User:Ama Omega/archive/Office Hours/2010-07-07

List of Attendees

• Aimee Linden
• Ardy Lay
• Chaley May
• Dale Glass
• Gazanfer Jehangir
• Graham Mills
• Kaluura Boa
• Kelly Linden
• Latif Khalifa
• Liisa Runo
• Loon AO
• Morgaine Dinova
• Motor Loon
• Moundsa Mayo
• NeoBokrug Elytis
• Opensource Obscure
• Qie Niangao
• Saikiki Moriguchi
• sensory Hax
• Sylar Heckroth
• Tammy Nowotny
• Techwolf Lupindo
• Trendone Engineer

Transcript

[08:57]	Opensource Obscure:	who did the Linux part, Aimee?
[08:57]	Ardy Lay:	The wearer has the coice of what components to use to suit their needs.
[08:57]	Aimee Linden:	not sure now
[08:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy, less than a 1/4 of people visiting my store have viewers capable of using alpha masks... so yeah, we'd have to bundle two versions to make it commercially viable
[08:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This is what I looked like. http://www.techwolf.net/d10a32.html
[08:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	ack...wrong windows.
[08:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	&*()&*(&*() viewer UI.
[08:59]	Ardy Lay:	A little over half of the people shopping in Luskwood use Viewer 2 ot deriviatives.
[08:59]	Opensource Obscure:	xD
[08:59]	Ardy Lay:	That does vary over time.
[08:59]	Ardy Lay:	Some days it's lower, some days it's higher.
[08:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Most of those shopper are new users that have yet to discover a better viewer does exists out there.
[09:00]	Latif Khalifa:	i guess it's even lower on adult shopping sites due to lack of viewer2-based rlv capable client
[09:00]	Ardy Lay:	Many of the older residents are using Viewer 2 despite their conflicts with the UI. They want to use the new features.
[09:01]	Opensource Obscure:	time to say bye everybody
[09:01]	Latif Khalifa:	bye OO
[09:01]	Ardy Lay:	There are, of course, a lot of holdouts. I was for a while, used viewer-external until it's perfoamance degraded to below-usable then went back to Snowglobe 1.4.0
[09:01]	Techwolf Lupindo:	some tpv are going nuts wiht the though of having to port features three times. Once for 1.23.5 base code, once for 1.4 base code and again for 2.0 base code and another for 2.1 based code.
[09:02]	Liisa Runo:	i sent message to SL beta group
[09:02]	Kelly Linden:	wow
[09:02]	Kaluura Boa:	hehehe
[09:02]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe.
[09:02]	Kaluura Boa:	We know which buttons to push
[09:03]	Kelly Linden:	there ya go I guess.
[09:03]	Kelly Linden:	might have been better to keep it quiet since I don't actually have a good topic for today.
[09:03]	Kelly Linden:	too late now
[09:03]	Liisa Runo:	too late
[09:04]	Opensource Obscure:	hi Neo ^^
[09:04]	Sylar Heckroth:	hello everybody
[09:04]	Kaluura Boa:	llCastRay()?
[09:04]	Opensource Obscure:	hi Kelly and everybody
[09:04]	Ardy Lay:	flashmob
[09:04]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	Hiya Opensource.
[09:04]	Sylar Heckroth:	hiya kelly
[09:04]	Kelly Linden:	that is a fun function isn't it Kaluura, did you have a chance to play with it?
[09:04]	Tammy Nowotny:	hello!
[09:04]	Kaluura Boa:	ROFL A lot!
[09:04]	Kelly Linden:	were those raytracing demos I saw yours?
[09:04]	Kaluura Boa:	I made a raytracer...
[09:04]	Kelly Linden:	heh
[09:04]	Kelly Linden:	guess so
[09:04]	Kelly Linden:	heard you used all the prims in a sim.
[09:05]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[09:05]	Sylar Heckroth:	lol
[09:05]	Kaluura Boa:	Not that much! =^_^=
[09:05]	Liisa Runo:	here is some pictures of the rayPewPewCam we made
[09:05]	Liisa Runo:	we used only ~900 prims
[09:05]	Kelly Linden:	for the display?
[09:05]	Sylar Heckroth:	that's not too bad
[09:05]	Liisa Runo:	yea
[09:06]	Kelly Linden:	we need a better drawing API
[09:06]	Kaluura Boa:	Sure!
