User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 May 29

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  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: has the new release candidate which doesnt seem to be

crashing after 10 minutes of SL

  • [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Tara5 Oh (14m)
  • [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Cel Edman (1m)
  • [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Rex Cronon (19m)
  • [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Ivy Farber (19m)
  • [8:32] Arawn Spitteler: Dolf, Ellie, Byte & Bell, and the law firm grows

larger, as we type.

  • [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Knildrig Aabye (3m)
  • [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: How goes Sai? Good transcript from last Tuesday, pity I

missed it

non-techie groups and got 10 new members who didn't even know what AWG was, so it was an intro to AWG

meeting

but I can't get it to go past the stage of getting the seed cap from the SIM, so its still not quite there

yet

seed cap returns. Then we can add in my UDP handling code

Slade (9m)

  • [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Harleen Gretzky (10m)
  • [8:37] Cel Edman: Hello all people
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: Why, yes
  • [8:37] Tao Takashi: Sai: No, but I also wasn't really around as I did a training on

monday and today and was at the Metaverse08 inbetween (promoting OGP to Lindens ;-) )

  • [8:37] Mircea Lobo: really needs to make a callender alarm for these meetings
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: I was invited to a toga party - and this seemed to fit my image

better

  • [8:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, lucky guess then, I'm not much up on cultural

dressing :-)

  • [8:38] Tao Takashi: what I notice is that Linden's mention the IBM firewall project

but not the OGP

  • [8:38] Tao Takashi: and I wonder why ;-)
  • [8:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Mircea Lobo (5m), Zero Linden

(8m)

  • [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) AV Scanner range reduced to 20 meters,

scanning every 10 seconds.

  • [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) AV chat range notification is now OFF.
  • [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) All non-essential features have been

temporarily disabled.

  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: on the Japanese VW 2008?
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: Tao - because to the public, there isn't much to make a press

release about yet

  • [8:39] Zero Linden: not because we are in anyway not behind it... if that is what

you are wondering?

  • [8:39] Tao Takashi: but it would still be nice to tell people about this project,

maybe somebody wants to join

afaik

  • [8:39] Zero Linden: well, today we have a special agenda
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: well, OGP is barely to the stage of getting the first login

protocol to work.

reading the Tues transcript:: Since you said TP is heading towards becoming a single parametrised action

that covers region crossing as well, could we also make "Pls send me objects for cache prefill" a generic

parametrised request as well, so that it is not restricted to adjacent regions only? If it could be

requested from any arbitrary region, then we'd be able to prefill our caches for TP without black screen,

and we'd be able to have seamless portal objects as well.

  • [8:42] Zha Ewry: perches, and turns back to sorting out openSim code
  • [8:42] Zero Linden: Morgaine- I don't think that is restricted even currently -

once you can establish a connection (read: child camera) with a region, you can get stuff....

  • [8:42] Zero Linden: So - I think, in advance of the TP, you could pre-fectch
  • [8:42] Tara5 Oh: why is zha coding in a meeting?
  • [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: but I mean, at arbitrary distances, prior to TP

for example.

  • [8:43] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I think so long as the region itself doesn't object

- sure

for this meeting

  • [8:45] Zero Linden: Samuel - why don't you start us off with the current lay-of-

the-land for Media - and the approximate directions you are looking at for the future

Media with Samuel Linden (and perhaps other guest Lindens)

  • [8:46] Zero Linden: As always, the transcript is posted to the wiki afterward -

speak freely and speak in public

  • [8:46] Zero Linden: Lastly, just a reminder - at these meetings
  • [8:46] Zero Linden: Lindens often come to discuss future architetural directions

and ideas --

  • [8:46] Tao Takashi: and we expect them to be live tomorrow ;-)
  • [8:46] Quinn Houston: /so on
  • [8:46] Zero Linden: we do this have community involvement in our work and help make

it everyones

  • [8:47] Samuel Linden: begins furiously coding
  • [8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: and bug free the day before they're coded
  • [8:47] Zha Ewry: snorts and watches her OpenSim be oddly offended at a fake caps

handler ;-)

  • [8:47] Tao Takashi: "we just forgot to release it"
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: in exchange afford us the kindness of remembering that we are

being open about an uncertain future --

things change and it appears? ;-)

[1]

somewhere else that wasn't stagnating ;-) Change is good

bringing full and rich media support to second life

the new LLMedia Framework

  • [8:50] Samuel Linden: since then we have undertaken a comprehensive product

analysis to guide our thinking

  • [8:51] Samuel Linden: and from that we hope to have a complete design spec in the

next month

instead of what we think you want

far?

