Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

13:00	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	howdy oz
	Robin Cornelius	wavwa
	Yuzuru	Hello Oz.
	Office Orb	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
		Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
		Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
13:01	Ash's Zidonuke	heya all
13:02	Oz Linden	good turnout today... welcome all
	Cummere Mayo	hey oz
	JayR Cela	:_)
	draconis.neurocam	heya oz
13:03	Oz Linden	first item on the agena is the upcoming Autobuild/VS2010 work....
		I just this moment sent a note to the mailing list... https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2011-February/005966.html
13:04	Kadah	In Voice?
	Oz Linden	I'll be following that up with pointers to other repos to track
		I've been doing this meeting in chat....
	Ash's Zidonuke	Yeah o.o
	Oz Linden	but can hear voice :-0
13:05	Kadah	kk, Voice doesn't work well for me now anyway
	Oz Linden	So... not much more to say than what's in the email, but read it and send questions
		if you are interested in helping with any of that let me know
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	anything we can do to help out?
	Ash's Zidonuke	is reading
	Oz Linden	testing Express, if you use it
13:06		If you already have changes to support 2010 in any of the packages we build, please drop me a note with pointers
	Kadah	I have express on my win7 machine, but I was planning on nuking that comp
	Jonathan	Will there be an autobuild configured to use vs2010 and some instructions on what to put on the command line?
	Oz Linden	preferably to public hg repos
13:07		yes... there's a repo with that now, but I'm going to fork it and send a pointer to my fork
	draconis.neurocam	will building the client without autobuild in the old way still be supported with the 2010 changes?
	Oz Linden	since that's the one I'll be merging into
		no
13:08		autobuild is going to be the one true way :-)
	Ash's Zidonuke	Eeep
	draconis.neurocam	i see
	Oz Linden	see the end of my email... if there are other ways you want to build, feel free
	Kadah	Will CG's buildscripts be updated for autobuild?
	Oz Linden	if they don't break our way, we may even take changes to support them
13:09		they already have been
	Kadah	Yay.
	Latif Khalifa	develop.py has the advantage of making the build easier on machines with more than one VS installed without having to play with env vars
	Oz Linden	so ... life will probably be a bit more unstable than usual next week
13:10	Latif Khalifa	hopefully autobuiild can gain that feature too
	Oz Linden	The only way it's likely to gain that feature is, unfortunatley, if an open dev contributes it
		but I'll be happy to sponsor a well thought-out solution
	Tonya Souther	or perhaps a separate autobuild environment setup script? that would be simple enough.
13:11	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	another layer of abstraction? dunno
	Oz Linden	all LIndens have the same tools, so there's not much motivation in-house to do that work
	Latif Khalifa	so everybody who uses visual studio gets updated 2005 -> 2010 on the same day?
13:12	Oz Linden	doing an alternative configuration works, but because of the way it's organized, that will be an ongoing chore
		well, in the same week or two, yeah
	draconis.neurocam	that sounds amazing, and scary at the same time
	Oz Linden	you don't need to be up to the same tools until you're ready to merge
13:13		yes, a bit
	Kadah	The viewer should at least be a bit faster being compiled under 2010, I noticed a gain from 2005 to 2008 back with v1.2x
	Oz Linden	we'll see
	Latif Khalifa	good luck with the installer and c runtime
	Oz Linden	anyway... on to next item....
	Noa Arrowsong	hello everyone ㋡
	Jonathan	Say "me" if you are an Express user
	Liny Odell	the runtime i dont think will be much of a problem now, there is only one version of it sho far
13:14	draconis.neurocam	me
	Oz Linden	I have been too swamped to merge the temp fix for VWR-24487, but I'll do that ASAP
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24487 VWR-24487 llurlentry_stub.cpp:196: error: deprecated conversion from string constant to 'char*'
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	hi noa ;)
	Noa Arrowsong	tank °͜°
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ok
	Thickbrick Sleaford	hopes it's not too much to ask LL to also move from GCC 4.1 to 4.5 while they're at it...
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	don't forget it'll have to be reverted before merging the real fix
	Tonya Souther	Thichbrick, note that OS X is still on gcc 4.2.
	Oz Linden	the real fix is getting the server team to give us new versions, properly updated for the const change whenever they change the template
13:15		We're not going to change the tooling on other platoforms at the same time, but those are _much_ easier than changing windows
	Liny Odell	tonya, at least for .5, be glad .4 is droped
		XD
	Tonya Souther	mrf.
