Mesh/Archive/2012-12-17

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Agenda

  1. Update on Server side texture baking Nyx Linden 13:11, 11 December 2012 (PST)
  2. Can we have a version of llAttachToAvatarTemp() that works for objects out of prim contents without the need to rez them first? Lares Carter 08:26, 17 December 2012 (PST)
  3. For information - The physics weight issue I crashed out on last week is now in a jira - BUG 1080. I managed to narrow it down to a specific effect.Drongle McMahon
  4. What is the status of the mesh deformer project? Aki Shichiroji 12:11, 17 December 2012 (PST)

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday December 17, 2012

[12:01] Nyx Linden greetings everyone
[12:01] Nal (nalates.urriah) Hello
[12:01] Chalice Yao Greetings!
[12:01] Gramma Fiddlesticks /me stands quietly cause she dares not try to move.
[12:01] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Heya Nyx
[12:02] Drongle McMahon Hi
[12:02] Larry (avlarry) Hello
[12:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hiya Chalice
[12:02] Nyx Linden agenda link is here, please add topics to the end of the list if you have something you'd like to discuss: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02] Motor Loon ey Jess
[12:02] Motor Loon quite a turnout today
[12:02] Jessica Lyon Mew!
[12:02] Chalice Yao Hey Jess!
[12:02] Exotix (inara.pey) /me waves to Jess
[12:02] Jessica Lyon Purple! ‚ù§
[12:03] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) chal!!!!
[12:03] Jessica Lyon /me waves to everyone who doesn't hate me yet!
[12:03] Motor Loon lol
[12:03] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) long time no see :D
[12:03] Christian (christianraven) lol
[12:03] Chalice Yao Hey Tank!
[12:03] Nyx Linden how is everyone doing today?
[12:03] Skittleskank (skills.hak) you gotta wave to the haters ;3
[12:03] Chalice Yao /me is doing...slow.
[12:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I'm doing alrighty.
[12:04] Jessica Lyon lol, /me waves at the haters too... reluctantly...
[12:04] Motor Loon arh no haters here, we're all about the looove
[12:04] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) i need to ask you soem things about nacl later, chalhead
[12:04] Chalice Yao Sure sure!
[12:04] Latif Khalifa pretty well. got the new baking to work in Radegast over the weekend ;)
[12:04] Nyx Linden just a heads up, due to the holiday schedule, this will be the last usergroup of 2012!
[12:04] Aki Shichiroji ooh
[12:04] Nyx Linden excellent, glad to hear it Latif :)
[12:05] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) im still trying to get FS up to LL release... :P
[12:05] Jessica Lyon last usergruop ever if the Mayans were right! >.>
[12:05] Exotix (inara.pey) Congrats, Latif ‚òª
[12:05] Nyx Linden *last content creator's usergroup, other usergroups will still happen later this week
[12:05] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me snorts at Jessica
[12:05] Latif Khalifa thanks
[12:05] Nyx Linden so let's get started!
[12:05] Jessica Lyon Wow Latif... that's impressive!
[12:05] Nyx Linden first topic: "Update on Server side texture baking Nyx Linden 13:11, 11 December 2012 (PST)"
[12:05] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) wjay nyx said
[12:06] Skittleskank (skills.hak) wow you get holidays at LL?
[12:06] Skittleskank (skills.hak) is there a christmas bonus?
[12:06] Motor Loon no they get homework
[12:06] Jessica Lyon lol
[12:06] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Every day is a holiday at LL!
[12:06] Jessica Lyon haha
[12:06] Skittleskank (skills.hak) yea right :p
[12:06] Jessica Lyon can I quote that!
[12:06] Nyx Linden server side texture baking: its going to happen! We're making progress on it and have just released the viewer side of things to third party devs last Friday
[12:06] Cierra Anatine lol
[12:06] Vika (dayane.coba) lol
[12:07] Vika (dayane.coba) Im about to forget what is a holiday
[12:07] Nyx Linden you can find out more details here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Sunshine-Server_Side_Appearance
[12:08] Nyx Linden If you know someone who maintains a third party viewer, please make sure they know this is coming. Once we start rolling out the server side of this, it will break existing viewers, so we're trying to make sure all viewers get updated before then
[12:08] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) ill get Firestorm built with the sun changes later in the week
[12:08] Gramma Fiddlesticks /me is in mourning over the loss of her beloved viewer. =
[12:08] Jessica Lyon /me hides
[12:09] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) we should have a new repository with the changes and working by Christmas i expect
[12:09] Latif Khalifa Are JIRA notifictions working? I filed a couple of bugs for the sunshine project, people commented on them, I'm wathing the issue but got no notifications
[12:09] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) heya gramma!
