User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20080910

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Agenda

Today we released Draft 3 of the Open Grid Protocol. Tess and Infinity dropped in to talk about the updated spec and answer questions.

Chat Log

  • [13:22] Whump Linden: Hey, Teravus.
  • [13:23] Teravus Ousley: Afternoon Bill.
  • [13:23] Teravus Ousley: was reading the draft and didn't want to read it.. through the meeting.. by forgetting the time.
  • [13:25] Whump Linden: Well, Tess and Infinity will be here soon and they're ready to answer questions.
  • [13:26] Teravus Ousley: looks fairly similar in the region domain space
  • [13:27] Whump Linden: yes, the major change is reviewing the avatar data before handing it off to the new region.
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: HGey Enus, er, Whump
  • [13:30] Whump Linden: Hey Saijanai
  • [13:30] Whump Linden: Zha
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: Where?
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: Is that slacker back from vacation?
  • [13:30] Xugu Madison: wow, people at a meeting! IT's been a while...
  • [13:31] Whump Linden: Publish a new draft and everyone comes out of the woodwork.
  • [13:31] Xugu Madison: There's an important lesson here
  • [13:31] Xugu Madison: I'm just not sure what it is
  • [13:31] Zha Ewry: Publish early and often
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: hola
  • [13:31] Zha Ewry: Oh, and publish in Chicago, where dead people can publish.
  • [13:31] Whump Linden: Hey, Tess, Infinity!
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley: Hi
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: Its raining lindens
  • [13:32] Tess Linden: hey :)
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: yay! the gang's all here!
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: Okay, so the new draft of OGP has gone up on the wiki: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Protocol
  • [13:34] Whump Linden: At this time, we've not made changes to the Agent Domain, or our Regions.
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: and of course you've all been able to review it, so we'll have three minutes of discussion followed by ratification (joke)
  • [13:34] Teravus Ousley: hehe, so we'll change it to rez_avatar/rez on the region domain..
  • [13:34] Xugu Madison: First thought; there's at least two docs on LLSD now, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OGP_LLSD and https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LLSD
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: and soon there will be one more
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: WRT LLSD
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: we're trying to unify all the docs
  • [13:35] Whump Linden: Yes, need a disambigugation page.
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: into one doc
  • [13:35] Xugu Madison: Cool, as long as you know
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: after which we say "everything else is depricated"
  • [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: wow crazy visua artifacts right now. Non-stop flickering textures
  • [13:35] Whump Linden: Xugu: yes, thanks for pointing that out
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: hmm.. is that 'cause we're talkinga bout L-LSD?
  • [13:36] Teravus Ousley: considers a JSON implementation..
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: yeah.. .when you add the various descriptions of LLSD in the spec, in the wiki and the comments in the code, yeah... it was a touch confusing
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: Teravus... that is coming
  • [13:36] Whump Linden: So, since we didn't have a lot of time for people to review before this meeting, maybe Tess or Infinity could do a quick run through of what's new?
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: okay.. .want me to go first?
  • [13:37] Teravus Ousley: notes it doesn't appear to change 'much' from the region domain service perspective.
  • [13:37] Whump Linden: sure
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: okay.. i think the base document did not change
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: we introduced LLIDL
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: or LL interface description language
  • [13:37] Whump Linden: Oh, and I should point out that we've split the document into four parts now.
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: which is the formal specification for resource classes
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: yup. very true
  • [13:38] Whump Linden: tries not to think of WS-*
  • [13:38] Teravus Ousley: >.>
  • [13:38] Teravus Ousley: <.<
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: eek
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: well... at least our documents are written such that the could also be combined as chapters in a single spec
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: and who knows
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: maybe that'll be done
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: after internal review, we all kind of agreed that my first hack at the LLIDL section was weak
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: not an epic fail, but i admit, it is not entirely clear
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: so i'm in the process of rewriting it
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: we're publishing this draft to "get something out there"
  • [13:40] Zha Ewry: chuckles, so a mildly heroic fail?
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: nah.. i'm thinking really o the Rock Band ratings...
