User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-02-12

Topic & Summary

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for February 12, 2009.

Topic: Half-baked / hard to understand parts of the UI.

No summary is yet available for this meeting.

Transcript

[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alrighty, let's get started. The topic this week is half-baked or hard to understand parts of the UI. Which parts seem like they're not really done or could be improved? Or which ones are confusing and hard t understand at a glance?
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	No no Garn is right. I've yet to see a crash report thingie
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	well the preferences issues mentioned earlier is a good point to start since prefs are a collection of all sorts of things
[15:07]	Roof Doors:	Geneko Nemeth is at the door.
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	The reporter ap is missing or something, can't remember
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	what I gat crash report every time
[15:07]	Garn Conover:	huh?
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's get to the topic, yeah? Any half-baked or confusing bits?
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	maybe you are on an os that crashes too much of the system for the request to get the app running
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	Preferences is one.
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette mentioned preferences -- is it confusing?
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	how so geneko?
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	Garn; perhaps you have been hacked seen people get swear words in the UI a sure sign
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Preferences is confusing in the GIMP sense --- half the time you're not really sure where the tick box might be, because there are overlapping tabs.
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	I... I'm not sure. Just a lot of things and they don't seem to be ogicaly arranged.
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	yes lets look at prefs, too many practical things are burried there (considering noobs) I don't actually mind it myself
[15:10]	Garn Conover looks confused
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	oof!
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm not sure it's worth spending much time on though, because there is no total solution, since some Prefs options naturally cover two or mor tabs
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, they could definitely be better organized. And some of them probably don't need to be in a global preferences window, lumped together with other unrelated things
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	garn do you want to get muted???
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted waves to codie
[15:11]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	o hai! XD
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charletter sure is in a bad mood today ;-)
[15:12]	Garn Conover has no idea what Charlette is talkign about
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	I think it's a kind of given that the preferences are crazy; I mean, just look at the input tab, no idea what some obscure L$ balance setting is in there
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	[15:09] Charlette Proto: Garn; perhaps you have been hacked I've seen people geting swear words in the UI dialogs; a sure sign of having been hacked
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's also JoystickOptions which looks like these old control panels.
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	(err, I meant audio)
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well you can mod the UI so it's hard to say what happened.
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	I agree about prefs - needs a tidy up asap eg the listening position applies to all sounds but it is in the voice tab
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, so preferences are pretty untidy, lots of stuff there, and not organized very well
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	How about the main menus? File, Edit, View, etc.?
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	View menu is a large ofender here
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	that is 'listen from avatar/camera position should not be burried in 'voice chat' since it relates to all sounds
[15:15]	Garn Conover:	saw some1 would like to move the AFK/Idle .. but is that hidden for a reason or should it be more visable because its so widly used?
[15:15]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah its like a stuffing bin for random functions
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well there are 2 or 3 alternative approaches to sorting out Pref. (i) Stuff could just be moved around; (ii) Many more tabs could be created which would make the initial selection faster since the eye can pattern match fast to many tabs; or (iii) the number of tabs could be reduced to lump all those options remotely similar together. Any preferences? ;-)
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	the main menu could hava a preferences item in it
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	The view menu has both "I want to view <panel>" and "I want to adjust my view" options. It makes litte sense in English, and even less sense when translated.
[15:17]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	why not a Preferences top menu?
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	agree
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	What sort of thing would you put in there, Codie?
[15:17]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	the same tabbed items that are in the Preferences panel, only with each their menu options
[15:17]	McCabe Maxsted:	what do you expect when you open the view menu? Because every time I open it, I expect the options will open a floater
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	also some of the items in the 'Advanced' menu should be considered as part of the prefs
[15:18]	Garn Conover:	a somewhat shortcut for commonly used stuff?
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Many more things should be on the top menu --- it's a massive amount of wasted real estate currently.
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andd another 10
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	yep
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Preferences isn't *that* often used...
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	or is it? Maybe opt-in user interraction recording could help...
[15:18]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah thats true tho Geneko...
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, a lot of the preferences are things you just set once, according to how you like things
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	well I change some of the prefs quite a bit (eg listening pos mentioned before)
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Some of them are things that you have to change a lot. Like graphics settings / draw distance
[15:19]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	true Jacek
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	agree
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would make sense to put the more commonly accessed things to be easier to access
[15:20]	Garn Conover nods
[15:20]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	and maybe a few options from the Advanced menu like someone suggested
[15:20]	Garn Conover:	dont want to make preferences too crowded
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, there are definitely things in the Advanced menus that should be more visible and easy to access
[15:20]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	like Disable Camera Constrains, etc...
