User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2011-01-31

Transcript

Gez Linden on XMPP Group Chat

At the end of the Office Hour, Gez talked about XMPP

Transcript

[07:01]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey Oz
[07:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	just returned after a week vacation, anything groundshaking happen lately?
[07:01]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Autobuild released to OS devs
[07:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	besides the rather light version of the quarterly echonomic overview
[07:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	have it set spin rate according to commits per day ? ;)
[07:03]	Oz Linden:	Got the rotation script I wanted for this!
[07:04]	Twisted Laws:	:)
[07:04]	Twisted Laws:	hellos
[07:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	hey twisted
[07:04]	Twisted Laws:	btw, those patches..... weren't on your lists for things to include in future sprints. I figured I'd put them out there and if people were to want to use them (i didn't vote on the jiras) then they'd push you to have them included. I'm not opposed to posting to bitbucket but i'm not trying to force these things in and break your schedules.
[07:05]	Oz Linden:	That's great, Twisted
[07:05]	Oz Linden:	We're going to put together the list for the next sprint tomorrow, so now is the perfect time to be making suggestions
[07:06]	Twisted Laws:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17050 has given v2 a bad name tho
[07:06]	Office Orb:	[#VWR-17050] SL-viewer 2.0 No nearby people when over approxiamately 1000 meters
[07:06]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	ok going to take me a while to get fully loged back in
[07:06]	Twisted Laws:	as it affects things other than just the nearby tab... it also affects nearby speakers and abuse lists
[07:07]	Twisted Laws:	the patch corrects them too (i never searched for jira's for them tho)
[07:07]	Oz Linden:	yes, that's bothered me for a long time - a number of the Linden meeting spaces are up high and Nearby doesn't work in them
[07:07]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	im partialy here till in about 15 min then will be here properly
[07:07]	lonetorus Habilis:	have yo all seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MInIyHH0mU  ?
[07:07]	lonetorus Habilis:	you
[07:08]	Oz Linden:	I've got some minor comments about how it's coded, but it's certainly something I'd like fixed
[07:08]	Oz Linden:	I have, but let's leave that to the last item on our agenda....
[07:08]	Twisted Laws:	i have no problem with some one rewriting any of my code :p
[07:08]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	getting shit loads of 499 errors :/
[07:08]	Oz Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Oz_Linden/Office_Hours_Topics
[07:09]	Oz Linden:	(save a log, Wolfpup - I'd like to see those)
[07:09]	Oz Linden:	First item on the agenda is: Autobuild - ready to merge?
[07:09]	Oz Linden:	Wolfpup send mail on this.. thank you....
[07:10]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	no it is not there a lot of things that i put in an email over the weekend
[07:10]	Oz Linden:	the only item on that list that's really new and autobuild specific is the issue of how to add in Fmod, I think
[07:10]	Jonathan Yap:	Oz, it fails on Express
[07:10]	Jonathan Yap:	That is, it cannot find the compiler
[07:10]	Twisted Laws:	some of us only use express :p
[07:11]	Jonathan Yap:	I would put that as a showstopper
[07:11]	Oz Linden:	Agreed
[07:11]	Oz Linden:	I thought we had a workaround for that? No?
[07:11]	Jonathan Yap:	I haven't heard of one
[07:11]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	the first and more importan thing is that it will break a lot of thing that have been doing to help OS devs be able to build the viewer on their own system no matter
[07:11]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	what version of VS they useing on windows
[07:12]	Oz Linden:	Let's deal with these one at a time...
[07:12]	Oz Linden:	Quicktime: I believe that there is a prebuilt qt you can use ... if not, there will be in a day or so - the repo is up
[07:12]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	well being able to build wheiter useing express or not is the most importany
[07:13]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i saw the QT repo
[07:13]	Oz Linden:	Fmod: someone is working on writing up new instructions / process for how to download from Fmod and get it installed (this is a blocker until done)
[07:13]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	for some reason the auto build seems to be finding my QT sdk and useing it
[07:14]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes Fmod is a defant blocker
[07:14]	Oz Linden:	that is, it is using an installed QT rather than the prebuild?
[07:14]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there is no sound on windows other wise
[07:14]	Twisted Laws:	i'm sorry i've not tried the autobuild yet :( (because of the express thing)
[07:14]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	it seemed to be on my system
[07:15]	Oz Linden:	Ok, so VS Express is a serious problem... but I suspect we'll need help getting that solved, because I don't know if we've got it on any systems
[07:15]	WolfPup Lowenhar	< found sources for VS pro versions so using them
[07:15]	Twisted Laws:	i'll just wait till 2010
[07:15]	Jonathan Yap:	Oz, can you borrow a "blank" pc from the IT department to do some testing on?
[07:16]	Oz Linden:	I'm willing to live with even a fairly awkward hack for VS '05 support for now, since we're moving to '10 ASAP ....
