9:21] BlueWall Slade: could we get a configuration setting the the client to enter osgrid as a login
destination?
[9:21] BlueWall Slade: *in the client*
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: /are the open sim useage stats available somewhere online?
[9:22] Baba Yamamoto: bluewall thre is a gridselector in debug options?
[9:22] Charlesk Bing: Look at the "grids" page on the opensimulator.org wiki.
[9:22] Hamilton Linden: So let's start wrapping up this meeting
[9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: doh. THOT I tested it... :-(
[9:23] Locklainn Linden: haha
[9:23] Latif Khalifa: Baba, i think on SL-dev there was mention of allowing arbitrary login url on the login
screen of the viewer
[9:23] Hamilton Linden: To summarize the meeting, Linden Lab asked if the OpenSim folks they'd be interested
in interop testing with our agent domain once we got it working for login and teleport
[9:23] BlueWall Slade: baba: Ctrl+Shift+G gets a list in the lower RH corner in teh RC clients
[9:24] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton: One last point. We hold an "Office Hour" at 1900UTC each Tuesday on "Wright
Plaza" on OSGrid to discuss the weeks software activities for OpenSim and all are welcome.
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: I guess I just see this fretting and fussing over opensim interop, but the elephant in the room
aka facebook, youtube, google, open IM etc, are being brushed aside
[9:24] Baba Yamamoto: blue, not sure how the grids are set.. i think there is an xml file with a grid list
[9:24] Hamilton Linden: Charles I'd like to come to that
[9:24] Hamilton Linden: BTW what is UTC in terms of PST?
[9:24] Dr Scofield: tree, one step at a time, i guess
[9:24] BlueWall Slade: basba: ok - wil look there - thanks
[9:25] Hamilton Linden: We also got good feedback in terms of what you'd like our roadmap to be
[9:25] Dr Scofield: hamilton: -9 i think
[9:25] Hamilton Linden: Everything discussed here is going straight into our development planning
[9:25] Harleen Gretzky: 7 hours behind during PDT
[9:25] Tao Takashi: Tree: well, you should maybe join effoerts like dataportability.org and the DiSO project,
they are thinking about more interoperability
[9:25] Hamilton Linden: so we really appreciate it!
[9:25] Adam Zaius: IIRC the OSGrid hours are just after Zero's?
[9:25] Adam Zaius: (on Tues that is)
[9:25] Tao Takashi: I am already trying to bridge these efforts a little bit by taking proposed standards to
use back and forth
[9:26] LaPiscean Liberty: [4]
[9:26] Charlesk Bing: 1900UTC == noon PDT or 3PM EDT
[9:26] Tao Takashi: so it's before Zero's I think
[9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW< WHich LInden office hours at 11 AM> I'm counting those as AWG-related on the wiki
these days (lucky him)
[9:27] Dr Scofield: has always been rubbish with timezones
[9:27] Infinity Linden: oh... and I see there's a test hour as well
[9:27] BlueWall Slade: livin' on SLT :)
[9:27] Infinity Linden: for osgrit
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: just looks at the SL clock in the viewer window
[9:27] Adam Zaius: Test hour is our triage for bugs. :)
[9:27] Hamilton Linden: I want to thank you guys for this great discussion
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: thanks Tao I'll look into that! I just want to keep these things on the table
[9:27] Tao Takashi: I want to think Linden Lab for pushing this forward :)
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: thats why im here :)
[9:27] BlueWall Slade: thank you Hamilton!
[9:27] Charlesk Bing: We have a taunt the last five minutes of "Test Hour" to any wizard to bring the sim
down. We dont always succeed in bringing it down, which is good.
[9:28] Tao Takashi: I am also very much interested in getting my data from A to B and use my account whereever
I like etc.
[9:28] Flight Band: All Go
[9:28] Charlesk Bing: Thank you kindly, Hamilton.
[9:28] BlueWall Slade: Tao++
[9:28] Tao Takashi: and esp. share my friends etc.
[9:28] Adam Zaius: Yeah, thanks for this discussion.
[9:28] Tao Takashi: and not redefine them on every social network
[9:28] Dr Scofield: thx!
[9:28] Tao Takashi: and in this regard I see OGP more or less like a social network
[9:28] Hamilton Linden: It's been great getting sync'd up on how we can work together with you
[9:29] Hamilton Linden: Great analogy Tao
[9:29] Tree Kyomoon: SL is vastly more than a social network :)
[9:29] Tao Takashi: I also created [5] (and need to work on this more)
as a collection of libraries supporting such things
[9:29] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton, likewise. We have the highest of respect and appreciation for secondlife.
