User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Feb 07

[8:36] Zero Linden: hello all
[8:36] Rex Cronon: hello zero
[8:36] Wyn Galbraith: Tree, Squirrel! Zero! everyone!
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: howdy!
[8:36] Anders Falworth: Hi, Zero.
[8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Morning teacher
[8:37] Neas Bade: morning Zero
[8:37] Wyn Galbraith: is trying to get use to the new communicate button in windlight.
[8:38] Zero Linden: Welcome all to my office hours - we're here to discuss tech and architecture - the transcripts are posted publically (thanks, Tree!) - speak freely!
[8:38] Zero Linden: Hadn't said that all in a while... :-)
[8:38] Wyn Galbraith: flips on the Tree recording machine.
[8:38] Tree Kyomoon: /ow that tickles
[8:40] Jingyi Davies: Hi
[8:40] Jingyi Davies: lol
[8:40] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:40] Jingyi Davies: Hi back Rex lol
[8:41] Zero Linden: Well, all, I have no particular agenda
[8:41] Nathan Zetkin: Zero, would you like to discuss VWIF scope with me some time?
[8:41] Zero Linden: I've been thinking about global identity.... though I don't have anything concretly designed - just lots of swirling throughs
[8:41] Zero Linden: Nathan - sure
[8:41] Zero Linden: Though
[8:41] Zero Linden: perhaps we should discuss the VWIF here a bit
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: hey lets talk HTTPRequest and cookies!
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: caffine zero, caffine...
[8:41] Nathan Zetkin: ok
[8:42] Wyn Galbraith: sips her well earned coffee.
[8:42] Squirrel's Fortune: Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[8:42] Squirrel's Fortune: Cookie: It takes a lot of time to be a genius, you have to sit around so much doing nothing, really doing nothing. -- Gertrude Stein
[8:42] Zero Linden: How is it that you can tell that I've only had one RL cuppa this morning?
[8:42] Nathan Zetkin: I would be interested in hearing what others think aout it as well
[8:42] Zero Linden: Okay then, the VWIF
[8:42] Nathan Zetkin: hehe on number 2 here
[8:42] Wyn Galbraith: went to the pot at work and all were empty.
[8:42] Arawn Spitteler: had an idea, of Sims without Physics: With the Grid Opened, a lot of Private Schools should have student maintained displays.
[8:42] Zero Linden: So, as some of you may know, IBM called a group of about 30 companies together the day before October's Virtual World conference in San Jose
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: until they get H4 past beta, drastic changes to physics won't happen
[8:43] Zero Linden: We all got in a room (60 of us) and spent the whole day talking about what we'd like to see from Interoperability
[8:43] Wyn Galbraith: Would have loved to be a fly on that wall :D
[8:44] Zero Linden: It was an interesting mix of folks: Autodesk, Sony at Home, HiPiHi, Motorola, Intel, Raph Koster, etc....
[8:44] Zero Linden: It was clear that interoperability meant quite a different range of things:
[8:44] Wyn Galbraith: When I worked at Autodesk they gave up on the virtual worlds. Just stayed with 3D. Are they changing their minds again?
[8:45] Nathan Zetkin: and quite a challenge too
[8:45] Zero Linden: to some it was a continued *cough*war*cough* discussion between Colliad and X3D formats
[8:45] Zero Linden: To others it was about moving your avatar shape to a zillion differnt places
[8:45] Zero Linden: to others it is integration between the 2D Web and the metaverse
[8:46] Zero Linden: to others it is about being able to walk from one world into another
[8:46] Wyn Galbraith: It's like blind men feeling the elephant.
[8:46] Zero Linden: Yes!
[8:46] Jingyi Davies: when will the walk from one world into another world be possible.. when do you think it may be ?
[8:46] Zero Linden: The outcome was that several organizations wanted to form a consortium to work on such standards
[8:47] Tree Kyomoon: I guess no one talked about using virtual worlds to explore multidimensional mathematical representations and visualization?
[8:47] Zero Linden: The result so far is VWIF: [1]
[8:47] Nathan Zetkin: another way to look at is a virtual world browser
[8:47] Zero Linden: At this stage a core group is trying to hammer out a charter and agreement
[8:48] Nika Talaj: set up one of these once, what a circus!
[8:48] Zero Linden: This group is currently modeled after the AJAX consortium - so it is sort of an industry organized group
[8:49] Zero Linden: And that is about where it stands at present
[8:49] Goldie Katsu: thinks she needs to poke work a bit harder to see if it will move faster.
[8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: needs to find work to poke in the first place
[8:50] Zero Linden: Jingyi / Nathan - my vision would be that one would think of it less like a worm hole to anouther world, and more like a TP to a very far away continent - I'd like there to be a lot of continuty for the user
[8:50] Zero Linden: and I think that reality is less than a year away
[8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: The SL protocols (for example) need to be completely documented for that to happen
[8:51] Wyn Galbraith: Really? Less then a year? I would have said 5 years.
