User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 30

From Second Life Wiki

Second Life Wiki > Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 30
Jump to: navigation, search
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: Now - I do have a bit of a monologue to start so - well, listen' up
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: Now, there have been some really good questions raised about the scope and extent of the AWG,
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: And about how it is going to go about its business
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: And some outside events have caused even more stir
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: Lastly, there has been some amount of, er, animosity in the wiki editing
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: So - my goal here is to clear some of this up
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: First off - I take a fair bit of blame
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: The timing of the first AWG meeting was really bad for me
  • [13:24] Rob Adelaide: oh goody
  • [13:24] JenzZa Misfit: argh
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: right after I gave 4 public appearances - two of them big talks out of town
  • [13:24] Nite Zelmanov: CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-= push it
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: kill the particles
  • [13:24] Morgaine Dinova: A griefer?
  • [13:24] Unmitigated Gall: just ignore them.. they go away
  • [13:24] Rex Cronon: shouts: turn the DS off
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: contol-alt-shift-minus
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: That was pretty stupid, whoever it was
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: which doesn't work in my viewer ... dang
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: anyhow
  • [13:25] JenzZa Misfit: mine either
  • [13:25] JenzZa Misfit: LOL
  • [13:25] Jessica Qin: ctrl-alt-shift-=
  • [13:25] Rob Adelaide: try ctrl+alt+shift+= zero
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: So - I've been a bit absent
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: in anyevent
  • [13:25] JenzZa Misfit: go into PREFS
  • [13:25] No Freenote: it's obviously a public service announcement.
  • [13:25] JenzZa Misfit: and put paritcal count on ZERO
  • [13:25] JenzZa Misfit: tadah
  • [13:26] JenzZa Misfit: not in kansas anymore <--- repeat
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: stop IMing me with who it is -
  • [13:26] Unmitigated Gall: wow.. good call Jenzza... even if you have never passed the bar
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: turn off your particles
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: I'll deal with them later
  • [13:27] Gareth Ellison: Zero - can we be told what subjects have been the target of this animosity on the wiki?
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: but really - if it is you - kill the damn particles
  • [13:27] Zigomar Abruzzo: zero, please shout, i dont get your say !
  • [13:27] Zigomar Abruzzo: shouts: zero, please shout, i dont get your say !
  • [13:27] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: please shout Zero
  • [13:27] Malburns Writer: Yes - ise shout Zero
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: no - I'm not going to air arguments between people that we should just avoid from now own
  • [13:27] Gareth Ellison: ok
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: Can you all hear me now?
  • [13:28] Zigomar Abruzzo: i do
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: good
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: So -
  • [13:28] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: I can
  • [13:28] Malburns Writer: yes
  • [13:28] Rob Adelaide: nods
  • [13:28] Unmitigated Gall: hmm.. if they couldnt hear you they cant answer
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: First - IBM and LL had an announcement - the press release
  • [13:28] Basil Wijaya: ya
  • [13:29] Rob Adelaide: is that release on the blog zero? I missed it
  • [13:29] Gareth Ellison: Rob: it is, and try not to sidetrack Zero
  • [13:30] Bob Bunderfeld: Zero, that release didn't mention anything about IBM helping LL with equipment or technical issues to do with the servers, is there anything forthcoming that would lead us to believe IBM is helping internally to help actually Stabilize the GRID?
  • [13:31] Seg Baphomet: Scripts are off, so they probably can't turn off their own particles. :)
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: the press release was pretty clear abut what it was
  • [13:31] Fizz Okame: zero, is linden concerned about the recent partnership between google and multiverse? why didnt you guys sign up with google, too?
  • [13:31] Gareth Ellison: Zero: to elaborate on what Bob said: is it right to say that IBM are only offering coloboration on protocol design?
  • [13:31] Goldie Katsu: Can we let Zero finish the intro.
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: Really
  • [13:32] Bob Bunderfeld: So, you are saying IBM and LL are only partnering to make a global way to for Avatars to go between worlds, and not actually helping LL with the tech issues plaguing Second Life now?
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: IBM is 1) working on some specific projects with LL 1-on-1
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: 2) trying to engage a larger, industry wide effort
  • [13:33] Fizz Okame: please turn off the darn pot leaves, already? will ya...... geez...\
  • [13:33] Dnali Anabuki: Client/Render/Particle...leaves all gone..
  • [13:33] Fizz Okame: ty
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: the first doesn't really directly releat to the AWG or other efforts - we are just involved in some mutual development
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: The second is a process that was started by IBM at the Virtual World conference in San Jose last month
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: I've met wtih them today
  • [13:34] Entering god: mode, level 200
  • [13:34] Morgaine Dinova: 3) IBM is directly present in AWG through Zha.
