User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-10-08

Topic

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for October 08, 2009.

Topic: Open Topic.

Summary

No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.

Links

• Kirsten Lee UI Snapshots (1, 2)
• No pie menu in leaked SL09 viewer
• Spherical virtual world by Ludocraft (another article, with video)
• Augmentation vs Immersion

Transcript

[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy :)
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	so! Interesting sidenote: a friend of mine recently had a ton of his products converted to no transfer prims due to a glitch. His solution? Copybot
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Woo
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	for backup do we just check creator?
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Creator and full perms
[15:04]	Charlette Proto:	hiya
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Charlette
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm, would there be any negative consequences to just making that creator?
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	trying to work out what you talking about
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh just a friend of mine is using copybot for legitimate purposes
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	ah yes, gray area
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Potentially, yes. Suppose someone makes a building tool that rezzes prims for people. The prims were created by the tool maker, but the tool user makes something cool out of them, then sells it with restricted permissions. The tool maker could get it and then export it, even though they didn't make the object, they just made the prims it was assembled from.
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	frankly I strongly feel one should have good tools (eg export complete linksets etc) so long as permissions are respected otherwise CopyBot Cryo and Neil should be banned
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's a bit of a stretch, though. It would be very uncommon.
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	yes and there are many excuses for allowing Intellectual Property theft
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth twitches at the mention of "Intellectual Property" "theft".
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	I was copyboted 2 days ago, you have no idea what it feels like till it happens in front of you
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy Mm, Gen, and Tech
[15:10]	Mm Alder:	Ahoy mates
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's worse than theft... but it's not theft.
[15:10]	Techwolf Lupindo lol "I would love for them to try to "copybot" me."
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy!
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	There are two Charlettes running around the grid now? Oh god
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ahoy peoples :-)
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Morgaine
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	yeah geneko, I know how lots of Open Source fanatics feel about intellectual property, but I'm not going to be put to bed on the issue of unique identity
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	How goes Jacek?
[15:11]	Techwolf Lupindo:	To prevent 'copybotting', don't hang out in welcome areas or grifter hangouts. :-)
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Ardy
[15:11]	Ardy Lay:	Hi. I just followed Morgaine here. No idea what's going on. :-)
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	sure Tech easy to say WAs are my life and the source of my expertise as far as UX goes
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Welcome to User Experience Interest Group, Ardy.
[15:12]	Techwolf Lupindo LOL
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh noes, copybutt!
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	cute Morgaine
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth has no idea what's happening either, though.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Melinda
[15:12]	Techwolf Lupindo grabs a copy
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's rather clever :)
[15:13]	Ardy Lay:	It needs a better butt.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	We haven't really started yet. Open topic today, anybody have anything they want to talk about?
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's great for annoying Luddites
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	You know, maybe if it diplayed the avatar's profile pic instead...?
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, needs a bit more cleverness in the script, would be fun
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yowza Iufpleh!
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	the new map/radrar in Imprudence and some of the emerald features etc could be a good topic
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Take a copy so I can derez it to not be in the way
[15:14]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	hi
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi luf
[15:15]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	Hi Morgaine
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy luf!
[15:15]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	lol Hi all
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hmmm, should be on Impru for this OH
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	You should be on Imp 24/7! >_>
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	BTW any plans to rebase Imprudence from Songlobe to get better FPS
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted pulls snacks from the oven. Ahhh, okay, ready :)
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	yeah I think the added features in Imp are great besides the pie menu and FPS
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not until they fix the problem Snowglobe doesn't load OpenSim pics...
[15:17]	Ardy Lay:	Before going there, look at open issues on Snowglobe.
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'd hate to lose our opensim support
[15:18]	Ardy Lay:	SNOW-269 is not something you want to import, my guess.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	new Kirstens viewer is a great example of how bad the UI skin can be - shocking
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's a Linden already working on the OpenSim problem, though. But yes, there might be other problems.
[15:19]	Mm Alder:	I didn't know Kirsten was still building viewers.