  • [8:52] Samuel Linden: so we met last week to discuss the initial findings
  • [8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: has fear of analysts
  • [8:53] Samuel Linden: and in a nutshell people want seamless media integration
  • [8:53] Tao Takashi: and how was the analysis done?
  • [8:53] Samuel Linden: and our Business customers want document sharing in some

form

  • [8:53] Samuel Linden: and our Business customers want document sharing in some

form

  • [8:53] Rex Cronon: it depends on who u used as test subjects
  • [8:53] Morgaine Dinova: I see some Dilbert or xkcd links coming up ... :-)
  • [8:53] Samuel Linden: we got a bunch of patients from the San Francisco Mental

Health program

course based on the analysis

  • [8:55] Samuel Linden: but it has guided us in certain design decisions
  • [8:56] Samuel Linden: I will give you an example
  • [8:56] Samuel Linden: for some time we have been contemplating Shared Media as a

product

  • [8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: You could have simply read back the SL forums

(or scraped keyword stats from them) --- people have been saying what they want for 4-5 years :-)

going to be a MUST HAVE to compete with future competition from Google

  • [8:56] Samuel Linden: as most of you know the media you see on a parcel is

rendered locally

  • [8:56] Samuel Linden: Morgaine we did a good deal of that
  • [8:57] Tao Takashi: basically you just have to read my blog ;-)
  • [8:57] Samuel Linden: so the analysis came back basically saying that shared

media was really a few different experiences

  • [8:57] Samuel Linden: and so rather than focus on a single large initiative
  • [8:57] Mircea Lobo: likes parcel media for the most part. The only thing she would

find nice would be if in cases of Web Page or Image media you could assign ore then one url to a texture,

if that could be possible

  • [8:58] Samuel Linden: we chose to focus on two separate products: Link Sharing

and Document Sharing

  • [8:58] Tao Takashi: would like taking a media texture with you (HUD), more than

just one and of course Flash

  • [8:58] Samuel Linden: this allows us to better target functionality to the needs

of our stakeholders, rather than focus on a single monolithic strategy that never gets fully implemented

isn't called out in the analysis yet

detail - I imagine that different people here will guess they mean different things

  • [8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Products? More like design features. The word "Product"

introduces all the wrong connotations ... these things can't be introducing like you market a product.

order to me :)

  • [8:59] BlueWall Slade: vertical partitioning of a parcels media space??
  • [8:59] Arifi Saeed: Maybe it would be helpful to hear what Samuel has to say before

leaping in with comments and critiques, eh?

  • [9:00] Samuel Linden: so link sharing is all about communal browsing
  • [9:00] Samuel Linden: it is basically just a means to synchronize the current URL

on a prim

  • [9:01] Samuel Linden: part of this will be to enable in-world interaction with

HTML on a prim

  • [9:01] Zha Ewry: Except, that in many cases that won't be shared viewing at all, as so

much of the web browsingf experience is contextual

  • [9:01] Tao Takashi: ah, so you broadcast the next url to all the clients?
  • [9:01] Samuel Linden: so if I navigate to a new url on a prim, everyone will se

that change

"shared"

  • [9:02] Tao Takashi: yeah, what happens if you login to something?
  • [9:02] Samuel Linden: yes, cookies and authentication would NOT be shared
  • [9:02] Tao Takashi: (in case forms are possible)
  • [9:02] Samuel Linden: it is a very limited feature
  • [9:02] Tao Takashi: but then all the links would be broken
  • [9:02] Zha Ewry: And, if the links are broadcast
  • [9:02] Zha Ewry: you are actually goign to leak information that people may not want

linked

  • [9:02] Samuel Linden: however it solves a very concrete problem
  • [9:03] Tao Takashi: well, I guess people will learn not to login to things ;-) I

guess one needs to see it in action if this really is a problem

  • [9:03] Samuel Linden: again, this is not a monolithic solution to shared media
  • [9:03] Tao Takashi: at least you can design a webapp for that in mind
  • [9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: It's so depressing that you've concluded that

people want to be in this virtual world is to browse the web

  • [9:03] Samuel Linden: it is a single feature set that clearly defines behavior
  • [9:03] Samuel Linden: Morgaine, I did not conclude that
  • [9:04] Tao Takashi: for me it's not so much about browsing the web but being able

to create better UIs via the web

  • [9:04] Samuel Linden: the OTHER product
  • [9:04] Tao Takashi: will you also be able to talk back to SL from the webpage then?