  • [13:40] Xugu Madison: LLIDL looks less like someone forced a standard into XML, at least :)
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: like "Weak Solo" or something
  • [13:40] Tess Linden: but as you'll see in the teleport authentication sections, they now include llidl to give you more exact specs
  • [13:40] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [13:40] Zha Ewry: "You broke three strings, but you hand isn't bleeding"
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: LLIDL is "the" standard for how we describe abstract data types
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: XML is now just a serialization
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: and after much discussion
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: we're going to add "official" serializations for JSON and a binary encoding
  • [13:41] Xugu Madison: So, for example, we'll be seeing a RegAPI LLIDL then?
  • [13:41] Zha Ewry: Excellent
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: it is entirely possible
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: but i don't want to speak for that team
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: it may be RegAPI or son of RegAPI
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: but even if it's not, we could probably take the XML they use
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: and back convert it to LLIDL
  • [13:42] Xugu Madison: They said we'd have news on son of, within a fortnight, so probably son of RegAPI
  • [13:43] Zha Ewry: chuckles, Bastard, unwanted child of RegApi
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: yay! i got out of that without having to commit another team with an action item!
  • [13:43] Teravus Ousley: hehe
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: but seriously... i'll chat with them about their plans
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: but it's waaaaay premature to announce anything
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: and RegAPI is not under my control
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: moving along
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: since we may be short of time
  • [13:44] Teravus Ousley: agent info { // Under construction }
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: we have a new auth scheme
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: we've sort of formalized the account / agent relationship
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: so you can authenticate yerself using an account credential
  • [13:45] Tess Linden: avatar info?
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: if it's supported
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: or an agent creential
  • [13:45] Teravus Ousley: in the vetted rez_avatar
  • [13:45] Teravus Ousley: avatar data: ? ; under construction
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: mmm... the identifiers and credentials for auth are distinct from the avatar data
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: we added two new authentication schemes
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: as there are some serious concerns about the use of MD5 in an environment where you ahve authenticators
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: running between administrative domains
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: in the past we got away with it 'cause all the MD5ed passwords went over SSL
  • [13:47] Teravus Ousley: nods
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: but the message you should take away is
  • [13:47] Zha Ewry: Which gives you a fair bit of cover, SSL, being pretty solid
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: it's entirely possible we will deploy new auth schemes in the future
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: and they would probably look a lot like what you see in the spec
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: that being said
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: this is not an announcement of a new service
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: os
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:48] Xugu Madison: In particular, if you're just sending the MD5 of the password, not MD5 of password + timestamp, aren't you vulnerable to repeat attacks?
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: no comment
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: and Xugu
  • [13:49] Zha Ewry: You are, Xugu, if its in plaintext
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: security issues would take up ALL of the remaining time
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: maybe we could defer them for right now
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: no problem!
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: again, as long as you're aware
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: one more thing before i handoff to tess
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: login-time, per-user maintenance has been added to the spec
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: so essentially what you might get from an auth request is (fail, success - here's a seed cap, or uhoh - here's a cap to a resource describing when i'm going to be finished iwth maintenance)
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: and that's about it
  • [13:51] Zha Ewry: This is so you can do a arbitraty lenght maint step on login?
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: quick questions before i hand off to Tess?
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: technically yes
  • [13:51] Zha Ewry: (on a per account basi)
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: and the idea is that the maint cap reference will have an estimate for how long maint will take
  • [13:51] Zha Ewry: We'll assume its normally miinutes or seconds, not days or weeks
  • [13:51] Zha Ewry: Does it loop on the maint cap?
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: at the end of that period, you access the cap again and if it's really finished
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: you get your seed cap
  • [13:52] Zha Ewry: Ahhhh
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: (or another maint cap)
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: but yeah
  • [13:52] Zha Ewry: So you can loop on it, and if it wants it could update the status
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: the spec says maint can go on forever
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: but i think if we did that
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: we would lose a lot of residents
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: os
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: os
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: we're not going to do it
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: and now i hand off to Tess...
  • [13:53] Tess Linden: the spec just allows the option for maintenance
  • [13:53] Tess Linden: so Teleport. Notice we hadded a Vetted Avatar Data section
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [13:54] Tess Linden: the current protocol trusts sim A to serialize your avatar to sim B, but who's to say sim B would transform your avatar completely, and teleporting back to sim A would overwrite what you'd like it to be?