[8:51] Karen Palen: I would think that a TP/ Worm Hole would have a lot fewer issues than actually trying to "walk" in real time from one to another!
[8:51] Jingyi Davies: wow, would it be like the teleporter they have in Entropia Universe and cost us money to use it or it willbe free of charge, in the spirirt of SL
[8:51] Tree Kyomoon: would that mean external open source avatar save/creation tools can come up?
[8:51] Wyn Galbraith: gets all excited.
[8:51] Zero Linden: Sai - I'd rather document newer, saner protocols that SL migrates to
[8:51] Rex Cronon: so u could tp to WOW and back?
[8:52] Wyn Galbraith: Wormholes.
[8:52] Zero Linden: But yes, this next set of protocols wil be - must be - thouroughly doucmented
[8:52] Goldie Katsu: Yay!
[8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I'm documen ting the current ones because its impossible to move from A to B in increments without knowning the value of A
[8:52] Anders Falworth: this is the point of the group, to agree on these protocols?
[8:52] Anders Falworth: the working group, I mean.
[8:53] Zero Linden: Rex, I don't know if WoW would be interested in such a proposition
[8:53] Couples MultiAnimator: v2d whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
[8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: and some protoco.lls are going to be very difficult to change, like group IM
[8:53] Fumon Kubo: I would believe that the working group would be most interested in publishing standards to which protocals can be developed around and applied to a transfer API.
[8:53] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if WoW would be interested in a sales presence, in-world
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: we should get CYAN engaged now
[8:54] Zero Linden: Anders - the VWIF (as it has come to be known: The Virtual World Interoperability Forum) - hasn't even determined what areas to have interoperability
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the most obvious one (and most difficult) is gorup IM
[8:54] Zero Linden: it may be that they create a working group on only avatar shape standards - that may not even result in a protocol, just a standardized format
[8:54] Nathan Zetkin: yes IM is a big issue
[8:54] Anders Falworth: ah, ok.
[8:54] Nika Talaj: CYAN?
[8:54] Tree Kyomoon: [2]
[8:55] Zero Linden: In theory, that is the kind of thing that the VWIF could work on - but I don't see it taking up something as ambitious as TP between worlds at this stage
[8:55] Wyn Galbraith: Myst!
[8:55] Wyn Galbraith: Uru
[8:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Comic Osmo. Myst is Passe
[8:55] Nika Talaj: (ty tree)
[8:55] Zero Linden: I think they would wait for us (LL + You = AWG) to show working systems and then they'd want to expand from there
[8:55] Naomi Babcock: Holy cow.. idropped into a linden meeting about cross-systems?
[8:55] Wyn Galbraith: thinks Myst grandfathered the look.
[8:55] Nathan Zetkin: also there is an issue of moving assets between worlds and running scripts
[8:55] Zero Linden: Naomi - welcome to my office hours
[8:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I spammed teh topic to 10 groups...
[8:56] Naomi Babcock: I was coming to look for something i saw on torley's video, hehe..
[8:56] Zero Linden: Torley's land is around the bend....
[8:56] Zero Linden: But come and be welcome
[8:56] Zero Linden: we talk about this sort of thing twice a week here!
[8:56] Saijanai Kuhn: and AW Groupies talks about it a third time as well
[8:56] Fumon Kubo: At the moment we should be prioritizing things which we would want to transfer between worlds and systems and what would be reasonable given the huge variety of workable worlds that are likly to arise.
[8:57] Naomi Babcock: cams off, but stays put
[8:57] Jingyi Davies: why do you need to keep the shape of an avatar? isnt it easy to make a guest avatar? like somekind of space suite that you wear to move through the worlds?
[8:57] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates teh guest-ruth avatar
[8:57] Zero Linden: Well, I don't know about you, but I've become kinds of attached to my shape!
[8:57] Naomi Babcock: Ditto!
[8:57] Naomi Babcock: i like my look!
[8:57] Nathan Zetkin: well each VW may have specific policies about avatar appearance, penguin world for example
[8:57] Fumon Kubo: It's not a transfer of identity if you are a different person entirely when you arive.
[8:58] Nathan Zetkin: your identity should be preserved
[8:58] Karen Palen: I like mine too, but I get a lot of grief for wearing it :-(
[8:58] Zero Linden: I would prefer, for most virtual world events and experiences that I attend, no matter what world, to appear as me, with my name and shape, and preferably my clothes and attachements
[8:58] Anders Falworth: I would think it would be the point to be the same person when you arrive somewhere new.
[8:58] Nathan Zetkin: we all would I think
[8:58] Jingyi Davies: yeh but you are talking about going from one world to an other lol ... in RL we cant go other planete without wearing spacesuites lol
[8:58] Nika Talaj: The trick with interoperability groups is to find the lowest acceptable standard and start there.