[09:06]	Kelly Linden:	I guess you could use some data: urls and javascript in 2.0 viewers
[09:06]	Opensource Obscure:	I thought ... what Kelly said.
[09:07]	Kaluura Boa:	V2... Bleh...
[09:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's been said by other Lindens, one of the most important things lacking in SL prim infrastructure is a high;y interactive whiteboard.
[09:07]	Moundsa Mayo:	Need to target ALL Residents, not just V2 users.
[09:07]	Kelly Linden:	2.1 is better! well, at least it lets you switch the side bar to overlay mode. :p
[09:07]	Liisa Runo:	if it can be kept in LSL and inside SL, the better, cycling data out from SL just to be sent back is silly
[09:07]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	2.1 is future
[09:08]	Moundsa Mayo:	perhaps - FUTURE>
[09:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	yea, the maps.secondlife.com are really annoying. I have to clicck four times to tp
[09:08]	Tammy Nowotny:	that was rally dumb the way the main screen interacted with the sidebar in 2.0.
[09:08]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i am working with 2.0
[09:08]	Sylar Heckroth:	when i came back i used viewer 2.0 for 5 min before asking my friends if there was another option XD
[09:08]	Graham Mills:	I use 2.0 all the time
[09:08]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	and i love moap
[09:08]	Kaluura Boa:	Just can't stand the thing...
[09:08]	Moundsa Mayo:	I work in the present.
[09:08]	Latif Khalifa:	snowglobe integrated a patch to recognize those maps "slurls" too
[09:08]	Tammy Nowotny:	now if you can jusst make the notifications reaable again, you may have a semi-useable viewer by 2.4 or 2.5
[09:08]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	u mean the tabs lauura?
[09:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	MoaP has nothing to do with the 2.x UI. It could just as easily work with the 1.x UI.
[09:09]	Kaluura Boa:	Exactly...
[09:09]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	then i am on with 1,x ui
[09:09]	Graham Mills:	Emerald are doing that
[09:09]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe, I don't think Kelly is a viewer developer.
[09:09]	Kelly Linden:	I am not.
[09:09]	Kelly Linden:	:)
[09:09]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	its not ui its the features
[09:09]	Kaluura Boa:	V2 always induces strong reactions...
[09:09]	Tammy Nowotny:	media on a prim is very haandy... too bad there is no way to havew that AND a veiwer which actually works as well as the old one
[09:09]	Kelly Linden:	I haven't worked on viewer code in 4+ years (back before we had viewer and server devs and everyone was just a dev.....)
[09:10]	Ardy Lay:	No point bashing Viewer 2 at this meeting then. Next topic please! :-)
[09:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ardy++
[09:10]	Chaley May:	the features was used to try sell us the new ui but didnt need to be exclusive to the 2.0 client
[09:10]	Sylar Heckroth:	no offense to viewer 2 it just wasnt for me
[09:10]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	btw ty kelly for the excellent pointers on http-in
[09:10]	Sylar Heckroth:	but yes moving on
[09:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	So what is Kelly now?
[09:10]	Latif Khalifa:	http-in is awesome :)
[09:10]	Kelly Linden:	Gaz glad you liked em, please feel free to expand the wiki pages if you can.
[09:11]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i ll do that in near future
[09:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	First of all, any news re the old Babbage stuff and the Uk team?
[09:11]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	working in something involving that and i ll need your help at times kelly
[09:11]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yes, HTTP-in FTW! LSLEditor now supports it. too.
[09:11]	Kelly Linden:	Nothing extremely exciting.
[09:11]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I know one contect creater use http-in for one HUD and managed to get to work across sim/tp.
[09:12]	Kaluura Boa:	Not that hard.. Just annoying
[09:12]	Ardy Lay:	Kelly, I find bug fixes, performance and stability exciting. Don't you?
[09:12]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	am working on something but i am limited by one thing and that is that the moap has no way t i support transparency
[09:12]	Kaluura Boa:	I'm still wondering why the key of the objects aren't used in the URL...
[09:12]	Kelly Linden:	On the pixie dust front, I mean. We are now working on finding the best way to upgrade the mono version we use to 2.4.x so we can address that performance issue.
[09:12]	Ardy Lay:	It may not rally a crowd but it is appreciated.
