User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-08-27

Topic & Summary

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for August 27, 2009.

Topic: Open Topic: SL Viewer 2.0; LLMedia Plugins.

Summary

Open topic this week. A few highlights of the discussion were:

• According to reports of comments by Rob and Nyx Linden, the source for "Viewer 2.0" (aka "Viewer 2009", "SL09", and "SL 2.0") will still be released under an open source license, like the current viewer is.
• Some attendees speculated about why Viewer 2.0 development is being kept so secret.
• We discussed the new LLMedia plugin system, Aimee's VNC plugin, and the prospects for general (non-media) plugins.

Links

• Screenshot of Aimee'sVNC LLMedia plugin
• WebEx conference software
• Pure Data programming language
• Serving Simple HTML by LSL script
• Voice chat-reactive SL objects

Transcript

[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Open topic today. Anything you guys wanna talk about?
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	ah it must be the blowu appearance of the cussions
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	no need for glue morg it is only attached to neck
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well Rob seemed to confirm that Viewer2.0 would be open source too, and Nyx seemed to say it even more firmly. So I guess that's worth mentioning.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick:	actually the seat cushions kinda remind be of pregnancy donuts
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wonder why all the secrecy
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	anyone know anything about changes to UI/Grapics or code?
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	err, donut pillows
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	say no more Aimee
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	not pregnant donuts lol
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	I'm not getting prego cause these stomachs talk
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	well, I found out one thing that's in Viewer2.0 in the last meeting ... wait for it ... mone of my minor minimap bug fixes from Snowglobe
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey!
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	all this SL09 secrecy may cause a revolt against the new technology
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: Maybe LL has finally decided that anything they show will get torn apart before it's even done.
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Sai
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's not "torn apart", its "deconstruction".
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hi lo hi lo
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I think they're surprised at the speed with which Aiee implemented VNC
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	I can understand, if not necessarily agree with the commercial desire to keep their "trade secrets" till launch
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Aimee*
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	wow so this could be a great surprise since most people are on emerald with lots of info on the map and don't know Snow
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	trouble is the people that take those decisions don't have to sit there and see how many OS developers it's losing them
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wow... so many people today.
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hiya Tillie and Mealea
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	The table expands
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	kind of feel sorry of Rob and Merov, they can see it as much as any of us I'm sure, but have to sit there and take the flack
[15:16]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello! :)
[15:16]	Opensource Obscure:	mentioning the meeting at previous office hour worked for me.
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	this is the rebelion against new technology geneko
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Mealea, Tillie, Lillie :-)
[15:16]	Mealea Ying:	Hi!!!
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	More like new buzzwords...
[15:17]	Armin Weatherwax:	hm. no mushrooms :/
[15:17]	Mealea Ying:	to everyone who I can and cant see yet
[15:17]	Lillie Yifu:	One thing htat is occuring to me
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Sai! (was ladies first :P)
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	most open hours have little purpose atm
[15:17]	Lillie Yifu:	is that having a widget builder for sl would be useful
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	I didn't like the mushrooms. You like'em?
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick:	most of the hits on my youtube videos have come from LL offices I think lol
[15:17]	Lillie Yifu:	I'm ethnically chinese, mushrooms are almost a food group
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	I prefer these pregnancy doughnuts but Aimee doesn't
[15:17]	Mealea Ying:	and a powerfull halucinigen
[15:17]	Opensource Obscure:	would you elaborate a bit what you mean Lillie? sounds interesting
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Can you read Mandarin then Lillie?
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: very interesting what Rob said about Lindens being particularly amazed !
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm, with this many people, I suppose I'd better get out the shrooms
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, Aimee has amazed everybody :D
[15:18]	Lillie Yifu:	My character reading isn't all that good
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	:|
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli hops over to the shrooms
[15:18]	Lillie Yifu:	I've been brushing up on it by reading Du Fu and other tang poets
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	well it looks like speculativediscussion on SL09 would be a waste of time since we are really mostly guessing
[15:18]	Mealea Ying:	Im one of the amazed people
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	the real secret is just how easy it was, but ssssh
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth is also ethnically Chinese but ....