[8:58] Nika Talaj: Not the BEST interop standard.
[8:58] Tree Kyomoon: unless the virtual world you are going to is heavily themed of course
[8:59] SS Sakai: this may be possible with an Avatar standard (most likely with higher structure than SL) and then dumb down
[8:59] Arawn Spitteler: Open IM sounds like it would be an upgrade from AIM
[8:59] Fumon Kubo: How this would be achieved given that tools aren't even available to manipulate the ruth avatar mesh to the in-world sliders...
[8:59] SS Sakai: ie a flexible bone count structure
[8:59] Zero Linden: Indeed - I think that is the real power that SL has shown us - that collaboration as a persistent identity is tremendously powerful
[8:59] Goldie Katsu: Well you could have both - some worlds will have avatar standards and be able to transfer objects designs etc between worlds. But some worlds will just be one browser that lets you access a world with a different shape and you jump into the av that you have set up as your connection in that world. (With wh
[8:59] McCabe Maxsted: sounds like an identity standard then
[8:59] Tao Takashi: Hi
[8:59] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:59] Fumon Kubo: A passport.
[9:00] Nika Talaj: Would SL use the same standards to move between different Linden-based grids?
[9:00] Tree Kyomoon: I dont know of a lot of other worlds with the exact same purpose as SL ...Most of the others are games that are heavily themed are they not?
[9:00] Tao Takashi: reminds me of the discussion I am just coming from via Skype. the dataportability group (dataportability.org) is trying to get their scope right :)
[9:00] Zero Linden: I think it is the cross of persistent identity, and presence that make this work
[9:00] Nathan Zetkin: the appearance of an avatar may be dictated by world policy but by doing thaat they may lose popularity
[9:00] Tao Takashi: linked data vs. centrally managed data
[9:00] Fumon Kubo: Defining your account, what you have allowed to be transfered to the global system and what you would prefer to appear as in a virtual world if the facilities allow for it and the local polocies are correct.
[9:00] Tree Kyomoon: the value of the other worlds is linked to the themes and storylines, individuality kind of conflicts with that
[9:01] McCabe Maxsted: not open croquet
[9:01] Nathan Zetkin: not many of us would be welcome in WoW with our current AV's
[9:01] Wyn Galbraith: I think it would be great to walk from SL or a similar world to a gaming world like WoW.
[9:01] Goldie Katsu: (testing to see if my chat is here)
[9:01] Nika Talaj: Zero, are you thinking of a global presence server as well?
[9:02] Tao Takashi: there might be different levels of interoperability
[9:02] Tree Kyomoon: SL has a chaotic asthetic that is much less immersive than a story/theme based area. The best islands here tend to be very themed and specific.
[9:03] Tao Takashi: and maybe a protocol which let VWs define what parts can be transferred and which parts not
[9:03] Zero Linden: Nika - I think global in the sense that if I know your identity, and are a friend, I should be able to find out about your presence no matter where I am
[9:03] Tree Kyomoon: not only that, Tao, but what you can do (alt cam ruins a lot of gaming experiences for example)
[9:03] Zero Linden: But not global in the sense of one server somehwere that rules them all
[9:04] Nika Talaj: (ty - that is quite a task in itself, Zero)
[9:04] Tao Takashi: I would like to have permissions for that so I can control who can know on which network where I am or whether I am online or not
[9:04] Zero Linden: Of courswe, Tao
[9:04] Zha Ewry: @tao> Yes. And with somewhat more flexability than we have today
[9:04] Tao Takashi: sounds all similar to what the dataportability group is discussing ;-)
[9:04] Dex Trenchcoat: tips his hat to everyone
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: Id be afraid that trying to reduce all virtual worlds to their lowest common denominator would diminish their individual value. Interop really only works for worlds exactly like SL where anything goes...chaos in a sense
[9:05] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:05] Nika Talaj: Hmmm that would in itself be a wonderful upgrade just to SL ... fine-grain control over presence
[9:05] Tao Takashi: they are not that much about presence but about how to link or synchronize your profiles and social graph
[9:05] Tao Takashi: and should they come up with some good solution which gets actually used (after all Google et all are also members of that group) I think SL should follow where possible
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: but people can identify themselves to their friends in context by chatting and talking, why automate it all with a big background database?
[9:06] Fumon Kubo: I would think of passing into less chaotic and more story driven and controlled worlds/regions similar to the show "Reboot" where they adapt to their environment whilest retaining their individual appearance.
[9:06] Tao Takashi: esp. as I think that the Agent Domain is mostly a Social Network
[9:06] Tree Kyomoon: I dont want some background system identifying me in all social networking contexts as the same person, I can do that myself as I choose to.
