Open Source Meeting/2008-12-04

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Agenda

(no posted agenda)


Minutes

  • [2008/12/04 13:57] Rob Linden: hi folks
  • [2008/12/04 13:57] Khyota Wulluf: robs face was black too!
  • [2008/12/04 13:57] Robin Cornelius: Hey Rob
  • [2008/12/04 13:58] Khyota Wulluf: HI Rob!
  • [2008/12/04 13:58] Soft Linden: Heyyyyy hey
  • [2008/12/04 13:58] Carjay McGinnis: greetings Rob, Soft
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Khyota Wulluf: yay
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Carjay McGinnis: Soft, why are commits for trunk constantly removing/adding glh_linear?
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Carjay McGinnis: is that a Linden game? *h*
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Thickbrick Sleaford: hello everybody
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Soft Linden: It's great fun!
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Soft Linden: We were in tranition between two systems for updating source drops. One may have a local edit that needs to get checked in for the assemblies.
  • [2008/12/04 13:59] Amorphis Iuga: Hello everyvone
  • [2008/12/04 14:00] Catrina Ebbage: hey hey :)
  • [2008/12/04 14:00] Carjay McGinnis: assemblies?
  • [2008/12/04 14:00] Rob Linden: I'll be posting the transcript on wiki.secondlife.com, so bear that in mind when you type
  • [2008/12/04 14:00] Soft Linden: The assemblies are manifests of what files go into each of the source/library/art tarballs or the svn checkin
  • [2008/12/04 14:01] Carjay McGinnis: ah, ok
  • [2008/12/04 14:01] Rob Linden: the assemblies are our workaround for the fact that our source tree doesn't break up simulator, viewer, and common code all that well.
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Carjay McGinnis: so there will only be the automated drops at some point?
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Rob Linden: presumably....it's going to be a slow transition
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Carjay McGinnis: I like the fact they contain the commit messages
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Khyota Wulluf: oh yeah! speaking of art tarballs, i found the cursors are in the SDL package which is why they are missing in standalone builds
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Carjay McGinnis: gives you a much better idea of what was changed
  • [2008/12/04 14:02] Soft Linden: Unfortunately, those are going to go away in the interim. Hopefully in the long term they remain.
  • [2008/12/04 14:03] Soft Linden: If that isn't already - would you capture that on the JIRA, Khyota?
  • [2008/12/04 14:03] Carjay McGinnis: hm, ok
  • [2008/12/04 14:03] Khyota Wulluf: yes ive updated it
  • [2008/12/04 14:03] Soft Linden: thumbsup!
  • [2008/12/04 14:04] Soft Linden: Agendaless!
  • [2008/12/04 14:04] Rob Linden: yup
  • [2008/12/04 14:04] Rob Linden: anyone got anything they want to bring up now?
  • [2008/12/04 14:04] Soft Linden: I believe this means we set out the tip jars and the Lindens dance. For Lindens.
  • [2008/12/04 14:05] Rob Linden: awesome
  • [2008/12/04 14:05] Khyota Wulluf: i had some things in mind actually, did FMOD allow multichannel audio?
  • [2008/12/04 14:06] Soft Linden: Yes, although I don't believe we use stereo samples anywhere in the viewer.
  • [2008/12/04 14:06] Soft Linden: There's stereo placement, but I don't know of any multichannel source stuff, streaming aside.
  • [2008/12/04 14:06] Q Linden: media streams can be in stereo
  • [2008/12/04 14:06] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, just mono audio sources I think
  • [2008/12/04 14:06] Soft Linden: Why do you ask?
  • [2008/12/04 14:07] Khyota Wulluf: well, im talking 7.1 3D positional
  • [2008/12/04 14:07] Carjay McGinnis: the sources are 3D
  • [2008/12/04 14:07] Khyota Wulluf: i noticed OpenAL-soft supports that
  • [2008/12/04 14:07] Soft Linden: Looking, the current version of fmod does 5.1 and 7.1 - I don't know about the older version we're on.
  • [2008/12/04 14:07] Soft Linden: If we did something as fundamental as adding that, I'm sure we'd upgrade to the newest fmod first, though.
  • [2008/12/04 14:08] Carjay McGinnis: what does 7.1 mean here?
  • [2008/12/04 14:08] Khyota Wulluf: so OpenAL wont completely replace it then? it will just be optional?
  • [2008/12/04 14:08] Soft Linden: Seven mid- and high-range speakers, and a subwoofer.