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I can see it should be easy
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Too big! >_<
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Add the shrooms around the table, and people can pick their choice :-)
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	... err, I mean too far apart.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morg++
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	I can make them closer
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick:	it will become easier with better documentation
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	This small table is definitely claustrophobic. Andrew/Simon's large one is much less so.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	the big question about SL09 (viewer 2) is if Philip will do any code hehe
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	yup but Simon's table is laggy
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko, great pose :P
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, SL09 seems to be the topic du jour
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	better documentation? you mean SL09
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yup.
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I thought she meant for the media plugin
[15:21]	Lillie Yifu:	I'm betting that the viewer will be closed
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	anyone can confirm that the radial (pie) menu is gone?
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morg was saying earlier that Rob and Nyx said the new viewer will be open, too
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	we just heard to the contrary Lillie
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Which is nice
[15:22]	Mealea Ying:	I made that rumor
[15:22]	Lillie Yifu:	they said "there is no plan to change the licensing"
[15:22]	Lillie Yifu:	which is a non-answer
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	but it was cat speaking
[15:22]	Opensource Obscure:	?
[15:22]	Tillie Ariantho:	But nyx clarified.
[15:23]	Tillie Ariantho:	[14:47] Nyx Linden: we're not reverting to closed source.
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: it felt like Rob was answering by repeating the sentence of a lawyer right behind him .... somewhat vague. But Nyx seemed much more categorical.
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, was nice to hear a linden give a categorical answer on something
[15:23]	Opensource Obscure:	AFAIK that means that the viewer is, and will be mostly GPL-ed, with different license on some 3rd party stuff they ship with the viewer
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[15:23]	Opensource Obscure:	this is encouraging
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	any idea on the SLVoice and Fmod?
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Notice that Nyx said "not reverting". Well Viewer2.0 has never been open, so there would be nothing to revert. (To be perfectly precise about it)
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aw yeah that's it.
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	you are being picky Morg, I think he meant viewer at large
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tillie: yummy :P
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	gosh Jankies are always hungry
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: yes, I know. But lawyers are like that, I put nothing past them.
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's a clear struggle within LL between wanting to support open source, and knowing that if they release code before shipping someone will compile and release it before them, can't have it both ways though
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yep
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	are these meditation mats to help in speculations Jacek
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Fmod is already history.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Imp and Emerald and Meerkat would totally steal all their thunder >:D
[15:26]	Lillie Yifu:	anyway to bring something up
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	I have a feeling shadows has dented their pride a bit
[15:26]	Lillie Yifu:	I've been hacking viewers
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	They still have Snowglobe as their trump though.
[15:26]	Mealea Ying:	they already are......
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow, seating options
[15:26]	Lillie Yifu:	and right now it is hard to make a new interface element
[15:26]	Lillie Yifu:	an interface builder would be useful for sl
[15:26]	Mealea Ying:	but its not a trump.....
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's a hell of a lot of people out there that think shadows originated with Kirsten and LL adopted them from her
[15:26]	Lillie Yifu:	to t least e able to draw dialgo boxes and turn them into ll xml
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Aimee: Ugh :(
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... I'm not sure how useful would that be.
[15:27]	Opensource Obscure:	did anyone here played with Render-pipeline viewer?
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	but what about SLVoice, it takes longer and longer to connect and people are having more problems
[15:27]	Lillie Yifu:	very useful
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Lillie: That's an interesting idea for a tool
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax:	well snowglobe has its charme ... but it's not really on the road for having compatibility with other virtual worlds
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	this is the one with decent shadows Open?
[15:27]	Lillie Yifu:	because client side scripts could then have client side dialog boxes
[15:27]	Mealea Ying:	I actualy dont instal it
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	on and off in the past OO, but it's not beenthat well supported on Mac so far
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	I like Snow, it feels faster
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	Pixel is porting the existing OGP stuff to Snowglobe at the moment I believe
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	What sort of OGP stuff?
[15:29]	Mealea Ying:	I find that the only fast poart is the map, if I get 15 fps in a place in Snow I get less than one most of the time... but I also seem to be the exception
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Armin: Linden's interest in interop is debateable. Being on the AWG then in MMOX and now in OGP, I have to say I'm underwhelmed. The ungenerous interpretation is that they're stalling on interop on purpose.