e.g. I click a link and some script is triggered?

who would like to use web apps within the Metaverse. Applications that can't be or shouldn't be built "in-

world"

  • [9:05] Tao Takashi: and which you still can use or watch together
  • [9:05] Mircea Lobo: What I think would rock for web pages on prims is if you could

click links and write in text spaces

  • [9:05] Samuel Linden: for this we would enable image broadcasting to a secure

server, which would mirror that to interested parties

  • [9:06] Samuel Linden: this very specifically enables in-world presentations and

slide shows in a much more intuitive way than is now possible

wonderland can do, like shared desktop apps?

like the letters in a 3D letter cloud :)

  • [9:06] Tao Takashi: (I guess there are many security considerations with this)
  • [9:07] Emanuele Hax: I agree at all with Samuel.
  • [9:07] Arawn Spitteler: Entering Chat, to HTML on a Prim should be already

doable.

  • [9:07] Samuel Linden: so that is an example of a single domain that was broken up

into multiple projects based on Product Analysis

  • [9:07] Samuel Linden: we are also planning to deliver some sort of Flash support
  • [9:08] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: I know you have many such clients, and that's

what's depressing. Gwynneth LLewelyn calls you augmentists (see SL as nothing more than augmenting the

web), versus the immersionists who see virtual worlds as something distinct from RL, and lessened by

contact with RL.

yesterday

  • [9:09] Morgaine Dinova: Crashing on a prim is a must. And Flash hanging the

machine on a prim is absolutely essential.

  • [9:09] Tao Takashi: actually with Flash the VW interoperability with many virtual

worlds would be solved ;-)

  • [9:09] Callum Linden: rex: java is much trickier than flash - may come one day

but nothing planned for now

  • [9:09] Zha Ewry: For values of Epsilon approachign infinity, Tao
  • [9:10] Tree Kyomoon: actionscript 3 is ECMA so Java wouldnt really offer much more

I dont think

  • [9:10] Samuel Linden: Callum, anything you want to add?
  • [9:10] Cel Edman: would love to see flash support, and a bit of actionscript.
  • [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates a Squeak plugin in a html on a prim enabling

Croquet access on a prim --sorta

  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: and controlling scripts in-world via JS would be very nice
  • [9:10] Emanuele Hax: i think there's a middle way for the 2d/3d web. and SL can

give us both

  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: then you really could use it as UI instead of xytext
  • [9:11] Mircea Lobo: What id like to see like i said is full web browsing on a prim.

Being able to do on a prim's face what you cand on in IE or the integrated browser in sl

  • [9:11] Callum Linden: i'd be interested to know what else people would like to

see as media 'plugins'

  • [9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Flash is not a solution to anything, given that the SL

client is cross-platform and open-source. Unless you stick to very primitive Flash, there is no reliable

FOSS code to handle it.

  • [9:11] Tree Kyomoon: but embedding SL in flash/java/html or vice versa should be a

goal

this framework seems to incorporate that thinking into web browsing - is there a plan for shared secure

media browsing?

  • [9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Samel, not that I am aware of
  • [9:12] Cel Edman: For me somehow to make (interactive) animation in like flash/java

or whatever. and have them big on a wall in sl would be great. Most of my animations in java or flash are

only a few kb.

prim's face what you cand on in IE or the integrated browser in sl" and the previous comment about Apps in

SL being a requirement for SL's survival in the future are dead on. It's what every client we have spoken

with in RL says.

  • [9:13] Tree Kyomoon: PDF and flash will eventually be one
  • [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: sai janai chants svg before pdf
  • [9:13] Samuel Linden: Cel, any native Flash pugin would support .swf
  • [9:13] Cel Edman: second if scripted animations are possible.. like flash > I could

make dynamic like sculptimages > animated 3D models with millions of different forms

  • [9:13] JeanPierre Euler: oh PDF! all mathmatics physics edu is pdf-based
  • [9:13] Zha Ewry: An integrated browser, is only interesting ifi it leads to a shared

experience

  • [9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: gags at the virus that is pdf
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: anyone have ideas of how they'd use Flash in the shared

environment of SL? Flash as it sits doesn't really support that model

  • [9:14] Cel Edman: quicktime dropped flash support
  • [9:14] Emanuele Hax: question...if i have a company with a website...i pay 50

dollars/year for a website with full memory. if your idea will push out the 2d network...do i have to pay

200 dollars at month for a sim???? or things will change?