  • [2008/12/04 14:08] Khyota Wulluf: yes
  • [2008/12/04 14:09] Soft Linden: Initially at least, openal will only be for Linux. If we get our wish, we'll replace fmod on the other platforms after fmod has baked a while on Linux.
  • [2008/12/04 14:09] Carjay McGinnis: well, that's the samples itself, not the 3D position, is it?
  • [2008/12/04 14:09] Soft Linden: Even on Linux though, both fmod and openal are present.
  • [2008/12/04 14:09] Soft Linden: I mean after openal has baked a while on Linux
  • [2008/12/04 14:10] Carjay McGinnis: but not looked at FMOD for a while
  • [2008/12/04 14:10] Soft Linden: openal has hit trunk/, and will be part of the 1.23 viewer if any didn't know.
  • [2008/12/04 14:11] Rob Linden: Soft: I don't recall, what was the reason for keeping both around? (mp3 streaming?)
  • [2008/12/04 14:11] Khyota Wulluf: (i added that as VWR-10889)
  • [2008/12/04 14:11] Soft Linden: I don't know if the streaming's been moved off of it yet. But there was also just hedging bets. fmod is there as a fallback if openal can't successfully bring up sound on a given machine.
  • [2008/12/04 14:12] Soft Linden: Similar to how it falls back on esound, raw /dev/dsp, etc right now.
  • [2008/12/04 14:12] Rob Linden: ah, that's kinda nifty, actually
  • [2008/12/04 14:12] Rob Linden: didn't realize that was the design
  • [2008/12/04 14:12] Carjay McGinnis: pc speaker?
  • [2008/12/04 14:13] Soft Linden: Unfortunately, I don't think we're doing anything to discover if it's falling back. That's something we should probably add to viewer stats - which sound engine's in use.
  • [2008/12/04 14:13] Carjay McGinnis: in case no soundcard is present :)
  • [2008/12/04 14:13] Rob Linden: Carjay's comment reminds me of the first audio program I heard for Apple ][+
  • [2008/12/04 14:13] Soft Linden: Mmmm. RealSound. :)
  • [2008/12/04 14:13] Khyota Wulluf: laughs
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Rob Linden: it was a 10 second sample of Led Zepplin's "Black Dog" at some ridiculously low hz
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Soft Linden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealSound - for the historically curious.
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Aimee Trescothick: first audio programming I ever did was making dot matrix printers play the star wars theme :P
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Carjay McGinnis: ah, yeah, didn't one of the Linden use a floppy drive as "sound card"?
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Rob Linden: it sounded like it was on a blown out drive-through speaker
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, Aimee!
  • [2008/12/04 14:14] Aimee Trescothick: well, programming is a bit strong lol
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Soft Linden: There were hacks for the C64 and Apple ][ that played music by playing with the step motor timing on the floppy drive. Both also had a tendency to screw up drive alignment. They don't like being banged against the end stops repeatedly.
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Khyota Wulluf: wow
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Rob Linden: anyway....sounds like you're talked out on the Second Life relevant audio bits
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Q Linden: Well, when I was growing up we used to play the drums with pencils, and we LIKED it.
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Soft Linden: Ha!
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Rob Linden: I wanted to bring up something that came up in our weekly patch triage
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Aimee Trescothick: would be nice to have occulsion of sounds
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Rob Linden: check out VWR-2681
  • [2008/12/04 14:15] Carjay McGinnis: indeed, the 1541 was notorious for that
  • [2008/12/04 14:16] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2681
  • [2008/12/04 14:16] Soft Linden: Aimee - ask about soundproof textures on Builders of Second Life group chat.
  • [2008/12/04 14:16] Aimee Trescothick: LOL
  • [2008/12/04 14:16] Carjay McGinnis: FMOD has a HRTF
  • [2008/12/04 14:16] Aimee Trescothick: FMOD has geometry based occulsion in v4, not sure about 3.75
  • [2008/12/04 14:17] Carjay McGinnis: ah right, 3.75 is quite old by now
  • [2008/12/04 14:17] Rob Linden: does OpenAL have geometry based occlusion?
  • [2008/12/04 14:17] Soft Linden: Never heard of anything like that
  • [2008/12/04 14:17] Khyota Wulluf: hmm, wouldnt VWR-2681relate to tab completion of avatar names?
  • [2008/12/04 14:18] Q Linden: we just need second-order physics-based reflection of sounds.
  • [2008/12/04 14:18] Aimee Trescothick:  :) now that I would love
  • [2008/12/04 14:18] Khyota Wulluf: wow didnt think we were serious about that, thought it was a joke
  • [2008/12/04 14:18] Rob Linden: switches back to audio discussion since folks weren't as done as I thought
  • [2008/12/04 14:18] Carjay McGinnis: isn't that just a simple convolution?