[07:16]	Twisted Laws:	i'm a coder, all this environment stuff is a pain to me, lol
[07:16]	Oz Linden:	Necissary evil, though
[07:16]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Jonathan and robin would be able to realy help you there as they had done a lot during snowglobe to get it to where it would build on VS 05 or 08 express or other wise
[07:16]	Twisted Laws:	yes
[07:16]	Jonathan Yap:	There is always going to be the issue of finding the compiler, unless 2010 Express has a different name
[07:17]	Oz Linden:	let's focus on '05 Express
[07:17]	Twisted Laws:	robin was my hero as robin came up with the stuff that let 2005 express work
[07:17]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes once you get the 05 express going then it will be easy to add 08 and 10
[07:17]	Oz Linden:	Do you think you can coordinate an effort to at least spell out what the problem is and some possible approaches, Jonathan?
[07:18]	Oz Linden:	I'm sure we can get Robin to help
[07:18]	Jonathan Yap:	Yes, it is really trivial--the Express compiler name is different than the non-express, so some test has to be put in for it
[07:18]	Oz Linden:	Are you fluent enough in Python to do that?
[07:19]	Jonathan Yap:	I've never used python
[07:19]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i would sugets checking the registery like develop.py dose now that would bethe easiest
[07:19]	Jonathan Yap:	I was hoping to hear back from someone in the SF office who was monitoring the os dev list
[07:20]	Oz Linden:	Ah... so.... since anyone can see that I'm no expert yet... do we have a volunteer to take a stab at a patch for finding VSExpress in autobuild?
[07:20]	Oz Linden:	If not, I'll try....
[07:20]	lones bucket	chair whispers: touch me to change position to one of 2
[07:21]	TankMaster Teichmann:	sometimes the express edition doesnt put all the correct info in the registory (expectually 2005)
[07:21]	Oz Linden:	I'm meeting with the project leader of that team later today
[07:21]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Jonathan try moving the check for express environment from the develop.py in to that atuobuild scripts
[07:21]	TonyaSouther Resident:	You should learn Python, Oz. It'll show you how crappy C++ is as an object-oriented language. :3
[07:21]	Twisted Laws:	i think the issue here is a program that just doesn't exist in express
[07:21]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	develop finds the right item now
[07:22]	Twisted Laws:	u'll have to forgive me, i'm old and i don't remember well sometimes, but one of the messages on sldev mentioned what it was
[07:22]	Jonathan Yap:	Express won't find the msvc* files, if that is what you are referring to Tankmaster. I have to supply their path manually
[07:22]	Oz Linden:	I'm having trouble getting past my revulsion at the use of leading whitespace as semantically significant
[07:22]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I thought you'd like it since it recommends spaces over tabs...
[07:23]	TankMaster Teichmann:	no i mean sometimes pythong wont fide it bedase the registry settings are missing
[07:23]	TonyaSouther Resident:	It's just formalizing something you should be doing anyway.
[07:23]	Oz Linden:	Jonathan ... can you please write me an email (or one to the list) that spells out what you think all the issues with using autobuild & VS '05 Express are?
[07:23]	Oz Linden:	don't worry about other versions yet
[07:23]	Cummere Mayo:	ao off
[07:24]	Jonathan Yap:	err, I did write all this to the list--can you can back over those messages under that subject?
[07:24]	Oz Linden:	send it to the list - anyone who knows of other issues, please reply to that so that we get them all
[07:24]	TankMaster Teichmann:	oh, where do i sign up for the dev list?
[07:24]	Cummere Mayo:	i have the feeling i may be getting asked to put together another meta issue?
[07:24]	Jonathan Yap:	https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev
[07:25]	Cummere Mayo:	tank there should be a subscribe linke at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
[07:25]	TankMaster Teichmann:	thx
[07:25]	Cummere Mayo:	the one jonathan posted works too
[07:25]	Oz Linden:	I don't see a message about Express compatibilty - can you find it in the archive please?
[07:26]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Oz what team is handeling the setting up of Autobuild and do thay have something on Jira system
[07:27]	Oz Linden:	Nice transition to the next agenda item, Wolfpup
[07:27]	Oz Linden:	I'm considering setting up a separate jira 'project' for open dev tools & process issues....
[07:27]	Jonathan Yap:	https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2011-January/005635.html
[07:28]	Oz Linden:	anything to do with building, makefiles, the codereview site, tools like autobuild, the (future) build farm...
[07:28]	Jonathan Yap:	Oz, you might want to re-read that whole message thread
[07:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that sounds good to me Oz it is a same we have not had some thing like this befor
[07:29]	Oz Linden:	Get all of those issues out of VWR so that VWR is just about using the viewer
[07:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yep
[07:30]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	and mabey could have it so that some of the OS devs have full write acess in it as well
[07:30]	Oz Linden:	I expect to make a final decision about it today (giving people a bit longer to object, but I'm not hearing any yet)
[07:30]	Cummere Mayo:	i dont see why they would object
[07:30]	Oz Linden:	It will be a pretty open project :-)
[07:31]	Oz Linden:	I don't either, but one must leave the opportunity....