[2] - works for me here

  • [9:14] Zha Ewry: I think most people have very broken expectations about what they

will get from a window showing a web page which isn't part of hte shared experience

  • [9:14] Zero Linden: do you expect it to be like we are walking up to a monitor and

computer in RL and both users can grab the mouse and click?

  • [9:14] Tao Takashi: Zero: I mostly would like to stream into SL via Flash and watch

it together

  • [9:14] Tao Takashi: like conferences
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: or are you expecting that each of us has a private view of that

surface?

  • [9:14] Tree Kyomoon: svg is slow and not used very much. Not really any point to

SVG other than the poindexter factor.

  • [9:15] Emanuele Hax: lol. i understand nothin...too much people talking :D
  • [9:15] Tao Takashi: so I am more interested in this aspect not necessary playing

games together etc.

  • [9:15] Tao Takashi: (so it's the FLV part of it)
  • [9:15] Rex Cronon: svg can very usefull for creating GUIs
  • [9:15] Zha Ewry: The shared expeince notion goes way beyond games
  • [9:15] RJ Kikuchiyo: sounds like discriminating which users can see and who cant

see content displayed on a prim

  • [9:16] Mircea Lobo: As for the idea of flash working in sl... if by flash you meant

what i think (as in flash games you play on the web) this could be integrated with my idea; flash on a

primitive face. As in putting a .swf file instead of a .html

  • [9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: there is no working open-source flash plugin

for recent versions of Flash.

  • [9:16] Callum Linden: does anyone have strong opinions about how the control for

a shared media object should work ? some kind of baton passing perhaps? free-for-all?

dollars/year for a website with full memory. if your idea will push out the 2d network...do i have to pay

200 dollars at month for a sim???? or things will change?

"experience" for justification... there must be shared "Value"

allow others some controls?

  • [9:17] Samuel Linden: Emanuele, I am not sure what you are asking
  • [9:17] Cel Edman: Well I noticed html-prim is really like cpu-intensive at the

moment?

  • [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: flash is an application development tool, not a primitive toy
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: some access list
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: which is controllable via LSL
  • [9:17] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: swf has no working open-source plugin for recent

versions of flash.

  • [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: check out flex morgaine
  • [9:18] Arifi Saeed: Emanuele, the server resource requirments to run a sim are

considerably greater than those required to run a web site.

  • [9:18] Samuel Linden: Tao, with the document sharing approach individuals would

have to authenticate with the object to see the media

  • [9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: QT won't support it. LInux won't support it
  • [9:18] Mircea Lobo: swf files can just worl like putting a wuicktime stream on a

texture does, or a .html like it works now more recently

good shared writeboard, comfortable and not laggy

  • [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: has been for years
  • [9:18] Rex Cronon: and javacan be quite powerfull, fast, and lightwight too:)
  • [9:18] Samuel Linden: JeanPierre, we see that as a very high value use case
  • [9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: SWF is not open source. It's a published

specification, which is very different.

  • [9:19] Tao Takashi: Samuel: ok but what about who is allowed to click links?
  • [9:19] Samuel Linden: and some shared whiteboards already work
  • [9:19] Tao Takashi: I already think about this with media players. you might want

people to change a video but maybe not everybody every 10 seconds

owner

  • [9:19] Callum Linden: /JeanPierre - that will come with Flash - there are quite a

few slick shared whiteboards using it

  • [9:19] Tao Takashi: Samuel: so basically how media is controlled today?
  • [9:20] Samuel Linden: well when it is liberated from the Parcel it would be up to

the object permissions

  • [9:20] Zha Ewry: has yet to see an in world whietboard which was usable in any way

which I'd call accerptabel even to skilled SL users. Between lag and an interface which normally is hostile

to capturing mouse strokes? Its' pretty vile

  • [9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: remem bers the licensing agreement for the swf file format:

no product may compete with Macromedia's (adobe's)

are pointlessly splitting hairs in my opinion.

  • [9:20] Tao Takashi: Samuel: That would be good because deeded objects are annoying
-)
  • [9:20] Zero Linden: Callum - how will that work - each of us will ahve our own

browser state - and then you'll rely on a flash plug in that knows how to sync state with all viewers?

  • [9:21] Qie Niangao: Frankly, the added LSL functionality needed to make any of this

useful for anything will be more valuable than any of the media applications it enables.

relevant PRACTICALLY is whether FOSS people can run your beautiful Flash, not whether there is a published

spec.

  • [9:21] Tao Takashi: can't it be one browser on that shared experience server?
  • [9:21] Arifi Saeed: Samuel, is there (or will there be) a writeup of this available

- of the architectural approaches your are describing here - not only of this jumbled conversation?