[9:07] Tao Takashi: sure
[9:07] Tao Takashi: it should be possible to also have 2 separate social graphs
[9:07] Wyn Galbraith: has to agree with Tree there.
[9:07] Tao Takashi: or have permissions which only let you show up on certain networks to certain groups of contacts
[9:07] Nathan Zetkin: I think we all have multiple identity but we choose who is allowed to know who the real identity is or which ones are connected
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: many seperate ones...and say I went into WOW, I would mabey make an avvie that had elements of this avvie, but I would choose how it was reinterpreted as I set up the account, again I wouldnt want it partially or completely automated at all
[9:08] Naomi Babcock: You know, i never thought of it that way..
[9:08] Naomi Babcock: instead of just "going" to WOW, you'd be going to play their story arc
[9:08] Arawn Spitteler: Our Friends List would have little buttons, to identify who could recognize us out-world?
[9:08] Naomi Babcock: or wahtever game you went to
[9:08] Goldie Katsu: THat is the challenge with social networks. I may have a social group in one community that I may not want to automatically follow me in another community.
[9:09] Tree Kyomoon: I guess I fail to see the value of this whole endeavor.
[9:09] Tao Takashi: not sure about the UI, this is probably a separate problem field
[9:09] Rex Cronon: wouldn't wow have to support lsl?
[9:09] Zero Linden: Well, the status quo of the internet is that you get a totally unique identity at every internet experience right now - and while you can choose to expose
[9:09] Tree Kyomoon: I think thats a good thing!
[9:09] Zero Linden: the relationships somehow, there is no real support for it
[9:10] Zero Linden: Tree - I think it is a good option - and we would always wnat to preserve it
[9:10] Wyn Galbraith: I still like the idea like in Uru where there is a central place you return to and to visit the other worlds you open a book (in Uru's case) but it could be some other symbol.
[9:10] Zha Ewry: Vital thing
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: I am totally in charge of deciding what parts of my identity are common across sites, networks etc.
[9:10] Zha Ewry: We live in diffewrent roles, sconstantly
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: I dont need technology for that
[9:10] Zha Ewry: and What tree just said
[9:10] Zero Linden: but I'd love to be Zero Lidnen, as me, in most worlds I visit
[9:10] Dex Trenchcoat: I think having at least some interoprabiolty is a great concept... and I'm sure they could comeup with ways to "opt" out if one wanted too
[9:10] Naomi Babcock: Ditto!
[9:10] Nika Talaj: Dex: agreed
[9:10] Zero Linden: and, for that matter, blogs I write, or cmment on
[9:10] Naomi Babcock: I'd love to be a cute neko girl with pink hair, no matter where i am
[9:11] Goldie Katsu: (The reverse problem in social netowrks is that there are so many that you keep on having to add the same friends on each one - when you do want the social group to transport to another environment.)
[9:11] Zero Linden: or Forums I lurk in
[9:11] Fumon Kubo: I for one would enjoy a federation service for virtual worlds in the least on a per-service basis.
[9:11] Nika Talaj: Yes, federation is the way to think of it.
[9:11] Goldie Katsu: The challenge is findign reasonable defaults - and allowing customization for the power users.
[9:11] Naomi Babcock: the problem i see is the avatar skeletons..
[9:11] Tree Kyomoon: you can be zero linden in everything you do, just use that as your handle every time you sign up with something
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: and make sure you own "zerolinden.com"
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: well, SL's stuff, being designed for completely open content creation, is probably the best default around
[9:12] Eric Reuters: Zero, this may seem like an obvious question, but I recently wrote a story about OpenSim and there was a lot of confusion in the comments. Can you clarify whether LL is committed to interoperability between OpenSim and the Second Life Grid, and at what approximate timeframe the first connections might get made?
[9:12] Naomi Babcock: for instance, if you look at the World of Warcraft commercials, they have giants, bison people, midgets..
[9:12] Nathan Zetkin: further more I think your AV should be context dependent as to who is viewing you
[9:12] Zero Linden: Tree - and yet, there is nothing stopping someone else from grabbing that name before me - or for anyone to know for sure it is the same
[9:12] Naomi Babcock: their skeleton/avatar mesh system is completely different, i imagine
[9:12] Tao Takashi: as said, this is mostly what the DP group is focusing on. They also have a policy group which thinks about what best practices are and how to deal with all that private data
[9:12] Zero Linden: and what is worse, even if I am Zero Linden on multiple grids (in fact I am!)
[9:12] Fumon Kubo: Which is why we need the standards. At least then we can develop a method for transmitting optional data from one world to another and allowing the world on the other end to pick and choose what it can use in its own world's system.
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: sure but that is the price of freedom
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: our wits decide the power of our brands.
[9:13] Zero Linden: I don't have the same freinds, nor a unified set of connections (groups)
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: if zerolinden.com is gone, choose another name!