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Exactly
[15:20]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	especially that one, srsly
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	And Rebake My Dang Textures
[15:20]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yep
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	a 'preferences/advanced' top menu items as optional from view (x) would be nice instead of the hidden shortcut
[15:20]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	that one too is win
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe something like Google Chrome. Novice/Intermediate/Advanced.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Certainly Prefs should be up top. Also Appearance, Profile, Statistics Bar, Create Landmark, Environment Settings, and anything people use a lot. I'd make it user configurable.
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	yep some of the items from 'Edit' should be brought to the main strip
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	User configurability is always nice to have, but it can also be a crutch, since you can just be lazy and say, "Why bother trying to find a usable design, the user can just tweak it"
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Which is accurate.
[15:22]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	if you ask me tho, i agree with all that, but personally i would priorize some kind of better friendlist management because THIS is a total mess
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's not an excuse since 90% of peope won't tweak 90% of the interface.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	this kind of relates to the toolbar which we discussed many times before
[15:22]	Garn Conover:	also makes it hard for teaching if we cahnge everythign who wil know how other ppls will look
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	the toolbar could be a customisable thnig like most users now are used to
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Microsoft did some studies with Office, and found that 1% of users did any customization at all, and of the ones that did, most of them only changed 1 or 2 things. It's really just the power users who do customization
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	So if you want to serve the majority of your users, you have to focus on actually getting good design
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's more than enough work in those areas that aren't customizable. The few things that are relatively simple for users to do, like adding addtional entry points in top menu, should be.
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Plus most people will never read any instructions, including power users, who just assume because they're tech-savvy they'll know how a thing works
[15:23]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	that tells a lot about MS customer base Jacek, but i think most SL (tm) users are a bit of power users lol
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	so basic tools at first and shorter main menu and options in 'View' to extend the toolbar/menu functions
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	You have to remember that one person's "good design" is another person's "bad design", so user-customization wins hands down.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe, Codie, but there are a *lot* of SL users, and most of them are just casual users coming to chat and shop and such
[15:25]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah thats probably true. but since the interface is pretty much not-customizable, they surely are not tempted to dig deeper
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	the bottom toolbar has to go and be replaced by the toolbar under the main menu strip and perjaps status displays at the bottom as an option
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nuuu~
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	well causal users don't need to open the advanced features so they would see a simpler/better interface
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Leave the bottom button bar alone! I want to fill it with user-definable buttons, a ton of them!
[15:26]	Garn Conover:	heh
[15:26]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	i was going to say that Morgaine
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, we've seen some parts that are confusing. What about things that just don't seem done yet? Like LL abandoned them halfway through?
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	It -is- taking too much space
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	Joystick settings.:)
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, yeah, Joystick settings are pretty raw
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just 8 or 9 buttons there, a real waste of real estate, so it should become a self-expanding button bar.
[15:27]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah this is horrible
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	the toolbar below main menu would be more consistent with usual practice and the status at the bottom as well
[15:27]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	a chance they added a SpaceNav default button or people would suicide using the joystick dialog
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not with games.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	hahaha Codie
[15:27]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	its scary
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	look at new Skype it is like a browser window now
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	What about eople who don't want to spend $60 on something you can't play games with?
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	There is no one shoe fits all. Make the reporting area a user-placeable box, with a defineable width too.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	"Oh god, the numbers! *jumps off building*"
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	games don't really give a good paradigm to crosslearn; unlike standard PC apps
[15:28]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah seriously Jacek, im a programmer and this interface totally confuses me. not a good sign
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Speaking of boxes with a lot of numbers, there's also the build panel,
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	which in my opinion could use some sliders...
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	yep
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, yeah! That's a pretty confusing one at first
[15:29]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	it could but it would eat more estate
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	sliders instead of scroll boxes?
[15:30]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	the build box is meant to be thin because you need to see what you are doing
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	a slider floater that pops up when the focus goes on the attribute would be nice
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. But it still gets in the way all the time anyway. *facepalm*
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sliders and scroll boxes, or something hybrid like Blender.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	rather than a bigger Edit floater box
[15:30]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	true Jacek *giggles
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although really, I'd want to cut and taper my prims in-world (direct manipulations).
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	are there any features in the build window that could be put in their own window?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I'd love to see direct manipulators
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	We discussed an UI design that gives you far more viewing area than the current Build panel --- allow every UI control to be passed into the surrounding frame, so that no box obscuring the view is required at all.
[15:31]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	that would be awesome Morgaine
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	that still takes the view away with a frame.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, the frame does not obscure
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Shrinks the view a bit, yeah
[15:32]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	like over the toolbar on the bottom?
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah.