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Aimee Trescothick: wrote an acoustic raytracer in java a few months back
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Carjay McGinnis: I'm not into audio much, more into video
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Q Linden: sings: "You say you want a convolutiooon, well, you know...we all wanna change the (virtual) world..."
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Carjay McGinnis: ah, I read a paper about doing that on the GPU a couple of years ago
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
  • [2008/12/04 14:19] Aimee Trescothick: mm, was my final project for a sound engineering course
  • [2008/12/04 14:20] Carjay McGinnis: sounds cool
  • [2008/12/04 14:20] Khyota Wulluf: too bad we dont have the source code to the real world
  • [2008/12/04 14:20] Rob Linden: is concerned about the security holes in the real world's source code
  • [2008/12/04 14:20] Khyota Wulluf: laughs :D
  • [2008/12/04 14:21] Robin Cornelius: Glitches in the matrix
  • [2008/12/04 14:21] Robin Cornelius: ssh-nuke?
  • [2008/12/04 14:21] Rob Linden: are we ready to move onto the next topic?
  • [2008/12/04 14:22] Soft Linden: Looks like occlusion is only available as proprietary Creative Labs extensions for openal.
  • [2008/12/04 14:22] Aimee Trescothick: ah right, part of EAX
  • [2008/12/04 14:22] Khyota Wulluf: (wow michelle my brothers are watchin the matrix in the other room right now!)
  • [2008/12/04 14:22] Soft Linden: Yup, EAX.
  • [2008/12/04 14:23] Soft Linden: Ha - more and more it looks like the primary drive behind openal is to enable the nvidia approach to GL in the audio realm.
  • [2008/12/04 14:24] Carjay McGinnis: oh dear
  • [2008/12/04 14:24] Soft Linden: Where the next version of GL is pretty much defined as whatever nvidia gets a lot of people to use. Shader extensions aside.
  • [2008/12/04 14:24] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, that was what's behind it
  • [2008/12/04 14:25] Rob Linden: it's interesting that Microsoft is planning to move a bunch of 3D stuff to the CPU for Windows 7 as a fallback
  • [2008/12/04 14:25] Rob Linden: I'm assuming because they didn't like being hostage to the drivers
  • [2008/12/04 14:26] Rob Linden: anyway, let's move on:
  • [2008/12/04 14:26] Rob Linden: /VWR-2681 - "Populate the Resident Chooser list with avatars within chat distance"
  • [2008/12/04 14:26] Rob Linden: there's a patch attached to that issue
  • [2008/12/04 14:26] Rob Linden: and we love the feature
  • [2008/12/04 14:27] Rob Linden: but it's gotten out of date
  • [2008/12/04 14:27] Rob Linden: ...and we're hoping that some enterprising contributor would do a little work to bring it up to date
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Carjay McGinnis: well, I can take a look
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Khyota Wulluf: yay
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Soft Linden: That would be pretty cool
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Rob Linden: hoorah!
  • [2008/12/04 14:28] Soft Linden: I think the bulk of what's changed in that area should be skinning changing the UI filename, and then cstring to std::string migration
  • [2008/12/04 14:29] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, think so, too
  • [2008/12/04 14:30] Rob Linden: more generally, it'd be good if we had a streamlined process for signalling when we're hoping to get help on updating patches
  • [2008/12/04 14:30] Rob Linden: that might be a custom field in JIRA, or a wiki page, or periodic mails to sldev....
  • [2008/12/04 14:31] Soft Linden: And similarly, if that carried a commitment on our part to get it in the door once it's current. :) It might be worth a Linden assigning it to his or her self externally, then putting an ask on sldev?
  • [2008/12/04 14:31] Rob Linden: we'd like to keep from asking for updating patches that are low priority and likely to languish longer, so it's a tricky balance
  • [2008/12/04 14:31] Carjay McGinnis: yes, that would be great
  • [2008/12/04 14:32] Carjay McGinnis: I think this has been requested before by some people here, too
  • [2008/12/04 14:32] Rob Linden: we've gotten a lot better about staying on top of the queue, so the odds of that situation coming up are lower than they used to be
  • [2008/12/04 14:33] Rob Linden: any thoughts on the best mechanism?
  • [2008/12/04 14:33] Soft Linden: Shoudl be sufficient for a Linden to own the issue before asking for the update.
