User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-02-26

Topic & Summary

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for February 26, 2009.

Topic: Combo Buttons, Pie Menus, Mouse Interaction

There was no set topic, but Jacek suggested talking about combo buttons, i.e. buttons with an attached menu, such as the Communicate button on the toolbar and Say button on the chat bar. We discussed other places in the UI where combo buttons could be used:

• Search button in the toolbar. Add a menu with the different available search tabs (All, People, Events, etc.). Selecting a menu option would open that tab.
• IM window's Profile button. Add a menu with options from the profile window (Pay, Offer Teleport, Add Friend, etc.).

Morgaine suggested the combo button menus be tear-off-able. Dirk wondered about the possibility of making the combo button menus be pie menus (or half-pie menus, at the bottom of the screen).

The topic then moved to pie menus and mouse interaction. We discussed accessibility of the pie menu, such as being able to select menu items via the keyboard, e.g. number keypad or arrow keys, or by typing a key with the pie menu open (e.g. S for Sit).

We also discussed alternatives to the "left click interacts, right click summons pie menu" model of interacting with the world. For example, right mouse button could be used to rotate your view and avatar, as is done in some MMORPGs. Another example, left click-and-holding on an object could bring up a menu of options for interacting with it (touch, sit, pay, open, etc.).

Near the end of the meeting, we brainstormed some topic ideas for future meetings.

