Project:Editing Discussion/Archive 01

Proposal: Explain how/ when to edit Wiki.secondlife.com URLs

Newbies don't know to edit a URL like http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Guidelines to reach a URL like http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/llParseString2List, by remembering how to spell llParseString2List, and not bothering over whether the first L is upper case like sometimes in wiki, or lowercase like always in LSL.

The advantage of editing the URL is that you skip the time it takes to navigate thru the index pages, any time you can accurately retype (or guess) a page name.

Maybe we should teach this skill to newbies here? Surely this is a skill that we editors often use?

-- Ppaatt Lynagh 08:43, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

Proposal: Description about how to create a new Wiki entry

A description about how to create a new Wiki entry should be added to section 'New page creation ' (I've no edit permission here, hence can't change myself). It took me at least 15 minutes search until I found the description at [1] (as I was a complete Wiki edit newbie when a came here; never edited a Wiki before).

Description could read like this (source: Mediawiki):

Using the URL

You can use the wiki's URL for creating a new page. The URL to an article of the wiki is something like this:

http://www.secondlife/wiki/Article

If you replace "Article" with the name of the page you wish to create, you will be taken to a blank page which indicates that no article of that name exists yet. Clicking the "edit" page tab at the top of the page will take you to the edit page for that article, where you can create the new page by typing your text, and clicking submit.

From the search page

If you search for a page that doesn't exist (using the search box and 'go' button on the left of the page) then you will be provided with a link to create the new page. (Note that this technique doesn't work if you use the 'search' button).

--Huney Jewell 03:42, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

For creating new articles, the technique I prefer is to write wiki markup to link to an article that does not exist. Then the wiki itself invites everyone to create that article, any time thereafter.

For example, an article that does not yet exist (and should never exist) is MissingWikiWord.

Get it?

Clicking thru how this wiki renders that markup presents you with much noise alongside the helpful invitation:

"You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button."

-- Ppaatt Lynagh 05:02, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

/me pokes people towards Special:Wantedpages

SignpostMarv Martin 06:31, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

Thanks for your contributions, but maybe you misunderstood what I intended. Meanwhile I found out how to add an entry (as to be seen I delivered the answer in my contribution above). I just propose, to add this information to this page in order to let other newbies find the answer easier and thus faster than I did in case they stumble into the same question.
--Huney Jewell 07:14, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

Does the "maybe you misunderstand" address Ppaatt or SignpostMarv?? If it's me, Ppaatt, then maybe I should answer? Here goes ...

I thought I understood your contribution. I think I appreciate you sharing your newbie pain, I definitely agree we should address it for the sake of future wiki newbies.

I think we may be disagreeing over how best to help future wiki newbies.

I like the idea of asking newbies to edit, rather than create.

I like the idea of asking newbies to volunteer to contribute Special:Wantedpages, rather than only answering the needs that newbies themselves discover.

I still also like of showing newbies how to create a new article. I think the techniques we should show are adding a link to a missing article, for example adding a link in the Special:Wantedpages, and then clicking thru that link to create the article.

I don't think we should teach other newbies to edit URLs.

Editing URLs steps outside the system, so we can never improve the system to help people, e.g., to point back to where the link came from; e.g., to ensure that the article is linked from somwhere. Editing URLs isn't significantly easier than adding a new link and then clicking thru.

Yes? No? Am I speaking more clearly now, or just annoying you, or were you talking to SignpostMarv and I interrupted?

Most curiously yours, thanks in advance,
-- Ppaatt Lynagh 08:17, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

My answer was dedicated to both contributions - Ppaatt & SignpostMarv - as you both explained some other method of creating a new entry, which might have been meant to give me hints how to manage that task whereas I already had found out the answer by nymyself. But maybe you only told the other methods to complete my proposal.

@Ppaatt: I disagree to conceal my proposed methods as IMHO at least the second (the one I prefer) seems to be easier and more understandable for newbies. I agree about giving a hint to not forget setting a link.

I'll try to explain that by giving an example: I wanted to add my entry 'Format Decimal'. This entry primarily hasn't a link anywhere except in Category list 'Example', to which it is added automatically by the respective LSLC template within 'Format Decimal' entry. And I'd even not prefer the method mentioned by SignpostMarv (adding a link to Special:Wantedpages), because I didnt only want it to be created by anyone else, instead add it immediately (that's what I then have done). May be I'm not a typical newbie, as I'm quite experienced in Computing, using the Web and even using Wiki from a reader's point of view. I wasn just not yet experienced in Wiki editing. But meanwhile I am (as you know from my hint on LSL Editing Primer, you asked me for the other day, Ppatt :-). And that was during the first few days I started working regularly here.

But I still wonder who will pick up this proposal and finally add the info to Editing Guidelines?

Hoping to have made things a bit clearer with many thanks for your attention and thoughts
--Huney Jewell 10:02, 14 September 2007 (PDT)

---

Deletions?