[12:09] Nyx Linden I'll check on that Latif
[12:09] Gramma Fiddlesticks Hi Tank.
[12:10] Theresa Tennyson I don't think civilians can comment on the "Sunshine" JIRA like they can comment on the CHUI one.
[12:10] Nyx Linden so the wiki page I linked has the most important information on it, and we've been talking with developers and on the os-dev list, but are there any questions here about the project?
[12:10] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) SUN has the same permissions as BUG from what I understand
[12:12] Oz Linden Notifications don't always work correctly on non-public projects, and SUN is not completely public - it's intended for developers and the testers that are helping them, not the general user base
[12:12] Nyx Linden the sunshine project jira is visible to our active contributors list. If you know of developers who need access, please let us know, we're trying to keep the testing feedback fairly tight
[12:13] Latif Khalifa I have one very technical question :)
[12:14] Nyx Linden but once we start rolling it out it will allow the work of baking your avatar (and determining its shape parameters) to be done entirely on our servers, so we're hoping that it will help people who have baking failures or slowness
[12:14] Nyx Linden sure, please feel free to ask any questions about the project :)
[12:14] Motor Loon Are we expecting any downsides to doing it serverside whatsoever? (the upsides are obvious)
[12:14] Latif Khalifa the new UpdateAvatarAppearance capability requeres COF serial number to be sent. This seems to cause a lot of timing sensitive problem since wear-and-update-appearance operations are very tight
[12:15] Latif Khalifa was it neccessary to have COF version param in that call
[12:15] Latif Khalifa you get a lot of COF mismatch erros
[12:15] Latif Khalifa why not just have server use whatever the latest COF it knows about
[12:15] Nyx Linden it helps us optimize a lot, in handling out of order requests, requests that are stalled, and caching systems
[12:16] Nyx Linden the ideal case is that the viewer will make a bunch of changes and then send the request once the COF is in a good state, though the viewer currently sends some additional requests
[12:17] Nyx Linden due to our caching scheme, if we did not include that parameter, the simulator would have to do a lookup, and the result you got back may not exactly match your viewer's view of the COF
[12:17] Latif Khalifa but the viewer needs to make bunch of updates and then figure out COF serial number
[12:17] Cierra Anatine will this affect anything other than avatars?
[12:17] Latif Khalifa so it needs to query the inventory server about it
[12:18] Nyx Linden the project only affects avatar appearance, for yourself and other avatars, and additionally is unrelated to attachments.
[12:18] Latif Khalifa and you get into situation where i select "replace outfit" and it's very difficult to tell when the inventory server is done updating coff
[12:18] Theresa Tennyson I've been having problems changing into pre-existing outfits (i.e. covered with blue text)As soon as I change anything I'm wearing I display properly
[12:18] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) it wont affect attachments on avatars, only things baked into the skin layer (clothes, skins, tattoos...)
[12:18] Nyx Linden yes, your viewer needs a response from the inventory server to know what to ask for.
[12:18] Skittleskank (skills.hak) guess it'll break temporary textures but nobody cares about that since there is local now
[12:18] Latif Khalifa yes blue text is the consequece of the issue i'm taking about
[12:19] Skittleskank (skills.hak) will you completely block the other clothing textures for your own avatar at some point?
[12:19] Nyx Linden other clothing textures? can you clarify?
[12:19] Gramma Fiddlesticks breaking temporary textures is painful to those of us who do collaborative work.
[12:19] Whirly Fizzle Temp textures still work currently on the SUN test region - for now.....
[12:19] Skittleskank (skills.hak) like the composite TEs, jacket and such
[12:19] Latif Khalifa you still need those for local baking when in appearance editing mode
[12:20] Nyx Linden If you have a solid reproduction for hash mismatch errors, please do let us know, we're going to be hunting them down :)
[12:20] Nyx Linden yes, the viewer will still be able to generate composite textures, but the upload capability will go away.