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	yep and consider the pie menu working like Maya and able to open a whole meriad of edit tools depending on context of the selection
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Unless it could be made like something from the Sugar desktop venvironment ( used in OLPC)?
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	what's that look like?
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	yeah, the pie menu too.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Both the top (menu) and bottom (buttons) areas are already surrounding frames, so yeah, allow stuff to be moved to any surrounding frame. And allow users to enable size frames too. It's all one area, the surrounding frame.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Is this it? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2320/1805652934_d7e6879ae6.jpg
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	A frame around a full-screen activity but it auto-hides when you are not using them.
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	s/size frame/side frame/
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	XD
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's a nice mockup.
[15:34]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah thats pretty cool
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	Maya pie menu doesn't have fixed fields i had a video some time ago, is like radially distributer buttons for everything you can do with a given thing
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	But Sugar is mostly monochrome.
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	More like this one, then? http://morgancollett.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/olpc-taskview.png
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, that's cool, as long as the user can set the frame width and the icons are scalable. I hate large chunky kiddie-style icons.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because it has to work with a screen which can switch between color and no color.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	yeah that's it.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Does the viewer currently have scalable icon technology?
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	it does
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Super!
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	this example has fixed number of fields eg some empty Maya has as many as you need eg 9 to 32
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. Yet they still feel compelled to draw all their icons as 16x16. Silly artists.
[15:36]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	lulz
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's still raster icons though.
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, yeah; it'd be a major pain to scale all the icons the way they do it now though
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	No SVG?
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	The whole GUI is OpenGL, so no reason everything shouldn't be scalable. In fact, it is, with the UI scaler
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although, it's not exactly done *well*...
[15:37]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	how am i not surprised
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:38]	Garn Conover:	typical
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	SVG support would be interesting. Or at least a built-in on-the-fly SVG rasterizer
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted wonders, btw, what about making the build tools a vertical toolbar on the left? It'd have all the same bits, just be, say, 300 pixels wide (thinking out loud)
[15:39]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	screen estate, again McCabe
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm, I wonder. Sounds like a mockup is in order
[15:39]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	im actually thinking of how to get rid of the Group/Friends list
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Get rid of it, Codie? You don't want to IM me anymore?
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	As long as the width is customizeable. Some things are better on side bars and some on top/bottom bars, which is why I think user-defineable placement is best.
[15:40]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	no, i rather see it as a tab in an Asset window (replacing inventory)
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	list based tools have the inefficiency of screen real estate if the number of items are not optimised to fit the screen
[15:40]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	so you could at least sort your friends
[15:40]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	i have 800 people on my friendlist and i cant communicate with anyone because im totally lost in it. communication = fail
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Windows obscure, so you're always moving around just to avoid the windows, it's totally infuriating.
[15:41]	Garn Conover:	i'd love a revamped friends/group list lol
[15:41]	Garn Conover:	and no more callling cards :D
[15:41]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	me too Garn, me too
[15:41]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	well if the new friendlist replace calling card functionalities, because they ARE useful
[15:42]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	at least with calling cards you can sort them in folders and stuff, do friends group chats, etc...
[15:42]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	with no limit on selection
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well just allow any entry from any list to be placed on the frame --- job done. Seriously, the "Move to Frame" functionality solves so many UI problems.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	I always said the calling cards and group cards are better than the contacts list
[15:42]	Garn Conover:	yea but contact cards are a lgger
[15:42]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	i kinda think so too Charlette
[15:43]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	well, friendlist too if you consider the lag factor Garn. both works a bit the same i think, for friend status notification
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	then if we improve the inventory the communications would benefit too
[15:43]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah i think so too Charlette
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	I bet people-networky-social type folks would fill their frames with people contacts if they could, for a one-click paradigm.
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wonder if we can't build the friends list off calling cards, and detect/group them that way
[15:43]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	why not a Friends tab in the inventory
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	lets face it many users have the inventory open most of the time
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	or back to the customisable toolbar below the main menu
[15:44]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	that sounds like a good idea McCabe, you guys already added a "Worn items" why not a "Friends" tab
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	If any folder can be placed in the surrounding frame, then the main inventory wouldn't need to be held open so often.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	tollbar can accommodate whatever the given user needs
[15:45]	CodeWarrior Carling:	wow.;. thje people you run into flkying around
[15:45]	Garn Conover:	hey Code
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy codewarrior :)
[15:45]	CodeWarrior Carling:	Hi Garn.. Hi CB
[15:45]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	hahaha hey CW!
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Avril. Funny that only your garters have ressed.
[15:46]	CodeWarrior Carling:	did I interrupt something?
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	hehe rezzing is getting more interesting with every RC
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Computer just turned it off by itself.