[07:31]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	and mabey it should have its own repository that is a LL repository to be able to work out the bugs with
[07:32]	Cummere Mayo:	I just would like to see it not be hidden or otherwise set up oddly so that that its not a pain in the butt to do some things (such as clone issues or whatever) like a couple of the projects :-/
[07:32]	Oz Linden:	well, each tool already has a repo...
[07:32]	Twisted Laws:	i must confess i rarely look at the jira until when i search to see if theres a place to put a patch to fix a problem i found
[07:32]	Oz Linden:	in fact, the way I'll deal with the VS express issue is that I'll fork the autobuild repo to make a test version
[07:33]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	and that issue would be perfect for dealing with in an OS dev Env jira issue
[07:33]	Oz Linden:	No, this will use a combination of the VWR and STORM configurations... and probably be more open than either
[07:34]	Cummere Mayo:	speaking of storm jiras why is storm not set up to allow cloneing?
[07:34]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	could use the ODE- for the prefix on those
[07:34]	Oz Linden:	To answer your other question, Wolfpup... the group that did autobuild is called "Team Chopper" (another arbitrary and essentially meaningless name, like Snowstorm)
[07:35]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Storm is cloneable but only by lindens cummere
[07:35]	Oz Linden:	I'm meeting with the team lead later today, and will invite her to start coming to some of these meetings
[07:35]	Jonathan Yap:	wolfpup, I can see it now: ODE-1 "I can only write bad poetry"
[07:35]	TankMaster Teichmann:	:)
[07:35]	Oz Linden:	I was thinking 'OPEN-'
[07:35]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that one works better Oz
[07:36]	Cummere Mayo:	bad idea oz people will see that and think thats another misc type project
[07:36]	Cummere Mayo:	open topic project
[07:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	maybe OSDE- then
[07:36]	Oz Linden:	I think I can cope with that in the text, and I'm not shy about closing or deleting improperly filed issues
[07:36]	Cummere Mayo:	cept for the e thats what i was gonna suggest wolfpup
[07:37]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Oz, on JIRA opening: can we have folks who post patches in reply to JIRAs to viewer-development make sure the JIRAs are open? I went to add the patches for SH-659 and SH-730 to Firestorm, and had to get someone to grep the viewer-development histor yto get the changeset IDs so I could grab the patches.
[07:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	well OSDE would stand for Open Source Development Environment
[07:38]	Cummere Mayo:	yeah i like that wolfpup
[07:38]	Cummere Mayo:	+1
[07:38]	Oz Linden:	let's come back to that Tonya
[07:38]	TonyaSouther Resident:	okkay.
[07:38]	Oz Linden:	Next agenda item - other issue suggestions for Sprint 11
[07:38]	Cummere Mayo:	Please see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24593
[07:38]	Office Orb:	[#VWR-24593] No upload from filepath including national characters like æ, ø and å
[07:39]	Cummere Mayo:	can we get that fixed?
[07:39]	WolfPup Lowenhar	is still waiting on sugestion for Storm-236
[07:39]	Office Orb:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-236 [#STORM-236] Allow the "Speak" button to be removed, like other buttons
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	Yes, I saw that one this morning... like it
[07:39]	Twisted Laws:	VWR-17050
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	I'll get you those today for sure, Wolfpup... my bad
[07:39]	TonyaSouther Resident:	We've got a patch in Firestorm to remove the speak button, and auto-remove it when voice chat is disabled.
[07:40]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	well i will be @ RL work later today so email it
[07:40]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Think it's Kitty Barnett's work.
[07:40]	Gez Linden:	re: STORM-236, if you remove the button, would it also disable voice?
[07:40]	Oz Linden:	Yes, 17050 would be very good
[07:40]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes it dose Gez
[07:40]	Gez Linden:	ty for clarifying wolfpup
[07:40]	Cummere Mayo:	yep gez. its gonna make things much nicer for those that dont/cant use voice
[07:40]	Oz Linden:	that's what 236 is, and we've got a nearly done contribution from Wolfpup that does it
[07:40]	TonyaSouther Resident:	...or, yeah, code review.
[07:41]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Yeaeh, Oz, that's a good one.
[07:41]	Oz Linden:	just needs a little tweaking, which I owe him a final list for
[07:42]	Oz Linden:	Any others... I'm making a list and checking it twice....
[07:42]	Twisted Laws:	what happend with storm-643, the map
[07:42]	Office Orb:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-643 [#STORM-643] Embed Minimap into the Nearby list of the People Sidebar
[07:42]	Oz Linden:	that's approved and will be pulled in today
[07:43]	TankMaster Teichmann:	nice
[07:43]	Cummere Mayo:	thats surprisingly nice
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	I didn't get to doing the merge last week
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	I love it
[07:43]	Twisted Laws:	cool... after a lot of looking, there is redundent code that can be removed from llfloatermap
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	let's deal with that separately...