Transcript

[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alrighty. Today is open topic. Anything anyone wants to talk about in particular, or should we just wander?
[15:05]	Asterion Coen:	/hello folks ^^
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Asterion!
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy asterion :)
[15:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Ast!
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	So many new people today.
[15:06]	Asterion Coen:	(rezzing, as always) - wont move to dont walk or sit on somebody :)
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	not much Morgaine
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Don't worry, that can't happen.
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	if you sit on me, it's okay; just watch where you poke
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Since no topic, how did the experiments with flexie sculpties go?
[15:07]	StarSong Bright:	so do we have topics today? i missed last week darnit and really was curious aobut the topics - drawers particalrly
[15:07]	Asterion Coen:	(last time ui was sitting of the head of someone (hope he is ok now) :)
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	open topic star
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	No topic today.
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	We tend to have different topic every week, don't worry.
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	The flexi sculpties went pretty well. They have a terribly low level of detail, though
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah. But surprisingly little lag
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't sit on my head please. Blue kitties don't look good flat.
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Low detail?
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	(http://imprudenceviewer.org/2009/02/23/just-for-fun-flexible-sculpties/ is what morgaine's referencing)
[15:08]	Asterion Coen:	oh, blue kitie is here too :)
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova wonders if Ast has more milk
[15:08]	Asterion Coen:	/(sadly i cant rezz milk)
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[15:08]	StarSong Bright:	oh darn, excuse me all i have a sim emergency
[15:08]	StarSong Bright:	have to run
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	bye Star
[15:09]	Asterion Coen:	stars need a phone to call 911 ? :)
[15:09]	StarSong Bright:	mc can you send me the urls for the logs ?
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko, I'm not your footstool
[15:09]	StarSong Bright:	smiels
[15:09]	StarSong Bright:	i am 911
[15:09]	StarSong Bright:	grins
[15:09]	Asterion Coen:	:)
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	XD
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	some interesting issues since last roll of restarts
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	np
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	What are those, Charlette
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	seen two adjaicent sims with no textures for example
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	avies OK but nothing on the sims
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Strange
[15:11]	Asterion Coen:	i see dirk with a zombi face (other exemple)
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	a couple of restarts of thos fixed it
[15:11]	Dirk Talamasca:	That is how I always look Asterion
[15:11]	Dirk Talamasca:	LOL
[15:11]	Dirk Talamasca:	Dead and bewildered
[15:11]	Asterion Coen:	the good point is that i see morgaine in blue
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like, barren wasteland....
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Dirk, my brainz is off limits, get a sandwich instead ;-)
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or "Ruthland"?
[15:12]	Dirk Talamasca:	LOLOL
[15:13]	Asterion Coen:	always wanted to do that ^^
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alright, I have a small topic we could talk about. Maybe we've covered it before. :P
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	I've done it many times
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	welcome area habit
[15:14]	Asterion Coen:	not sure i was right drinking a beer just b4
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	we sit as many avies as it takes to stop it with drag
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's using split buttons more, like the Communicate window has two sections, one with an arrow that pops up a menu
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	testing the physics engine I call it
[15:15]	Asterion Coen:	morgaine u should take vare, i got a sensible stomack, especialy after a beer and rotating :)
[15:15]	Asterion Coen:	care*
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	LLSetOmega is viewer-side.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Can't say I like the pull-out menus.
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	so why does it stop Geneko?
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ew. /me hopes Ast doesn't spew up in a circle as he rotates
[15:15]	Asterion Coen:	morgaine for sure you will change of color :)
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Why's that, Geneko?
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Blue will overcome all.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, it's viewer-side unless the prim itself is physical.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek, what is the merit of split buttons vs 2 buttons?
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	takes about 6 avies and the hand stops
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: the split buttons suggest a relationship between the two parts
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	I'm talking about a different logo the cut out hand but I'm sure this will be the same
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Since they appear visually connected
[15:17]	Asterion Coen:	hmm
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think split buttons are effectively a menu on the main button legend, but not sure beyond that
[15:17]	Asterion Coen:	nice parfum :)
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nothing in particular, just I don't like it by emotion...
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	nice when you let the camera spin
[15:18]	Asterion Coen:	to have a headackes ?:)
[15:18]	Asterion Coen:	-c
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, the communicate button anyway. The Say button's okay because you don't shout or whisper very often, and you usually use Enter and not click it anyway.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	eep was going to throw up
[15:18]	Asterion Coen:	:)
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	don't have appropriate particle textures on hand
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, I get it! Jacek, a split button is just a menu, but with a single-click area as well.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth whispers: I'm not sure who would like you to whisper anyway...
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right, or alternatively like a button with a menu attached
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whichever way you want to think of it
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Coolness. So, where is that paradigm a good one?
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	so when do we get BOOLEAN operators in search and SOUNDS LIKE algoriths
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	When there's a group of related functinalities that you only need to use one at a time.
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's pretty useful for giving quick access to more options without taking up a lot of UI space
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: no --- that's the function of a menu, not of a split button
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	For example, I was thinking of changing the Profile button in the IM window to have a pop-up menu with Teleport, Pay, etc.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	One at a time- repeatedly, like rezzing a cube.
[15:21]	Dirk Talamasca:	I asked them for that over a year ago Charlette. Andrew looked at me and asked.. "Why would you want that?"
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: but a split button is partly a menu, so there are certain to be places where either one would be appropriate
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	The button part of the split button is just an accelerator, picks one of the entries in the menu part.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	me too Dirk but I can justify both parts