[09:12]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	Kaluura: That would be expliotable
[09:12]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	if it was possible to make a transoarency there it would take us in another direction altogether
[09:13]	Kelly Linden:	Kaluura: the urls are script based, and you can use more than one url per script.
[09:13]	Kaluura Boa:	It's as exploitable as flooding an object with emails to crash the script... Unlikely
[09:13]	Kelly Linden:	But besides that it is because we use the cap server as the appropriate intermediary / gateway between the world and the sim.
[09:13]	Kelly Linden:	And how the cap server works is unguessable urls.
[09:14]	Kaluura Boa:	Any way, it's too late now... It's carved in stone
[09:14]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	with sufficient resources we could hava an ajax server in world with http in
[09:14]	Kelly Linden:	We did not want to have to recreate yet another security nightmare.
[09:14]	Kelly Linden:	we have enough of those already. :)
[09:14]	Latif Khalifa:	;)
[09:15]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i agree kelly
[09:15]	Latif Khalifa:	so you are thinking of going to mono 2.4, and not 2.6 the scripting project was using?
[09:16]	Kelly Linden:	Sorry, I meant 2.6.x
[09:16]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	maybe there could be a differentiation on inworld execution and interweb execution of the httprequest
[09:16]	Kelly Linden:	(which was until this morning 2.6.4 and now may be 2.6.7)
[09:16]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	so no throttle inworld
[09:16]	Kelly Linden:	The throttles are set as high as possible
[09:16]	Kelly Linden:	not because of griefing but because of curl.
[09:17]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	ah ok
[09:17]	Kelly Linden:	curl will happily crash your process if you have too many in progress actions (handling requests or making requests)
[09:18]	Dale Glass:	how will it crash?
[09:18]	Kelly Linden:	The sim does a lot more than just http-in, but we set the throttles such that http-in could use roughly half the available ones at most.
[09:19]	Latif Khalifa	hasn't run in a situation where http-in throttle is an issue
[09:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Why curl?
[09:19]	Kelly Linden:	Tech, what do you mean?
[09:19]	Latif Khalifa:	http request is more likely to hit the problems with throttles
[09:19]	Dale Glass:	I mean, if curl has some limit, couldn't it be fixed?
[09:19]	Latif Khalifa:	stuff like translators break all the time with http request throttling
[09:20]	Kelly Linden:	dale: I think it is intended behavior - runs out of handlers and throws an exception. We just want to prevent hitting that case.
[09:21]	Dale Glass:	well, I mean, why does it run out of handlers? Is there an internal static limit? I figure there's no reason why it couldn't have a number only limited by resources (max threads or whatever)
[09:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I knew curl has some replacements to do whatever job curl is being used for. If curl is being used for DNS lookups, then anthere nslookup lib can be used.
[09:22]	Kelly Linden:	We use a diff dns lookup lib, sorry I don't recall the name.
[09:22]	Kelly Linden:	Dale: It isn't something I've had a lot of time to investigate, sorry.
[09:22]	Latif Khalifa:	c-ares
[09:22]	Kelly Linden:	what latif said.
[09:23]	Kelly Linden:	Dale: I just assumed curl was making reasonable choices with what it had to work with - it is pretty industry standard and widely used after all - and worked within its bounds.
[09:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The viewer folks had a top crasher trace to curl that took a while to figure out. Curl had to be build a spiefitic way.
[09:24]	Sylar Heckroth:	so kelly you work on the viewers?
[09:24]	Kelly Linden:	No Sylar. I work on the servers.
[09:24]	Sylar Heckroth:	ah ok
[09:25]	Kelly Linden:	Almost exclussively.
[09:25]	Kelly Linden:	I've worked on scripting and grid-scaling issues primarily.
[09:25]	Dale Glass:	Well, I figure I can take a look at it, and see if that limit could be removed. I always liked the maxim about the only good limits being 0, 1, and infinity
[09:26]	Kelly Linden:	Dale: let me know what you find.
[09:26]	Morgaine Dinova	perks up at "grid-scaling"
[09:26]	Kelly Linden:	Been a while Morgaine, stopped working on that early 2009.
[09:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-(
[09:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	What about sim scaling?
[09:27]	Kelly Linden:	There is a chance I could be working on that in the mid-term future
[09:27]	Sylar Heckroth:	so then you wouldnt know anything about mesh support just seems like there was alot of hype on it and then everything about it was gone from the wiki and no word about it since
[09:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	That would be cool, Kelly.