[07:43]	Twisted Laws:	yes
[07:44]	Cummere Mayo:	im trying to remember the two issues i bumped over the weekend that i wanted to bring up this morning *mutters*
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	ok ... if you think of other issues, send to the list
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	I'll be reviewing the list , my chat logs, and my own mailbox later today
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	to come up with my candidates
[07:45]	Twisted Laws:	in the case of 643, it would be nice if an xml expert could possibly adjust that map and its size
[07:45]	Oz Linden:	sorry... which was that?
[07:46]	Twisted Laws:	storm-643
[07:46]	Gez Linden:	minimap in sidebar
[07:46]	Oz Linden:	I think it's fine as is
[07:46]	Twisted Laws:	ok
[07:46]	Cummere Mayo:	it looks odd on widescreens but you get used to it
[07:47]	Oz Linden:	not running that viewer now....
[07:48]	Twisted Laws:	i have or can have patches for much of the other things listed in STORM-642 if anything is of special interest
[07:48]	Office Orb:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-642 [#STORM-642] Enhance the Nearby list to make it a full-fledged radar replacement
[07:48]	Oz Linden:	ok... like I said... send to the list asap.... next item: Tonya had a request about issues? didn't quite understand the problem....
[07:48]	Cummere Mayo:	oh ive been asked if we could possibly work on the viewer side of VWR-21777
[07:48]	Office Orb:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21777 [#VWR-21777] Images in landmarks/search/classifieds displaying using many different aspect ratios
[07:49]	Cummere Mayo:	meh sorry i put that in just as oz said send to list... ><
[07:49]	TonyaSouther Resident:	I needed to get the patches for SH-659 and SH-730, but those JIRAs are set to closed access.
[07:49]	TonyaSouther Resident:	That meant I had to get someone to grep the viewer-development repository history.
[07:50]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Can we ask the folks who commit patches to viewer-development from the SL JIRA to make sure the JIRA entries are open?
[07:51]	Cummere Mayo:	most of sh- is closed access tonya
[07:51]	Oz Linden:	I can ask... I can't promise anything.
[07:51]	Oz Linden:	Grepping the logs is not hard...
[07:51]	TonyaSouther Resident:	It is of you don't *have* them.
[07:51]	Jonathan Yap:	Tonya, it is easy enough to set up a code tree on your computer if you have the space
[07:51]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	if you're ona unix-y platform, look at the pager extension for hg - it makes "grepping the history" a matter of 2 keypresses.
[07:52]	Cummere Mayo:	I dont understand why so many projects in the jira are still hidden access :-/
[07:52]	TonyaSouther Resident:	All right, Thickbrick...and I'll probably suck down viewer-development, whee, but was on a tight time schedule when I needed to do it.
[07:52]	Oz Linden:	There is an incredibly useful tool , by the way, that Q wrote....
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	'findjiras' searches any stream for jira references, and displayes them with all their ids (for moved issues) in a few different formats....
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	you can check it out from https://bitbucket.org/kent_quirk/findjiras
[07:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	cool
[07:54]	Oz Linden:	I use it several times a day....
[07:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I think Aleric pasted to IRC a giant bash one liner that does that...
[07:54]	TankMaster Teichmann:	i get "the page you seem to be looking for is missing" on that link
[07:55]	Oz Linden:	Gez wants to say a word or two about group chat.... listen up
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	Just wanted to mention that I am the product owner for the team working on migrating group chat to XMPP. We're pushing to have the project viewer out soon, and would like to work with you all to start making the switch in TPVs
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	I'm also going to be putting together a user group to help me better define/refine the requirements, and make sure we are supporting current use cases around group chat functionality.
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	If you have recommendations for chat moderators or other people I should talk to, please let me know (yourself included).
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	We're starting with functional parity as the goal (or as close as we can get), but I'd also like to discuss more about the places we can go with chat as well.
[07:56]	TankMaster Teichmann:	when do you think TPVs will be able to start importing the new chat?
[07:56]	Jonathan Yap:	I tried to compile the xmpp based viewer this weekend and it failed, some module was not present.
[07:56]	Cummere Mayo:	is this meeting only for tvps? or?
[07:56]	Gez Linden:	jonathan, can you let me know which module failed?
[07:56]	Jonathan Yap:	yes, I will look it up
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	It's the xmpp client library
[07:57]	TankMaster Teichmann:	yeah, i think the xmpp modual is still internal
[07:57]	Oz Linden:	they have not published an external prebuild for it yet
[07:57]	Gez Linden:	and lord noob, as jonathan mentions, the code is out there now. I think we'd like to start in the next couple of weeks with our test on aditi
[07:57]	Gez Linden:	alright, I'll ping the team about it today
[07:57]	Cummere Mayo	wants to see a working userban feature in group chats that doesnt require the user to have ever been in the group
[07:58]	Gez Linden:	per the meeting being only for tpvs, didn't mean to imply that.