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	source link pls? :)
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	Snow performance is great, but I agree on OpenSim issue being a necessity in Imp
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	yeah Kirsten came back to it with a shocker
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, we're not going to break OpenSim compatibility. If we can get Snowglobe without breaking compat, we'll do it.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	graduated cyan backgrounds with gray text and crashes like mad with any graphic tweaking
[15:20]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	dont think Kirsten stopped tinkering, but was for own and close friends private use
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	wb morgaine
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey OO
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy OO!
[15:21]	Opensource Obscure:	hey everybody
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wow, for once the seats are almost all taken.
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	there was a bit of a quiet time in releases even she said so on the blog, but her skin is shit anyway
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ty McCabe
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Now we just need to pull Strife Onizuka over....
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	How shitty is it?
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	You're a cloud to me Charlette, everyone else fine
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	OpenLife is her focus, but their viewers are normally closed/fixed so I don't know why she bothers
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	OK morg I'll do edit
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Eh, it doesn't look *that* bad. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pxONq6Nr7Uo/Ss2laTztILI/AAAAAAAAAPo/D4zbiIXiRHA/s1600-h/211_001.jpg
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	You appeared Charlette, tnx :-)
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pxONq6Nr7Uo/Sr8TcJqQ43I/AAAAAAAAAPg/_wIIb9SLE4A/s1600-h/R16+build+305.jpg
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	wait till you try using it jacek (don't)
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	The gradients are a bit excessive, sure
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	WindLight Postprocess effects, huh. I wonder why that get dropped.
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted wonders what the plane is for
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	no kidding - I can't read it - cyan and gray text are about sa bad as one could make it
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	yeah I never got to see the postprocessing, couldn't use the menu
[15:25]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	there was huge outcry about Dazzle, lot of people use the new skin now
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe: Just a guess, but I'd say the airplane icon is for "fly"
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	besides the fact that it is supposed to be optiminsed for Nvidia but it crashes when you change the Hardware Settings and you have to replace the config file manually
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted was hoping you'd say 'rez private jet'
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	OK you look at it; I've never seen anything so bad
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	and I actually use Dazzle
[15:27]	Mm Alder:	Anything good in Kirsten's viewer?
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	silver skin that is
[15:28]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	Charlette you tried going back to the old skin?
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	well the toolbar is turned into a few buttons but icons are not easy to work out
[15:28]	Mm Alder:	I hate icons. I like text.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	I use the ugly warm grey on many viewers luf
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yay for ugly warm grey!
[15:29]	Secondlife Grid status update shouts: (html spam)
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	i prefer text too - no ambiguity and cultural dependency like icons have
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Have you checked Fast Timers in Imprudence beta? It has an immensely long State Sort, which no other viewer seems to have --- drops the FPS a lot it seems
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	I get about +70% FPS in Snow, but love the map/radar and a few other thingies in Imp
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted has been waiting to hear about the fast timer fix patch
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh drat, sorry McCabe, I was talking to Techwolf today and forgot to ask about that
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	tech was here before
[15:31]	Ardy Lay:	He still is, in a way.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	in a way???
[15:31]	Ardy Lay:	ARechwolf
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, lol ATechwolf?
[15:32]	Ardy Lay:	ATechwolf
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	He'll always be in our hearts. ... Also his alt is here.
[15:32]	Ardy Lay:	That's his alt
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	ah OK
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	For some value of "is" and "here"...
[15:32]	Ardy Lay:	He is also at another meeting.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Watch for signs of life so we can ask him :-)
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	OK what about the radial menu in Imp McCabe - as a user experience crowd we should be able to listen to the user outcry the LL using it received
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is there a topic for today?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	Open topic today.
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	personally I like to have detach and edit in the first level of pie (radial) menu like most other users
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Working on UI has a bit of a shadow over it these days, since nothing is known about viewer2.0
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	yes morgaine and most OHs are a farse these days
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	did you watch the vids morg
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	The "leak" one, think so
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tateru's?
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted would actually like to ask, has anyone been griefed recenty? And seen how the ui didn't handle it well and could have?
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	Linux and Mac people get a shiver when they hear Direct X FX are the new sweetner
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted had some fun on HIP today
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	McCabe???
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	not sure what you mean
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	I'm griefed daily
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	He means he was griffing ;-)
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	sim crashes viewer crashes etc
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	ah McCabe has a plugin on the enmpty slots of the pie menu 'crash viewer'
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	empty*
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	I have a plugin?