[09:28]	Kelly Linden:	I don't have official word on that Sylar. A lot of stuff is still kind of up in the air as we work to refocus after the org changes. damn that is a lot of pr speak. sorry.
[09:28]	Latif Khalifa:	we do need someone to maintain the script engine, and Kelly is the last man standing :)
[09:28]	Kelly Linden:	morgaine: I know at least 3 awesome devs are working on sim scaling right now, and have been for a while.
[09:29]	Sylar Heckroth:	lol so to be straightforward you cant say anything about it :P
[09:29]	Kelly Linden:	sylar: to be straight forward: I don't know anything about its status.
[09:29]	Loon AO:	Could not find animation 'PreJump1'
[09:29]	Loon AO:	Could not find animation 'PreJump1'.
[09:29]	Tammy Nowotny:	it probably depends in large part on which people are still there when the dust settles from the recent demolition
[09:29]	Sylar Heckroth:	ah ok just was wondering cuz im dying to have it in SL
[09:29]	Kelly Linden:	too busy with dealing with the pixie dust fall out
[09:29]	Liisa Runo:	Qarl Knows about meshes hut hes not allowed to tell us
[09:29]	Kelly Linden:	me too.
[09:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	4-5 years ago, I had a nice conversation with Philip on his original blog, and he accepted that the sim design is non-scalable for agents and anything else that's mobile, and he said he was getting his engineers to look at it. It never happened, unfortunately. Sim scalability is a lot less than it was back then on far inferior machinery.
[09:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, Andrew mentioned his team will be attacking sim performance issues as their main priority
[09:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: interesting, ta
[09:30]	Tammy Nowotny:	in the long run, 256m by 256m might be too small a size
[09:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not talking about scaling acreage, although that's another issue that matters too
[09:31]	Kelly Linden:	I was there 4-5 years ago, and there is some rose tinted glasses you are looking through if you think the sim scaling was better then. region cross and the sim-stall-on-agent-entry bugs not withstanding.
[09:31]	Liisa Runo:	¨some day the sim borders will become less noticeable and 256meter will not limit us so much anymore
[09:31]	Kelly Linden:	Yeah sim performance is extremely high on the priority list right now
[09:32]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	If you're not wearing anything scripted, sim crossings are amazing. I suspect when the mono bug fix happens, region crossings will improve drastically.
[09:32]	Kelly Linden:	neo it will help but probably not solve it.
[09:32]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew outlined 4 main areas of attack (sim smoothnes (fixing freezes), avatar density increase, faster rezzing by sending the viewer stuff it needs the most first, ... and forgot the 4th one) :P
[09:33]	Kaluura Boa:	Alzheimer... I don't remember either
[09:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: not rose-tinted at all! I was very active in the SL live music community, so we used to hit the end stop on regions every single day, many times a day. It was 75-80 per sim back then, and now it's 50 if you're lucky, on far better hardware. I even kept a regular log of progress (or regress) of region scalability on the old SL forums, very long-lived thread.
[09:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	SL regions technology has negative trend in scalability.
[09:33]	Sylar Heckroth:	sims that i go to prettty much still do freeze when people teleport in i dont know if you were talking about the sim freeze on entry bug in a past-tense
[09:33]	Liisa Runo:	borders are already lot better, i dont detach my MONO stuff anymore when traveling, and i get unseated once when traveling from one end of the continent to another
[09:33]	Kelly Linden:	better content, by which I mean, more scripted avatars, would be my first guess
[09:34]	Tammy Nowotny:	Emerald puts a lot more laod on the sim per avi than the other viewers; I know at least one venue which tried to ban it
[09:34]	Kelly Linden:	sylar I was not - it is very much still an issue
[09:34]	Sylar Heckroth:	ah ok : )
[09:34]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, I remember sim being able to handle more avatars, but yeah as Kelly says, it could be people are just using more :)
[09:34]	Latif Khalifa:	I know for certain most viewers have trouble coping with more than about 20-30 modern avatars
[09:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well sure, expectations rise. That's natural in technology. And despite expectations and usage rising, still everything improves. That's normal.
[09:35]	Latif Khalifa:	(i usually get about 40fps, here now 13fps with 20 avatars to render)
[09:35]	Moundsa Mayo:	40 to 45 FPS for me
[09:36]	Kelly Linden:	Well, thats where the disconnect is I think. We didn't do a good enough job scaling up simulator performance to match the increased usage as content, particularly avatar attachments, got more and more complex.