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right. XFCE (a Linux window manager) uses this paradigm too
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	sry lets do buttons for now
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	For example, I have a button set up to launch Imprudence. But it also has an arrow next to it that brings up a menu with other options: to launch previous versions of Imprudence, since I use those for testing, too
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	If the single-click function of the split button is configurable to one of the entries in its menu (eg. by holding down Shift while selecting the menu entry), then this could be quite good.
[15:24]	Asterion Coen:	buttons tsss, that's hasbeen. what about vocal commands ? (no ? ok ok) :)
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	like Photoshop toolbar buttons
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: that's a good idea
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's another good example, Charlette :)
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think that would suit build tools very nicely.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	The Photoshop buttons are interesting because (If I recall correctly), the tool that you select then becomes the one that the button shows, and that's selected when you click it
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	In the Search button, we could have the split menu directly select a tab. Or even further, it could select the Events entries for example, eg. Search->Events->Live Music
[15:25]	Dirk Talamasca:	If you go that way, what might you anticipate could be seen as an issue or perhaps a solution to residents with disabilities. Will we create a tougher environment for some while making it easier for others?
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, the button automatically adjusts to have quick access to the tool in that category you used most recently
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Most recently" ... not sure about that. How about making it directly settable
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not much a problem, because Second Life isn't very accessible at all. XD
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, SL needs more accessibilty, no doubt
[15:26]	Asterion Coen:	/(ls need a lot of stuffs)
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	So... vocal commands?
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: definitely. Eg. the "Don't crash" command is essential
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: Yeah, that would probably be better
[15:28]	Asterion Coen:	im not an addicted of vocal stuffs (erm, i dont have any mic) but it can give access to the interface to some ppl who cant use hands
[15:28]	Asterion Coen:	(or nose)
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	If it's Windows' speech wrecognition... I think you would need to have Sl expose a screen reader interface or something.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Dirk: the menus that pop up are navigatable by keyboard. Although I just noticed you can't select the split part of the button to open it with the keyboard. D'oh
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, wait. You can press up arrow
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Easy on the UI part. But not when in-world where everything's moving and you have a bunch of touchable stuff all named "object".
[15:30]	Dirk Talamasca:	right.. that is where I was going with it.. I am not sure if you can have that accessible as the solutions for the pie menu.. It's always somethin...
[15:30]	Dirk Talamasca:	I say we trash it and start over
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, Morgaine mentioned it might be useful to have the Search button have a split, and when you click it, it brings up a list of the tabs -- All, People, Events, etc.
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, I actually LIKE the pie menu because it makes it easier to issue commands.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	The search button on the top right corner?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	And I mentioned my idea for the Profile button in IM. And I got a suggestion recently that the Inventory button could have a menu to open a new inventory window
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko: I think she meant the one on the bottom toolbar
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	someone else out of the woods on pie menu practicality, thanks Geneko
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any other ideas of where this paradigm might be useful?
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	did the customisable TOOLBAR ever get off the ground - surely the best way to have various alternative user tasks fixed noob/advanced/builder/whatever
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: just a random possibility, not really saying it's good. But since I always do Search->Events->Live Music repeatedly, it annoys me that I don't have an accelerator for it.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette, ??
[15:32]	Asterion Coen:	we can see morgaine like live music :)
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	the pie menu or were you having a go it Geneko?
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe you could have some kind of search codes like type:event.livemusic
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek, could the menu part be made tearable-off (if that's a verb)?
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be interesting, Geneko
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette, I don't understand what you're saying.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: That's certainly feasible
[15:33]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hmm what if there were a way that the split menu could instead be a pie menu .... but only half a pie menu that docked itself on the toolbar?
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Now that's madness.
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: I love the way that the main menus can be pinned up and moved
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Why a pie menu, Dirk?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could gesture stuff with a pie menu...
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	[15:30] Geneko Nemeth: Well, I actually LIKE the pie menu because it makes it easier to issue commands. - I think we need to improve and make it more comprehensive as everyone would have heard by now
[15:34]	Dirk Talamasca:	Well because if we are talking accessibilty, there are solutions for navigating the pie menu
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm annoyed that inventory folders can't be pinned and moved just like submenus.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	that is my poiny with pie Geneko
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pony pie?
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Dirk: Hrmm, okay. But pie menus have their own accessibility issues. Is there a way to use them with the keyboard, yet?
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think Pie menus, as they are currently implemented in Second Life, are only good with context sensitive stuff...
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nope. T_T
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	Seems like you should be able to navigate pie menus with the number pad.
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Arrow keys would suffice.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	E.g. 1 would select the bottom left option
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	My main issue with the pie menu is that I can't remap it to anything but right-click. I want to move camera with right-button-down, just like in MMO's.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Using number... would be more intuitive though.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aww, me too.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	pie needs only one dimention of control +/- is enough so many interfaces can use it
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could actually use the pie menu with your left button, there is (or maybe was) a debug setting fro that...
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	But then you lose Touch/Grab.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: I'll look for that, ta
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could make a compromise where dragging RMB is camera movement and clicking RMB is pie menu,