  • [2008/12/04 14:34] Robin Cornelius: sldev pinging is always IMHO the best even if that points to somewhere else
  • [2008/12/04 14:35] Rob Linden: ok, I think that makes sense
  • [2008/12/04 14:35] Robin Cornelius: if a contributor is going to grab the issue is just a comment enough? don't want to waste time duplicating effort
  • [2008/12/04 14:35] Rob Linden: we'll figure out how that translates into process for us, but I'm starting to see how we can make that a habit
  • [2008/12/04 14:35] Soft Linden: A comment on the JIRA would be a good idea, as well as a reply to the sldev ask
  • [2008/12/04 14:36] Soft Linden: At the very least, a reply on sldev though it it was just asked for there
  • [2008/12/04 14:36] Robin Cornelius: an IRC ping never hurts either
  • [2008/12/04 14:37] Carjay McGinnis: IRC is always good, yeah :)
  • [2008/12/04 14:37] Rob Linden: good point
  • [2008/12/04 14:37] Robin Cornelius: IRC is a little underused, mainly its the people present
  • [2008/12/04 14:38] Robin Cornelius: but is very productive
  • [2008/12/04 14:38] Rob Linden: yeah, as you've probably noticed, I've been making a little more of a point to pay attention there, but I could do more there
  • [2008/12/04 14:39] Rob Linden: the conversations there have been very useful lately
  • [2008/12/04 14:39] Khyota Wulluf: grins
  • [2008/12/04 14:39] Robin Cornelius: i run a idler on all the SL channels on efnet worth keeping an eye on stuff
  • [2008/12/04 14:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: how many channels are there?
  • [2008/12/04 14:40] Rob Linden: Thickbrick: just one
  • [2008/12/04 14:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: ah
  • [2008/12/04 14:41] Rob Linden: er...one that's directly about this group
  • [2008/12/04 14:41] Robin Cornelius: there are others that are related to SL tech
  • [2008/12/04 14:41] Robin Cornelius: enus and qarl are usualy hanging in those
  • [2008/12/04 14:41] Rob Linden: when I refer to "the IRC channel", I'm generally talking about irc.efnet.org #opensl
  • [2008/12/04 14:42] Robin Cornelius: yes #opensl is the opensource development for the viewer that is related to this office hour and sldev ;-)
  • [2008/12/04 14:42] Rob Linden: speaking of conversations on IRC
  • [2008/12/04 14:43] Rob Linden: Khyota's raising of the keyboard shortcut issue got me thinking about a more general issue
  • [2008/12/04 14:43] Soft Linden: (The rebake issue)
  • [2008/12/04 14:43] Khyota Wulluf: make shortcuts cutomizable?
  • [2008/12/04 14:43] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6093
  • [2008/12/04 14:44] Rob Linden: I've got a very very rough draft of a more general "keyboard navigation issues" page here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Keyboard_navigation_issues
  • [2008/12/04 14:44] Rob Linden: the plan is to fix the formatting...
  • [2008/12/04 14:44] Rob Linden: ...then reorganize it by platform...
  • [2008/12/04 14:45] Rob Linden: ...then have a more general discussion about the caveats and strategies on a per-platform basis ....
  • [2008/12/04 14:45] Rob Linden: the thing that sent me down that path is this:
  • [2008/12/04 14:46] Rob Linden: I'm worried that having "ctrl-alt-x" for one thing and "alt-shift-y" for something else to weave through the per platform conflicts is a losing strategy
  • [2008/12/04 14:47] Soft Linden: We should have a central list like that. But we should also be registering shortcuts on the platforms that support it. OS X and Linux/KDE and Linux/Gnome at least allow apps to claim shortcuts, which will prevent global overrides.
  • [2008/12/04 14:47] Rob Linden: so, in addition to bundling the patches, keyboard shortcut changes need to be viewed through a wider angle lens
  • [2008/12/04 14:47] Soft Linden: No clue if Windows has a similar mechanim
  • [2008/12/04 14:47] Soft Linden: mechanism
  • [2008/12/04 14:48] Soft Linden: If there's anyone who's an expert on that, it would be great to know
  • [2008/12/04 14:50] Carjay McGinnis: hm, unfortunately not
  • [2008/12/04 14:51] Rob Linden: Khyota: is this an area you'd be willing to do a little research in? where research = hunting down a mailing list that's likely to have experts, and starting a conversation there?