[09:36]	Kelly Linden:	But yes, sim performance is very high on the priority list.
[09:36]	Kaluura Boa:	Script limits should stop the inflation in attachments...
[09:36]	Latif Khalifa:	that's a good thing to hear :)
[09:36]	Motor Loon:	I have 1.3fps lol... but i am on a cheap netbook on a wifi network today
[09:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: that's coz your region technology is completely non-scalable. A given region cannot use more than one core.
[09:37]	Kelly Linden:	Kaluura: that is a good point. Script limits is another project that is still looking for a place on the roadmap.
[09:37]	Trendone Engineer:	hi Ama
[09:37]	Chaley May:	this is all wrong i think
[09:37]	Kelly Linden:	Morgaine: And that is not entirely true, and we are working to address that in some ways.
[09:37]	Chaley May:	you need to beencouraging people to wear more
[09:37]	Kelly Linden:	hi Trendone
[09:37]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	more scrips tp be worn?
[09:37]	Trendone Engineer:	:-)
[09:37]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	why?
[09:38]	Chaley May:	yes
[09:38]	Chaley May:	well i know it seems crazy but the majority of people in SL dont use land
[09:38]	Kelly Linden:	it may also seem crazy, but we kind of like people to use land.
[09:38]	Chaley May:	they contribute to the economy through what they wear
[09:38]	Qie Niangao:	lol
[09:38]	Latif Khalifa:	i would imagine hahaha
[09:38]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	around how many scripts will the limit be
[09:38]	Chaley May:	and the more they can use the more they spend
[09:39]	Kelly Linden:	Gazenfer the goal was to be memory based, and we haven't got around to determining good numbers.
[09:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: AFAIAA (from what's been said publicly), all your scaling efforts are directed at relieving sims from work that they shouldn't be handling, not at making the sims themselves scalable by design.
[09:39]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	some combat junkies have ther screen full of huds
[09:39]	Chaley May:	really rthe focus right now is on the land and the land owners are the ones actually paying so your avatar can exist in world
[09:39]	Chaley May:	maybe they need a way to have servers which handle a lot of the avatar
[09:40]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	and they ll need those huds
[09:40]	Kelly Linden:	Morgaine: most of the performance bottlenecks are from the sims doing work they probably shouldn't and algorithmic issues.
[09:40]	Kaluura Boa:	What about client side scripting?
[09:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: there is very little future in that approach. Once you've moved ancillary work out of the sim, you're stuck with the hard limit of what a single process can do.
[09:40]	Kaluura Boa:	It was in the pipeline sometimes earlier
[09:40]	Kelly Linden:	Kalurra: a viewer project I'm not really up to date on.
[09:40]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	well c# wiuld have increased performance too
[09:40]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	and in many many ways
[09:41]	Kelly Linden:	C# was also incredibly fun to use.
[09:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Kalurra, LL seems to be in maintance mode, I wouldn't expect any radical new projects ;)
[09:41]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	but thatgets thrown onto backburner
[09:41]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	and limits are out up
[09:41]	Kaluura Boa:	Me neither... I'm just daydreaming
[09:41]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	I dunno where to interject with this, so I will just put it on the table now. "Animated prims" really murder sim performance.
[09:41]	Kelly Linden:	I wonder if havok7 changes that for the better or worse neo
[09:42]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i would be happy with moap raycast for now
[09:42]	Kelly Linden:	the big performance hit on animated prims is updating havok.
[09:42]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	but c# i badly want
[09:42]	Trendone Engineer:	Kelly is it not true with the new coding and sim that not many real scrip programers will ever get close to them limits ?
[09:42]	Moundsa Mayo:	NeoBorg, do you think hierachical linksets would reduce that load?
[09:42]	sensory Hax:	stop
[09:42]	Sylar Heckroth:	i understand script limits and its benefit but how is it going to work charge land owners for more script usage? will landowners have enough scripts?
[09:42]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	They're not physical, I think it might just be a ton of object updates, viewer packets, etc.
[09:42]	Kelly Linden:	I don't understand the question trendone
[09:43]	Latif Khalifa:	hiearchical linksets would solve a lot of problems, including performance of animated prims
[09:43]	Kelly Linden:	neo: unless they are phantom (and not volume detect) then we still have to update havok.
