Open Source Meeting/2010-03-25

Agenda Thursday, 25 March 2010

1. Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
2. Snowglobe 1.4
3. Snowglobe 2.0: Things that happened this week and plan for next:
   • Worked on the script and did an auto commit yesterday on the vendor branch. Bugs in the asset_urls.txt production though. Working on a fix.
   • Thread from Q on branching strategy
   • Next steps:
     • fix the vendor branch update
     • merge to Snowglobe2 trunk
     • start seriously on merging back all Snowglobe1.x patches not there already
   • Communication:
     • One extra weekly hour like that one?
     • SL Forums to expand on some threads? (instead of cramming the mailing list)
   • SNOW 2.0 Source Code issues on pJIRA
4. SNOW-495: create a BINDIST CMake variable for producing (hopefully) legally distributable binaries
   • Pending update from Legal, through Merov

Transcript

[14:05]	Merov Linden:	anyhow, let's start
[14:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	Yes, I enjoy the new weather over the hills
[14:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not much in Canada, where cold weather will strike in a few hours...
[14:05]	Merov Linden:	Snowglobe 1.4: I haven't seen notable commits this weel
[14:05]	Zak Renfew:	LL sticking to that timezone instead of using GMT is creating trouble every couple of month.
[14:05]	Merov Linden:	haven't made any myself for sure
[14:06]	Robin Cornelius:	i've been under piles of other problems this week
[14:06]	Merov Linden:	I triaged a couple of things though this morning that could be applied to 1.4 trunk
[14:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	While the rest of the world figure out time can't be change, they are still getting used to the fact the USA is still in the dark ages and chang there clock due to many myths.
[14:06]	Robin Cornelius:	i'm using the socks5 code in anger and getting angry at the same time so there may be some new comits there
[14:06]	Dzonatas Sol:	Snowglobe 1.4 32 bit work out of the box with a few extras libs added
[14:06]	Dzonatas Sol:	works*
[14:07]	Merov Linden:	I saw Thickbrick's patch on planar texture alignment this morning
[14:07]	Merov Linden:	really nice!
[14:07]	Techwolf Lupindo	checks on the freetype bug on jira...
[14:07]	Thickbrick Sleaford	smiles
[14:08]	Robin Cornelius:	i've also been pretty much out of action the last week with a double PC fail and the flu
[14:08]	Merov Linden:	SNOW-586
[14:08]	JIRA helper:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-586 [#SNOW-586] Add option to align textures across (planar-mapped, co-planar) faces
[14:08]	Merov Linden:	that's Thikbrick's patch ^^^
[14:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	and jira is not responding to me....
[14:08]	Merov Linden:	there are other patches that I haven't had time to review yet
[14:09]	Merov Linden:	but, reminder, if you are a committer, you *can* review patches
[14:09]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	that patch above comes with a video illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMyvGrOsYM4
[14:09]	Merov Linden:	I shouldn't be the bottle neck here, I won't scale (I'm actually trying to loose weight..)
[14:10]	Merov Linden:	the video makes the feature really compelling
[14:10]	RedMokum Bravin:	It looks awesome.
[14:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I'm finishing reviewing Aleric's patch for VWR-12984 (BIG patch...)
[14:10]	JIRA helper:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12984 [#VWR-12984] 1.23: Water flickers and disappears in patches
[14:10]	Merov Linden:	so, yeah, I know we'll have to port to 2.0 and there are some UI tweaks to do but that's such a sweet addition
[14:11]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	porting to c++ part to 2.0 is quick - just some style changes. The XUI part I haven't looked at.
[14:12]	Merov Linden:	that 12984 is big indeed
[14:13]	Dzonatas Sol:	Hopefully the old UI stays awhile in Snowglobe until this issue is resolved: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17324
[14:13]	JIRA helper:	[#VWR-17324] Processor Usage Through the Roof on 2.0 Beta
[14:13]	Merov Linden	checks that one
[14:14]	Dzonatas Sol:	Note my comment: When I run 32 bit Viewer V2.0 on my machine it has about 75% utilization. When I run 32 bit Snowglobe 1.4 on my machine it has about 25% utilization.