13:16	Oz Linden	#3 on the agenda ... open-1
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-1 OPEN-1 autobuild requires custom configurations for use with Visual Studio Express
	Kadah	Almost anything is easier than windows.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	:-P
	Oz Linden	the workaround is merged into my autobuild repo, and that may merge into viewer-development even before the weekend... we'll see about that
13:17		open-4 is the only remaining blocker, and Merov is working on it
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-4 OPEN-4 As an Open Source Developer, I would like to use Fmod in the autobuild system if i have the needed files already
13:18	Jonathan	Oz, on open-1 I see both subtasks Reviewing
	Oz Linden	that's because I have not pulled them yet, but I will
	Jonathan	k, good news
13:19	Thickbrick Sleaford	open-4 is a double edged sword. Personally, I would like to never ever use FMod... (now it's back on by default)
	Oz Linden	well, but is there a solution to hand to replace it?
13:20	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	On Linux, building with only OpenAL works fine
		Not an option for Windows, I guess.
	Tonya Souther	Or OS X.
	Oz Linden	there you go
	draconis.neurocam	openal works on windows, just not as well from what i have seen
13:21	Neal Kendrick	omg its a bunneh hehe
	Oz Linden	at this point, any potential replacement would have to work better, not just as well
	Liny Odell	does it still have the error on windows that if sounds or the master volume is muted or at 0 it eats CPU/
	draconis.neurocam	i speak only from openal and 1.x experiance however
	Oz Linden	bird in the hand and all that
	Jonathan	Liny, I don't think so, I was working in that area last month
13:22	Oz Linden	Next item.... and here's a fun one ....
		OPEN-11
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-11 OPEN-11 Change STANDALONE to something better.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Though maybe FMOD should default to OFF on Linux, like it used to. I currently see no reason to use it there.
	Latif Khalifa	fmod works much better at least on windows, any attempt to shoehorn something else would be detremental to viewer quality
13:23	Oz Linden	No comments?
	Ash Weststar	I have none so far.
	Oz Linden	Should I just close OPEN-11
	Liny Odell	sounds like a fun thing to do to get rid of confusion
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Well, the name "standalone" is confusing at least.
	Thickbrick Sleaford	I think something like NO_PREBUILT_LIBS will be much more self explanatory
	Liny Odell	yea, as per the only comment, though it does have a good suggestion
		yea
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	+Thickbrick
13:24	Latif Khalifa	syslibs/bundled_libs
	Oz Linden	Ok ... we've got a good sample group here... any suggested alternatives?
	Ash's Zidonuke	Nope
	Tonya Souther	BUILD_EVERYTHING
	Ash's Zidonuke	NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
	Jonathan	Let's not have NO in the name
	Tonya Souther	or BUILD_LIBRARIES_TOO
13:25	Kadah	Ditto on NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Tonya, that's not what standalone currently does.
	Ash Weststar	BUILD_ALL_LIBS
	Liny Odell	well, they dont get build either way tonya, it just pics from either the LL built libs or the libs on your system
	Ash's Zidonuke	Aruging about a variable naming :>
	Tonya Souther	Then make it USE_SYSTEM_LIBS.
	Jonathan	LIB_SOURCE
	draconis.neurocam	NO_PREBUILT_LIBS sounds like it makes the most sense
	Oz Linden	I like affirmative names
	Sunset Lane	hi everyone
13:26	Thickbrick Sleaford	standalone on linux means "link dynamically to the system libs, in stead of dynamically to the downloaded prebuilt libs"
	Noa Arrowsong	hello sunset! °͜°
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	take_lots_of_time_building_everything
	Neal Kendrick	agrees with draconis
	Oz Linden	ok ... here's the assignment... by next week at this time, everyone read up on autobuild so you know how that relates to this
		and then we make a final call at this meeting next week
	Cummere Mayo	use_system_libs seems to make a sense to me but im not a coder so eh
	Oz Linden	autobuild does let you install dependencies into your tree as source
13:27	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Maybe with autobuild it's time to retire the standalone/non-standalone concept entirely, not just the name.