[09:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I bet the music venues would love to be able to set avatar script limit to zero. Just think of being able to block anyone from tping into the venue earing any scripts. That would help a lot with the sim load.
[09:43]	Trendone Engineer:	well the good programers will have no problems staying under the new scropt limits right
[09:43]	Kelly Linden:	latif don't make me drool
[09:43]	Latif Khalifa:	haha
[09:43]	Tammy Nowotny:	except then, Techqof, the avis might not be able to dance
[09:43]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	its true kinematics would bring prims into their own
[09:43]	Tammy Nowotny:	*Techwolf
[09:43]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon did say it was doable without extreme effort
[09:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not a chance for hierarchical linking, now that pixie dust is shelved.
[09:43]	Kelly Linden:	trendone: we hope. The pause in pixie dust work might actually give me some more time to sneak in 'efficient scripts' improvements too. we will see.
[09:44]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah... And don't expect me to go anywhere without my AO...
[09:44]	Techwolf Lupindo:	There is client side AO out there now.
[09:44]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	but then how about obj too then
[09:44]	Trendone Engineer:	:-)
[09:44]	NeoBokrug Elytis:	I am curious, what happens server side when a linkset adjusts prim locations, rotations, etc.
[09:44]	Kelly Linden:	techwolf: we really aren't considering dynamic avatar script limits. They will be fairly fixed and standard across SL.
[09:44]	Kelly Linden:	neo: a lot.
[09:45]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	also will sculpt stitches be forever limited to just 4 options
[09:45]	Sylar Heckroth:	hah what happened to havok7 anyway i heard we were on havok7 for like 24 hours and then it was gone and we were back where we were
[09:45]	Kelly Linden:	but most is quick and trivial, except rebuilding the havok shape and re-adding it to the world.
[09:45]	Kelly Linden:	(my info here is from havok4 though, which I worked on, not havok7 which I haven't)
[09:45]	Latif Khalifa:	1.40 sim was rolled back, nothing to do with havok7 though... new milti-attachment functionality broke something so people started losing their attacments from the inventory
[09:46]	Kelly Linden:	Gaz: forever is a long time.
[09:46]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	hehe
[09:46]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	well its been long
[09:46]	Sylar Heckroth:	so we are on havok7 still?
[09:46]	Kelly Linden:	we are on havok4 right now
[09:46]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Estate manager need to be able to set the limits.
[09:46]	Ardy Lay:	Gaz, use "none" and the 33rd column and row to define your own stitching.
[09:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Background Wiki page on hierarchical linking, with links to various Jiras.
[09:46]	Sylar Heckroth:	so when is havok7 coming back lol
[09:46]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	with hierarchical linksets you ll need more stitches maybe like say more realistic shapes
[09:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Background Wiki page on hierarchical linking, with links to various Jiras -- http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Prim_and_Object_Hierarchy
[09:47]	Trendone Engineer:	seems a lot of them that had lost inventory was not even on viewer 2.1 at all but some other viewer make it happen too
[09:47]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i dint know that ardy does that mean the physics will be suited to the prim
[09:48]	Ardy Lay:	Gaz: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Ardy_Lay
[09:48]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	ty ty
[09:48]	Ardy Lay:	Short description on the 33rds
[09:49]	Ardy Lay:	Physic shape will follow somewhat in Havok 7
[09:49]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	now one thing id there was someway to have transparcy texture for like a window or something on a moap prim
[09:49]	Tammy Nowotny:	inventiry gets broken when you switch from one viewer to the other
[09:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	heh, just got a hit on the grid status. Secondlife.com unaviable.
[09:49]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon was really keen on bringing hiearchical linking, so ti might happen :)
[09:49]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	it would help a lot for websites dont understand transparncy and neither does the sheet on the moap face
[09:49]	Latif Khalifa:	execs permitting of course ;)
[09:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The inventoy loss was happing on all viewers.
[09:50]	Trendone Engineer:	when the new mesh system gets put in place will any of the old sculpty tools for sl even matter any more ?
[09:51]	Sylar Heckroth:	i was told we need havok7 to even get mesh support
[09:51]	Ardy Lay:	Trendone, sure will .. Keep using them. Sculpties will not be denied!!!