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	but then you miss drag-click pie gestures.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'd be happy to move right-click to something like Ctrl-leftclick.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm, yeah.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	What about people who don't have a RMB/
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	*RMB?
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like Apple mouse users.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, yeah. They use Cmd-leftclick I think
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or maybe Ctrl-Leftclick
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, except the Mighty Mouse which I have here...
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	You usually don't use Ctrl on a Mac, that's for sending control codes in terminals.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's also used for opening context menus in some apps
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	MMB is also taken for Push-to-Talk.
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	the metakey and mousebutton combinations are a prob with one button mac interface
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	On Macs, how do you select the pie menu if you have no RMB?
[15:41]	Dirk Talamasca:	How about Pie Menu acquires focus and mousewheel scrolls through pie? Focus is returned only after a selection is made
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	aH, cMD
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	what is mouselook good for? I never use it
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	doesn't work for laptops, dirk; mousewheel scrolling is hit or miss there
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Shooting stuff.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like pies.
[15:42]	Dirk Talamasca:	Ytue enough McCabe
[15:42]	Dirk Talamasca:	ack True
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	yes McCabe mine has dedicated section for scroll but no click
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's useful for very little. Mouselook could be useful for the FPS experience, but is poorly implemented.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Some vehicles are designed to be driven in Mouselook.
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	And they're damn annoying
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yup.
[15:44]	Dirk Talamasca:	I agree.. If I am going to crash my vehicle, I want to see all of the carnage
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's useful for completely trapping disabled users who use an on-screen keyboard. Gentle Heron told me and McCabe once about that.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	ah those where you can't see where you are going, sry I forgot, never use vehicles since i can fly
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Losing all your UI objects on entering Mouselook is just nuts. WTF were they thinking ...
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	"Immersive Experience"?
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	If you rely on an on-screen keyboard, going into mouselook is irreversible. And you can't even close SL or restart the computer to get out of it.
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Anf there should be a 3rd person version of mouselook anyway
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like "Mouse steering?"
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	If you click and hold your avatar (or nametag) you could control your character's direction with the mouse.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	most FPS games use mouse steering with click to go
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	mouse steering! now there's an interesting idea
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Click to go? I'm sure they use WASD.
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	We actually oovered the topic of camera controls in part on the Impru forum. There's a ton of problems, Mouselook is just one.
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if there should be an expanded camera control set, or just broader defaults
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Usually it's these right-drag-to-change-angle games that use click-to-go.
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Most MMOs use right-mouse-down (then move mouse) for camera panning control, and either left-button or middle-button for forward move. That then allows you to do complete navigation + movement with mouse hand only.
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	They tend to center your avatar in the center of the screen and have a top-down view, too.
[15:50]	Ryu Darragh:	I'd go with left button.. middle is super handy for voice PTT
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	In Second Life I tend to see my own butt most of the time.
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's a lot of left-clickable elements in SL™
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've used those controls with EQ, AO and GW a lot, but seen them in others in passing. It's as common as WASD.
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Then again, so is in WoW...
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	moreso than other MMOs?
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	But floors are usually not touchable.
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah yeah
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	it'd never work in buildings
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Don't see why not...
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could click-drag to move in a particular direction.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	think of all the dance floors in clubs that you click on to dance
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ow.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	it'd need either a second control input or a clickable area
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, I said "usually".
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, we're near the end of the hour, so I want to spend some time brainstorming topics for future meetings
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted chuckles. Another way the versatility of SL™ also makes it frustrating
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any ideas? They can be new, or past favorites, or whatever
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	How could we make it less frustrating, especially to newcomers?
[15:54]	Dirk Talamasca:	or a button that allowed you to enable or disable left click quickly and easily.. Many residents have no trouble with reaching up to slap their AOs on or off
[15:54]	Ryu Darragh:	It's worse. I'm after trying to make menus and chat boxes fully MDI compliant so you can move them to a second monitor :P
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Less frustrating. Good
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well SL's single-action-only left-click paradigm is just totally nuts. You should be able to left-hold-down and then click any keyboard key for a different function.
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	In-world interaction? Like vendors, or between people.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anything in particular about in-world interaction, Geneko? Improving it? Different ways to do it?
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	I imagine it's kinda boring-technical for some, but was button type adequately covered?
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Same goes for pie menu: you should be able to right-hold-down & click 's' to sit for example.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Improbements maybe? Or even just what kind of interactions are there?
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's still not as quick as right-drag-northwest Morgaine.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any other topic ideas?
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's an interesting idea though; abstracting mouseclicks; why should left clicking always do what left clicking says it should do without you giving input?
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe specific parts of the UI you'd like to focus on?
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: northwest unfortunately can mean anything ... especially now that Impru has moved pie menus around.
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	maybe left clicking could just open another bit of ui