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	not my area really, so I've not been following, she's just mentioned it on IRC a few times
[15:30]	Mealea Ying:	speaking of IRC Emerald has IRC in the comunication window now
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	oh well, just have to run viewers for other worlds on a prim lol
[15:30]	Opensource Obscure:	i must leave now. take care you all - ciao !
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ciao, OO
[15:30]	Armin Weatherwax:	Morgaine: well, they need to decide if they want a standard or not
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	thanks for coming
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	The "generous" interpretation is that they have no manpower to dedicate to interop, and that the lead person is not particularly helpful.
[15:30]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes, the IRC tab is cool. :)
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	byee open
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick is seriously thinking about making an SL client as a client plug-in
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	WOOOT!!!!
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hahaha
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	damn tempting
[15:31]	Lillie Yifu:	the middle is tha thtey are doing interop -- for their corproate clients and want enough interop for that, but no more
[15:31]	Tillie Ariantho:	What would that do then?
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	just an OpenGL surface to render to after all lol
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	An SL client viewing a laptop that shows a VNC stream showing the LLMedia test app showing the first SL client that's showing the...
[15:31]	Mealea Ying:	Amiee, could you make one as a plugin for FireFox? it would be very cool to have SL on the web and not just the web on a prim
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	your avatar could have it's own avatar and log in to 3rd life
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	that is bad news Morg, once you make a new viewer with no regard for interop, it will be harder to move it towards support
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Replace LL's whacky home-built engine by GLUI + shaders.
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick already logged in to SL on a prim via VNC :D
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	very weird
[15:32]	Mealea Ying grins!
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: I don't think it matters in the end, because Opensim's going to dictate interop, not LL.
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	especially when you log on at the same location
[15:32]	Lillie Yifu:	ll had to speciically stop people from logging into sl through lsl
[15:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	Aimee: haha, like that funny youtube thingy abour World of World of Warcraft. :P
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	OpenSim will adopt HTTP texture support in the near future, surely?
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	that is true, but LL even patchy support would give it a population
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	don't need the test app any more :)
[15:33]	Mealea Ying:	I think thats in the works already but Im not sure where I read it
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so you have interactive keyboard mouse support now, Aimee?
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	well, only for interaction :S
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	was just meaning it's running on a prim
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right right
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	so are you logged in twice or what? I thought it was a media stream
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, could write a script to send the events out via http
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	I need the test app. Don't think the plugin-api branch viewer will ever get past the fonts initialization on my box, and I don't understand fonts well enough to hack it. But I'll try anyway.
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	using the touch events
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://www.flickr.com/photos/aimeethyst/3860441800/ Charlette
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	seen the photo on the AWG, but let me look again
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://www.flickr.com/photos/aimeethyst/3860441800/sizes/o/ shows it better
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm trying to figure out how to request a new workspace or whatever from squeak via the plugin interface. I guess a URL to a specific seaside page that creates an offscreen drawing surface might work
[15:36]	Mealea Ying:	ahhh... great, I just had something returned and the asset server failed to deliver them! hehehe!
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's the live screen of my laptop logged in with an alt
[15:36]	Armin Weatherwax wonders if torley knows what he's seeing
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tillie: that barbie looks really good in this setting :-)
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh Armin, I'm not quite sure he got it immediately I think he did since though
[15:36]	Tillie Ariantho:	barbie?
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	BBQ
[15:36]	Tillie Ariantho:	ah bbq
[15:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bbq?
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	did you just notice the sizzle
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Behind Tillie. She won Iron Builder with it
[15:37]	Tillie Ariantho:	the smoking thingy behund me, Sai. All made of rings only, at iron builder.
[15:37]	Aimee Trescothick:	mustard and ketchup for me please, hold the onions
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	OK Aimee I get the point, the double login threw me
[15:37]	Mealea Ying:	I'll take her onions please
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, OK. was looking for a BBQ in AImee's picture
[15:38]	Tillie Ariantho:	^^
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	LO
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	L
[15:38]	Mealea Ying:	now Im hungry again
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee - - .... no BBQ in picture :P
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	actually there is a camp fire just off to the left of where that picture was taken
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth is somewhat offended by the American flag which was, no doubt, chosen in a hurry.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, you silly people
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth has been hungry since an hour ago...