[09:51]	Tammy Nowotny:	speaking of moap: I find that Google Analytics doesnt work mwith moap if you put the code in the body of the HTML, but if you use the newer code which goes in the header, Amalytics works
[09:51]	Sylar Heckroth:	thats why im wondering when havok7 is coming back
[09:51]	Tammy Nowotny	relaizes that was an offtopic remark, being more of a viewer issue
[09:52]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	when is the new mesh system coming
[09:52]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	any foreseeable future
[09:52]	Kelly Linden:	Not before havok7. ;)
[09:52]	Sylar Heckroth:	gaz i already asked that
[09:52]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	ahhhhhhhhhh
[09:52]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i didnt know
[09:52]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	si all my sculpts going to trash bin
[09:52]	Kaluura Boa:	Meshes... NDA... Don't ask...
[09:52]	Sylar Heckroth:	kelly doesnt know much about it that and its a touchy subject because im sure they were all told not to say anything about it
[09:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Meshies will be available only in Viewer 2.0 <grin>
[09:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Meshies will be available only in Viewer 3.0 <grin>
[09:53]	Latif Khalifa:	no Linden will tell you the date, until it appears as on official announcement on the blog, asking doesn't help :P
[09:53]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	will sculpts be loke total obsollet then
[09:53]	Sylar Heckroth:	that's find i swear i will happily switch to viewer 2.0 for meshes
[09:53]	Ardy Lay:	Viewer++?
[09:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nothing like a typo to ruin a joke ;-)
[09:53]	Latif Khalifa:	;)
[09:53]	Tammy Nowotny:	they may not know the date yet
[09:53]	Moundsa Mayo:	I always wonder what our Lindens are hollering back and forth to each other during these Office Hours B^D
[09:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lot of groaning I bet :-)
[09:54]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i do too moundsa
[09:54]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	hehe
[09:54]	Sylar Heckroth:	sculpts will probably be obsolete just like sculpties made prims almost unused hehe but people will still use them and im sure they will always be an option
[09:54]	Kelly Linden:	6 minutes left, any last minute topics?
[09:54]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	someway to have transparcy texture for like a window or something on a moap prim
[09:54]	Kelly Linden:	Moundsa: I'm in a small office. It is extremely quiet in here right now.
[09:54]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	?
[09:54]	Moundsa Mayo:	B^)
[09:54]	Kelly Linden:	Gaz: I wouldn't even know where to start on that.
[09:55]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	i could show u what i am working on
[09:55]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	when u have time
[09:55]	Qie Niangao:	Kelly, is there any timeframe for getting the priority-list of projects and dev timeline established? I'd kind of expected a blog post by now with what was "in" and what was "on hold"
[09:55]	Sylar Heckroth:	so kelly you cant say anything about when havok7 is coming back? cuz im getting mesh withdrawals (scratches neck)
[09:55]	Latif Khalifa:	Gaz, Kelly doesn't work on viewer
[09:55]	Kelly Linden:	MOAP is a viewer issue, sorry Gaz. I just don't work on it.
[09:55]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	its relted to http in
[09:56]	Kelly Linden:	Sylar: as soon as humanly possible. We really want to get 1.40 shipped.
[09:56]	Moundsa Mayo:	Will implementation of meshes lead to the possiblity of subtractive prim geometry - like off-center Hollow, etc.?
[09:56]	Sylar Heckroth:	YAY! (yay!)
[09:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: others like Falcon and Nyx are thinking about the viewer side of Hierarchical Linking, but are you interested in the server side of the subject?
[09:56]	Latif Khalifa:	Sylar, Andrew Linden's OH was talking about that topic. 1.40 (and havok7) is coming back when the bugs causing inventory loss are squished
[09:56]	Kelly Linden:	Falcon is probably thinking about server side, as is Andrew.
[09:56]	Sylar Heckroth:	how fast a human are we talking olympic runner or fat man
[09:56]	Kelly Linden:	I hear they have some neat ideas, but I haven't heard them.
[09:56]	Sylar Heckroth:	oh ok
[09:56]	Trendone Engineer:	yes he is
[09:57]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, Falcon is the havok whisperere, and he was very keen on getting hiearchical objects in :)
[09:57]	Tammy Nowotny:	was inventory literally getting lost, or was it just because of slow loading or corrupted indexes?
[09:57]	Opensource Obscure:	Moundsa: I think you can do that even with a 'simple' external 3D software like google Sketchup. then import the collada model.