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: and now have a place to publically send everyone who wants to be involved with that
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: Which is here: [1]
  • [13:35] Bob Bunderfeld: So, can you say, since a lot of the people on the Blog Comments think the release meant IBM was coming to the Technical Aid of Second Life, if IBM is helping with Second Life or not?
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: The press release makes that pretty clear.
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: If you are asking if there is some underside - swooping in of IBM engineers at the Linden Lab HQs: no, there isn't
  • [13:36] Burhop Piccard: Zero - how do we know where to get involved [2] or in AWG?
  • [13:36] Rob Adelaide: Can you specify what IBM is doing to improve grid operation, if anything, seperate from this interop thing?
  • [13:36] Seg Baphomet: You seem to be defining "Technical Aid" as "Throw more hardware at it"
  • [13:37] Rob Adelaide: to rephrase, are they helping with PERFORMANCE?
  • [13:37] Gareth Ellison: if i could comment on that - the AWG stuff will naturally lead to vastly improved performance
  • [13:37] Fizz Okame: multiverse and google working together are going to put sl out of business if there isnt serious development happening at Linden and IBM. Its a real concern
  • [13:37] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: This is exciting...thanks Zero
  • [13:38] Bob Bunderfeld: The Press Release, read at IBM, speaks quite differently about what they are doing, then what was posted on the Linden Blog. This is what have people wondering what, if anything, IBM is doing to help Linden lab with Second Life.
  • [13:38] Tao Takashi: Gareth: that's at least the hope :-)
  • [13:38] Tao Takashi: but with some probability
  • [13:39] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: Google is not going to set up a competitor with SL
  • [13:39] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: they will make it possible for avatars to enter the maps
  • [13:39] Dnali Anabuki: shouts: not the same thing IMHO
  • [13:39] Gareth Ellison: Dnali: that is going to be a massive competitor to SL
  • [13:39] Morgaine Dinova: Bob: I don't see how either IBM's or LL's press statements could be interpreted to mean that. They're pretty clear. They're about futures.
  • [13:39] Fizz Okame: google buys everything it sees to put places like sl out of business! dont fool yourself! Linden should partner with Google, too
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: Stop - I'm not going to talk about Google or any other external group that is roumored about
  • [13:40] Goldie Katsu: is hoping Zero gets to finish what he wanted to say initially including information on the AWG's role before I have to leave at 2SLT
  • [13:40] Gareth Ellison: yeah, let Zero finish off people
  • [13:40] Zigomar Abruzzo: is this a question period or what ? can't we just listen ?
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: Now - There is that industry group forming - it has no clear goals yet - they are still forming them
  • [13:40] Vicero Lambert: questions should be sent to a organizer to "organize a proper setting".
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: If you want to be part of that - go to that wiki and get involved
  • [13:41] JenzZa Misfit: GAH
  • [13:41] Basil Wijaya: I'll go
  • [13:41] Dale Innis: ooo a house!
  • [13:41] Basil Wijaya: Continue Zero
  • [13:41] Malburns Writer: Now what?
  • [13:41] Tillie Ariantho: It's that griefer LindsayWorth Voom again.
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: fie
  • [13:41] Tillie Ariantho: Can someone ban her, finally?
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: okay
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: Now AWG
  • [13:42] Basil Wijaya: Dont let griefers take your time
  • [13:42] Gareth Ellison: Zero: so, am i correct that the AWG is seperate from this new industry group?
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: My vie of the AWG has not changed - but I realize that it may not have been well communicated in the past
  • [13:42] Zigomar Abruzzo: shouts: stop questionning and listen !
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: So - I'mhere to try to clear it all up and get it on the right footing
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: The AWG is on the one hand a much less ambitious effort - and on the other - the biggest thign that could happen to SL
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: It is less ambitious in that it is tackling only one view of what an Internet wide metaverse
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: which is: Take SL and make it work with 60 million regions.... most run by non LL entities
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: On the other hand - it is a much more concrete objective than say other groups may be contempalating at this time
  • [13:45] Tao Takashi: Is this contemplating online? :)
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: Now - here's the way to think about this
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: I want the AWG to help LL get the current protocol set of SL into a form that can be opened up and interoperate with efforts like OpenSim and LibSL
  • [13:47] Gareth Ellison: Zero: is not interoperability much easier than scalability? why are both being treated as one project?
  • [13:47] Rob Adelaide: As an effort to improve this interoperation, will any of the sim sourcecode be released?