	Kadah	SUPER_HARD_EXTRA_WORK_BUILD
	Oz Linden	may be
	draconis.neurocam	USE_GENTOO (joking)
	Oz Linden	discussion on the mailing list is welcome
	Ash's Zidonuke	lolol
13:28	Oz Linden	open-17
	Liny Odell	what if i use a different distro?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-17 OPEN-17 64bit standalone build clients do not correctly upload textures with alpha
	Liny Odell	before i opend it, i had a guess of openjpeg
13:29		as kdu isnt built for 64 bit
	Ash Weststar	Emerge is brought in by autobuild and sets up gentoo
	Oz Linden	OpenJPEG 1.4
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	lol @Ash
	Ash Weststar	(Couldn't resist, sorry)
13:30	Oz Linden	there is now an (empty) openjpeg repo on bitbucket
	Tonya Souther	Has anyone tried that one lately, Oz? I fought OpenJPEG alpha bugs for a month and fixed them by using gcc 4.2.
	Oz Linden	by friday, it will have the current version (1.3?)
		and it will be set up to build w/ autobuild
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	LL uses 1.3, though latest stable is 1.4
13:31	Robin Cornelius	I fixed the openjpeg bug in openjpeg ages ago, 1.3 is buggy
	Oz Linden	we're not going to try to do the upgrade of openjpeg along with the tooling change
		but...
	Kadah	1.4 went stable recently
	Tonya Souther	I'd be inclined to close that one unless it was reproduced on a current system.
	Robin Cornelius	good
	Oz Linden	as soon as that change is made, we can start treating that like anything else, and if someone wants to work out the changes, great
13:32		In fact, if 1.4 needs additional changes to work well in SL viewers, we'll host those patches and do builds
	Neal Kendrick	why doesn't everyone continue using openjpeg? i find kdu to be a problem among viewer development....i geuss my opinion is if it's open source it should stay open source??
13:33	Oz Linden	because kdu is much faster and significantly more robust
	Kadah	OpenJPEG is slow, very, and unsable, very.
	Tonya Souther	Neal, there are some subtle texture issues in viewers using OpenJPEG 1.3 and 1.4 (on different textures), but the textures show up correctly on viewers using KDU.
	draconis.neurocam	no one wants to do pointer arithmatic edge case checking neal
	Neal Kendrick	yeah, but also dangerous at times. right?
	Liny Odell	and kdu is able to work around other bugs that openjpeg runs right into and then fails
13:34	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Well, the viewer started with libKakadu and OpenJPEG support was added. So it didn't become more closed than it has been.
13:35	Tonya Souther	and OpenJPEG is the red headed stepchild of the bunch, and so absent someone going through it with a fine tooth comb and adding sanity checking everywhere, it's not going to work as well as KDU
		Never mind performance.
	Oz Linden	and if someone does, that's ok too
13:36	draconis.neurocam	im sure they would be loved if they did
	Tonya Souther	But that someone won't be LL.
	Neal Kendrick	yes, well my opinion is if you want it open source it shopuld stay open by using open sourced code...just can't see why anyone would want to pay for some ridiculous license for kdu...and put people at a trust risk again.
	draconis.neurocam	not just by slers
	Oz Linden	indeed
	Liny Odell	adds null pointer checks everywhere in openjpeg
		lol
	Mobi	essentially - cos it's worth it :p
13:37	Oz Linden	with the new code structure, there's no need for a closed source wrapper around kdu itself (and we no longer have one)
		that was the main risk, not kdu itself
	Jessica Lyon	^
	Neal Kendrick	well, kdu is still closed source right?
	Tonya Souther	Neal, we're between a rock and a hard place. The system only works correctly with KDU. But you're right, there are some lingering trust issues there. What should we do? Deliberately ship broken code? Stop all other development for a month while we go on a massive bug hunt in code we don't own? Or ship working code and accept that some folks aren't ging to trust it?
13:38	Oz Linden	yes, but kdu is also a substantial commercial entity that has a very great deal to loose should they be found to be bad actors
		and our usage is very small potatoes for them
	Jessica Lyon	I believe Neals main concern is in the Phoenix Projects intention to use KDU on Firestorm.
	Kadah	LL is not NASA, lol
	Oz Linden	they make their real money selling to people doing CGI for movies
13:39	Ash Weststar	When it comes to a matter of trust, I couldn't audit the Second life sourcecode without spending some years on it and by thenm there would have been significant changes that would need to be audited all over again. The trust issue is a bit of an illusion in my opinion.
	Neal Kendrick	well for me trying to fix the bug is that much more fun. thats the idea of open development right? to try and keep building and fixing bugs you find? so i don't see what difference there would be with kdu on bug fixes...
	Oz Linden	The fact that we are so small and they have so much to loose makes it easier to trust them
	Kadah	KDU is still 5 times faster at least.