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	knaw, we're just talking about the viewer UI
[15:46]	CodeWarrior Carling:	good place for that it seems
[15:47]	CodeWarrior Carling:	hoping the walls have ears huh?
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hah
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	geneko did it overheat?
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	The walls listen to as much as the Lindens do when they're here
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Friends have nothing to do with inventory. If you think about it, if you add any non-inventory item to the Inventory window, what you're doing is creating a side bar in reality. But an annoyingly fat one.
[15:47]	CodeWarrior Carling:	:-D
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, I think it's my temporary keyboard that's quire un reliable.
[15:47]	Garn Conover snorts x3
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, since everything is an asset....
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	And Inventory would be an OBSCURING side bar, the worst kind.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	OK morgaine, lets put it in the customisable toolbar instead
[15:48]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	well as someone said Morgain, its already there all the time
[15:48]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	i always have my invent open. its just adding tabs
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted thinks being able to drag folders into custom inv tabs would solve codie's need, as well as perhaps others
[15:48]	Garn Conover:	seems odd squishign it together imo
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	I have inventory open and look forward to being to manage it better
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a huge sidebar only out of necessity, because its folders can't be detached.
[15:49]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	true.. true...
[15:49]	Garn Conover:	finally they post the rc release notice lol late as alays
[15:49]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	but its still eating up huge screen estate
[15:49]	CodeWarrior Carling:	worse yet.. it's a 'catch-all' sidebar
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	The submenus of the top menu are all detachable. How come that Inventory menus aren't? It could use the same code.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	I thought we were headding to make the inventory UI like a filesystem anyway
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	they don't work without the inv open; it's a flag you set
[15:50]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	in that case Charlette, what i was suggesting would be logical, as friends are basically files and should be folder sortable
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	to make the debate more focused lets stick to the filesystem metaphor for the inventory
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	The filesystem metaphor is for implementation underneath, to make every item addressable. It's not for the UI
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think I'd prefer to just make the friends list more useful as a friends list, instead of making it another inventory
[15:51]	Garn Conover agree's
[15:52]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	its double the screen estate Jacek
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	then many things can be adopted as analigies to managing data and files eg profiles open up when you access the calling card
[15:52]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	each damn toolbar takes at least 2 inch large on a wide monitor
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	What if they could be docked together?
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh yeah, it's a huge waste of space
[15:52]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	thats what im suggesting, it may not be IN the inventory
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	and when I iply a filesystem I'm not thinking of the MacOS jusnk but Windows style like people are familiar with
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	imply*
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	junk*
[15:53]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	but if they were dockable and you could flip with a tab or something, it would waste much less space
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Unix is junk? Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	When I say filesystem I don't imply the crappy Windows junk but the Unix filesystem metaphor.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	windows is the OS that rules and people /users are familiar with
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's not get into OS politics, please.
[15:54]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	lulz OS wars again?
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: Window is a pile of crap and only noobs use it. There, fixed that for you. Gotta love O/S wars :P
[15:54]	CodeWarrior Carling:	CP/M FOREVER!
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, the differences aren't too different anymore.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	do you really think Second Life™ users think in UNIX ways
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yus, CP/M++ !!! :-)
[15:54]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	MS BASIC FTW!
[15:54]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	okay thats enough OS jokes
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	\Program Files is /usr/share, \Windows is /bin, and \Users is /home ....
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	does the toolbar feel incomplete, or overwhelming?
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	LINUX and OpenSolaris have copied the Windows metaphor now anyway
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	GNU/Linux. XD
[15:55]	Garn Conover:	1234567890 is soon :)
[15:55]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	lulz and shakes head
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe, tool bars that are mostly empty space feel underused to me.
[15:55]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	the lower toolbar you mean? yeah, i must admit i use it a lot tho
[15:56]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	but i wish it was customizable
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	the toolbar at the bottom is useless and 'invisible' eg noobs ask all the time where the 'search' is , noboty seems to see it
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe if it's condensed into buttons with icons only and right aligns at bottom....
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Both bars, the menu bar and the bottons bar.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, that one. Does it feel like it's missing features you want it to have, or has too many that you can't find what you need easily
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Why a "fly" button.
[15:56]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah
[15:56]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	fly and search are useless
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	search isn't;
[15:56]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	srsly
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	I have the search bar disabled.... usually anyway....
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	total waste of screen realestate as far as UI design goes
[15:57]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	well i just use the little search box siding the $L as many people do i guess
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although it's redundant now.
[15:57]	CodeWarrior Carling:	one mans searcg us anothers fly.. the customizable thing is the anserr
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	See what I mean folks. NO ONE SHOE FITS ALL. Stop trying to pretend that there is a universal solution. Let people set up their own toolbars.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, I'm for removing it too.