[07:58]	Jonathan Yap:	oops, I deleted that code tree as it failed to compile, so you will have to rely upon the previous comments about what is missing
[07:58]	Gez Linden:	but we need everyone's help to get xmpp adoption to be smooth and complete
[07:59]	TankMaster Teichmann:	we havent started on it because we have yet to be able to compile it
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	otherwise, the move from legacy to xmpp will be challenging ;)
[07:59]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Gez, any guess as to a timeframe?
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	totally understand LN.
[07:59]	TankMaster Teichmann:	:)
[07:59]	Twisted Laws:	that going to stop all the v1 based viewers?
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	no
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	tonya, our sprint this week is based on getting the project viewer complete. We'll push the code as soon as we can.
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	For some amount of time, the legacy group chat system will be bridged to the new one
[08:00]	TonyaSouther Resident:	All right, but I mean in terms of having it availalbe on the main grid.
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[08:00]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Put another way, when do we need to have it done by so people can take advantage of it?
[08:00]	Jonathan Yap:	Gez, would someone from your team post a message to the osdev mailing list when it is ready?
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	definitely jonathan
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	and tonya, we're still working on the transition plan.
[08:01]	Cummere Mayo:	Gez im assuming there is going to be heavy testing and feedback and at least some agreement from community and tvp devs that the system works good enough before this thing goes live? (pppllleeease?)
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	lightly speaking: we're going to start with this on aditi
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	we have a cluster up right now
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	we're going to be working with you all and tpvs to test it heavily
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	and I need some heavy chat users to tell me what I'm missing
[08:01]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, which part of the work have you been involved in doing?
[08:01]	TonyaSouther Resident:	The problems with the current group chat only show up when there are heavy loads...
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	That's going to be one of the testing challenges for this....
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	latif, it was a team that reported to me at first. I've recently stepped in as the product owner.
[08:02]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Testing on aditi , while valuable and necessary, may not produce the kind of conditions that give current group chat fits.
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	tonya, we're working on a bot to help test.
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	after we finish on aditi
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	I'd like a cluster on agni
[08:02]	Twisted Laws:	just put AWGroupies on it by themselved, they'll overload it
[08:02]	Cummere Mayo:	Gez if you can get with me later i have some suggestions on who to talk to
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	great cummere :)
[08:03]	Cummere Mayo:	people that run large active groups
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	so over the next couple of weeks, I intend to do the following
[08:03]	WolfPup Lowenhar	rembers finding some one in AWG the has a spam bot system that might help with loading the chat sytem for groups
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	1. get the team to get the project viewer out to you
[08:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, I still see that there is no xmpp_server in the login respinse on Aditi. Would someone from your team have a couple of moments to make a wiki page with at least an overview how the new system is supposed to work.
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	2. explain the transition strategy we have in mind
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	3. get my team to work with you on the code/how the system works
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	4. start up a user group to make sure we're testing this/supporting group chat needs appropriately
[08:04]	WolfPup Lowenhar	would have to look through his logs form when he was testion the current chat log code
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	latif, we can do that after we get the project viewer up.
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	I want to get the code out there for you all ASAP
[08:04]	Cummere Mayo	still hates the name user group. really thinks it should be discussion group or intrest group ... *mutters*
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah FJ said something about the project viewer by the end of January
[08:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford	looks at his calendar.
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	I'm interested in implementing this new chat protocol for non-Linden derived viewers, so any documentation would be extremely helpful
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	January 35th maybe?
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	even a high lever overview how is it supposed to work
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	:-)
[08:05]	Gez Linden:	k
[08:06]	TankMaster Teichmann:	lol oz
[08:06]	Gez Linden	appreciates oz extending january for him
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez are you using XEP0045 for group chat?
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	ie. standard xmpp multi user chat specification
[08:07]	Gez Linden:	latif, I'm not 100% sure. I just recently jumped on the team. I will follow up with my devs, but it is my expectation that the answer is yes.
[08:07]	Oz Linden:	When we get a design overview together, we'll include some spec references
[08:07]	Latif Khalifa:	it would be really great if we had some forum where those devs could answer a question or two :)
[08:08]	Cummere Mayo:	hint gez mailing list! lol
[08:08]	Gez Linden:	osdev?
[08:08]	Cummere Mayo:	actually you might consider a group oriented one
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	osdev is fine
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	we don't need multiple lists
[08:08]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah agreed
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	I'll make sure the devs are there
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	afaik, they are
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	i will also test stuff like if i can chat with groups i'm not supposed to, etc. ;)
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	ossm
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	thanks for the soapbox ;)
[08:09]	Oz Linden:	Guys.... just so you know... Gez is one of the stronger supporters of Open Development in LL
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	cool
[08:09]	Jonathan Yap:	Thanks for popping in Gez
[08:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	:-)
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	surely
[08:10]	TankMaster Teichmann:	:)
[08:10]	Twisted Laws:	:)
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	thank you for the info Gez
[08:10]	Gez Linden:	no prob. Was hoping to give you all something shiny to play with today
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	Thank you all for coming... see some of you at the scrum standup
[08:10]	TankMaster Teichmann:	thx for your time oz, gez
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	hmm, still no xmpp_server in login response from aditi... i guess it's not ready there yet :)
[08:11]	Jonathan Yap:	Gez, what regions are xmpp enabled on aditi?