[09:57]	Kelly Linden:	it was getting lost
[09:57]	Trendone Engineer:	Server side will help fix a lot of old problems and bugs
[09:57]	Kelly Linden:	asset_ids were getting nulled.
[09:57]	Tammy Nowotny:	yikes, that's no fun
[09:57]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thx, Opensource
[09:58]	Tammy Nowotny:	how long do you keep backups for when this happens?
[09:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: do you think there is some kind of tentative design? Hierarchical linking is so fundamental that you don't "just put it in" :-)
[09:58]	Ardy Lay:	Kelly, I didn't loose links to assets. I just had attachments lose attachment point, position and rotation data.
[09:58]	Opensource Obscure:	Kelly, what about the European datacenter? i guess it won't happen .. how much would have it helped?
[09:58]	Kelly Linden:	Ardy, great.
[09:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, I know Falcom being former Havok employee probably has a very good idea on how to do it :)
[09:59]	Moundsa Mayo:	And will H-Linking just be for animation/physics first, or all object parameters, including permissions and creatorship B^)
[09:59]	Kelly Linden:	OO: Unless I misunderstand the question: none?
[09:59]	Trendone Engineer:	All i had happen was when they did the roll back all my folders from W to Z ended up in the trash
[09:59]	Latif Khalifa:	(and he claims havok style hiearchical objects should be relatevely easy to implement in the simulator)
[09:59]	Moundsa Mayo:	Two very different levels of implementation complexity.
[09:59]	Opensource Obscure:	sorry it was .. worded .. bad -nevermind
[10:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: the physics side of hierarchies is only one aspect. Havok probably hasn't been looking at the object composition side of it, just the physics.
[10:00]	Kelly Linden:	Falcon is still relatively new to SL code base, and havok has always innately supported hierarchy - that isn't the real trick. The legacy SL codebase is. Falcon is a little optimistic too.
[10:00]	Latif Khalifa:	hehehe
[10:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye :-)
[10:01]	Latif Khalifa:	he is very energetic :) not a bad thing if properly managed :)
[10:01]	Kelly Linden:	There is even an entire LSL side to think about.
[10:01]	Qie Niangao:	indeed
[10:01]	Trendone Engineer:	yes but Falcon has done so many great things for a new linden
[10:01]	Kelly Linden:	which, to my knowledge, they haven't yet. :D
[10:01]	Moundsa Mayo:	Heh - yah, Link Number becomes complicated ...
[10:02]	Moundsa Mayo:	Will need Joint Number or such
[10:02]	Ardy Lay:	Link numbers may end up looking like SNMP OIDS!!! Oh my!
[10:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	He also minimizes problems like the impact of a binary Havok blob for the client, which came up once in the OH. <horrors>
[10:02]	Moundsa Mayo:	XML DOM B^D
[10:02]	Trendone Engineer:	And Kelly you are by far the best scripter in second life that i know of
[10:03]	Kelly Linden:	well, if you have heirachy you have different roots as well (to walk up the chain) so how do we handle that right for things that pass events up to the parent?
[10:03]	Kelly Linden:	Trendone: luckily I am *not* the best scripter I know.
[10:03]	Kelly Linden:	Ok, we are over time for today.
[10:04]	Moundsa Mayo:	Joints own flags to control those behaviors
[10:04]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks for the meeting, Kelly. see you !
[10:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kelly: two alternatives, as I noted in the "Implementation notes" on that wiki page I linked.
[10:04]	Qie Niangao:	thanks, Kelly! Monday, next ?
[10:04]	Opensource Obscure:	bye everybody
[10:04]	Kelly Linden:	It was good talking with everyone. I'm gonna update the wiki at least, maybe the calendar, for Monday next week.
[10:04]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thanks, Kelly!
[10:04]	Gazanfer Jehangir:	cya kelly
[10:04]	Saikiki Moriguchi:	ty
[10:04]	Kaluura Boa:	TC
[10:04]	Sylar Heckroth:	thx kelly
[10:04]	Trendone Engineer:	thank you for your time Kelly :-)
[10:04]	Tammy Nowotny:	lots of build combine phantom & physical objects: it wd be nice to link them, but that might infeasible
[10:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cheers Kelly, have fun :-)
[10:04]	Kelly Linden:	o/

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