[15:57]	CodeWarrior Carling:	I wawnt a fiux typos buttin in myune
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	But by default Search is redundant and fly is nonsense.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	no one shoe fits all, but there's a good compromise shoe that will fit a lot of people; that's where strong ui design helps
[15:58]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	im with Morgaine on that one, i would love to see it customizable, and removable if the user wants
[15:58]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	like in Windows
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	Spellchecker... that has always been a hot request.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	customizing is fine, I want it too; but we also need default settings
[15:58]	CodeWarrior Carling:	good ui design just means most people will stick with the defaults
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or gnu/linux. XD
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	customisable and below the main menu like I said 10 times before, plus a status bar at the bottom eg money and many currently hidden things just like sane users expect
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nothing is redundant if it's used. I use the Search botton hundreds of times a day. Not your role to remove someone's highly used button just because you don';t use it yourself.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	you can't expect users to build their toolbar before using it, so what will the defaults be? it's an important question
[15:59]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	it is McCabe. honestly i think apart the Fly button they are useful as default
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	the defaults could be easily agreed upon if the buttons were customisable
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure, finding good defaults is great. But REMOVING an existing button before you've found a way for users to replace something you've removed is not.
[15:59]	CodeWarrior Carling:	the defaults could be the 'new user' set.. and there could be loadable sets for different kinds of peope.. why not have one button that is always 'load toolbar settings'
[16:00]	CodeWarrior Carling:	then you can have different sets for different usage scenarios
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	What do you guys think about replacing Fly with a combined Movement/Camera controls (that would include a way to fly, as well as walk and change camera)?
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	CodeWar++
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	agree; what we have - fly + a few things like preferences and advanced
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Jacek++
[16:01]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	good idea Jacek, THAT would be already more usable. Fly... srsly.
[16:01]	CodeWarrior Carling:	I'll give it points for the coolest icon though
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's something you don't get to see in interfaces normally. :p
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Why are you REPLACING Fly? Just add another button!!! The current buttons are over 3 inches wide on my screens, it's nuts. Add more buttons and auto-fill, don't remove buttons.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli wants a "Fly in RL" button
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	also an option of having icons/text + icons/text only
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	Jacek++
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Some of us has smal windows that the text gets abbervated in english....
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: You just ranted about one size doesn't fit all, yet you assume everyone is using the same window size as you? The button bar on my screen is pretty packed solid.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	Morgaine are you in some preservative mood
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	The idea of "improving" User Experience by REMOVING options is seriously broken.
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Tell that to GNOME hackers. :p
[16:03]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	no, its not, when it makes sense. sorry.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	ah, but CodeBase must be the Star girl I bet
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gnome are idiots, they're dumbing everything down.
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: generally, people don't pay attention to a long series of buttons, it's too much to visually handle; the upper limit is usually given as 7 for what people will grok easily
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	besides, it's not like the space gained by removing buttons won't be used for something else.
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	User Experience is not about the boobs only. It's for everybody. So stop dumbing down
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	agree Gnome has gone to the wast paper bin in my life
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	s/boobs/noobs/
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bad typo
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	boobs sound like noobs
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	did you just say I'm boobs? I'm a boy.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	User Experience isn't about the boobs? Why did you get into this field then, McCabe? *Oooh, snap!*
[16:05]	CodeWarrior Carling:	well it makes sense sometimes... but there is a point that *some* users have lots of width and could put more buttons there.. or live with there being more buttons there.. and as a default.. there could only be a few buttons there for new users that would guarantee to fit in a 640 wide window
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	and I'm offended. <grins>
[16:05]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	removing a perfectly useless button nobody uses, noobs or advanced, is NOT dumbing down the interface.
[16:05]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	its making place for something more intelligent
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	my secret is exposed
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	But really. Please think of both noobs (not boobs) and experienced users when thinking about "user experience".
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	what 640 wide????
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	there are always somebody who uses it.
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Rule 34 of user experience if you may....
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli grins
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:06]	CodeWarrior Carling:	you could also relabel it to 'Disable Gravity' so the button does't look so empty with that itty bitty word in it
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	geneko I am stealing that :)
[16:06]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	okay let me state this. as a noob, that was my first point of confusion. the damn fly button. it allows you to get 1 foot in the air, and nothing else. i had to find out how to really fly using pgup and page down.
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh, that's a good point
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	640 wide can have two rows like in Audition or Word (MS Office)
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well CodeWar's reloadable toolbars satisfy everyone, noobs, power users, and SL-on-PDA small screen people too.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Which Audition?
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	the audio open source app
[16:07]	CodeWarrior Carling:	or you could implement scrollable toolbar
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Audacity....