  • [2008/12/04 14:52] Khyota Wulluf: i could possibly
  • [2008/12/04 14:52] Rob Linden: or does that sound like more work than you were banking on to get the rebake shortcut fixed? :)
  • [2008/12/04 14:52] Khyota Wulluf: we could disscuss that more in IRC
  • [2008/12/04 14:52] Rob Linden: sure
  • [2008/12/04 14:53] Rob Linden: anyway....we've spent a lot of time on that. that was intended more than anything as a heads up that keyboard shortcut changes are probably going to get redirected to that process for a little while
  • [2008/12/04 14:53] Rob Linden: anything else people wanted to talk about?
  • [2008/12/04 14:54] Khyota Wulluf: hmm
  • [2008/12/04 14:54] Rob Linden: going once....
  • [2008/12/04 14:54] Khyota Wulluf: resizing the window..
  • [2008/12/04 14:54] Khyota Wulluf: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10890
  • [2008/12/04 14:55] Khyota Wulluf: sometimes its helpfull to get an exact custom resolustion
  • [2008/12/04 14:55] Soft Linden: That should have gotten the 'Patch attached" flag set
  • [2008/12/04 14:56] Rob Linden: yup, Soft beat me to that comment....easy to miss
  • [2008/12/04 14:56] Soft Linden: tweaks
  • [2008/12/04 14:56] Khyota Wulluf: i used to be able to do it by watching the debug console for the resize res but its flooded with shader info now
  • [2008/12/04 14:56] Khyota Wulluf: the patch doesnt make this work though, it only allows the usual resolutions
  • [2008/12/04 14:56] Khyota Wulluf: and VWR-9257 isnt fixed yet
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Soft Linden: Internally, I see that sitting in the maint-viewer work pile, but at mall priority
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Soft Linden: If someone offers up a patch it would probably happen sooner
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Rob Linden: hmmmm....maybe we should ping Tofu about that one for opinions
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Soft Linden: small prioirty
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Soft Linden: still getting used to a new keyboard - bagh
  • [2008/12/04 14:58] Khyota Wulluf: http://pastebin.com/d55d4e68f
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Aimee Trescothick: takes Soft's keyboard, turns it round and hands it back the right way up
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Rob Linden: Soft is right, though....patch would help here
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Khyota Wulluf: 2008-12-04T22:5makes it hard to watch for RESIZED SCREEN TEXTURE: 761x523 and so
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Rob Linden: well, we're running out of time here
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Khyota Wulluf: D:
  • [2008/12/04 14:59] Robin Cornelius: Khyota pipe log into grep
  • [2008/12/04 15:00] Rob Linden: Khyota: VWR-9257 is worth a ping to sldev@, I think
  • [2008/12/04 15:00] Rob Linden: (if it's particularly annoying to you)
  • [2008/12/04 15:00] Soft Linden: A patch to remove all that debug spam just might fly as well. I expect that went in back when shader recompilation still crashed frequently.
  • [2008/12/04 15:00] Khyota Wulluf: yeah ill do that then but i think i need more info
  • [2008/12/04 15:01] Carjay McGinnis: ah, that's why it's in there
  • [2008/12/04 15:01] Soft Linden: Or at the very least, maybe the recompilation spam could be isolated to the first init. Add a static flag so it doesn't spam on subsequent entry.
  • [2008/12/04 15:02] Robin Cornelius: Argg local chat does not auto scroll in RC1
  • [2008/12/04 15:02] Rob Linden: really?
  • [2008/12/04 15:02] Robin Cornelius: is the RC2 tar ball out yet?
  • [2008/12/04 15:02] Rob Linden: yeah
  • [2008/12/04 15:02] Soft Linden: Yes.
  • [2008/12/04 15:03] Soft Linden: I uploaded it yesterday, but don't think I actually added the wiki link until this AM.
  • [2008/12/04 15:03] Khyota Wulluf: oh i noticetd that too
  • [2008/12/04 15:03] Robin Cornelius: cool, i'm buidling my omviewer builds off tarballs, so was waiting for that
  • [2008/12/04 15:03] Khyota Wulluf: (autoscroll, but didnt remember if it ever did
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Rob Linden: gotta run now. thanks everyone for coming!
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Soft Linden: The autoscroll behavior has definitely changed for the worse. I know the RC wranglers already know about it.
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Robin Cornelius: Thanks
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Khyota Wulluf: thanks everyone!
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Aimee Trescothick:  :)
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Carjay McGinnis: thanks :)
  • [2008/12/04 15:04] Khyota Wulluf: Aimee, ever get to that space nav thing?
  • [2008/12/04 15:05] Aimee Trescothick: which space nav thing? oooh, that, toggle fly thing? oops
  • [2008/12/04 15:05] Rob Linden: bye all!
  • [2008/12/04 15:05] Aimee Trescothick: been a bit busy, but will try and have a look
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