[9:13] SS Sakai: 'whom would you propose set the standards?'
[9:13] Nika Talaj: I think having some tools to facilitate a single identity would be useful, Tree, one doesn't have to use them.
[9:13] Tao Takashi: for social networks there are actually alreada a lot of standards around
[9:13] Tao Takashi: what is missing is a process to glue them all together
[9:13] Zero Linden: I'm pretty sure using DNS as the sole source of personal identity isn't going to work -
[9:13] Anders Falworth: but having the ability to carry identity between worlds, doesn't mean you have to, Tree... if you prefer you could still sign up a fresh each time, each world.
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: as I mentioned earlier, there has to be provision for aliases in the identity thing. You might want to use an alieas for the same identity OR your name might already be taken
[9:14] Nika Talaj: lol zero!
[9:14] SS Sakai: I tend to agree (zero)
[9:14] Goldie Katsu: yeah I can agree that DNS would not be the way to go.
[9:14] Tao Takashi: there is also lots of discussion how to define identity
[9:14] Tao Takashi: many of course say OpenID
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: we have lots of tools already, I guess I just see much more important things SL should be doing to keep itself viable
[9:14] Arawn Spitteler: Some sign up fresh, each time, in this world
[9:14] Melchoir Tokhes: I think the DNS thing was mentioned just as an example
[9:14] Tao Takashi: but my mother does not know what that is
[9:14] Goldie Katsu: Next someoen will suggest using an IP address as a means of authentication. :)
[9:14] Tao Takashi: so it's more going towards email which might link to an OpenID
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: name@Secondlife.com has been mentioned
[9:15] Tree Kyomoon: I dont mind logging in to SL uniquely, I like the separation and I wouldnt want to be forced to have one login for all systems
[9:15] Tao Takashi: because everybody usually has an email address and it's natural to use this as some sort of identification
[9:15] SS Sakai: this can be a problem why should a sole identity being avatar be linked purely to 1 email?
[9:15] Melchoir Tokhes: Personally, I'm in favor of using UUIDs for IDs and allowing duplicate names
[9:15] Tao Takashi: it can also be linked to many emails
[9:15] Nathan Zetkin: OpenID may be one option
[9:15] Tao Takashi: or openids
[9:15] SS Sakai: (or the reverse)
[9:15] Tao Takashi: in fact mag.nolia.com can have multiple openids to log you in
[9:15] Tao Takashi: (or none, then using normal user/PW)
[9:15] SS Sakai: We use OpenID in our new site
[9:16] SS Sakai: as well as LiveID
[9:16] Tao Takashi: which is good because if you stop to trust your openid provider of choice then you might have a problem if it's used all over
[9:16] SS Sakai: but allow multiple AVatars to be tied to this
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: right but if a floppy disk with all the open id info got stolen from magnolia.com then a bunch of crooks could have your id on every open id system right?
[9:16] Tao Takashi: multiple avatars should also be possible but maybe is implementation specific..
[9:16] Tao Takashi: like with SL you might be able to control all your alts with one openid
[9:16] Nathan Zetkin: well an ID server will necesarily be extremely secured much as a banking site
[9:17] Tao Takashi: that actually would give some benefits in inventory management etc.
[9:17] Dex Trenchcoat: that would be nice
[9:17] Tao Takashi: many games allow you to have multiple characters per account
[9:17] Zero Linden: Tao - I use the "my mother" test all the time
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: theres disadvantages to alts all tied to one account though
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: what if you dont want to show a relationship at all anywhere between them?
[9:17] SS Sakai: then u create 2 id's
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: I thought that was the point of alts for a lot of folks
[9:18] Tao Takashi: or the implementation allows you to hide these relationships
[9:18] Tao Takashi: it's not clear that the openid needs to show up in public
[9:18] Tree Kyomoon: well they have to be connected somewhere
[9:18] Zero Linden: So, one thing I don't like about OpenID - is that the domain name owner basically owns all the IDs under it
[9:18] couch sit: 1 RED.: Eric Reuters, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[9:18] SS Sakai: our system currently has no recognisable relationships except to yourself
[9:18] SS Sakai: (in your avatar toolbox)
[9:18] Tao Takashi: Zero: but you can at least use delegation ans use your own domain name as an openid
[9:19] Tao Takashi: and I need to read up on the email mapping proposals our there, maybe this will be different with them, too
[9:19] Tao Takashi: or you use iNames or something like that
[9:19] Dex Trenchcoat: true enough... but how does one get around the wide variation of game engines? I.e. how could you render your SL avatar in WoW and vise versa?
[9:19] Nika Talaj: How does that help, Tao?
[9:19] Tao Takashi: you might be able to use YADIS to define how things are handeled
[9:19] Dex Trenchcoat: or is this mainly about sharing info rather than Avatars?