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Has any LL-derived viewer replaced the pie menu with something else ever?
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've always absolutely hated the pie menu
[15:39]	Ardy Lay:	Early viewers used a linear menu.
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	viewer 2.0 does away with it
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's pretty nifty
[15:39]	Ardy Lay:	It was like a drop down menu I think.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	I've always absolutedly loved the pie menu.
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[15:40]	Mm Alder:	McCabe how do you know 2.0 gets rid of pie menus?
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've used it, for one
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	!
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	let me find a pic
[15:40]	Melinda Latynina:	that was just a *very* early prototype
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	not going to go over it again (have many times) but pie menus are by far the best for physical computing and alternative controllers - dexterity of selection is reduced
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccabemaxsted/3621537140/in/set-72157619668109264/
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	all other menu types need precise 2D pointing on screen pie only neds more/less control
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	from what I understand, the pie menu was always going to go bye
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted recalls hearing about that long before the "prototype"
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	yes I've been hearing it for ages too McCabe
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	The pie menu is a pain to extend or add stuff to, or rearrange.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	SL's pie menu looks ugly, doesn't make sense and moves alot.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	yup LL don't understand radial menus like most people
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	paaaaaain
[15:43]	Mm Alder:	I can't believe 2.0 will replace the current UI. It has to be just an option.
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	Second Life™ pie is the ugliest in the world and the most oldfashioned (fixed 8 pieces)
[15:43]	Melinda Latynina:	the pie menu also looks like crap in other languages when thing don't fit into their slices
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: they're an ergonomic disaster, being non-expandable, requiring pattern matching around a circle that the eye/brain does not do well, taking up too much real estate, and requiring multiple levels if you have more than 8 or so entries.
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Don't count on it, Mm. Providing support for 2 different UIs would be "expensive".
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	not to mention when ony 7 or 9 options are appropriate; 8 is annoyingly arbitrary
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Worst idea on the planet, the pie menu
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	radial (pie) menus are fantastic when they are made like Maya
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	and when you hide stuff from the user, for a lot of 'em it might as well not exist...
[15:44]	Melinda Latynina:	that said, LL would be smart to offer a preference to use pies instead of standard context menus just as a bone to the ppl upset about it
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	you obviously don't understand radial menus Morgaine, but I'll rest at that, no point
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	would depend on how much the code's changed
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Fixed 8 pieces isn't that bad. You don't have to aim your mouse for the menu pieces.
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: you are obviously not a power user so you don't understand the problem with pie menus, but I'll rest it at that.
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	So they can be used as a kind of mouse gestures.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	anyway it is gone so we may as well forget the pie
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	in the leaked version, it was basicaly the same xml, just different rendering
[15:46]	Mm Alder:	I don't understand why you have to click on a pie menu to get the next level menu.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	yes geneko - gesture (physical) computing is always based on radial menus
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mm: Lazy programmers ;)
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	the leaked version? is there a URL for download or filename to look for McCabe
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	s'gone
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	dunno if anyone else hosts it
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	ah shame
[15:47]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	how old was that leaked version pic?
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	you have it?
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	2009-6-12.
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	They're misusing clicking, that's all, going into a submenu mode instead of using the click as menu pinning. Yeah, it's poor
[15:48]	Mm Alder:	That leaked version didn't look anything like the SLCC demo.
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	were you at slcc?
[15:49]	Mm Alder:	No, I saw the videos.
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted wishes they had better images. I saw a youtube vid...
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	It seemed similar to me. The core changes were still there
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	this error was here last week and haven't seen it on other sims
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	The address bar. The new drawer on the side.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	the tube vid was very poor I agree, whole room not the screen
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	that is weird (address bar) but makes sense for Social Networking and web intergration etc
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hate stupid TP-capturing zones
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, haven't you heard? SL is Web 3.0.
[15:51]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	address bar looks like more real estate loss
[15:51]	Melinda Latynina:	does anyone have the youtube URL handy?
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Orly.)
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	I don't really trust what LL *says* about SL09, though. They've continually denied things that are obvious in the pictures, and still show up in later revisions.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	personally I think LL is going in a wrong direction since it is breaking immersion with all this web stuff
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	yes jacek the NDA act is a joke by now
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well for LL, SL is now FL
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Faillife?