  • [13:54] Teravus Ousley: technically, that can come from a simulator also though.. in the case of derez
  • [13:55] Teravus Ousley: right.. or send null.. and .. ooops where'd you go?
  • [13:55] Tess Linden: The Teleport Sequence section now explains the UML diagram pretty much but in words
  • [13:56] Tess Linden: We included notes for everything thats deployed differently
  • [13:56] Tess Linden: couple of big key changes
  • [13:56] Tess Linden: 'region_url' is renamed to 'public_region_seed_capability'
  • [13:57] Tess Linden: and seed_capability is renamed to region_seed_capability to distinguish from agent_seed_capability
  • [13:57] Tess Linden: also 'rez_avatar/rez' instead of "rez_avatar"
  • [13:57] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:57] Graph Weymann: personally I'd call it seed_cap...when everything is a capability, talking about it too verbosely makes it hard to think about :)
  • [13:58] Tess Linden: Graph: we do have to distinguish between the different seed caps because only certain cap names can be granted depending on who's handling the seed
  • [13:58] Whump Linden: And again, we've not deployed this yet. We're working out the plan for that.
  • [13:58] Graph Weymann: Sure, I mean don't spell out "capability" -- adds verbosity with little info
  • [13:58] Graph Weymann: for that matter, just call them foo_seed
  • [13:58] Graph Weymann: unless you have seed corn as well as seed caps
  • [13:59] Tess Linden: Notice the change in formatting of the entire document. For each suite, we describe the resource and provide the LLIDL for each specific interface
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: it would be nice, if we could have an overlaping deployment, so that new path code can be tested before we break old path
  • [13:59] Teravus Ousley: It's much more clear.
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: thinks of where we might sew corn in the spec
  • [13:59] Stu Paulino: So what does everyone do here
  • [14:00] Tess Linden: Zha: yes, thats the plan
  • [14:00] Mirt Tenk: we're currently in a meeting Stu, working on code
  • [14:01] Teravus Ousley: the changes are so similar as far as region domain goes.. it could be done simply as far as that's concerned.
  • [14:01] Teravus Ousley: (two versions)
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: I think that mighrt be nicest, but if we roll it onto a few sims first, that would be tolerable
  • [14:01] Stu Paulino: no probs guys, over my head anyway. Just exploring
  • [14:02] Whump Linden: and we could put out a separate AD that one could call from a command line argument
  • [14:02] Teravus Ousley: wonders if he could also run them simulataniously for a while on the RD
  • [14:02] Stu Paulino: I willleave you to ot
  • [14:02] Teravus Ousley: will have to experiment mentally :D
  • [14:02] Whump Linden: / no worries, Stu
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: i don't want to speak for the ops team or for the folk who will be doing the work... but that sounds like a plan
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: we've had different code on login0 and login1 in the past
  • [14:04] Tess Linden: There's a big change that isn't obvious. The region_seed_capability that you get back from rez_avatar/request is also what is used to request derez with
  • [14:05] Tess Linden: region_seed_capability is essentialy tied to this particular agent for this particular session
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: nods thoughrfgully
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: That just requires stashing the association
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: we end up with a lot of stashed state for the logged in ave, but that's sort of unavoidable
  • [14:06] Tess Linden: Zha: what do you mean stashed state?
  • [14:06] Teravus Ousley: nods.. gotta pass them around in order to get them back to vaak and other LL systems
  • [14:06] Zha Ewry: You need to keep some state about whence the ave came from, and what cap you issued, and such. its pretty unavoidable
  • [14:07] Zha Ewry: The only place it gets tricky, is deciding when you can flush it
  • [14:07] Zha Ewry: You want to keep it until the last moment, on the way out, so you can handle timed out, and failed derez requests
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: I don't think its avoidable, given the nature of doing this REST style
  • [14:08] Tess Linden: the way region seed caps currently work is if you stop polling the event queue it'll revoke your caps
  • [14:08] Teravus Ousley: well, I think it's clear that this is primarily a grid service. So, regardless of which region a user is in.. the state should be kept until the avatar moves to a different region domain.