[15:39]	Mealea Ying:	would you prefer the North Koreian flag?
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	strikes me that the animated spoke would look good in the mirror effect of the laptops
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	animated smoke*
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	the flag seems incorrect, not enough stripes
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	It should be the Chinese flag, to express who own most US government bonds ;-)
[15:39]	Mealea Ying:	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Haha, can we at least *try* to stay on the topic of User Experience? xD
[15:40]	Lillie Yifu:	The Japanese own more than China
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	I can't help derailing it!
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sorry...
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova looks puzzled
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	shhh... we took at NOriega because he was dealing with the Chinese. Are you implying that we invaded a foreign country for no reason whatsoever?
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, UXIG!!! /facepalms
[15:40]	Mealea Ying:	He's in Florida
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	:P
[15:40]	Lillie Yifu:	any\\\\\\an\\any way UI stuff
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	what would chinese Second Life™ viewer look like, hacking windows including bootleg MS Office
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm...
[15:40]	Mealea Ying:	ok.... usr experience.....
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	Actually I have seen somebody providing a bootleg SL enviroment...
[15:41]	Mealea Ying:	right now there are wide spread asset failiers
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: has there been discussion about PluginAPI in the Imprudence forum?
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	my experience as Second Life™ user is increasingly demoralising
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	But I forgot. I think they had a leg with China Telecom as well.
[15:41]	Tillie Ariantho:	Wasnt easy to make it look right A BIT, with only using RINGS!
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not yet, Morg. I need to check it out. I've only had my freedom for a few days, hehe
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk, heh
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Is it specifically for media things, or did LL put any thought into general plugin architecture?
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	I'm hoping its the first stage
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Specific but extensible I guess., Aimee?
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just wondering if you thought it was relatively extensible. Third parties will want to extend it for certain, even if LL don't
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	(LL do, just not initially, if I read them right)
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	whether they get beyond the first stage or get distracted by omething else shinier is another matter
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	+s
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	so theoretically UI events could have some form of clientside widget support via a plugin?
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	in theory yes
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	I know Q has spoken in favour of a more general plug-in system, and he seems to carry a fair amount of weight in what gets done
[15:45]	Armin Weatherwax:	hm, anything known about *why* they started developing in that direction?
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	that would be good since the basic rendering is OK hehe, most alt viewers just add features and could continue even if not opensource just API for plugins
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well the interface between the viewer and the plugin-shell + loaded plugin is a TCP socket and shared memory, so in principle anything is possible. But of course it all hinges on what API and callbacks there are inside the viewer.
[15:46]	Lillie Yifu:	Same reasons those of us on the outside have been clamoring for plugin architecture for some time
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	I think it probably came out of the move from mozlib to webkit
[15:46]	Lillie Yifu:	arbitrary media streams on prims
[15:46]	0x12502008&Grasserella di Gomma: Vital Energy left 20.000000 I can sense partners in a radius of 10.000000 meters I look for a partner every 60.000000 seconds. My aging rate is of a 5 factor.
[15:46]	Mealea Ying:	oops sorry
[15:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	surely they wanna wave plugins for those business guys they want to get into SL.
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	they realised there was a big win to be had in abstracting it a stage futher
[15:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	have -> have
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	modularity used to be a fashion in object oriented and plugins kind of seem to fit this mould
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	*further
[15:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	wave -> have
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	wave is good .... Google Wave in a plugin :P
[15:47]	Lillie Yifu:	also to get media to come into sl
[15:47]	Lillie Yifu:	because frankly
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	makes sense Tilly, SN plugin
[15:47]	Lillie Yifu:	media in sl is really bad
[15:47]	Tillie Ariantho:	All the stuff you usually need on teleconferencing etc.
[15:47]	Tillie Ariantho:	or maybe something like shared noticeboard...
[15:47]	Lillie Yifu nods
[15:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	and there's probably a lot of stuff out there that they'd like to be media compatible with, but are licence incompatible with when it comes to putting the code in the viewer
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	quicktime, not really the cutting edge I suppose
[15:48]	Mealea Ying:	it seems to me that media in sl is bad because running sl is hard enough on people s computers and when you are at such low framerates anyway adding things like video dosent help, and the video just suffers....