[12:20] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) eventually
[12:21] Latif Khalifa It's not reproducable as it is time sensitive. You "replace outfit", inventory server is slow to respond, the viewer doesn't know what the latest serial of COF is, you get the mismatch, depending on the network, inventory server mood, etc.
[12:21] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) the current upload wil remain for backwards compatibility untill the new system is deemed stable enough to use it by itself
[12:22] Chalice Yao So older viewers will actually not be broken immediately on Sunshine release on maingrid.
[12:22] Nyx Linden actually no tankmaster. As we roll out the new system, there will not be backwards compatibility
[12:22] Chalice Yao Ah.
[12:22] Skittleskank (skills.hak) ;)
[12:22] Jessica Lyon Toast..
[12:22] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) i ment in the viewer, sorry
[12:22] Nyx Linden that is why viewers will *need* to be updated
[12:22] Skittleskank (skills.hak) inb4 henry backport :|
[12:22] Jessica Lyon lol
[12:22] Nyx Linden the new viewer code can work on older regions and grids though
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle Did anyone else see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-4 when testing?
[12:23] JIRA-helper [#SUN-4] On SunshineTest region, creating new body part and clothing assets and relogging will result in most new assets missing from database - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:24] Nyx Linden we'll definitely take a look at that one Whirly and see if we can reproduce it. Can you verify that it does not occur if you try the repro on a different region on aditi?
[12:24] Whirly Fizzle So far no, but I will check again
[12:25] Nyx Linden much appreciated. Just add a comment when you verify and let us know what region you tested on
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle Okay
[12:26] Nyx Linden Latif: if you can file your bug as well please do, even if the repro isn't consistent
[12:26] Latif Khalifa there are two reports already about COF mismatch: SUN-3 and SUN-6
[12:26] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-3
[12:26] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-6
[12:27] Nyx Linden alright, please make sure your repro is equivalent to one of those or add your repro in the comments. We'll be going over the reported bugs shortly and want to make sure we have all the information we need to hunt them down
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle Oh, in regards yo SUN-3, Whirly has the SVC-7727 bug, so in my cases, I think its expected behaviour
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle *to
[12:28] Latif Khalifa If I was designing this system I would remove the need to send serial number in the message than initiates the appearance as I see this causing a whole new class of bake fails. Sure it will be slightly more inefficient but this will not be high frequency operation
[12:28] Latif Khalifa And the reliability of the process is the goal of this whole project if I understand correctly
[12:28] Nyx Linden We'll keep that in mind, but allowing for the ability to cache repeated responses is important when everyone around you is requesting the same textures.
[12:29] Nyx Linden any other questions on this topic?
[12:30] Oz Linden if the number was not there, wouldn't we run the risk of baking using earlier content? that's a user visible bug, whereas requiring the viewer to retry when they don't match (while inconvenient for the dev) is not
[12:30] Skittleskank (skills.hak) would it be easy to implement certain serverside texture filters?
[12:31] Skittleskank (skills.hak) on normal textures
[12:31] Skittleskank (skills.hak) like.. idk, alpha and such
[12:31] Skittleskank (skills.hak) as some sort of dynamic texture that keeps its uuid
[12:31] Latif Khalifa Oz, I'm not talking about inconvinient for the dev. I'm talking about the bake fale due to the time sensitivity between apparence changes and the viewer knowing about the change of COF serial number causing bake fales
[12:31] Skittleskank (skills.hak) text rendering etc
[12:31] Latif Khalifa fail*
[12:31] Nyx Linden there are already a number of alpha effects that are used to generate the textures. For now we're focusing on getting feature parity with the viewer's current featureset.
[12:32] Nyx Linden Latif: getting back the wrong version of the bake is another form of failure. We'll look into the timing sensitivities and see what can be done.
[12:34] Latif Khalifa Just relaying my expriences playing with the thing over the weekend ;=
[12:35] Nyx Linden much appreciated, we definitely have some cases of failure that we need to fix before releasing :)
[12:35] Nyx Linden any other questions or feedback for now? we're also accepting feedback in the sunshine jira project, os-dev mailing list, or email myself privately
[12:36] Nyx Linden alright in that case, next topic! "Can we have a version of llAttachToAvatarTemp() that works for objects out of prim contents without the need to rez them first? Lares Carter 08:26, 17 December 2012 (PST)"
[12:36] Whirly Fizzle Only a minor point, it would be nice to have a shortcut again to quick rebake. CTRL+ALT+R no longer works.,
[12:36] Nyx Linden noted :)
[12:37] Motor Loon That would be a useful thing
[12:37] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) +1 to that
[12:38] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) it's still supposed to work - could you file a JIRA?