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted thinks its quality'll depend on which linden has the final say...
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	After the leak, LL said "This is a really early prototype, it looks nothing like that now!". Then at SLCC they showed something that's pretty similar, then again said "But this is still not the final, the final won't look anything like this!"
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	The vision of SL as a "virtual world" was replaced in LL by trying to make SL into a 3D Facebook, a year ago
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Which I guess means they spent N months working on polishing something up that isn't going to actually be in SL09, eh?
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Morgaine - 3D facebook and this is a joke
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	it'd be interesting... a for shits and giggles viewer! to screw with the residents!
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	that'll teach 'em for nagging us to finish WindLight® and sculpties..
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tricky Lindens! It's a decoy viewer!
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	frankly I feel it is time to redesign the whole thing basing it on Google Wave for comms and adding 3D world position based waves (plus world rendering)
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think Facebook sucks. But probably more people use Facebook than Second Life, why is that? If SL looked more like the web, would more users stay?
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	didn't There look more like the web?
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm. Lots of people have pet goldfish. And others have pet dogs. But that doesn't necessarily mean everybody will want a pet fishdog. >_>
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	They are tricky, but we're guessing pretty well. :-) For example we guessed right about Zero --- on Tuesday he finally came out with it that he's not been working on interop for ages but on a new infrastructure for SL instead. That was our guess in Groupies way back.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also Second Life has been often categorized with Facebook, twitter, et al as a "social network" application. I don't think this is right, but maybe one of the Lindens think "well if this is what they want, we'll give them that".
[15:56]	Melinda Latynina wants a fishdog
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Squirrelfishes are better!
[15:57]	Melinda Latynina:	SL is a social network in the way people are connected to each other via friend relationships
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	Social Networking became a buzz term in media just about the same time as LL lost the plot and here we go we became SN app
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	a new infrastructure?
[15:57]	Melinda Latynina:	the graphlike nature is the similarity to facebook, etc.
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Melinda: by that definition, everything is a social network. If you use such broad definitions, words are no longer useful.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted hopes that means asset server reform
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	"It's social, it's on the net, it must be a social network!"
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	sure Melinda, but the inworld immersion is what makes Second Life™ work for most of us
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	this way anything on the web is a social network even wikipedia
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh. Social networks aren't an electronic invention. Social networks happen in RL. And in SL. And there are websites that make it easy to form them with new people.
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: methinks it's the messaging infrastructure, and any other bts that are currently massively non-scalable. Yeah. asset services needs to be decentralized as well --- if he has his clue hat on, he'll do that.
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not the traditional read-only websites. (And by traditional, I don't mean websites built in the early days of the web;.)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	from what T was saying in vids he is quite proud of the volume of shit in the asset servers but isn't doing a thing about it
[16:00]	Melinda Latynina:	there's marketting gold in those relationship graphs and that's what's fueling the buzz in the industry
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: and there's one other thing that I think they'll do, because I'm guessing that they're running scared shitless about it (they should be) .... MegaRegions a la Opensim.
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	I thought SL™ was supposed be all about "post-hype" now? Wasn't there a blog post or something about htat?
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	yes Melinda like i said before - it is all about industry buzz
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Cyberspace is never out of hype.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think SL would benefit from better social networking tools. The friends list and groups are pretty crude. My concern is that LL will forget that A) SL is not a website, and B) there's more to SL than just the social networking aspect.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	anyway to me SN means noob avs asking for sex (sorry Tech)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: LL: "Of course SL is not a website. It's a business meeting room"
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	:P
[16:02]	Melinda Latynina:	LL is trying to give their users what they want, and friend-related functionality is high on those lists
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahahahaha
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	agree with jacek and this is why I think Google wave could be used for comms in Second Life™
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Does a business meeting room need an address bar?
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: that's gotta be straight from some pamphlet
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: yup, found it under Linden Lab in Wikileaks :P
[16:03]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	if LL goes the social network route with no crativity, dont we all move to Blue Mars for the prettier pictures
[16:03]	Mm Alder:	Charlette, Google waves looks like document creation. What part do you think would help virtual worlds?