[08:11]	Gez Linden:	jonathan, its not by region
[08:11]	Gez Linden:	its actually a service that lives outside of the sim altogether
[08:11]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	we want to move the chat completely out of the sim
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	reduce traffic and all that jazz
[08:12]	TankMaster Teichmann:	which is good
[08:12]	Twisted Laws:	yeah!
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	so, there's a cluster up there
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, I doubt it wold be benefital to remove local chat from sim...
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	sorry
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	to be specific
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	(scripts often need to be alerted).
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	at the moment, this is only group chat
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	IM/Group IM sure
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	I have some ideas for things that we can do with xmpp chat
[08:12]	Jonathan Yap:	so what happens if we sign in to agni using that test viewer? The chat still goes through test test cluster - does what grid we are on matter?
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	but this won't touch local for now
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	technically jonathan
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	afaik, with the viewer we're building
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	it will still touch the aditi chat cluster
[08:13]	Latif Khalifa:	I can se regular 1-1 IM going xmpp route too. Would save a lot of hassle for the presence to figure out where to send it :)
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	and it doesn't interface with legacy
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	right now, I just want to prove that xmpp works. Transition is next
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	but I want to load test, make sure I have all of the functionality
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	look for edge cases
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	make sure people can't snoop
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	etc
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, i'm curious what the client has to do. login to xmpp server and join group chats that are xmpp rooms (say named with the group uuid?)
[08:15]	Gez Linden:	and latif, I agree... but we wanted to start with one system. IM is tied into other functions
[08:15]	Gez Linden:	yep
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	sounds logical
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	did you have to mod ejabberd much?
[08:16]	Latif Khalifa:	to do some sort of ACL?
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	there were 'some' mods.
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	mostly mapping our current group roles to ejabberd roles
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	and making sure our auth worked
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	but afaik, its still set up for us to get updates as necessary. It doesn't diverge too much
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	i've managed to login to the aditi cluster using mu regular sl credentials with Psu client
[08:17]	Gez Linden	nods.
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	that's the expectation
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	i was wondering if I could join the group chat if I knew group UUID ;)
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	don't need the UUID
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	group name?
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	its something like
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	AW-Groupies@conference.aditi.lindenlab.com
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	I think
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	er... .secondlife.com
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	sorry
[08:18]	Boroondas Gupte:	cool
[08:18]	TonyaSouther Resident:	ooh, nice.
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	feel free to try it out
[08:18]	Latif Khalifa:	so the client only need know group name?
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	atm, yes.
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	but I believe we create the channels currently
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	so we avoid room camping
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	I have some ideas for where we can go with it
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	and how we can open up new features like chat rooms
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	Corrected url for 'findjiras' tool repo: https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/findjiras
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	but for now, I'd like to just make sure group chat works ;)
[08:19]	TonyaSouther Resident:	thanks, Oz.
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	speaking of... I need to close up my machine and walk over to the office... get my team rolling so we can get you all some code
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, many people are fond of current behaviour where you can be basically in all group chats without having windows open...
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	for support groups, etc.
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	Thanks for coming, Gez
[08:19]	Jonathan Yap:	You can still moderate/mute group chat?
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	no prob oz.
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	ok, thanks for your time Gez :)
[08:20]	TankMaster Teichmann:	thankyou for the effert you are putting in to get this working, gez
[08:20]	TonyaSouther Resident:	thanks, Gez.
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	latif, I'd like to get a better sense of what you were suggesting above
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	lets sync up later.
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	ok
[08:20]	Jonathan Yap:	Now we know who to send email to :)
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	indeed ;)
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	ttfn

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Transcript

[07:55]	Oz Linden:	Gez wants to say a word or two about group chat.... listen up
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	Just wanted to mention that I am the product owner for the team working on migrating group chat to XMPP. We're pushing to have the project viewer out soon, and would like to work with you all to start making the switch in TPVs
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	I'm also going to be putting together a user group to help me better define/refine the requirements, and make sure we are supporting current use cases around group chat functionality.
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	If you have recommendations for chat moderators or other people I should talk to, please let me know (yourself included).
[07:55]	Gez Linden:	We're starting with functional parity as the goal (or as close as we can get), but I'd also like to discuss more about the places we can go with chat as well.
[07:56]	TankMaster Teichmann:	when do you think TPVs will be able to start importing the new chat?
[07:56]	Jonathan Yap:	I tried to compile the xmpp based viewer this weekend and it failed, some module was not present.
[07:56]	Cummere Mayo:	is this meeting only for tvps? or?
[07:56]	Gez Linden:	jonathan, can you let me know which module failed?