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted ponders
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's why for pie menus to work you don't move them around... often, anyway.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	how about a tutorial office hour, "How to make your first UI change"?
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth thinks SL's arrangement of the pie menu is a bit nuts
[15:58]	Ryu Darragh:	Left click is always default on pie menu. How about shift left click opens another menu as you suggest?
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tutorials are good idea. Or presentations
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: my take on left-click is to leave it for picking/targetting (even better if there's a field on a bar that tells you what you've picked).
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	But how would people know that Shift+RMB opens another menu?
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe: Maybe you could give a tutorial based on your skinning howto?
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's already Hover Tips to tell what you've picked but a bar's better.
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	I could if anyone's interested in poking at xml files :)
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool, how do I sigh up to the McCabe Skinning Lectures? ;-)
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth pokes with XML files all the time in translating the SL client.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or a few parts of it. Like "How to change the UI colors", or replace the images. And maybe another one on how to change the layout
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	When will Imprudence get skin packages support?
[16:00]	Ryu Darragh:	Yes. That's what I'm after.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted has been meaning to rewrite some of the linden ones; they're old and need updating, coudl be clearer in areas. Heh, I could do that
[16:01]	Ryu Darragh:	MDI compliant wodows to allow moving menus and chat boxes to monitor 2 or 3
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	What is MDI?
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Multiple Document Interface?
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's someone on MMOX currently saying (effectively) "If you redo everything in XML it will solve world hunger and poverty."
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha tryu, that's a bit big of a topic there
[16:01]	Ryu Darragh:	Sorry.. M$ speak for fully windows child window based.
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted happens to be a fan of XML
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sometimes simple things like JSON is better. XML is good at aggregating and markup.
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	as jacek surely knows
[16:02]	Ryu Darragh:	Right now all windows call an XML render from within the client, right?
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, there have been a lot of requests for being able to move, say, the Inventory or Build floaters to another monitor
[16:02]	Ryu Darragh:	Communicate box is a biggy
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, but it's rendered in the client space allocated
[16:02]	Ryu Darragh:	Literally
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	or rather, assumed
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	XML is fine except at runtime. Just too heavy. So I prefer it at build or specification / API time.
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	the viewer doesn't detect what actual space you're using well, even
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, currently all the UI is drawn with OpenGL, loaded from XML files
[16:03]	Ryu Darragh:	To make them MDI would mean tracking more child windows and using multiple instances outside the client. Tricky, but..
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, parts of it are generated or modified by the code, too
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	true, it can be either/or
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Runtime has its pros, you don't have to recompile your client to test a translation.
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right, Ryu. Would be nice though.
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:04]	Ryu Darragh:	And *that* would be a boon to everyone with 2 monitors
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	It loads it every time the floater opens though. Good for translating, bad for performance.
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	definitely; or even those of us who run in windowed
[16:04]	Ryu Darragh:	And since monitors nowadays can be as cheap as a Mr. Coffee
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I run in Windowed and have a lot of extra space around the window. Would be nice if I could move some parts out there.
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted nods at geneko; it's something I've been pondering lately, actually, whether or not to standarize building at runtime or load
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	Ruy I think rendering window should be separate from the UI floaters
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Runtime, but only at startup.
[16:05]	Ryu Darragh:	Sure
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	it could actually be handled by a debug setting
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	You'll also need to have separate messeage loop for each window...
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	but would take ages to test everything
[16:05]	Ryu Darragh:	The camera and movement HUDs should remian on the client window..
[16:05]	Ryu Darragh:	Yes..
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	and there are bits that don't comply that'd have to be refactored...
[16:05]	Ryu Darragh:	Memory allocated to relatively static things like menus is no big deal
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay. Any more topic ideas? We've got some good ones here
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Avatar scanner? Dale Glass says he'll be making a newversion of his client.
[16:06]	Ryu Darragh:	Even with my heap maxed after a prolonged session, I can still cough up many megs for other stuff
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	an extra tab for People Places separately in Profile
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	Window Animations!
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	the notes is useless but the profile could contain more info like costom pages (tabs)
[16:08]	Ryu Darragh:	O.o
[16:09]	Ryu Darragh:	You mean have a tab to actually browse someones personal web page instead of a link?
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	avatar scanner sounds fun, actually; there's a lot of creative feedback that could be given there as far as appearance/minimum functionality goes, which would help get solidified faster
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	mmm..no. I think that means an extra tab to showcase your favorite residents.
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette: Like, expanding the Picks into different categories, and having tabs for favorite people, favorite places, etc?
[16:10]	Ryu Darragh:	Ahhh.. like the YouTube friends list and so on
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	yyes
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	"here are my slaves"
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	sort by price?
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[16:10]	Ryu Darragh:	Here is my truncated list of friends and the ones that didn;t make it send me frowny faces.. :P
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, if you're into Gorean...
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe Ryu
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, we've got some good topics!
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	what about llGetPizza?
[16:11]	Charlette Proto:	I think people and places tabs would give personal and commercial benefite since people tend to mix or like me exclude commercial places from pics
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:12]	Ryu Darragh:	Had to make 2 more alts just to join groups I can't fit on my main account.
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's call it a day. Next week is the day the Lindens are supposed to visit. se if Benjamin shows up!
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	/PIzzahut, wasn't that in wow or somethying?
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	See you!