How does one propose a page for deletion? I stumbled on LSL Teacher which seemed to be a part-advertisement part-forum-thread type thing that shouldn't be here. In the meantime, I just blanked it. Celierra Darling 19:17, 10 February 2007 (PST)

Leave a message on User talk:Rob Linden.

However, if you read User talk:Rob Linden#Pseudo-Deletion Policy and User talk:SignpostMarv Martin#Thanks.21.2Fre: redirects, you'll notice that Linden Lab won't generally delete anything unless it creates a problem for them (see User talk:SignpostMarv Martin#LL:Second Life Terms of Service)- although I would imagine if the content violates the TOS/CS, then the page will likely be deleted.

In this case however, I think I've taken the most appropriate action; I've updated Template:visl to include an "LSL" parameter, which will list the user under LSL Mentors, and setup a redirect from LSL Teacher to the new category.

SignpostMarv Martin 20:40, 10 February 2007 (PST)

A redirect is the exact right way of handling the situation, since redirects are cheap and easy to do. -- Rob Linden 22:10, 11 February 2007 (PST)

LSL Teacher should not have been blanked or redirected without discussion on it either on that page or in the LSL Portal talk page. The page as it was origionally had content on it that was appropriate as it did list people who were available to teach LSL. A teacher is not the same as a Mentor, and yes they may charge for their services. There was one line on the origional page that should have been removed, as it was someone asking for help. Not everyone who would be listed on that list would have a wiki account or would even know about whatever your Template:visl is Thraxis Epsilon 16:07, 12 February 2007 (PST)

1. It was being used as a talk page.
2. It was being used as a billboard.

Articles are not talk pages, and content specific to a Resident should be listed in their own page. (see Resident's own pages in Resident's own user-spaces for the basic gist of my opinion on the matter)

1. There is nothing preventing Residents from creating their SL Wiki account- all they need to do is log in.
2. Inclusion of the LSL Mentors category in Template:visl is only a short term measure
3. Categories are easier to maintain than lists.
4. Help talk:Getting_started_with_LSL would be the best place to ask for help that isn't direct to a particular person.

Any further questions ?

SignpostMarv Martin 18:20, 12 February 2007 (PST)

sysop lock

Any chance the sysop lock on the article could temporarily be lifted, or have a sysadmin add the trailing "]" to the link in Editing Guidelines#Templates ?
SignpostMarv Martin 20:48, 10 February 2007 (PST)

Proposal: Sanctity of User: pages.

No one other then the owner a specific User: namespace, or a Wiki Admin ( a page listing those with said rights should be available), should edit any page in another users namespace other then a Talk page. Thraxis Epsilon 00:52, 20 February 2007 (PST)

I'm assuming this is a roundabout way of having me told off, since anyone familiar with Wikis already knows this.

So.... should we be prevented from adding Template:visl and Template:llEmployee to the appropriate user-pages ?

SignpostMarv Martin 07:06, 20 February 2007 (PST)

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: As you do not know why a user did not make use of said templates, you should not take it upon yourself to alter their pages to use said templates. If they have not added themselves to the Categories, they may not have wished to be listed there. If they did add themselves to the Categories, but did not feel the need to use said templates... it is not my place, nor yours, to second guess their decision and change their page.

What is troubling is that you make very clear in your response that you are well aware that this shouldn't be done, yet you have repeatedly taken it upon yourself to do this very thing. Since it has now been shown, by your actions, that this is an allowed behaviour, and as it is not explicitly noted in the Editing Guidlines as something that should not be done, it has become necessary to suggest it as a proposal, to prevent possible future abuse. Thraxis Epsilon 09:54, 20 February 2007 (PST)

1. Volunteers & Lindens are starting to add the templates themselves now, so the addition of the templates has paid off and I won't be doing it unless asked (Hamlet has asked me to do his user page since he's too busy to log in and do it himself).
2. I've not been adding any language template to people's pages when I know they speak a language, as it's up to them whether they want to attract the attention of the relevant international community.
3. See Resident's own pages in Resident's own user-spaces for the reason behind all previous user-space editing.
4. Yes I'm aware it looks rather suspect. Since all work has been completed on that matter, there's no need for me to be doing it any more, and I apologise for not making this clear.

Aside from me coming of as an asshole about it (although some people have followed through with the principal on their own), what're your thoughts on the Resident's own pages in Resident's own user-spaces becoming an editing guideline ? It's more centered around the idea of keeping articles under development in personal sandboxes instead of the main article-space, giving a visual and psychological queue that the article is "under construction".

• It's a case of [[Marv's To-Do list]] vs User:SignpostMarv Martin/To-Do

SignpostMarv Martin 10:11, 20 February 2007 (PST)

Use of templates

The use of templates seems reasonable to me. Nice to have a list of templates availabe, that can be used. Can anybody please post a short page on how to use them?

Thank you Cynthia Centaur

Languages

I want to add a pointer to Project:Languages from Project:Editing Guidelines. E.g.:

Use English as primary language.  See Project:Languages for use of other languages and translation.