[15:49]	Mealea Ying:	not all media obviously but a lot of it
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: yep, very true, one of the reasons I gave for the multi-process client way back in AWG --- sockets are a license barrier, so I can see how LL kinda like that aspect of it.
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick is going to have a massive celebration the day she can replace all her Webex meetings with virtual world ones
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	shared whiteboard Tilly would be one of the ways to make this stupid education stuff more convincing for not it is soo lame
[15:49]	Tillie Ariantho:	^^
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: Webex?
[15:49]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oh, there is some language teaching, thats kinda funny. :) Seems to work.
[15:49]	Mealea Ying:	webx advertisments ruing oneof my favroite music streams
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://www.webex.co.uk/
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha
[15:50]	Mealea Ying:	ruin rather
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	what the majority of corporates use for web conferencing
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	I mean ed at large, most of the time a whiteboard is the start, not thinking of 'something' that works as is, but general
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's like having meetings in a broom cupboard when you're used to SL
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	yup I hear about Webex on the stream too
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	hehe Aimee
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	but it does desktop sharing, powerpoint, shared browser etc.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I don't know where these media plugins are heading, but I've got this feeling that it's going to be huge once the community starts spewing out plugins.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	And unexpected
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	so the first thing clients want to know is how they do all those things they're used to in here
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	After all, LL didn't expect VNC :-)
[15:52]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes first plugin will be mandatory, and that will stream in ads from LL. :P
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL
[15:52]	Mealea Ying:	oh crap!
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	someone gave me a little push in the direction of another future plug-in possibly too today
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... I fear one of these plugins will be the next Vivox.
[15:53]	Mealea Ying:	the second will be optional and it will be an add blocker
[15:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	haha
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	which one, AImee?
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Pushed by many yet not hackable at all.
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://puredata.info/
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	Aimee is there any point in explaining basic functionality of VNC to us here?
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tell us Aimee!
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	that is would you
[15:53]	Mealea Ying:	this could also open some new ways for griefers to have their fun
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	we have 7 min hehe
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, I've come across PD from MIDI!
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Never used it though
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Data probably better as a quick primer
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	OK
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	There you go, that screenshot is a music development environment, all MIDI driven + audio streams
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: musicians will MOVE you :-))))
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOVE*
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	They might move you too
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, the push came from someone that's well known in that area
[15:55]	Mealea Ying:	oooooohhhh. Midi???? this would be good~!!!!!!
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah, Dizzy!
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	Max MSP is very popular at universities but picey
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	;)
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's a perfect use-case for localhost
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, Pd is related to Max, open source, and debateably better
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	originated by the same guy
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, I used to go to Dizzy's meetings (lots of Lindens present at them too, MIDI is popular), and we were always on about such things.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	that sounds good, the basic premise of Max is good, but not everything can be developed as a diagram
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	aimee, how are you getting the texture on your laptop into SL?
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	Pd can also process video as well as audio
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the server I mean
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	OMG, that would be so powerful. I'd be tempted to make music myself (not that anyone would want to hear it)
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	hehe you could make your own elevator to play it in Morg
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	HAHAHA
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, and lock it between floors :P
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	set up a tube station
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm? running VNC server on the laptop, VNC client plugin is run by the SL client, SL client gives the VNC plugin and area of shared memory to write the texture into
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	I'm into processing (Java for artists from MIT peeps) similar aspiration, but all done in code
[15:59]	Mealea Ying:	hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	*an area
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: problem: latency. Musicians hate any latency greater than about 3-5 ms.
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, for conventional music
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	As you know :-)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	music is one thing, soundscapes are less demanding
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	Dizzy I think is more interested in build reactive musical environments
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	collaboration/interaction in this sense doesn't need to beat precise
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	yeah
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	one way around the latency issue is related to the musical stuff we've been discussing recently Morgaine
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	live looping
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	make events relative to others
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh wow!!!! Just thought of something --- plugins don't have to be only inputs, they can be outputs as well --- make a plugin for Jack and the latency issue with the viewer disappears. Ie. the UI could still have latency but the audio could avoid it.