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle If it could stay at CTRL+AT+R, even better, seeing as everyone knows that one
[12:38] Qie Niangao Just thinking about what script would hold the permission to attach, if there's no rezzed thing... which reminds me: Whatever happened to Experience Permissions, anyway?
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle It is? o.O
[12:38] Latif Khalifa Whirlty: rebake won't work due to the caching based on serial number caching. You could work around it by say making a notecard in your COF and and deleting it and then trying "rebake" :P
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle Yeps Ill file one
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle Oh..is it or isnt it supposed to work then? Now Im confused :D
[12:39] Nyx Linden we'll take a look at it :)
[12:40] Nyx Linden as for the llAttachToAvatarTemp request, I'm not on the team that works on LSL (that's better suited to the server developer's usergroup), but I believe there are some limitations in our system that would make that a bit challenging to implement
[12:40] Nyx Linden its a good request though, have you filed a jira for it?
[12:40] Lares Carter There are still Jiras for feature requests? Couldn't find them.
[12:41] Motor Loon think you just file them as BUG dont ya?
[12:41] Nyx Linden you can file it under BUG and we can classify it as appropriate
[12:41] Lares Carter Okay, will do.
[12:41] Nyx Linden thanks! also might be worth bringing to the server usergroup once its in the system if you have the time.
[12:41] Lares Carter Sure.
[12:41] Nal (nalates.urriah) I use BUG and just start of the Label/Title as Feature Request:
[12:42] Nyx Linden next topic: "For information - The physics weight issue I crashed out on last week is now in a jira - BUG 1080. I managed to narrow it down to a specific effect.Drongle McMahon"
[12:43] Nyx Linden hrm, can you check the jira ID for that one? that doesn't appear to be the right one.
[12:43] Drongle McMahon Sorry 1081
[12:44] Nyx Linden aha excellent, looks like a very detailed write-up! Thanks, I'll pass it on and see if we can find out what can be done about it.
[12:44] Drongle McMahon I exp[ect
[12:45] Drongle McMahon I expect it will be nothing, but then we can look for workarounds.
[12:45] Nyx Linden possibly. We will take a look though :)
[12:46] Nyx Linden thanks for the detailed information!
[12:47] Nyx Linden next topic: "What is the status of the mesh deformer project? Aki Shichiroji 12:11, 17 December 2012 (PST)"
[12:47] Aki Shichiroji i was hoping Oz might still be around for this, but apparently he's not.
[12:47] Nyx Linden I'm honestly not up to date on the status of that project, I'd ask at Oz's usergroup
[12:48] Skittleskank (skills.hak) where's runitai?
[12:48] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) offline
[12:48] Nyx Linden last I saw him he had his bug-stomping boots on.
[12:48] Skittleskank (skills.hak) baww
[12:49] Gramma Fiddlesticks /me sends quick request to Santa for pair of "bug stomping boots".
[12:49] Nyx Linden alright 10 minutes left in the hour, any final questions for 2012?
[12:50] Latif Khalifa or final questions ever since dec 21st is near :P
[12:50] Jessica Lyon lol
[12:50] Vika (dayane.coba) I'm anxious for seeing mesh deformer done :/
[12:50] Nal (nalates.urriah) ...sort of off topic, but the PH Hr meeting region did not have the slow down we see in this region when we start coming it.
[12:50] Jessica Lyon it's true! I saw it on the INTERNET so it has to be true!
[12:50] Nyx Linden [citation needed]
[12:50] Gramma Fiddlesticks cause they can't put anythign on the Interwebz that isn't true! Right Jessica?
[12:51] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) we had scripts off at the estate level
[12:51] Jessica Lyon I had scripts off at region level Nalates, that seems to have a big impact somehow.
[12:51] Nal (nalates.urriah) They show as off here too...
[12:51] Jessica Lyon Gramma! exactly!
[12:51] Jessica Lyon are they off at group level or estate though?
[12:51] Qie Niangao parcel level here, I think.
[12:51] Gramma Fiddlesticks Yay for "Truth and Justice"!