[9:19] Tao Takashi: but I never really looked into YADIS or iNames
[9:20] Tao Takashi: Nika. What exactly?
[9:20] Tao Takashi: using delegation?
[9:20] Nika Talaj: yes
[9:20] Tree Kyomoon: /I think interoperability should be minimal and folks should be wary of it. The internet's power is the individual nature of every site, every app. Multiculturalism beats a melting pot every time.
[9:20] Nika Talaj: domains
[9:20] Tao Takashi: it helps nothign against the owning but it does not show up directly ;-)
[9:20] Tao Takashi: and it's easier to change your provider then
[9:20] Tao Takashi: so you are not bound to one
[9:20] Nika Talaj: ah, got it. but is that zero's concern?
[9:20] Tao Takashi: not sure ;-)
[9:21] Zero Linden: Yes - I think Tao has it it
[9:21] Melchoir Tokhes: Personally, I think this degree of interoperability is a pipe dream. Effort should be reallocated to more rewarding tasks.
[9:21] Tao Takashi: Tree: but then again imagine every company would have their own VW, wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of interoperability. It's already annoying with social networks but it adds to it if you have to redefine your outfit, too
[9:22] Zero Linden: I'm pretty sure that once I start being "Joe Avatar" - I'm going to want to ensure that *I* control that
[9:22] Nika Talaj: Maybe there could be a lowest common denominator interoperable avatar definition, with a way to "derive" that from your SL avatar, for example.
[9:22] Zero Linden: even if I delegate the control to some company to host the bits - I need to own that ID, not the company
[9:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Melchoir, thats what folks said about the WWW
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: they do have some interop, its called ethernet. They can build interpreters for pretty much any stream of electrons that comes over that wire
[9:22] Fumon Kubo: There is the posibility of making the hosting of identity data by personally chosen online service "repositories" which you may upload data from compatable worlds. These would have to be authenticated and trusted by the world in question but once uploaded could be downloaded to another trusted app by pointing to the correct account.
[9:22] Tao Takashi: with delegation you can control, that your openid points to the provider of your choice or you are even your own provider
[9:22] Zero Linden: So that If I decide to take my bits elsewhere, I can
[9:22] Tao Takashi: but that's for experts
[9:22] Zero Linden: Now, the DNS system currently does that
[9:22] Tao Takashi: not my mother ;-)
[9:23] Tao Takashi: with delegation you indirectly have DNS in there ;-)
[9:23] Tree Kyomoon: I like the anonymity of electrons...Im glad they dont have uuids yet.
[9:23] Zero Linden: but it assumes some amount of trustworthyness on the part of registars
[9:23] Nika Talaj: Wow Fumon, complex...
[9:23] Zero Linden: and a certain technical sophistication on the part of domain name owners
[9:23] Tao Takashi: the other things is if services allow people to add multiple openids for identification
[9:23] Karen Palen: are we getting bak to the multi-layered approach that was used to define the Internet in the fist place?
[9:23] Melchoir Tokhes: Yeah, and now the WWW mostly sucks
[9:23] Tao Takashi: then you also can quickly change your provider and are not lost should one go out of business
[9:23] Melchoir Tokhes: it's filled with corporate feces
[9:23] Fumon Kubo: It provides the user with a level of choice as to the level of security they associate with their identiy and can choose where and when to make it global.
[9:24] Melchoir Tokhes: SL still enjoys a relatively corporate-free feel
[9:24] Karen Palen: Each layer defines and handles some specific sub-set and "plugs-in" to the higher/lower layers?
[9:24] Melchoir Tokhes: as I suspect other VWs do too
[9:24] Nika Talaj: nods. Adoption of that would be an issue, tho, Fumon.
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: the internet is an exact reflection of us. If we dont like our reflection, we have to change.
[9:24] Tao Takashi: with data portability the internet would finally be your only social network, not 100 separate ones
[9:24] Tao Takashi: (if you choose to use that of course)
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: thats a utopia I dont share Tao
[9:25] Melchoir Tokhes: Same here, Tree
[9:25] Tao Takashi: I see more political issues around the interoperability aspects esp. in VWs though
[9:25] Tao Takashi: most of them still like to be walled gardens
[9:25] Tree Kyomoon: diversity and interop will always be at odds
[9:25] Rex Cronon: i dindn't create the "internet" so it can't be a reflection of me
[9:25] Fumon Kubo: I'm just trying to think of keeping the rights of content creators while still allowing the user an individual level of control over their original content. Say, they can download all content created or allowable to them to their local system as well and the trusted sights only used for interoperable "rights- only" content.