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	each artist can overdub
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	everyone can hear stuff at their own time
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Morgaine, that's another usecase for localhost...
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: there's a client called Ninjam in which everyone hears the mixed output from N bars earlier.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai: yep!
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	this is another case for per-prim media streams
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	yeah, kind of like what I'm thinking of Morg
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Interesting
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	I want to be able to spacialize the audio from the media stream
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	aimee, how are you getting the visual VNC into SL? Or can others look over your shoulder and see the texture on the laptop?
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: 5.1
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	7.1
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	exactly
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Mojito has worked that out
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	12.1 :P
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	999.9
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	Sai media doesn't go SL serverside
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	grab the location of the text chat and convert it to spatialized sound
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so, the lindens weren't aware that your demo was localhost only...
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	each client connects directly to the media URI, same as viewing a normal media stream
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	they know that
[16:05]	Armin Weatherwax:	late here ... good night everybody :)
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, Armin :)
[16:05]	Armin Weatherwax:	cu all soon
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	the VNC server can connect to multiple clients
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	aime, right. What I mean is that without the local host hack, you couldn't do what you did
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	spatialised sound can even work on headphones, i worked on Dolby Headphone, quite good representation
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	which is a good thing, each viewer has to be authed
[16:05]	Tillie Ariantho:	I think for the VNC thingy its completely ok that only one can see it. Other plugins will be different.
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	what localhost hack?
[16:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	did you go through localhost or did you have the server... oh, the VNC server is remote. NM
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	to have a lot of viewers from the net you'd probably want to use a VNC reflector located somewhere with plenty of bandwidth, same as people do with shoutcast etc. for DJing etc.
[16:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	can they all be interactive at once?
[16:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	otherwise each viewer connecting to your machine is going to eat ADSL upstream bandwidth pretty fast
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, though that can get confusing lol
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	There is no localhost hack. The test app has connections to google, the painter app, the lemmings site, and a ton of others.
[16:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right, thought the VNC was being done through local host. My bad
[16:09]	Mealea Ying:	the lemmings site?
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	I would envisage having presenter or view only levels of access, which some VNC servers support
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee's just happened to be local. It's not a hack.
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, without parcel control, it's a hack, period
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	wasn't local host, was on several different machines
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Can someone explain what I'm missing? It's obvious I'm out of the loop here. Localhost hack?
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah, that's what i realized. you didn't use localhost at all. For somereason I thought you were
[16:10]	Tillie Ariantho:	The VNC stuff maybe could be broadcasted noninteractive too. Just block response from non-authed clients. You could use that for teachings and stuff, where people shall be able to see you working... Like a Photoshop class. ^^
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	(WK) Google Home Page,http://www.google.com (WK) BBC News Home Page,http://news.bbc.co.uk (WK) Second Life,http://secondlife.com (WK) WebKit Home ,http://www.webkit.org (WK) Yahoo News,http://news.yahoo.com (WK) Canvas Paint (DHTML version of MS Paint),http://www.canvaspaint.org (WK) DHTML Lemmings!,http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ (WK) DHTML graphics demos,http://www.dhteumeuleu.com/ (WK) Neat Javascript 3D,http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	me too Jacek lol
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	exactly Tillie
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lemmings there somewhere. That's from the test app bookmarks
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's option on the server whether to allow interaction or view only
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	localhost is just your PC
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick:	some servers support separate passwords giving each level at the same time
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	eg like your PERL interpreter
[16:12]	Lillie Yifu:	bye all
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	take care Lillie
[16:12]	Tillie Ariantho:	There was some X application as frontend for the kill commandline tool, where you could kill processes using a gun. :P
[16:12]	Tillie Ariantho:	Could do that via plugin, too. ^^
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	xkill?
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Lillie :-)
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	yup but the result is the same as using a server when you have some resource locally
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	byee Lil
[16:13]	Tillie Ariantho:	xkill maybe
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	Mealea, you can't spend too much time in company of others, thinking of your hair
[16:14]	Mealea Ying:	oh?