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette: I don't think Google Wave would fit very well with the communication models in SL.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	the live comms Mm and making a collaborative doc is not a bad idea either
[16:04]	Melinda Latynina:	we also need to see if ppl are even going t like wave
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mm: rich interaction between people. Jacek's spot on that the people interaction tools in SL are horribly crude. G/Wave could fix that
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	the Waves are not documents Mm they are more like a view at a CVS info
[16:05]	Mm Alder:	Why would I want a collaborative doc in SL. Collaborative builds yes, but docs?
[16:05]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	if google can scale it, people will love wave
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wave itself might not work out well, but the way multiple users work on the same content at the same time is what SL is lacking.
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	I don't think SL™ could support the kind of interaction wave will provide; they'd be crazy to try
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	MM: " LL: 'Of course SL is not a website. It's a business meeting room'"
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	builds are nothing if you can't collaborate on design mm = Wave is 100% applicable
[16:06]	Melinda Latynina:	SL *is* a giant collaboration
[16:06]	Mm Alder:	I think adding waves would be adding 2D tech to a 3D world.
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's a 3D collaboration though; nothing 2D ever works well in here
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	And for that meeting room use case to work, you gotta have collaboration on *more things than just builds*.
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Google Wave is an interactive, distributed, document tree, where each node can be any media type. It's not usually described like that, but that's what it is in CSc terms.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Does it even have to be 2D?
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Wave could be used to describe collaborative builds, yes. It could be pretty good at that, actually.
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	the greates problem we have in Second Life™ collaboration (one of the valid forms of user experience in SL) is the need to manually edit chat logs
[16:08]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	would be nice to search chat history
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	But Wave wouldn't work for SL chat. The communication models just don't match up -- SL chat is too free flowing, with people coming in and out of range, etc.
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	totally agree with Morg and can't see anything against using Waves as comms in Second Life™
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: you mean actually hook the Wave tree into building commands directly? Sounds powerful, although not sure how
[16:08]	Mm Alder:	Why edit chat logs?
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: Well, it'd mostly be a version control system and access control -- inviting people to be able to work on the build.
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, Wave doesn't exactly fit "virtual world". But we could have a mechanism that kinda like groups in online games, but instead of collaborating on taking out monsters you collaborate on some document or build
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	Mm obviously you don't think in terms of design = documentation of ideas (logs lead nowhere)
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	And people could come and go from this group.
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	No trouble handling free-flowing chat in Wave, it just tacks itself on the end of its current chosen branch, which could be a fork of an earlier thread.
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: ah, ok, makes sense
[16:11]	Charlette Proto:	I'm very impressed how Gooogle managed to use a CVS like backend for comms
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, Wave could work well with "chat room" type setups. Maybe someone would walk by here, and there'd be an icon showing that there's a discussion going on here.
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Which is access control...
[16:11]	Charlette Proto:	precisely Jacek 3D world location waves
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	If the plugin-api API gets extended with chat slots, presumably one could write a Wave-based plugin
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sounds interesting, hehe!
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	in chat range or explicit selection of waves
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Talking of advanced stuff ... http://www.maxping.org/virtual-life/other/-spherical-virtual-world-breaks-the-limits,-an-unrealistic-space-explained-by-ludocraft.aspx
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	this is how I see a future in virtual world comms
[16:13]	Melinda Latynina:	i think that SL and wave might both be great things but i have a hard time seeing why we need to jam them together. sounds a lot like how ppl were just complaining that SL + facebook didn't look like a good fit either.
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm glad that for some people, VWs aren't all LL's Flatland
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe, yes. I was thinking the same thing, Melinda.
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's a realXtend + Opensim mix
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Morg, abstarct spaces (comm nodes) are just as valid
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	The same group that thinks turning SL into a social network website is bad, discussing how turning it into a collaborative text website would be good. ;)
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Melinda: Because LL wants to monetize SL in the workspace and for that they need better collaboration tools.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Video here - http://www.maxping.org/business/press-releases/tekes-offers-virtual-expo-3d-environment-open-for-everyone-.aspx
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	Jacek i feel giving a good comm platform within a 3D world is not the same as making it into a webpage
[16:15]	Melinda Latynina:	SL for business meetings is clearly a great idea.
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette++
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	I agree, Charlette.
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Very different things
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Better collaboration doesn't mean "tack Google Wave on".