  • [14:08] Teravus Ousley: .. as far as the region domain is concerned
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: yes
  • [14:09] Tess Linden: it can be tricky though. On agni today, you can have the seed cap of a neighboring region in order to get updates
  • [14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: you need to pol the region cap?
  • [14:09] Tess Linden: you poll the event queue cap thats granted by the region cap
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: I just noticed some remarkably careful to watch holes you could get on not quite right derezes
  • [14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: that's different than the cap for AD presence?
  • [14:10] Whump Linden: I think there's a confusion over the region seed cap and if its something kept around througout the agent's session connected to the agent domain?
  • [14:10] Teravus Ousley: notes that the event queue isn't implemented on OpenSim.. so it's a moot point as far as that's concerned.. but could just as easily revoke it on derez
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: yeah, tho, i expect, sooner or later, probably sooner, we'll have to impement it
  • [14:11] Teravus Ousley: agreed.. I've brought it up several times..
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: We should take tha offline, We need to chase some stuff in terms of doing that in a good performing fashion
  • [14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: EQG for agent Domain seems to take forever to return sometimes
  • [14:12] Tess Linden: whats nice about llidl is it looks a lot like code, which includes error responses
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [14:12] Teravus Ousley: Yes, it's much more clear described that way, Tess
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: I would have loved to see that when I was doing the POC coding ;-)
  • [14:13] Tess Linden: Each of these notes here should be in a Jira task for getting the grid up to spec
  • [14:13] Tess Linden: well, our code isn't even close to the spec yet, so theres a lot more to code against this new spec
  • [14:14] Tess Linden: Whump? Im ready to pass on the mic
  • [14:14] eaglefx Binder: Good Evening
  • [14:14] Whump Linden: Okay, thanks Tess, Infinity.
  • [14:14] Infinity Linden: yer welcome... just happy the specs escaped
  • [14:14] Xugu Madison: Indeed, thanks Tess & Infinity!
  • [14:14] Tess Linden:  :) me too, thanks for bringing us in whump
  • [14:15] Whump Linden: So, I'll have a schedule for how we are going to make Draft 3 live within the next few days.
  • [14:15] Zha Ewry: now has this image of the specs sneakign around on little legs leaping onto the wiki when Infinity wasn't looking.
  • [14:15] Infinity Linden: and Whump
  • [14:15] Infinity Linden: i notice that Tao's not here
  • [14:15] Whump Linden: So other updates, we are down to six open issues on Jira.
  • [14:15] Infinity Linden: he's probably going to have something to say about the deploy as well
  • [14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: vacation for 2 weeks. I'm his not-so-competent proxy
  • [14:15] Teravus Ousley: Hmm.. ok so the same cap will be invoked on derez.. we'll keep state on the avatar, so will know if it's being invoked based on our state for rez or derez
  • [14:15] Infinity Linden: okay
  • [14:15] Infinity Linden: forgot about that
  • [14:16] Whump Linden: Oh, Teravus, you had a question yesterday from OpenSim OO about the UUID we pass.
  • [14:16] Zha Ewry: listens
  • [14:17] Whump Linden: " however it's been requested that the client attempt to connect to the region with a UUID given to it by the OGP service instead of the Aditi UUID."
  • [14:17] Teravus Ousley: oh, yes.. I was just asking if there was a way that we can tell the agent domain to have the client use a specific UUID in the UseCircuitCode packet
  • [14:18] Teravus Ousley: .. that way, we could ensure.. that there was no way for someone to manually mangle their avatar/UUID in the database and have them overlap
  • [14:18] Zha Ewry: This is going to get us into the messy is it fname/lname ot uuid that matters discussion
  • [14:18] Infinity Linden: blergh.
  • [14:18] Teravus Ousley: hehe
  • [14:18] Infinity Linden: we should bring it up with Zero tomorrow morning
  • [14:19] Zha Ewry: (and it probably, long term needs to be fname/lname/domain, or uuid/domain, anyway
  • [14:19] Infinity Linden: identity registration has been getting a lot of discussion lately
  • [14:19] Infinity Linden: +1 Zha
  • [14:19] Zha Ewry: since, there's no coherent way to manae fname/lname == uuid globally without going insane
  • [14:19] Infinity Linden: funny... i have a note on my desk right now that says exactly the same thing
  • [14:19] Zha Ewry: *MANAGE
  • [14:19] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [14:19] Infinity Linden: not MANGLE?