[16:07]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	there. its useless, for noobs as much as advanced users. i second Jacek's idea of replacing it with camera controls, at least you have a visual and can cluck your way up or down.
[16:07]	CodeWarrior Carling:	or allow the buttons to not be the same width.. just as wide as the text inside
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	ah auditon is my Adobe version of the same thing sorry
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hence, replacing (yes, replacing) it with movement controls would let it serve its current function, as well as serving several other useful functions
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	I thought Audition is a not-really online rhythem game....
[16:07]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yes, movement controls, sorry Jacek
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	HAHAHA ... scrollable toolbars, when the buttons are each 3 inches wide currently. I vote for making them auto-shrink instead.
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, combined Movement/Camera controls. So we're both right? hehe
[16:08]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	especially its the first button after communicate. next logical step would be to move
[16:08]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	hehehe
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	seems odd too that camera control is so important, but it feels buried (at least to me)
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	It feels awkard to use to me.
[16:08]	Garn Conover nods
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	I never use camera or movement control tools by clicking the mouse on the ones we have (first thing I turn off)
[16:08]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	yeah especially for noobs McCabe, everyone takes a little time before discovering CTRL-ALT-SHIFT cam controls
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	total junk
[16:09]	CodeWarrior Carling:	does anyone else thingk a combined movement/camera thingie would work better than seperate ones?
[16:09]	Garn Conover:	if u use flycam disable constaints is a must heh
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Makes more sense but not necessarly better.
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: that's a good idea; a maximum size can be defined, LL was just lazy when they made it and never put one in assuming you'd always need the full screen width
[16:09]	CodeWarrior Carling:	one interface to 'move' and a context of wether it's the camera or the avatar
[16:10]	CodeWarrior Carling:	or mouselook for that matter
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	You can't interact with Ui in mouselook...
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: indeed, although it's a bit academic when we have no ability to add things to the buttons bar anyway. We should.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	frankly as I said these controls are abandoned as soon as you learn the real ways to move and control camera
[16:10]	Garn Conover:	Genkeko i keep trying lol
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, sometimes there's no way.
[16:11]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	as the Fly button is like 5 minutes after your first login Charlette ;)
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: abandoned by you. You really need to stop equating your requirements to those of everybody else. Everyone is different.
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	For example you spilled milk in your keyboard and your joystick doesn't have five axes so you cannot adjust the height of the camera.
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	what do you think about adding a flyout to search, with possibly an input field for Search All? or a flyout for Build with all the build options?
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	no comment
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	The general idea's cool but not for search....
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Flyout being the pop-up menu like on Communicate)
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	I mean build
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	I still use Fly periodically, and no doubt a few others do too. Everyone finds their own ways of using the UI. The only solution is to allow the toolbars to be customizable.
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	And then because the odd , modal way SL handles camera, there are things the camera floater can do that JS flycam or mouse +keyboard can't. Like centering the camera on you however you walk like those Japanese/Korean games.
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	why not for search?
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not for build.
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	And given that there is so much empty room on both toolbars, I don't see the argument for removing things, only for adding more if people want.
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Told you for some people there isn't enough room.
[16:14]	CodeWarrior Carling:	and if you just assume that ANY change to the toolbars at all are going to displease 95% of existing users for some reason or another.. and that the way to fix that is to allow them to load the old toolbar.. <SHRUGS>
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every additional thing on a toolbar is one less things that obscures my 3D view.
[16:15]	Garn Conover:	have the toolbar auto hide then until the mouse goes near it? lol then its not in your way
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sounds great - except it's hard to do that in windowed mode.
[16:15]	CodeWarrior Carling:	you're talking about customizable toolbars anyway. which means all discussion about what should be there and what should not has to be done in the context of 'to which set of toolbars'.. the new user set.. the advanced set.. the power user set.. etc.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	The toolbars are never in my way, they don't obscure the 3D view Garn.
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm a windowed mode user, too
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	What if only one set?
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	The 3D view is between toolbars
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	the image behind the toolbars is still rendered.
[16:16]	Garn Conover:	one of my random ideas lol
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Makes no sense)
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well if the image behind the toolbars is still rendered, that's an implementation bug.
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean like http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Image:Dazzle_MC.jpg geneko?
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whenever we're talking about customizability, there has to be a default. And most people are going to use the default, so it makes sense to make it as useful as it can be.
[16:17]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	agreed Jacek
[16:17]	CodeWarrior Carling:	this might be a bit off topic.. but when the UI is hidden.. mouse clicks really shouldn't be handled by the UI.. it's dangerous
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	I agree Jacek, and that's the role of UE customization. But an equally important role is to allow options to be added for those who want to go beyond defaults.