[07:56]	Jonathan Yap:	yes, I will look it up
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	It's the xmpp client library
[07:57]	TankMaster Teichmann:	yeah, i think the xmpp modual is still internal
[07:57]	Oz Linden:	they have not published an external prebuild for it yet
[07:57]	Gez Linden:	and lord noob, as jonathan mentions, the code is out there now. I think we'd like to start in the next couple of weeks with our test on aditi
[07:57]	Gez Linden:	alright, I'll ping the team about it today
[07:57]	Cummere Mayo	wants to see a working userban feature in group chats that doesnt require the user to have ever been in the group
[07:58]	Gez Linden:	per the meeting being only for tpvs, didn't mean to imply that.
[07:58]	Jonathan Yap:	oops, I deleted that code tree as it failed to compile, so you will have to rely upon the previous comments about what is missing
[07:58]	Gez Linden:	but we need everyone's help to get xmpp adoption to be smooth and complete
[07:59]	TankMaster Teichmann:	we havent started on it because we have yet to be able to compile it
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	otherwise, the move from legacy to xmpp will be challenging ;)
[07:59]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Gez, any guess as to a timeframe?
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	totally understand LN.
[07:59]	TankMaster Teichmann:	:)
[07:59]	Twisted Laws:	that going to stop all the v1 based viewers?
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	no
[07:59]	Gez Linden:	tonya, our sprint this week is based on getting the project viewer complete. We'll push the code as soon as we can.
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	For some amount of time, the legacy group chat system will be bridged to the new one
[08:00]	TonyaSouther Resident:	All right, but I mean in terms of having it availalbe on the main grid.
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[08:00]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Put another way, when do we need to have it done by so people can take advantage of it?
[08:00]	Jonathan Yap:	Gez, would someone from your team post a message to the osdev mailing list when it is ready?
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	definitely jonathan
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	and tonya, we're still working on the transition plan.
[08:01]	Cummere Mayo:	Gez im assuming there is going to be heavy testing and feedback and at least some agreement from community and tvp devs that the system works good enough before this thing goes live? (pppllleeease?)
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	lightly speaking: we're going to start with this on aditi
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	we have a cluster up right now
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	we're going to be working with you all and tpvs to test it heavily
[08:01]	Gez Linden:	and I need some heavy chat users to tell me what I'm missing
[08:01]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, which part of the work have you been involved in doing?
[08:01]	TonyaSouther Resident:	The problems with the current group chat only show up when there are heavy loads...
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	That's going to be one of the testing challenges for this....
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	latif, it was a team that reported to me at first. I've recently stepped in as the product owner.
[08:02]	TonyaSouther Resident:	Testing on aditi , while valuable and necessary, may not produce the kind of conditions that give current group chat fits.
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	tonya, we're working on a bot to help test.
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	after we finish on aditi
[08:02]	Gez Linden:	I'd like a cluster on agni
[08:02]	Twisted Laws:	just put AWGroupies on it by themselved, they'll overload it
[08:02]	Cummere Mayo:	Gez if you can get with me later i have some suggestions on who to talk to
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	great cummere :)
[08:03]	Cummere Mayo:	people that run large active groups
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	so over the next couple of weeks, I intend to do the following
[08:03]	WolfPup Lowenhar	rembers finding some one in AWG the has a spam bot system that might help with loading the chat sytem for groups
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	1. get the team to get the project viewer out to you
[08:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, I still see that there is no xmpp_server in the login respinse on Aditi. Would someone from your team have a couple of moments to make a wiki page with at least an overview how the new system is supposed to work.
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	2. explain the transition strategy we have in mind
[08:03]	Gez Linden:	3. get my team to work with you on the code/how the system works
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	4. start up a user group to make sure we're testing this/supporting group chat needs appropriately
[08:04]	WolfPup Lowenhar	would have to look through his logs form when he was testion the current chat log code
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	latif, we can do that after we get the project viewer up.
[08:04]	Gez Linden:	I want to get the code out there for you all ASAP
[08:04]	Cummere Mayo	still hates the name user group. really thinks it should be discussion group or intrest group ... *mutters*
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah FJ said something about the project viewer by the end of January
[08:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford	looks at his calendar.
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	I'm interested in implementing this new chat protocol for non-Linden derived viewers, so any documentation would be extremely helpful
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	January 35th maybe?
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	even a high lever overview how is it supposed to work
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	:-)
[08:05]	Gez Linden:	k
[08:06]	TankMaster Teichmann:	lol oz
[08:06]	Gez Linden	appreciates oz extending january for him
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez are you using XEP0045 for group chat?
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	ie. standard xmpp multi user chat specification
[08:07]	Gez Linden:	latif, I'm not 100% sure. I just recently jumped on the team. I will follow up with my devs, but it is my expectation that the answer is yes.
[08:07]	Oz Linden:	When we get a design overview together, we'll include some spec references
[08:07]	Latif Khalifa:	it would be really great if we had some forum where those devs could answer a question or two :)
[08:08]	Cummere Mayo:	hint gez mailing list! lol
[08:08]	Gez Linden:	osdev?