[9:25] Zero Linden: I think Tree and Mel. are misinterpreting Tao - I don't think he is saying you only get to have one - that you *can* have one if you choose
[9:25] Zero Linden: Right now, I can't
[9:25] Tao Takashi: to say it with David Recordon: "We always start in a centralized world but we always end up in a decentralized one"
[9:25] Melchoir Tokhes: Rex, "we" created the internet, and it is a reflection of "us"
[9:26] Tao Takashi: of course you don't have to
[9:26] Zero Linden: I must be different on Facebook than Twitter than my blog than SL
[9:26] Tao Takashi: and it can happen, Google and many others joined the data portability effort
[9:26] Melchoir Tokhes: Another thing that frightens me is that as networks grow, they attract the attention of government and regulation
[9:26] Tree Kyomoon: Rex, you, me, us, we define the internet by our behaviours, if you support and encourage others to support boycotting companies that advertise with spam, companies will stop advertising with spam because its not profitable
[9:26] Melchoir Tokhes: bigotry soon follows, and diversity is extinguished
[9:26] Dex Trenchcoat: I agree with Zero... having the *option* is great...
[9:27] Zero Linden: I have no option to not - even, sign, openID as used (little though it is used) doens't solve that - unless the sites expose the OPneIDs they relied on, which they don't
[9:27] Tao Takashi: there are many problems to solve of course
[9:27] Melchoir Tokhes: One approach suggestion...
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: its the thin edge of the wedge though...as soon as a few people sign on to a mass system, less profitable diverse systems will drop away
[9:27] Anders Falworth: openid is just authentication anyway, right? Not really identity.
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: RFID folks
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: its all headed there
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: openid is grease for that
[9:28] Tao Takashi: I don't think diversity will be killed by that
[9:28] Zero Linden: Tree - I'm pretty sure that we can architect a system that does both. I'd say that DNS is pretty successful at balancing these issues -
[9:28] Tao Takashi: in fact it might be stronger because you don't need to care about the social graph aspect in your app but more on the uses of it
[9:28] Zero Linden: And it has a lot we should model and use, but I don't think DNS itself is workable for most individuals
[9:28] Tao Takashi: if some libraries/tools emerge
[9:28] Zero Linden: Tree? please - linking RFID and OpenId is just rhetoric - there is no connection
[9:29] Melchoir Tokhes: Any network that intends on interoperating should have two types of accounts available... One for in-house visiting only, and one for pan-world visits, and the one that supports pan-world visits should conform only to a barebones spec nailed out by a consortium similar to the W3C
[9:29] Tao Takashi: I think avatars should have RFID chips implanted
[9:29] Zero Linden: Anders - OpenID let's you prove to a relying parth that you have control over a particular URL
[9:29] Tree Kyomoon: a unified identification system, they are both
[9:29] Tao Takashi: actually they have and they are UUIDs ;-)
[9:29] Melchoir Tokhes: while the in-house account would support all sorts of in-house features
[9:29] Zero Linden: You could treat the URL as an ID -
[9:30] Zero Linden: though most relying parties today treat the URL as an authentication token to be validated
[9:30] Anders Falworth: right, but in practicality it's *just* for authenticating to sites. It's weak "identity" that's all I mean....
[9:30] Zero Linden: So - I can use it to ahve a single sign-on token on multiple sites - but most sites make me pick a local, site specific identity (user name), and only publically
[9:30] Tao Takashi: there are some efforts with microformats etc. to also treat it as ID
[9:30] Zero Linden: identify me by that
[9:31] Zero Linden: hence, using OpenID, in practice, doesn't get me the option to have a common idenity on multiple sites
[9:31] Tao Takashi: (or via FOAF)
[9:31] Rex Cronon: i didn't make, i don't control it, i by myself can't change it, so how can u say i define it. is more like forcing me to use it the way it is
[9:31] Anders Falworth: right, I'm agreeing with you Zero.
[9:31] Tao Takashi: of course the sites need to expose it in a controlled manner
[9:31] Anders Falworth: That my identity on the site, is still controled by the site. I'm only *curtrently* authed by openid.
[9:32] Tao Takashi: or like FOAF's mbox hash
[9:32] Zero Linden: And further, to have portability with OpenId, I must be technical enough to get my own DNS name, and control a web site in that domain, and author some <meta> tags
[9:32] Zero Linden: A tall order for Tao and my mothers
[9:32] Anders Falworth: heh
[9:32] Anders Falworth: my mama couldn't do it. :-)
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: "COld Tao do it?"
[9:32] Nathan Zetkin: I think we can all assume that our real identities must be protected at all costs, but pseudo identities as we have here, we will control and own
[9:33] Tao Takashi: my mother would be happy enough to use Yahoo as their identity ;-) or in her case maybe T-Online
[9:33] Tao Takashi: but there should be ways to migrate your network away from that openid used
[9:33] Nika Talaj: So, no complete solution in Openid or DNS, but maybe OpenID could be used by sites as part of the scheme.
[9:33] Zero Linden: CTZMDI: "Could Tao and Zero's Mothers Do It?"