  • [13:47] Zero Linden: Tao - I've pointed you to the wiki of one group - it is as much online as they've said - and having been in the only two other meetings they had - believe me that is what they have right now
  • [13:47] Gareth Ellison: there are numerous ways to open up the current grid to opensim servers for example
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: Well - these terms interoperability and scalability are really way too wide to be useul and I've come to see
  • [13:48] Tao Takashi: ok, guess I missed that meeting, seeing it right now.. will try the next one then :)
  • [13:48] Tao Takashi: thx
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: that they are a source of much of the problems
  • [13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: because if interop people don't design for scalability, it won't be scalable, and vice versa.
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: Interoprability can mean a zillion things
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: I won't go into the possible meanings
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: instead I will tell you what it means for AWG
  • [13:49] Gareth Ellison: Morgaine: one can open up the current grid to opensim right now while still working constantly on scalability aspects, but let's argue that one later
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: It means making a second life that can have regions run outside of LL, with separate impelemntations
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: and it menas having agent domains that are run outside of LL, with separate implemetnations
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: That's it
  • [13:49] Rob Adelaide: for the less tech-savvy among us what is an agent domain - like an asset server?
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: While other kinds of interoperability may fall out for free -
  • [13:50] Gareth Ellison: Zero: does this mean questions of per-region scalability are moot points?
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: (Rob - read the wiki)
  • [13:50] Gareth Ellison: i.e how many clients per simulator etc
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: Gareth - yes, to a point
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: So - scalability
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: this can also mean way way too man y things
  • [13:50] Gareth Ellison: if one can have essentially infinite regions but a finite number of clients per region then would that be the goals of the AWG satisfied?
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: What it means with respect to AWG is
  • [13:51] Vicero Lambert: how many agents per sim really depend on server performance by bandwidth
  • [13:51] Tao Takashi: [3] is the wiki
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: The grid itself must scale to the number of agents, regions and on-line that I've outlined
  • [13:52] Gareth Ellison: that is an easy task
  • [13:52] Gareth Ellison: if per-region scalability is just an issue of hardware resources then i'd call it trivial
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: shouts: reading material: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group_Glossary#Agent
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: No, it doesn't mean that, because the protocols that underpin scalable third-party grids have to be able to scale to large regions, even if Linden's regions don't want to support that. We are working on protocols for a supergrid, not just LL's design choices, which are a subset.
  • [13:52] Gareth Ellison: it's just a matter of making each grid component load-balanceable and redundant
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: Now - there is one other aspect that relates to both interoperability and scaling that is where I think people are getting hung up
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: We want to be sure that the protocols are supportive of both alternative implementations and future extension
  • [13:53] Vicero Lambert: Each sim is powered by a single PC CPU core, either an Intel P4 or an AMD Opteron (more AMD 64-bit CPUs), running Debian Linux, though there may be multiple CPUs, cores, and sims per machine (1100 servers, ~2000 CPUs -2/22/06). There are no more than 4 sims per machine (2 dual-core CPUs per box).
  • [13:53] Gareth Ellison: so the protocol need not make a specific region size mandatory
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: But that will have to be within reason - where reason is defined as we are going to implement this in the next year
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Scalability of regions has nothing to do with hardware, it's a design issue.
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: So
  • [13:54] Tao Takashi: I think the protocol should make as few assumptions as possible in general
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: To attack the hard nut
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: I don't think that the protocols we are likely to develop in the next six months will support, say 20k agents in a single region
  • [13:54] Tao Takashi: in a certain scope of course
  • [13:55] Gareth Ellison: ok, so each region can be a simulator or group of simulators of arbitary size and the protocol does not care how many users that simulator supports
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: That is because supporting that requires a major new structure of protocol and I'm pretty sure we don't know what that is at this point
  • [13:55] Gareth Ellison: then put a nice scalable grid services backend on it and you're ready to rock
  • [13:55] Gareth Ellison: Zero: i'll ask you a question - is DNS scalable?
  • [13:55] Catherine Pfeffer: I read the wiki and did not get a clear view of what an agents domain was.
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: Right now, the protocols for handling agents could, perhaps handle 200 or so.... but beyond that we need some major new concepts of how to handle agents in a close space
  • [13:56] Gareth Ellison: i.e the number of .com domains we can get - is that on the same level as you want for the future of SL?
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: So - AWG isn't going to do that out of the starting gate
  • [13:56] Rhubarb Rabeni: sa
  • [13:57] Vicero Lambert: a dns can have multible zones. for example server1.zone1.lindenlab.com
  • [13:57] Gareth Ellison: Zero: DNS? good analogy in terms of raw numbers?
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: Lastly - while I did put in backend details in the slides for teh AWG - it got us too bogged down in them
  • [13:57] Morgaine Dinova: You can't put a scalable access mechanism like REST services onto the front of a non-scalable back end and call the whole thing scalable. It's only as scalable as the least scalable link in the chain.