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	not just business meetings, design tasks benefit greatly from a live visual 3D environment
[16:16]	Mm Alder:	The main thing missing for collaboration is screen sharing. I'm guessing that's what the Media API is for.
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	And perhaps even casual usage, like sharing pictures of your cat.
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Google Wave is the "new hotness" right now. It could be applied to many areas. But, like social networking, you have to think about how it would fit into the current system, to enhance SL without turning it into something else.
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	... dangit! Wrong picture!
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	a agree jacek, but the comms we have now are hopeless and Goggle want people to find new uses for Wave and Second Life™ would benetif greatly
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	MMOs have let people paste objects into chat for over a decade, for remote preview and examining. We're way behind, and Wave could help with that.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	This is how awkward to share a picture currently. For text? No way.
[16:18]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	a Wave for each group, get rid of the 25 group limit
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: next time you paste a wrong picture, make it VERY wrong please :P
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	groups are the greatest problem when it comes to growth for Second Life™ with current architecture
[16:20]	Melinda Latynina:	yes, group implementation desparately need some love
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let me ask something, since I'm really curious -- in what ways *are* LL making SL into a social networking site, and what is bad about it?
[16:20]	Mm Alder:	Morgain, if you can upload a texture, you can paste a picture. It's just a matter of programming.
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	I thought we were talking about collaboration and communication.
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	jacek I don't think it is 'wrong' as much as I think pitching Second Life™ this way is wrong as far as keeping the existing culture goes - new tools for the current population and culture would be a better approach
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: social networking as in Web-2.0 is entirely an RL phenomenon --- Facebook even went so far as to ban pseudonym (without success I think). There is no "virtual" in it whatsoever, in the sense of immersionism. That's what's wrong about it, for immersionists. Of course, for augmentistts, that's fine, but they're a subset.
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Immersionists are also a subset.
[16:22]	Mm Alder:	Jacek, actually I don't see LL doing much of anything. Talk, yes; action, no.
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	fluid collaboration tools enhance immersion so there is no contradiction
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Unless by "subset" you mean "fewer people"?
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette++;
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Immersionists are the superset, since they accept RL-based worlds as well. Augmentists in contrast don't acceptthe existence of immersionists separate from their augmentist world. Very different worldviews.
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm just wondering, because it occurred to me that we were talking as if LL was doing something, but I can't think of anything specific that they have done (or even say they will do) to give that impression. So am I missing something, or are we just making it up out of nothing?
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's what makes the augs a subset of the imms.
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	not so much 'doing' Jacek as changing the attitude
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Like, the address bar in SL09. That seemed to get some groans about "Oh, they're making SL into a website"
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	If you want the classic article on that, it's Henrik's -- http://slcreativity.org/wiki/index.php?title=Augmentation_vs_Immersion
[16:25]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	browser based viewer with a simple easy to use front end to attract basic social users
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	But we already have an address bar at the top, it's just a useless one.
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Good question Jacek. There might not be much done, but it certainly gives the bad vibes.
[16:25]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	a downloadable viewer with all creation tools for the heavy user
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	So is making the address bar more useful, but web-browser-looking, a bad thing?
[16:27]	Mm Alder:	Jacek, it depends on which problem you're aiming to solve.
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	my point is that SL's strengths revolve around avatars and not SN chat streams so SN hype puts a wrong spin for new users it will attract
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if the slight isn't out of that sense of "gee, there goes LL totally not understand SL™ again"
[16:28]	Mm Alder:	McCabe, they often admit that they don't. :-)
[16:28]	Melinda Latynina:	new users quickly figure out what they like and don't like about sl
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	So the problem is that these changes will attract users with a different idea about what SL is?
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	we already suffered the influx of new users who quit once they realise that without creative input they don't get respect from current users so I feel Sn hype is a bad move
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine, I think either you or the author of the article got the definitions of immersionist and augmentist wrong.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	yes jacek, current population will suffer and resent new residents
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	LL used to understand SL. Then a new bunch took over with a new worldview, seeing it as a "platform" and us as customers, instead of as a world populated with residents. So it's true enough. LL now doesn't understand SL.
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	anyone know what to mute to kill this error????
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	precisely Morg - Second Life™ = residents and their culture
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Any tools in Imprudence to detect broadcasting objects?