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: no hack anywhere --- the plugins simply receive a URL from the viewer or from the test app --- they don't know what generates the URL, and they'll open anything.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	just a comment on the headspin one gets looking at your hair (tenticles) Mealea
[16:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, the viewer just has a list of what plugin to use for what mime-type, or URI scheme, runs the appropriate one and hands it the URi to do whatever it likes with
[16:15]	Mealea Ying grins
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's very cool :-)
[16:16]	Mealea Ying:	this is the tame version... my other me has something like this only threre are 256 of them on every attachment point
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	WOW, hehe :-)
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	tame, suppose the busy is for trolls
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds good. I'm just confused about what Sai thinks is a hack. Using a localhost URL in the parcel media field?
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, that's got me confused too
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	saij may have used the term hack a bit loosely
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai += cookie :-)
[16:17]	Mealea Ying grins!
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	If you put localhost in the parcel media, each of the clients will try to connect to localhost, i.e. themselves. So they wouldn't see the same thing you're seeing, but it's not exactly a hack
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	too many meetings; saj may be just overheating
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	you can connect to a URI on the local machine if you want to
[16:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova looks for a seat further away from Sai in case he explodes
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm pretty sure you can even do file:// URLs
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	precisely
[16:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes, that way you could force the client to use a local proxy for whatever. :)
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	CGI on PERL/Xitami for example is developed this way
[16:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	I don't think there's a handler there for the file:// scheme
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	And Aimee will soon be opening secondlife://....... :DDDDDD
[16:19]	Mealea Ying:	C\*.*
[16:19]	Aimee Trescothick:	but I suspect putting it in mime-types.xml pointing at the webkit plugin may well work
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Now if you want a *real* abuse of the parcel media field... you could use it to server HTML from an LSL script. >:D http://tentacolor.com/2008/11/24/serving-simple-html-by-lsl-script/
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	even live media previews in Second Life™ are the same
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	precisely
[16:19]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, saw that :)
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	eg to make ive sculpty previews
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although my trick was more impressive before LL added the HTTP-in feature. Boo.
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	You could do cooler stuff with HTTP-in, though. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	been thinking about that too
[16:21]	Saijanai Kuhn's brain finishes exploding. The only hack invoved is if you don't have parcel media control .Sorry for the confusion
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick:	the quicktime plugin also supports Apple Text Descriptors
[16:21]	Mealea Ying:	do you actualy type that "™" every time?
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick:	but I guess that wouldn't work on linux :(
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah. So tricking the viewer into loading a URL without actually setting the parcel URL. That's a little bit o fa hack, yeah
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	*of a
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	aaaah right
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	I was doing it all on my own island
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	so I have control of the parcel media
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mystery solved!
[16:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I could see having a localhost parcel media. Example: http://localhost:8080/seaside/myplugin
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Definitely
[16:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's what I was thinking about using QR codes to get around
[16:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and anyone wanting to participate in your p2p wargame plugin, uses it
[16:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	whether its real p2p or just a private connection to another server, is immaterial
[16:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	place a QR code texture on a prim, patch the viewer to detect QR codes in textures
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess putting a gridproxy in front of the viewer and injecting different URLs would be a nice hack too :-)
[16:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	complicated, from what I have heard
[16:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you need to figure out the media texture UUID as well
[16:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	if it sees a QR code, treat it as a media texture and pull the URI out of the QR code
[16:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	no need for parcel media
[16:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	and no need for server side support from LL
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hopefully when plugins are more generalized, you wouldn't have to bother with parcel media to connect to local things
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who said that the QR code texture has to come from the sim ^_^
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Might as well subvert it totally :P
[16:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL morgaine
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	yup it all promisses an oceanof opportunity for griefing as well
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	DOS to the max
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Will be fun
[16:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, the QR code is just a way to trick LL into storing the URI for you and associating it with a surface
[16:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	easiest and klukiest is just to use teh description field
[16:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ooh local chat lag
[16:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	won't work Sai
[16:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	why not?
[16:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's only there for a texture as an inventory object
[16:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	AFAIK
[16:28]	Mealea Ying:	could be fun to point this at a video stream from a screen capture utility looking at the SL window, I could give my beastys vision
[16:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right, but you use the object's description field to ID the url. If you have more than one, you use csv
[16:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	csv... comman separated... o nm
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mealea: what a bizarre idea! /me thinks
[16:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, but that uses up useful script storage space
[16:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[16:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	I often use the description for other storage
[16:30]	Accurate Height Detector: Tillie Ariantho is 2.15m (7ft. 0in.) tall.