[08:08]	Cummere Mayo:	actually you might consider a group oriented one
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	osdev is fine
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	we don't need multiple lists
[08:08]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah agreed
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	I'll make sure the devs are there
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	afaik, they are
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	i will also test stuff like if i can chat with groups i'm not supposed to, etc. ;)
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	ossm
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	thanks for the soapbox ;)
[08:09]	Oz Linden:	Guys.... just so you know... Gez is one of the stronger supporters of Open Development in LL
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	cool
[08:09]	Jonathan Yap:	Thanks for popping in Gez
[08:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	:-)
[08:09]	Gez Linden:	surely
[08:10]	TankMaster Teichmann:	:)
[08:10]	Twisted Laws:	:)
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	thank you for the info Gez
[08:10]	Gez Linden:	no prob. Was hoping to give you all something shiny to play with today
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	Thank you all for coming... see some of you at the scrum standup
[08:10]	TankMaster Teichmann:	thx for your time oz, gez
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	hmm, still no xmpp_server in login response from aditi... i guess it's not ready there yet :)
[08:11]	Jonathan Yap:	Gez, what regions are xmpp enabled on aditi?
[08:11]	Gez Linden:	jonathan, its not by region
[08:11]	Gez Linden:	its actually a service that lives outside of the sim altogether
[08:11]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	we want to move the chat completely out of the sim
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	reduce traffic and all that jazz
[08:12]	TankMaster Teichmann:	which is good
[08:12]	Twisted Laws:	yeah!
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	so, there's a cluster up there
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, I doubt it wold be benefital to remove local chat from sim...
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	sorry
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	to be specific
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	(scripts often need to be alerted).
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	at the moment, this is only group chat
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	IM/Group IM sure
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	I have some ideas for things that we can do with xmpp chat
[08:12]	Jonathan Yap:	so what happens if we sign in to agni using that test viewer? The chat still goes through test test cluster - does what grid we are on matter?
[08:12]	Gez Linden:	but this won't touch local for now
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	technically jonathan
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	afaik, with the viewer we're building
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	it will still touch the aditi chat cluster
[08:13]	Latif Khalifa:	I can se regular 1-1 IM going xmpp route too. Would save a lot of hassle for the presence to figure out where to send it :)
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	and it doesn't interface with legacy
[08:13]	Gez Linden:	right now, I just want to prove that xmpp works. Transition is next
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	but I want to load test, make sure I have all of the functionality
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	look for edge cases
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	make sure people can't snoop
[08:14]	Gez Linden:	etc
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, i'm curious what the client has to do. login to xmpp server and join group chats that are xmpp rooms (say named with the group uuid?)
[08:15]	Gez Linden:	and latif, I agree... but we wanted to start with one system. IM is tied into other functions
[08:15]	Gez Linden:	yep
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	sounds logical
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	did you have to mod ejabberd much?
[08:16]	Latif Khalifa:	to do some sort of ACL?
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	there were 'some' mods.
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	mostly mapping our current group roles to ejabberd roles
[08:16]	Gez Linden:	and making sure our auth worked
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	but afaik, its still set up for us to get updates as necessary. It doesn't diverge too much
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	i've managed to login to the aditi cluster using mu regular sl credentials with Psu client
[08:17]	Gez Linden	nods.
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	that's the expectation
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	i was wondering if I could join the group chat if I knew group UUID ;)
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	don't need the UUID
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	group name?
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	its something like
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	AW-Groupies@conference.aditi.lindenlab.com
[08:17]	Gez Linden:	I think
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	er... .secondlife.com
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	sorry
[08:18]	Boroondas Gupte:	cool
[08:18]	TonyaSouther Resident:	ooh, nice.
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	feel free to try it out
[08:18]	Latif Khalifa:	so the client only need know group name?
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	atm, yes.
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	but I believe we create the channels currently
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	so we avoid room camping
[08:18]	Gez Linden:	I have some ideas for where we can go with it
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	and how we can open up new features like chat rooms
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	Corrected url for 'findjiras' tool repo: https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/findjiras
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	but for now, I'd like to just make sure group chat works ;)
[08:19]	TonyaSouther Resident:	thanks, Oz.
[08:19]	Gez Linden:	speaking of... I need to close up my machine and walk over to the office... get my team rolling so we can get you all some code
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Gez, many people are fond of current behaviour where you can be basically in all group chats without having windows open...
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	for support groups, etc.
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	Thanks for coming, Gez
[08:19]	Jonathan Yap:	You can still moderate/mute group chat?
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	no prob oz.
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	ok, thanks for your time Gez :)
[08:20]	TankMaster Teichmann:	thankyou for the effert you are putting in to get this working, gez
[08:20]	TonyaSouther Resident:	thanks, Gez.
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	latif, I'd like to get a better sense of what you were suggesting above
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	lets sync up later.
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	ok
[08:20]	Jonathan Yap:	Now we know who to send email to :)
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	indeed ;)
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[08:20]	Gez Linden:	ttfn

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