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: Each group contemplating a back end should look out for their impelemtnation stragtegy
  • [13:59] Vicero Lambert: wounders why people are brining up google and IBM when this is reguarding to AWG?!?!?!?!?
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: and ensure that the protocol supports what they are planning
  • [13:59] Seg Baphomet: Seems to me, detaching asset download from the sims would be relatively low hanging fruit.
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: We have one backnd implemetnation design and will work to ensure that it works with that
  • [14:00] Vicero Lambert: lol
  • [14:00] Basil Wijaya: maybe mute
  • [14:00] Gareth Ellison: i'm going to have to go offline here - can someone stick the transcripts on the wiki and i'll be pestering you Zero later
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: Okay - now
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: as for AWG moving forward
  • [14:01] Gareth Ellison: perhaps i'll just idle actually..
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Not just works, but works and scales. That's the expressed motivation for the AWG after all.
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: While I think that it is good that people are thinking very forward about things like alternate ideas of geometry and
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: interesting constructions of assets
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: we aren't really here to wholesale resdesign SL
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: So - I'm going to ask that those conversations be placed in a different space
  • [14:02] Seg Baphomet: Don't fall prey to Second System effect. :)
  • [14:02] Tao Takashi: my point usually only was not to change evrything but to maybe enable different types of structures by inserting placeholder/version numbers if possible
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: but that those people, having those discussions keep abreast of the actual designs in the AWG
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: and chime in when you think we are closing a door that won't be re-openable in the future
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: when someone is actually ready to implement those forward ideas
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: Ownership of "that"? which that
  • [14:04] Basil Wijaya: heh
  • [14:04] Nite Zelmanov: I think that is a very good distinction. We aren't redesigning SL, but trying to get the current SL to the interop and scale goals that zero identified
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: I'm going to take ownership of triaging what is in and what is out of scope of the AWG
  • [14:04] JenzZa Misfit: eek
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: which I realize looks like a unilateral decision by, well, me
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: but - er - it is
  • [14:04] Zero Linden:  :-)
  • [14:04] Rex Cronon: isn't the protocol going to be open?
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: Open doesn't mean that everyone can add anything they want to it at any moment
  • [14:05] Rob Linden: the protocol is going to be open, just not designed by absolute consensu
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: Zero, in terms of allowing alternative implementations, at the protocol level. how do you avoid people who want to host alternatiev content from lfowing it over the prottocols?
  • [14:05] Tao Takashi: I wonder which project is build on absolute consensus anyway ;-)
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: Right - at this stage - our goal is to get to interoperable implementations of the SL grid
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: So - open, I want and need your input and your hard work - but we need to be able to limit scope
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: limit scope to actually getting stuff done
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: in the near term
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: So
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: with that
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: I will be doing some pretty serious wiki editing in the next week
  • [14:07] Vicero Lambert:  :)
  • [14:07] Tao Takashi: yay :)
  • [14:07] Rob Linden: as will I
  • [14:07] Tao Takashi: double yay! :)
  • [14:07] Liana Linden: me three
  • [14:07] Morgaine Dinova: If there are non-negociable, non-community elements, they should go on a non-wiki page. Locking pages on a wiki sets a very bad precedent for a community project.
  • [14:07] Vicero Lambert: awsome :) ty rob and zero
  • [14:07] Vicero Lambert: ty liana
  • [14:07] Tao Takashi: triple yay ;-)
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: I will be moving stuff that I think is out of scope or better elsewhere to elsewhere
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: That all said then -
  • [14:08] Rob Linden: Morgaine: the wiki is a tool
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: we are rather over time
  • [14:08] Finrod Meriman: do you plan to continue to monitor & revise wiki content
  • [14:08] Vicero Lambert: agrees
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: and I'm late for another public appearance
  • [14:08] Rob Adelaide: the wiki is cool! by everyones, thanks zero, rob
  • [14:08] Gareth Ellison: my plan to go offline failed......
  • [14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: a community tool, and a very good one
  • [14:08] Burhop Piccard: So.... what about adapting what is there to the more clear goals that you have provided today?
  • [14:08] Tao Takashi: you have too many public appearances ;-)
  • [14:08] Gareth Ellison: it's nice to see a more focused set of goals Zero
  • [14:08] Vicero Lambert: Seeya all gona head out need to get some lunch
  • [14:09] Zero Linden: Tao - I do
  • [14:09] Tao Takashi: send Philip ;-)
  • [14:09] Zero Linden: I put a moratorium on them for all of Dec. and Jan.!
  • [14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [14:09] Tao Takashi: but I guess he has, too ;-)
  • [14:09] Rob Linden: Burhop: yes, that's the plan
  • [14:10] Tao Takashi: will talk again about the SLGA next weekend at the barcamp in Berlin
  • [14:10] Zero Linden: okay then - later all
Personal tools