[9:33] Tao Takashi: and I am not the one to do it, the DP group tries to do it :)
[9:34] Goldie Katsu: Good test.
[9:34] Tao Takashi: and I am planning to do an SL meetup about it
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: I guess I like it the way it is now, the convenience promised by all this seems to be more for the benefit of corporations and goverments than individuals. It really seems like we're "solving" a very minor "issue " with a very heavy handed "solution"
[9:34] Zha Ewry: Not going to happen, if you need DNS> Just.. never
[9:34] Tao Takashi: I see many overlapping discussions here ;-)
[9:34] Tao Takashi: actually as said, my mother would probably use her email address
[9:34] Zero Linden: Tree - I have an experiment for you - or for everyone here, really
[9:34] Zero Linden: Go to this page
[9:34] Tao Takashi: but the same applies of course
[9:35] Wyn Galbraith: waits for it.
[9:35] rooobin McDonnell: HIHI
[9:35] Zero Linden: [3]
[9:35] Zero Linden: Sign up for an account on at least three of those public grids
[9:36] Naomi Babcock: I've been hearing about opensim.. is there one up and running we can actually take our avatars to?
[9:36] Zero Linden: Now try to be you in those worlds - try to be Tree thre
[9:36] Zero Linden: Tree*there
[9:36] Rex Cronon: [4]
[9:36] Naomi Babcock: Azure Islands is apparently working on opensim, trying to improve server usage, and and BREAK prim limits
[9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Naomi, that url will let you
[9:36] Dex Trenchcoat: Central Grid claims to be up but I cant ever get there
[9:36] Wyn Galbraith: Oh boy.
[9:36] SS Sakai: 'take' no but u can run it on your own pc if you want to play
[9:36] SS Sakai: [5]
[9:36] Tao Takashi: slinfo.de also started their own opensim or even grid
[9:37] Naomi Babcock: they claim it can run like.. 40 sims per server, where Secondlife is supposedly running 2
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: physics?
[9:37] SS Sakai: chuckles...
[9:37] Zero Linden: Naomi - we run one region per CPU + 512Meg RAM
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: with scripts and avatars?
[9:37] Zero Linden: Most servers are 4 CPU machines with 2 Gig
[9:37] Naomi Babcock: From what i heard, yes, saijanai
[9:37] Tao Takashi: it would be funny if they can run 40/server but no avatars are allowed ;-)
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: opensim doesn't support full scripting, dones't support prim rezzing, and doesn't support attachments
[9:38] SS Sakai: not yet at least...
[9:38] Naomi Babcock: well, they said it was a work in process, so..
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but when it does, 40 sims per cpu wouln't work
[9:38] Zero Linden: Well- before this turns into the OpenSim office hour - I'm going to bow out
[9:38] SS Sakai: please bare in mind it is Alpha and at 0.5
[9:38] Zero Linden: I'm late to my next meeting
[9:38] Zero Linden: see ya'll
[9:38] Tao Takashi: take care, Zeo!
[9:38] Anders Falworth: bye, Zero.
[9:38] Tao Takashi: Zero
[9:38] SS Sakai: cioa Zero
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, thanks for hosting this
[9:38] McCabe Maxsted: take care zero :)
[9:38] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[9:38] Nika Talaj: Thank you Zero.
[9:38] Jason Swain: Thank you Zero
[9:38] Nathan Zetkin: take care Zero
[9:38] McCabe Maxsted: very intreresting discussion
[9:38] Dex Trenchcoat: later... Thanks Zero
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: shameless plug time
[9:38] Nathan Zetkin: tahnsk everyone for your input
[9:39] Nathan Zetkin: thanks*
[9:39] Goldie Katsu: bye zero
[9:39] Goldie Katsu: Thanks!
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: If you have an interest in this, especially if you are geeky and want to contribute actual work, please join AW Groupies: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[9:39] Melchoir Tokhes: waves
[9:40] Nathan Zetkin: does anyone object if I share your comments with the interoperability forum?
[9:40] Melchoir Tokhes: well that's what I get for not paying attention
[9:40] Rex Cronon: hmmm, u don't have to be a geek;)
[9:40] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
[9:40] Wyn Galbraith: has to run now.
[9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: later Wyn
[9:40] Tree Kyomoon: ack got distracted for 1 minute and its all over!
[9:40] Rex Cronon: bye wyn
[9:40] Tree Kyomoon: ah well
[9:41] Wyn Galbraith: Just takes a minute Tree.
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Nathan, this chat log is up on the wiki within moments of its completion (usually)
[9:41] Nathan Zetkin: ok ty. I will use the link
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs
[9:41] Goldie Katsu: Later. Heading back to official work, which I hope will soon include this stuff.
[9:41] SS Sakai: I need to make a move ciao all

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Feb 07

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