  • [14:20] Zha Ewry: Oh, mangling is easy
  • [14:20] Zha Ewry: Managing it coherently, that's harder
  • [14:20] Teravus Ousley: haha, it is indeed
  • [14:21] Zha Ewry: Wow. We've been driven into silence
  • [14:22] Whump Linden: Okay, any other questions?
  • [14:22] Infinity Linden: 'cause we're so 4w3sum?
  • [14:22] Teravus Ousley: shakes head. LLIDL = clear
  • [14:22] Zha Ewry: is power skimming the printed documents
  • [14:22] Whump Linden: There are some OSGrid regions running OGP as of now.
  • [14:22] Xugu Madison: Whump, very quickly before we wrapup; totally failed to do anything I said I'd do, sorry, someone put a digger through the powerline at work and it all went downhill from there
  • [14:23] Zha Ewry: Out of curisoity, the sequence diagrams while not definitive, are we goign to look at having them in the spec, in time? They're really nice to be able to skim
  • [14:23] Infinity Linden: WRT LLIDL and Auth... i'll try to be more available over the next week for discussions in world or via email
  • [14:23] Whump Linden: Xugu no problem. Backhoes do that sort of thing all the time.
  • [14:24] Infinity Linden: lol... Zha... Tess, Whump and I were having that exact discussion yesterday
  • [14:24] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [14:24] Zha Ewry: did you come to any conclusions?
  • [14:24] Zha Ewry: i'd vote for them in
  • [14:24] Infinity Linden: i think we agreed that our preference is for the specs to be mostly textual
  • [14:24] Tess Linden: Zha: zero says that the UML diagrams may contradict the spec so cannot be in the spec itself but should maybe be part of a "Explained" doc
  • [14:24] Teravus Ousley: hurricanes also delay flights.. even 5 days in advance
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: thinks
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: that requires one more bit of synced paper
  • [14:25] Infinity Linden: might be a good topic for Zero's OO's tomorrow morning
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: I'm perfectly happy with them being tagged as "non normative"
  • [14:25] Infinity Linden: ah
  • [14:25] Infinity Linden: okay
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: Good topic for tommorow
  • [14:25] Infinity Linden: we're very interested in having a "normative" spec
  • [14:26] Infinity Linden: and a separate exegesis document
  • [14:26] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [14:26] Infinity Linden: both of which are "official"
  • [14:26] Infinity Linden: but the spec defines mechanism, not policy
  • [14:26] Zha Ewry: That always leaves the sync issue, but either approach is valid
  • [14:27] Infinity Linden: and the "OGP Explained" doc privides more guidance
  • [14:27] Infinity Linden: yeah... i think we're paranoid that ew might have a normative spec where diagrams contradict the text
  • [14:27] Whump Linden: I've updated that with the new teleport UML
  • [14:27] Infinity Linden: it would be "very bad"
  • [14:27] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [14:27] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OGP_Explained#OGP_Draft_3_Teleport
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: well, all you ve to do, is tag the diagrams as non-normative
  • [14:28] Infinity Linden: and if the OGP Explained is "not exactly normitive" it's less of a big deal
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: btu.. I have to say, I've been on both sides of this debate, over the years
  • [14:28] Infinity Linden: hmm... well.. the specs will eventually be published in XML
  • [14:28] Infinity Linden: you could break out the XSLT foo and create a doc that combines the two
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: wimpers
  • [14:29] Zha Ewry: and never know if you were mungign synced versions
  • [14:29] Infinity Linden: XML Heretic!!!!
  • [14:29] Zha Ewry: dimly recalls an OMG meeting in philadelphia and looks for something to drink
  • [14:29] Whump Linden: okay, and with that....