13:40	Jessica Lyon	Neals trust issue isn't with LL Oz.
	Oz Linden	If you're hungering for bugs to fix, I've got a list for you, Neal
	Jessica Lyon	it's with Firestorm
	Oz Linden	then he shouldn't run it
	Neal Kendrick	no, it's with kdu...and the ability it gives someone.
	Jessica Lyon	that's what I said lol
	Thickbrick Sleaford	neal, if you don't trust someone, don't use their binary releases. If you do use their binary releases, it really doesn't matter if they link a closed source library into it, it's still a binary release.
	Oz Linden	in any event, that's off topic here
	Jessica Lyon	just don't use it if you don't trust it
	ƤìXεℒ	You can do "that stuff" without KDU
13:41	Kadah	Next item?
	Oz Linden	Last item on our wiki list is the builds mailing list archive....
	Ash Weststar	Thickbrick, if I had the SL viewer sourcecode, it would still take me years to do ap roper audit of it. Compiling it myself wouldn't make mallicious code go away.
	Oz Linden	my fault... I keep forgetting to get that fixed.
		I'll push it up the list
		I've got a couple of mailing list chores to do....
13:42	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ok
		no need to file a jira about that, I guess?
	Oz Linden	no... please don't ... I'll do it....
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	good :-)
	Ash's Zidonuke	Heheh
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Ash: many eyes, etc.
13:43	draconis.neurocam	is there a link to the autobuild documentation, or is that still being worked on?
	Ash's Zidonuke	Yeah
	Oz Linden	There's some on the wiki
	Ash's Zidonuke	Will the wiki build guides be updated?
	Oz Linden	needs work
	Ash's Zidonuke	needs some work
	Oz Linden	Yes, the build guides will be updated (most likey replaced)
13:44	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	some info is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Autobuild , but probably not what you're looking for
	Oz Linden	I'll probably need some help with that
		I expect the docs to get a little better during the hackathong
		after the autobuild devs get asked the same question for the fifth time, they'll probably document it :-)
13:45	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	lol
	Ash's Zidonuke	Heheh
	draconis.neurocam	one would hope heh
	Oz Linden	What do people think of putting questions in the talk pages of the docs?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	better mail them to opensource-dev
13:46	Oz Linden	I have not used talk pages much....
	Ash's Zidonuke	teag
	Jonathan	I never think to look in a Talk page--they are not discoverable
	draconis.neurocam	i fear most people wont read them, i only got in the habit due to wikipedia editing
	Kadah	If someone reads them, sure
	Toni Alatalo	ah, good thing i checked the autobuild wiki page now -- untill now though you talked about the ancient gnu autobuild and wondered why all the fuss about it :)
13:47	Ash Weststar	Perhaps changes to talk pages can be notified on the mailing list?
	Oz Linden	I wasnt' thinking so much of putting them there except as a way of getting the page itself updated, not as a long term thing
	Tonya Souther	That kind of thing is why talk pages exist, but I gree: I wouldn't have thought of them either if I hadn't done Wikipedia.
	draconis.neurocam	ah like notes for what should be changed?
	Oz Linden	I don't know how to get anyone else notified of a page change ....
	draconis.neurocam	if someone wants to spend the tme
	Oz Linden	right now, if you edit those, I'll be notified, but I probably won't know any answers :-(
13:48	Ash's Zidonuke	Ohh Ohh
	Oz Linden	well, questions to the mailing list or the talk pages... either way, I'll make sure that someone sees them
	Ash's Zidonuke	Oz watch the page
		and add email notifications
	draconis.neurocam	if you made it so other people were notified besides you, on the edit of them
	Ash's Zidonuke	:D
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	You can create a dummy user, have that user watch the autobuild wiki pages, and have his wiki settings set to email notification and his email address to the list address.
	Oz Linden	I do watch ... what I don't know how to do is make the autobuild devs watch :-)
13:49	Ash Weststar	Or setup a forwarding filter in your mail account
	Ash's Zidonuke	Manual database editing? :P
		force watch them :D
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	lol
	Oz Linden	fortunately, I don't have the access for that
	draconis.neurocam	cron job with some checks and some email references, heh
	Ash's Zidonuke	I bet Soft could do it :o
		:)
	Oz Linden	anything you've got root access to, you're responsible for :-)
	Liny Odell	what cant soft do
	Latif Khalifa	Zidonuke is in love lol
13:50	Neal Kendrick	yeah soft would probsbly be zido's pet if he had it his way lmao....