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette: But that doesn't sell.
[16:31]	Melinda Latynina:	i agree that LL currently doesn't understand it's users, but i also know that it would never be what it is today if there wasn't a business model that made sense
[16:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Except to people in "counter cultures" like furries, heh.)
[16:31]	Mm Alder:	I think the major way current residents feel slighted is that Linden tries to figure out what new to work on rather than listening to long standing requests.
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	Second Life™ has been growing faster than LL can cope with Geneko
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	agree Mm
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's a fair point, Mm
[16:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	True, Mm.
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	just look at UX issues
[16:32]	Mm Alder:	Remember the User Experience office hours? :-)
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	hiring outsiders made so many people butthurt
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aww, these were good times.
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well what they're doing with Viewer2.0 isn't even rational. They say it's to retain new users, because they're not growing much as the viewer alienates them. But they're forgetting some basic thing --- if they get a large intake of new people NOW, they're screwed. SL can't cope. Infrastructure has to come first.
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	weird thing is that i have a feeling LL read our logs
[16:33]	Melinda Latynina:	mm: i agreed with u that LL doesn't currently understand it's users and that's a big problem.
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	You are putting the logs on LL property... <G>
[16:34]	Mm Alder:	The Open Source office hour is now the Snowglobe office hours, and the main focus there is HTTP textures and Media API which came from Linden internal.
[16:34]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	are all the server updates we seeing not preparing for those infrastructure changes?
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	that is tech stuff Mm we are more concerned with the User side of things
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not exactly tech stuff, it's a change in attitude.
[16:35]	Mm Alder:	I'm just giving examples of Linden's changing viewpoint.
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	If it was different before that is...
[16:36]	Charlette Proto:	no way lufpleh, adult stuff is what screwed the whole thing and they are still working on the user experience separation
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	how is that different? Sounds like the typical attitude of LL will work on what LL wants to work on..
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Unfortunately, I think I know why they created plugin-api, and it's not for a good thing at all. It's because (my guess) so many new LL people come from Adobe, and they want Flash in the viewer, but it can't be put in a GPL viewer as it's closed. So they're gonna create an external Flash plugin for SL, closed source. (My guess)
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	Flash is a waste of time in Second Life™
[16:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	That never came to my mind Morgaine, but I feared someone other than LL will do this sooner or later.
[16:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	A properitary "killer plugin" that everyone just have to have.
[16:37]	Melinda Latynina:	morgaine: i bet there is a grain of truth is what you're saying, but more fundimentally the viewer is far too monolithic to maintain without heroic effort unless it is broken up into pluggable parts.
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi Fury!
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not a waste of time for the augmentists --- they all want Flash. Anything that links SL to RL is ++ for augmentists.
[16:38]	Fury Rosewood:	hiya
[16:38]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Fury.
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy fury
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Welcome to the User Experience Interest Group meeting.
[16:39]	Fury Rosewood:	ahhh okies
[16:39]	Charlette Proto:	Flash is static files; Second Life™ info and objects need to be dynamic
[16:39]	Ardy Lay:	AKA the We Agree to Disagree on Many Things group. :-)
[16:39]	Fury Rosewood:	:P
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Flash can be dynamic too. But that's not the point.
[16:39]	Ardy Lay:	But that is most groups I suspect.
[16:39]	Fury Rosewood:	pretty much
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Melinda: that's very true, and Merov's always been keen on factoring, as has Q. When we started talking about plugins for Imprudence, they were all ears in the OHs.
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	The point is that a closed source plugin could make Second Life a platform for the plugin to run on without other people being able to improve itis what's scary.
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	They know it has to be modularized. It'll never be stable until major functional blocks ar decoupled.
[16:41]	Charlette Proto:	agree with the closed code Gen, but Flash is the last thing I'd use
[16:41]	Mm Alder:	Geneko, these are just Media plugins meant to render proprietary media formats. It's not about modularizing the viewer.
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe not flash. Maybe some kind of Wave plugin we talked earlier, but properitary.
[16:41]	Melinda Latynina:	geneko: not sure why you're worried about closed source plugins because the viewer is open, and even if it were still all closed, we'd still use it
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	Mm, I never said anything about modularizing the viewer.
[16:42]	Mm Alder:	But the plugins can only display stuff.