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Users who are determined to customize it, will customize it no matter what the default set is, and they each have their own firm (or stubborn) requirements, so trying to serve them isn't cost effective.
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	At any time, there are VASTLY more experienced people than noobs, so you have to cater to the experienced ones.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's not what I'm talking about... although, a nice idea
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	I just meant in general principle: all the toolbar on one line, sorry; that was my attempt at one, hehe
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: sure, once use customization is available, then there isn't much point helping the power users. But you have to provide user-customization before that argument applies.
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: I'd say you're wrong about there being more experienced users than noobs. Or, to rephrase it, more power users than casual users, which is the more meaningful comparison.
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	also, I wouldn't say the arguments are equal; until you have an idea of your interface and its needs, how can you create customizability for it? It would be wasted time to add customizability to an interface that doesn't work out of the box
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	With any app intended for the general populace (i.e. not a techical tool for DNA analysis or something), there will always be more casual users than power users.
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	wtf is happening???
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	If there is a customizable toolbar, it's more effective to serve the casual users in the default layout. But even if there is not a customizable toolbar, it's *still* more effective to serve the casual users, because there are more of them.
[16:23]	CodeWarrior Carling:	how can you have a discussion about what buttons would be best in a toolbar without defining the user
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	And their requirements are more in common with each other, than power users' requirements are with other power users.
[16:23]	CodeWarrior Carling:	if you want to discuss what would be best for new users.. you could probably get everyone here to agree fairly easily
[16:23]	CodeWarrior Carling:	but if you want to get agreement on what would be best there for everyone.. you will never get agreement
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Indeed
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	To make the argument go away, provide a means of user customization. Then we only need to discuss default layout.
[16:24]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I think that's true for anything, really. The idea though is to shoot for the biggest consensus
[16:24]	CodeWarrior Carling:	and what is best put there for new users.. is definitely not what is best for everyone.. so unless you accept that it can be customized.. you won't really get very far
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alright, let me phrase it from a statistical perspective: Which set of buttons would best serve the needs of 95% of the users?
[16:25]	CodeWarrior Carling:	existing users?
[16:25]	CodeWarrior Carling:	the current set
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Definitely every button that I want must be in there, right? (That seems to be everyone's approach)
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	No set? Because the users' needs are diverse.
[16:26]	CodeWarrior Carling:	easy question.. any change will confuse that 85% of casual users who have already halfway learner where they are
[16:26]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	you already know my answet Jacek, same as your suggestion
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	The question isn't which change would confuse them least, it's which buttons would be most useful to the most people
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Correct. Removing an existing button is exactly what would confused the majority.
[16:27]	CodeWarrior Carling:	put it this way.. if the next browser changes the set of buttons in the toolbars.. I will shrug cause I know everything is up int he menus anyway
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	toolbar below main menu is what you get in all standard apps so I can't see how anyone would be confused
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	We have MILES of space left on both toolbars. Why are you even mentioning REMOVAL????
[16:27]	CodeWarrior Carling:	if you removed the inventory button.. that would confuse the most.. communicate.. the next most
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	this is a theoretical question, try to imagine approaching this from a blank slate with no previous habits built from the interface you're used to
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	I still think the best way is to see them using it....
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	If you wish, assume that we can kidnap all of the users and brainwash them so that they can't remember what the UI used to look like.
[16:27]	CodeWarrior Carling:	after those two.. it's probably different for each user
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	I said before new users don't even see the bottom toolbar at first
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: speak for yourself
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: we've answered that question 5 times already. I'm not going to bother answering it again if you're not going to listen.
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Some users have eyes that can pan downwards, I assure you
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because 1) we don't 2)we'd like to pack in more things without it feeling crowded 3)removing means you pay more attention to what's left.
[16:29]	CodeWarrior Carling:	why are the buttons all the same width? can't they just be only as wide as needed to show the texy?
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'll ask again, which buttons are most useful to the most people? I assume you'll agree that some are used more than others, yes?
[16:29]	CodeWarrior Carling:	text
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Paying more attention to what's left"??? WTF, does everyone have ADD?
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wasn't aware that the viewer was turning into a remedial app.
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine, I'm going to ask you to calm down and be respectful, or remove yourself.
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	The less milliseconds someone spends to scan the buttons the better.
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	they could, but imagine how distracting it would feel to look at a long line of different-sized buttons; you'd notice the shape prolly more than the text
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Jacek, devil's advocates are a valuable asset
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: what's your beef? I'm trying to keep the viewer usable. Which input don't you like?