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli wonders if SL will have proper persistant data storage sometime in the next 10 years.
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[16:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	can do that right now via localhost
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	MOOs have only had it for, like, 10 or 20.
[16:31]	Mealea Ying:	I have been thinking about it from the begining, now its possible
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mealea's head had kittens! ^_^
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	persistance is supposed to be one of the basic ingredients of VW, but... sims get wiped all the time
[16:32]	Mealea Ying:	hehehehehehehehe!
[16:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh
[16:32]	0x12502008&Grasserella di Gomma: Vital Energy left 20.000000 I can sense partners in a radius of 9.000000 meters I look for a partner every 190.000000 seconds. My aging rate is of a 5 factor.
[16:32]	Mealea Ying:	Charlette I wasent laughing at what you just said
[16:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	if you're wearing some associated speech gestures it will react to you talking on voice
[16:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	even better, play it music over the voice channel, it loves that
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hee. How does it work?
[16:33]	Mealea Ying:	hehehehehehehe!
[16:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	the voice gestures chat numbers on a channel for different sound intensity levels
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	wow Mealea is growing all over the ground now
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahhhhh. Interesting.
[16:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	the script in it lstens for them and adjusts spin rate and things
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	like prim avie mouths listen to your own
[16:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, same principle as used in some prim mouths
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Even with the tentacles, Sai's ARC is still 1 :P
[16:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its not part of the avie. Just sitting above it
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah, hehe
[16:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	actually, its just magic
[16:37]	Mealea Ying:	its also mating up there
[16:37]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_JnCEfASvE&hd=1
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:37]	Mealea Ying:	your going to get particles in your beard
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tentacle plant mating with Sai's hair?
[16:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	not exactly the greatest quality video, but gives the general idea
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Techwolf
[16:39]	Mealea Ying:	it wont play....
[16:39]	Techwolf Lupindo:	HI all
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Tech
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Plays for me Mealea
[16:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	are you opening it in the in -world browser? that won't play youtube ... flash
[16:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you know, if you could have a media plugin to feed sculpty textures directly...
[16:40]	Mealea Ying:	its going now, just very baddly.... I dont know if Youtube is messed uo or if itsfirefox lately
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	I always pop up in-viewer first, then if it's worth it bring up external
[16:40]	Charlette Proto:	use Chrome or IE, Firefox was never good on Tube
[16:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	qarls always been going on about Qt feed for sculpties, so why have the overhead or requirement of QT? Just stream the texture
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	iiinteresting
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmmmm
[16:41]	Mealea Ying:	I want whayt you just described very baddly
[16:42]	Accurate Height Detector: Tillie Ariantho is 2.15m (7ft. 0in.) tall.
[16:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	as always run it in localhost and mirror it to a streaming server
[16:42]	Mealea Ying:	its only bad in the last month... and as for ie it simply dosent work at all
[16:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	that video does get a bit stuttery at point, think I was having some problems with the recording
[16:42]	Accurate Height Detector: Tillie Ariantho is 2.15m (7ft. 0in.) tall.
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	are these reacting to sound Aimee?
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's reacting to the music
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	what sound, there is no stream?
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	oh theses
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	yup
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	sorry, thought you meant the video
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	they look like the ones in vid
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	no, these are just doing random stuff
[16:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so a DJ could control the media on his/her own client and stream the result to the dancers in realtime
[16:44]	Charlette Proto:	ah get it
[16:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	they do that when they get bored with nothing to listen too
[16:44]	Mealea Ying:	hehehehehehehe!
[16:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my hair!
[16:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	the flex randomizes them a bit too
[16:44]	Mealea Ying:	Shit! sorry!!!!!!!!
[16:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	np
[16:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe. Gotta run, all. Thanks for coming, and see you next week!
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	byee jacek
[16:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	I like how they look if you look straight down on them )
[16:45]	Mealea Ying:	Bye Jacek!
[16:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	thanks Jacek :)
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Jacek. Good open topic, nicely coincided with the plugins news :-)
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli has perfectly timed laziness!