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Melinda, Vivox have been a PITA for a long time.
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's another thing that hints at a closed source Flash plugin: they've made the plugin shell resilient to plugin crashing, it just reloads it .... I'd say that's to make it ready for Adobe Flash :P
[16:42]	Mm Alder:	Not very scary.
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Mm: Not necessarily! You could use a server to listen to events from in-world and send images out. Voila: A whiteboard!
[16:43]	Mm Alder:	That scares you, Geneko?
[16:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	ack, I gotta run
[16:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	I have to admit I'm too paranoid by now.
[16:44]	Charlette Proto:	byee McCabe
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Bye McCabe
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care everyone :) hope to see you all next week, too
[16:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Closed source plugins of this kind are very scary, because they run with full rights locally, not in a VM/sandbox. Although we can trace the syscalls, it's still a bit iffy.
[16:44]	Mm Alder:	I should be going too. Thanks for a good discussion.
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Missed McCabe, bah
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm not very afraid of that...
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Mm
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	bye Mm, thanks for comming
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: if you're not scared of running foreign executables on your box, you will suffer the consequences one day.
[16:46]	Melinda Latynina:	the plug-ins won't automatically install. you'll still need to do that yourself just like in firefox
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	But everybody are using this foreign executable, and if I don't install it manually I will lose major functionality!
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	honestly in my view Flash is another thing to run on a viewer wich isn't giving us one new thing and invites web devs to make lag with useless stuff
[16:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Incidentally, this is how Vivox is to me now.)
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Gen, vivox is exploited to get IPs and we can't do a thing about it
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Turn it off?
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Where's rebake in Impru?
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	turn voice off? hehe
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Jacek: "you lose major functionality".
[16:48]	Melinda Latynina:	charlette: don't install piggish plugins that you don't want, and no problem
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: Edit > Refresh Appearance
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks J :-)
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth wonders if Fury's tail is natually glowing or did he turn on autoglow.
[16:49]	Charlette Proto:	not sure what your point is melinda, I install everything as a rule and don't want to even think what is good/bad and what i'm missing out on by having made a wrong choice
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	A much better label, Refresh Appearance :-) Unfortunately one looks for rebake, hehe
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	basically i don't think we need more outside code integration now - we need to refactor and clean up the codebase first
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	hehe the 'rebake' term is so stupid
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	like rez
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe we should add a "Rebake Cake" menu item
[16:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, it makes sense from a technical perspective and isn't something you need to do by design.
[16:51]	Melinda Latynina:	u install *everything*?? well I have a firefox plugin for u that automates all your online banking. would u like it?
[16:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Believe it or not, people do give out bank passwords to third parties.
[16:52]	Melinda Latynina:	not me!!
[16:52]	Charlette Proto:	sure I like your attitude melinda - you are Linden or a griefer?
[16:52]	Melinda Latynina:	i'm an ex linden
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	kind of smell like one Melinda
[16:53]	Jacek Antonelli rolls her eyes at Charlette
[16:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	So that's why you never upper case the lines and have double exclaimation marks!
[16:53]	Melinda Latynina:	i know. i've been drinking the coolaid
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	so you a troll as well melinda
[16:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi Nakomis.
[16:53]	Melinda Latynina:	a troll? hm, i resent that
[16:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cut the attitude, Charlette, it's not appropriate.
[16:54]	Fury Rosewood:	very nice look nako
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	don't be concerned about my observations - this is the way I am
[16:54]	Nakomis Lycia:	Woof.. or.. rawr.. whatever sound fluffdragons back X3
[16:54]	Fury Rosewood:	hehe
[16:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Almost 5PM, I suppose we should adjourn so people can get to Andrew's OH
[16:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks for coming everyone, hope to see you again next week
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	anyway it is nice to see you join our crowd melinda, hope I don't make you feel like you are not welcome
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yup, time to annoy Andrew :P
[16:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, two hours, you guys must be tired.
[16:55]	Melinda Latynina:	thx charlette.
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	true jacek (thankies) Andrew's hour now
[16:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	#imprudence on Freenode if anyone is interested,
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	hope to see you more melinda
[16:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care all! *waves*
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	byee Jacek
[16:55]	Melinda Latynina:	ciao jacek. all!