  • [14:29] Infinity Linden: the use of XML ensures "compatibility with the future"
  • [14:29] Infinity Linden: (that was a joke, btw)
  • [14:29] Teravus Ousley: haha
  • [14:30] Zha Ewry: Okies
  • [14:30] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [14:30] Zha Ewry: Very nice, and glad it's out
  • [14:30] Infinity Linden: I was Borland's rep to the OMG for a couple years
  • [14:30] Zha Ewry: Now to read and comment, and such
  • [14:30] Infinity Linden: after VisiJeff left
  • [14:30] Whump Linden: thinks maybe I should put in a bar, or a least a stash of scotch.
  • [14:30] Infinity Linden: i definitely remember that most of OMG spec foo was decided at the bar
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: is deeply suspciious we shared OMG meetings
  • [14:31] Teravus Ousley: hehe
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: probably
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: don't remember philly
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: but sevral in boston and at least one in Mesa, AZ
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: oh oh
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: alos
  • [14:31] Infinity Linden: also
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: recalls Philly, Denver, LA, Boston, Mesa, London, Tokyo
  • [14:32] Infinity Linden: someone mentioned that the architecture of X-Windows was eventually finalized on a napkin at Jing Jing in Palo Alto
  • [14:32] Teravus Ousley: yay for napkin notes..
  • [14:32] Infinity Linden: we're considering taking a field trip there if for no other reason than to get that g33k mojo working for us
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [14:32] Teravus Ousley: has a few of those framed himself
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: really
  • [14:33] Zha Ewry: at some point, I should tell the horrible story of the first DSOM server deploy I ever did.
  • [14:33] Infinity Linden: remembers the days when business plans could be submitted to VCs on bar napkins
  • [14:33] Infinity Linden: 94?
  • [14:33] Zha Ewry: 93
  • [14:33] Zha Ewry: internal alpha
  • [14:33] Infinity Linden: I was working with the toro-lab folk hten
  • [14:33] Infinity Linden: having just migrated from Convex
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: I will merely wince and observe that the orginal alpha code, put a class on one and only one ORB
  • [14:34] Xugu Madison: I have to run, thanks for hosting Whump, see you later all!
  • [14:34] Infinity Linden: don't tell me... let me guess... licence manager problems?
  • [14:34] Whump Linden: thanks's Xugu
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: and if you had a class which laminated several classes, and they ended up on
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: multiple ORBS
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: you could have several dozen
  • [14:34] Whump Linden: I think we're done with the meeting and into the swapping of war stories.
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: RPCs to construct a class
  • [14:34] Infinity Linden: yay! and people wonder why we don't just adopt CORBA as our communication middleware!
  • [14:34] Mirt Tenk: ty, srry late
  • [14:35] Zha Ewry: yeah
  • [14:35] Infinity Linden: totally
  • [14:35] Zha Ewry: So, We have a ocuple of topics for tomorow's office hours. Yeah!
  • [14:35] Infinity Linden: reviewing the scars we recieved after falling off bar stools at various standards meetings
  • [14:35] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [14:35] Zha Ewry: Super
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: i'll ping zero so it's not a surprise
  • [14:36] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: oh wait
  • [14:36] Whump Linden: Infinity: Zero is in transit.
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: he's working out of a different office
  • [14:36] Zha Ewry: Then we can start wrassling about how we want to do cross component proof of truyst in the large
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: i don't think he's coming in to our office before going home
  • [14:36] Infinity Linden: maybe an email
  • [14:36] Zha Ewry: ok, everyone see you all anon
  • [14:37] Infinity Linden: cheers
  • [14:37] pjay Luik: please help me
  • [14:37] Teravus Ousley: ok, thanks for coming.. have a great evening.. afternoon
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: yes, thanks everyone
  • [14:37] Infinity Linden: i'm going to escape so i can get something done
  • [14:37] Cane Janick: Thank you
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: woah, I see Nebadon and hear a Yoko Kanno soundtrack.
  • [14:38] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
  • [14:38] eaglefx Binder:  ;)
  • [14:38] Nebadon Izumi: yea im tired of being human
  • [14:38] pjay Luik: what
  • [14:38] eaglefx Binder: cool robot
  • [14:38] Teravus Ousley: hy00man?
  • [14:38] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try not to step on anyone
  • [14:38] Nebadon Izumi:  :D
  • [14:39] eaglefx Binder: hehe
  • [14:39] pjay Luik: where can i find it
  • [14:39] Nebadon Izumi: this robot?