  • [9:21] Samuel Linden: Zero, I believe flash whiteboards mostly synch events to a

remote process which spams them back out to all connected clients

  • [9:21] Tao Takashi: like project wonderland basically?
  • [9:21] Callum Linden: zero: yes, exactly - the ones i'm thinking off appear to

support shared interaction now in your browser - it will behave the same in SL

  • [9:21] Samuel Linden: Arifi, we will post the design to the public wiki in the

next month

  • [9:22] Cel Edman: So currently its only to make like scripted dynamic animation with

svg?

of Flash

  • [9:23] Callum Linden: how about web based applications using javascript, xul and

that sort of thing - i've always thought that would be useful for adding interactivity to items in SL -

stores or vending machines for example - but i might be way off base

developers will need to do the sync'ing in Flash and their own servers, not rely on the Media sub-system to

provide a shared flash instance ---

Samuel, Zero, Kelly, and all for making this happen

  • [9:23] Zero Linden: as it would be very difficult / expensive to do a shared

instance

the surface has a flash engine running the base flash file separaterly

getting to see the image it is rendering

  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: With no shared experience, other than starting from semi-similar

states

  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: vs. a single render instance
  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: shared out to the group of users
  • [9:25] Zero Linden: Therefore, if the flash is not written to be "shared" or

"sync'd" somehow, each of us will see a different state

what we promise to support in terms of a shared experience, however applications such as Flash enable

sharing in ways that don't require our support

aspects of "the Flash experience" too, and aht problems it might introduce, not just think about the eye

candy and the benefits. If you're going to use the Adobe plugin, then you're making FOSS client people 2nd

class citizens again.

  • [9:26] Zero Linden: well . as do AJAX techniques with web browsers
  • [9:26] Emanuele Hax: can we have 2d/3d Secondlife in the same software?
  • [9:26] Cane Janick: so both will be available
  • [9:26] Cane Janick:  ?
  • [9:26] Bowiena Daviau: oho I see all colored ropes near the ava`s
  • [9:26] Zero Linden: well - so far, everything I said about flash is true about

every other media type so far: QT and Web

  • [9:26] Cel Edman: it sounds like mm strange, but like if html on a prim is supported

> why not like I have a (dynamic) html-page on my server, that generates the content of my sim.

  • [9:26] Tree Kyomoon: again morgaine, you are splitting hairs. You could not come

up with a single instance where something someone in the FOSS community wanted to do would be impossible

under Adobe's current open screen project.

  • [9:26] Zero Linden: it is just that for QT
  • [9:26] Zero Linden: it is possible to sync up all the viewers from the sim
  • [9:27] Zero Linden: and with URL sharing, that is one form of sync up for HTML
  • [9:27] Zero Linden: these forms of syncing provide a shared experience with little

or no development

  • [9:27] Zero Linden: in the media being shared it self
  • [9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: here's a fact for you: there is no Adobe flash

plugin for 64-bit. So, it's OK to make a part of the world invisible to a segment of the SL population, is

it?

  • [9:27] Zero Linden: the sharing/syncing is a function or option of the virtual

world

  • [9:27] Tao Takashi: I am ok with people running their own instances as long as you

can somehow do communications another way

  • [9:27] Samuel Linden: and to Zero's point they are wheels that have already been

invented

  • [9:27] Bowiena Daviau: lindesn`s thnks for sl
  • [9:28] Zero Linden: in the case of more significant web applications, or something

like flash (or even squeak :-O )

  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: Morgaine: IMHO better then for everybody
  • [9:28] Zero Linden: it would require development in the media itself to make a

sync'd or shared expereince

  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: Zero: That's ok though I think
  • [9:28] Arifi Saeed: What about Microsoft Silverlight - how might that fit in here?
  • [9:29] Tao Takashi: you might even want to do this because then you can serve

different versions out and personalize them

  • [9:29] Callum Linden: if microsoft want to make an LLMedia 'plugin' for

silverlight, i think it'd be great :)

  • [9:29] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: if it's official Linden policy to leave 64-bit and

FOSS c lients behind, fine. But if it's not official policy, and just happens because designers can't look

ahead and forsee problems, then things are not well.

  • [9:29] Samuel Linden: Arifi, there is some interest from a 3rd party on

developing support for silverlight

Silverlight then.

cohesion. One part decides to open-source the client and 64-bit, and another part decides to use the

closed, 32-bit only Flash plugin. Jeez.

script in the prim with https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server . See everyone later. :)

analysis of the consequences.

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