[16:30]	CodeWarrior Carling:	well it would take fewer nmilliseconds to actually *navigate* between them
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	I think I said WTF about 20 minutes ago
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova waits
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	I have no problem with disagreement or alternative viewpoints. I have issues with being rude and implying that the people who don't agree with you must have debilitating mental disorders.
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	what are we trying to do if not make Second Life™ work like new users expect an app would and shift the existing users towards a familiar paradigm of many contemporary apps
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: I think jacek's just frustrated because we've all agreed many times that customizability is important, and that we all want it. But it's not going to be a unversal answer, so we're trying to ask questions to solve the problems customizability doesn't solve
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	morgaine do you want a hug
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	That does sound a bit off topic from today's topic... xp
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Can I get a hug? I could use a hug. ;)
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: fair enough. I rephrase the comment about ADD as: not everyone is unable to pattern match a line of icons or of words. In fact, the vast majority of people are extremely good at it. So we should cater for the majority who pattern match just fine.
[16:33]	Garn Conover would offer facewashes but is sick and doesn't want to spread it around
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted gives everyone hugs
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe Garn
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	GRIDWIDE HUGGS
[16:34]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	❤
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alright. We've been at it for an hour and a half, and this seems like a good place to close it for a week. Thanks for coming everyone, and see you next week!
[16:35]	Garn Conover nuzzles Jacek
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Lots of interesting ideas to play around with
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	OK lets take a deep breath
[16:35]	Garn Conover:	when can i put my chatlogs back lmao
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: I understand that, and agree with it too. However, that only works if the solution is ADDING entries. If you REMOVE before providing user customization then you'll get a negative reaction.
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, there's always the mailing list if you want to say more abou it.
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Now we're not removing functionality here.
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, please feel free to use the mailing list. Heaven knows it's not getting used for much else
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Someone wanted to remove Fly, another wanted to remove Search.
[16:36]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	not if a broken functionality is replaced by something more usable, which is the point i think
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	just less usable, not exactly broken.
[16:36]	Charlette Proto:	we really need to go through some of the issues raised on the Imprudence blog or it will all go into history like JIRA does
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: the only reaction I really think we should be concerned about is, "is this the most intuitive it can be?" We've had some negative reaction for the pie menu changes in imp, for example, because people don't like change; but many more have commented how they feel more natural
[16:37]	CodeWarrior Carling:	I could live without fly.. but I do agree you'll always find people who will not like losing it
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	so do we need to keep the 'Fly' because it is now in the toolbar???
[16:37]	Geneko Nemeth thinks maybe he could copy the UI from Imprudence to SL.
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	The key point though is that the toolbars have TONS of empty space, so removing items is just pointless. If you must, just shift the entries you don't personally like to the far end of something.
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	there isn't TONS of empty space.
[16:38]	CodeBastard Redgrave:	as many people using this viewer called Imprudence, where the point is to make such important changes to improve usability
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every button is 1/8th of the whole screen
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well said, Codie
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	More accurately, may or may not have TONS of empty space.
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't think I've ever seen another app with buttons 18th the screen width. If that's not empty space, nothing is, except on a PDA screen.
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: 1/8th of the whole screen is a relative number. If your screen is smaller / narrower, the proportion of empty space to text changes.
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	1/8th
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's why I mentioned except on PDA
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	an interesting thing about UI--and something that I've only really started to become more intensely aware of after looking at it from a creator point of view--is how whitespace can be just as important as control space; for example, with the toolbar, the button sizes tell the user that these buttons are Important, and more important than any other buttons
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Indeed
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	And we don't decide what main viewer is to be like just because some people use SL on their cellphones.
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	not saying that it should be the way it is, but that there's a different way to look at its current size
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: that's not what the button bar size tells me. ;-)))
[16:41]	CodeWarrior Carling:	that's why I think even without customization.. multiple toolbar setups is a useful concept
[16:41]	CodeWarrior Carling:	perhaps the viewer can detect the screen size and show an abbreviated versio
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Profile.
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Profiles.
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	There's a thought
[16:42]	CodeWarrior Carling:	I know when I film machinima.. I shink down to a very small window.. and I wish the UI could declutter automatically.. and then put things back when I go back to full size
[16:42]	CodeWarrior Carling:	so even though I usually have a lot of space.. I dont always
[16:43]	CodeWarrior Carling:	that is what prompted the comment about the UI being 'live' when hidden is dangerous.. I know other film maers that have deleted things or even paid someone accidentally
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	CodeWar: you need the rendering fixed to not render under the toolbars.
[16:43]	CodeWarrior Carling:	what do you mean Morgain?
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted didn't know you could do that while hiding the ui
[16:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Then you wouldn't worry about having controls out.
[16:44]	CodeWarrior Carling:	if I had to replace fly with something.. I would put prefs there.. but that's just me