	Ash Weststar	>.>
13:51	Latif Khalifa	lol
	draconis.neurocam	i can hear his quack now
	Neal Kendrick	lulz!
	Ash's Zidonuke	Neal >.>
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	anywho...
	Oz Linden	Any other items to discuss today?
	Neal Kendrick	omg what did i do?
13:52	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	just currious, any new features planed for 2.6?
	Toni Alatalo	i have only off-topic thoughts :)
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	or just mostly bug fixes
	Kadah	Whats for lunch?
	Oz Linden	2.6... there will be release notes out with the beta release soon
	draconis.neurocam	i wish all of you guys good luck in the hackathon
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
	Ash Weststar	2.6.. We plan to have a plan!
	Ash's Zidonuke	Hahaha
	Neal Kendrick	see i think bug fixes should be a main concern..because 2.5 still seems to have alot.
13:53	draconis.neurocam	theres a lot of good things that have been fixed since 2.5
	Oz Linden	Oh... some stats to contratulate the open dev community with....
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	2.5 is the most stable v2 viewer so far, isnt it?
	Kadah	Fix VWR-23318
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318 VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"
	Ash Weststar	I <3 the web profiles in 2.5
	Oz Linden	almost 20%% of the committers in 2.5 were open source
	Cummere Mayo	wow
	Kadah	No, Ash, you 'like' web profiles >_>
	Liny Odell	yes, fix what kadah linked
13:54	Oz Linden	7.5%% of all commits were from them
	Tonya Souther	Ash, you and three others.
	Jonathan	Is that head count oz or by volume, or ?
	Ash Weststar	Oh that reminds me
		likes random people now
	Ash's Zidonuke	Hehehe
	Cummere Mayo	...
		stabs ash
	Neal Kendrick	yes, the web profiles are quite good...glad they used them...and have the security settings in there makes it more personalized...and customizeable...good for linden lab for doing that.
	Kadah	VWR-23318 is a stopper for me still, it makes the viewer unsutable for any use longer than short testing.
	Ash's Zidonuke	stabs Cummere :O
	Oz Linden	both numbers up from any previous release except 2.2 (which had a ton of old issues from many snowglobe revs pulled up into it)
13:55	draconis.neurocam	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1001 is most likely related and just hit storm today
	Office Orb	STORM-1001 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
	Oz Linden	We're looking at 23318
	Kadah	\o/ Oz
13:56	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Oz, is the OH orb still physical?
	Ash's Zidonuke	acts like it
	Kadah	The whole "my fps is betweeen 0.25 and 40" is painfull
	Oz Linden	yup
13:57	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i implmented kitty's fix into FS today, havent nnoticed anything wrong so far
	Oz Linden	orb is physical... forget why I did that....
	Tonya Souther	builds a Firestorm with the submitted fix for STORM-1001 in it.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	(for storm 1001)
	Oz Linden	but I"m going to get some improvements in on that soon....
	Kadah	What could be causing 23318 anyway? Its not fallowing hw or os.
	Oz Linden	going to enhance agenda management....
	Cummere Mayo	so wants the ui from firestorm in snowstorm
	Ash's Zidonuke	Oz, make the orb open source ;o
13:58	Oz Linden	I'll share the orb source....
		no secrets in there....
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	cool
	Ash's Zidonuke	except on lindenrobot :p
	Oz Linden	maybe I'll put them in my new tools directory
	Neal Kendrick	yay oz xD
13:59	Oz Linden	welll, I'm going to get back to merging....
	Jessica Lyon	Thanks for the time Oz
	Oz Linden	thank you all for coming
	Liny Odell	have fun oz
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thank you for updates
	draconis.neurocam	and ill get back to running what hits the autobuild servers
	RedMokum Bravin	Ciao
	Neal Kendrick	yw have fun oz :)
	Toni Alatalo	if off-topic is fine already, i have a proposal for viewer3 or viewer4 in 3 years, and it's not just fishful thinking 'cause it already works in our viewer :) .. dunno when / where would be good to talk about that
	draconis.neurocam	take care oz
	Ash's Zidonuke	very informative today Oz.
		Thanks
	Office Orb	End transcription
	Ash Weststar	Have fun, Oz
	Tonya Souther	see ya, Oz.
	Toni Alatalo	i guess not now :p
	Jessica Lyon	what's that Python?