[12:51] Jessica Lyon I highly doubt LL would give us a better than average performing region on purpose >.>
[12:51] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) ithink its just off at the parcle level here, which doesnt work quite the same
[12:52] Nyx Linden only at the parcel level here. I have a feeling tiny robots would have to be reprogrammed if they started turning scripts off for the whole mainland estate!
[12:52] Jessica Lyon lol Nyx
[12:52] Aki Shichiroji is there any possibility we can move to some other spot where this can be controlled?
[12:52] Nal (nalates.urriah) Well that is something to pass on to Andrew and Maestro
[12:52] Jessica Lyon ^
[12:52] Theresa Tennyson A sim I go to routinely has 30 to 80 avatars at all times and I don't remember ever seeing the single-digit server frame rates.
[12:53] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) then nyx may actually have to complete this building if we move...
[12:53] Theresa Tennyson It has scripts enabled, too.
[12:53] Latif Khalifa the scripting seems to be turned of on project sunshne test region. tiny robots are pretty broke there :P
[12:53] Nyx Linden good to know though, we can look into relocation if we think it would be beneficial
[12:53] Jessica Lyon This is also mainland.. of course. NOT that mainland sucks or anything!
[12:53] Gramma Fiddlesticks it would be for me!
[12:54] Gramma Fiddlesticks it's pretty danged bad when even local chat text takes forever to display.
[12:54] Nyx Linden alright, I think that will wrap us up for this year. I hope everyone has fun with the remaining holiday season and year-end festivities. Be happy and safe and see everyone in 2013!
[12:54] Qie Niangao Thanks Nyx. Happy holidays!
[12:54] Theresa Tennyson Is there any way to force the reloading of a mesh object that doesn't initially load?
[12:54] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Have a happy new b'ak'tun!
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle Have a wonderful xmas everyone :)
[12:55] Gramma Fiddlesticks thanks for the meeting Lindens. Happy Holidays to everyone.
[12:55] Cierra Anatine I'm a little unclear about temp textures. Will that still be available after the sunshine rollout?
[12:55] Jessica Lyon Merry christmas everyone! or happy holidays, etc etc!
[12:55] Prep Linden bye folks!
[12:55] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) When the next UG?
[12:55] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) have a wonderful holidays, nyx and vir
[12:55] Christian (christianraven) Bye bye everyone
[12:55] Jessica Lyon Cierra, no it won't. Temp textures will be broken once it's rolled fully.
[12:55] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Thanks for the meeting.
[12:55] Nyx Linden Cierra, no, temporary texture uploads will be disabled after the rollout.
[12:55] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) looking forward to a wonderful new year (in hell if needbe :P)
[12:55] Cierra Anatine okay, thanks Jessica
[12:55] Latif Khalifa thanks Nyx, happy battery recharging over the break :)
[12:55] Lares Carter Thanks for the meeting, happy holidays! :)
[12:55] Jessica Lyon no way around it unfortunately
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx Lindens, Merry Christmas.
[12:55] Aki Shichiroji Thanks for your patience and transparency. these meetings are much appreciated :)
[12:55] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) Nyx!
[12:55] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) .
[12:55] Nyx Linden Yuzuru, this usergroup should return on January 7th.
[12:56] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) Check your inventory :p
[12:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks .
[12:56] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Temp textures won't work at all any longer?
[12:56] Cierra Anatine Take care everyone, and Merry Christmas
[12:56] Nyx Linden local texture preview will work fine :)
[12:56] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you, Nyx.
[12:56] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ah ok. Thank you :)
[12:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks we'll only be able to use "Local Textures" as I understand it sha.
[12:56] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) correct
[12:56] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) tempp uploads use the baking system, which will brake in sun
[12:56] Aki Shichiroji that's not significantly outside the existing official viewer functionality anyway, right?
[12:56] Beth (aribeth.zelin) /me eeks, "Well, I'll be spending yet more time on the beta grid then....
[12:57] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That works just fine for me.
[12:57] Aki Shichiroji i've only ever been able to use Local and not temp.
[12:57] Jessica Lyon And sorry for the news Gramma :-/
[12:57] Cierra Anatine awesome...I love using local...great feature
[12:57] Gramma Fiddlesticks thanks Jessica. =
[12:57] Nyx Linden take care all!
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