[9:29] Baba Yamamoto: tree, not really
[9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: for future reference to meeting schedule:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings
[9:29] Baba Yamamoto: a social network is vastly more than facebook ;)
[9:30] Hypatia Callisto: is not a huge fan of social networks such as facebook, but to each his own :P
[9:30] BlueWall Slade: SL == Socializing Network
[9:30] Tao Takashi: well, my vision for the future is more likely to have specialized services which build
upon your social graph
[9:30] Tao Takashi: which they can subscribe to
[9:30] Tao Takashi: so I can pick and choose what I want
[9:30] Orion Shamroy: No, SL = Socializing Universe :0)
[9:30] Hamilton Linden: Thanks folks!
[9:30] BlueWall Slade: Orion++
[9:30] Charlesk Bing: Bye, Hamilton.
[9:30] Dr Scofield: bye!
[9:30] Hypatia Callisto: thanks :))
[9:31] Tao Takashi: and the social graph does not need to live on every social network but should be more "on
top" of it all
[9:31] BlueWall Slade: G'Day!
[9:31] Robinella Muliaina: bye hamilton
[9:31] Tao Takashi: cya Hamilton
[9:31] Locklainn Linden: Bye everyone!
[9:31] Hamilton Linden: One last thing, contact Periapse Linden if you're interested in interop testing
[9:31] Adam Zaius: Seeya
[9:31] Tree Kyomoon: SL is a platform that is mostly used for a social network. 70,000,000 people are fans of facebook.
Im not particularly, but it seems dumb to keep ourselves in an exclusive ivory tower and maintain a wall
between us and "the common people"
[9:31] Dex Mason: thanks
[9:31] Hamilton Linden: or myself if you can't reach him
[9:31] Rex Cronon: bye hamilton
[9:31] Dr Scofield: train to catch, cu all around! bye!
[9:31] Rex Cronon: bye dr
[9:31] Hypatia Callisto: I sort of view facebook as I would people who enjoy movies and going to the theater
:)
[9:31] Robinella Muliaina: I have to go too but thanks for the enlighting discussion on the OpenSim
[9:31] Tao Takashi: Tree: that's right and it makes sense to have the same friends here as on FB if you allow
for such connections
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: who got the full transcript?
[9:32] Hamilton Linden: I'll be publishing the transcript
[9:32] Hypatia Callisto: some like one and some like the other, and some like botha nd some like neither :)
not really related
[9:32] Eddy Stryker: is data portability done yet
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: but we can also make interoperability between the platforms. I am mystified as to why people here
dont seem to get that
[9:32] Hamilton Linden: in Zero's office hours where all the other ones are
[9:32] Tao Takashi: Eddy: no, it's more in the beginning ;-)
[9:32] Baba Yamamoto: eddy, they're taking their sweet time with it
[9:32] Tao Takashi: Eddy: The problem is more politics of course
[9:33] Eddy Stryker: baba: who is "they"?
[9:33] LaPiscean Liberty: Agreed Tree
[9:33] Eddy Stryker: and does it conform to [6] ?
[9:33] Baba Yamamoto: they.. these people here ;P
[9:33] Tao Takashi: the important think IMHO is to try to make this platform we create here to be as open as
possible
[9:33] Hypatia Callisto: like my partner thinks SL is for the birds, and I think social networks are... we're
totally different. Some grok 2d more than 3d and vice versa
[9:33] Baba Yamamoto: eddy, asset migration will require "co development with existing vendors"
[9:34] Tao Takashi: and maybe implement (controlled) ways of syncing/exporting/importing data directly into it
[9:34] Baba Yamamoto: or something
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: exactly, so XML based webservices instead of proprietary hidden data communication
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hence the OGP from LInden Lab and the OSG from OpenSIm
[9:34] Eddy Stryker: baba: not really, i did it the other day just fine
[9:34] Tao Takashi: and standardized protocols
[9:34] Tao Takashi: but also keep control in place
[9:34] Eddy Stryker: is confused
[9:34] Tao Takashi: so I can say what I want to expose to which service and which person
[9:34] Dirk Talamasca: Please don't grok, Hypatia
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Eddy, was a reference to the political issue of how to create a intergrid permissions
system
[9:34] Hypatia Callisto: :P
[9:35] Tree Kyomoon: I want to have a camera on my sim, aim it at an interactive 3d thing I make, and port that camera
view to an embedded object in an HTML page or a flash application
[9:35] Eddy Stryker: ahh
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: That's the topic at next week's office hours
[9:35] Tao Takashi: ok, I need to head off, some work is waiting
[9:35] Tao Takashi: great discussion! :)

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 26

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