[14:14]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Dzonatas: that CPU time is in the main process, or the SLPlugin processes?
[14:15]	Dzonatas Sol:	That's like 2 CPUs pegs at 100%
[14:15]	Merov Linden:	hmm...
[14:15]	Dzonatas Sol:	pegged*... I haven't isolated the problem yet. I can only run it at low graphics
[14:15]	Techwolf Lupindo:	has SNOW-559 been triaged at all? That is someone only a Linden can fix.
[14:15]	JIRA helper:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-559 [#SNOW-559] !standalone build error due to missing libfreetype.so. libpangoft2-1.0.so: undefined reference to `FT_Realloc'
[14:16]	Merov Linden:	Tofu's comment on 17324 is making me worried
[14:17]	Merov Linden:	well, I know that Bao and others have been working on this
[14:17]	Merov Linden:	good that Tofu's has an eye on it too...
[14:17]	Merov Linden:	559: I need to work on that Techwolf
[14:18]	Mug of	Coffee : Hot strong coffee!!
[14:19]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I think there shouldn't be a difference in how much cpu time is spent in texture decoding between SG1.3 and SL2.0.
[14:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That bug can affect the LL bianary builds as they pick up the sytem freetype.so instead of the LL supplied one.
[14:19]	Ardy Lay:	Thanks Robin, now I need coffee too. :-0
[14:19]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	(modulo some bugs)
[14:19]	Merov Linden:	Techwolf: there has been lots of build issues moving to 2.0 and I'm slowly (sorry) moving through them
[14:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	/m enods
[14:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Just making sure its wansn't lost/ignored.
[14:20]	Merov Linden:	so, I don't have an answer right this minute but I've been through the *whole* export, build and package muddle so I think I can find my way out of almost anything now...
[14:21]	Merov Linden:	not that I always wanted that knowledge but... here it is...
[14:21]	Merov Linden:	I assigned the bug to me Techwolf so it doesn't fall through the cracks
[14:21]	Merov Linden:	thanks for bringing it up
[14:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Thank you.
[14:22]	Robin Cornelius:	ha found the bug in the socks code
[14:22]	Merov Linden:	OK, next of the agenda: 2.0 and branch strategy
[14:22]	Merov Linden:	so, on 2.0 you may have seens a big commit yesterday on the vendor branch
[14:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That bug not only affect builders, but could also affect LL suppied binary if the sytem freetype on the LL build system is different from the LL supplied one. Next topic. :-)
[14:23]	Merov Linden:	it's an auto update containing the whole beta4
[14:23]	Merov Linden:	the problem is that the asset_urls.txt is all wrong :(
[14:24]	Merov Linden:	I need to get the upload to S3 fixed but that requires a fix on the *live* buildscript repo internally, which is the "master" repo for the whole building machinery
[14:24]	Merov Linden:	it's fragile and a bug in there can break the production of 2.0 so, extra extra caution when changing that
[14:25]	Merov Linden:	actually, I did a change this week which was suspected as a culprit in a breakage in the 2.0 build (it was not eventually) and I really felt the heat
[14:25]	Merov Linden:	anyway, I'm extra prudent but I have a fix and did some succesful tests already
[14:26]	Merov Linden:	I just need to get the seal of approval from everyone before pushing that change
[14:26]	Merov Linden:	once done, the auto export should work
[14:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	;-)
[14:27]	Merov Linden:	that's hinges nicely with Q's branch strategy email
[14:27]	Dzonatas Sol:	Do you need to to try a new 32 bit compile and recheck utilization on beta4?
[14:27]	Merov Linden:	it got some interesting feedback and questions on the list
[14:27]	Dzonatas Sol:	need me*
[14:27]	Latif Khalifa:	i think it's got some limitations that strategy
[14:28]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	it looks like the bottleneck with that strategy will be svn
[14:28]	Latif Khalifa:	i think Nyx's plan to develop the new clothing features on a branch that will be auto merged to snowglobe might cause some issues
[14:28]	Merov Linden:	Dzonatas: I'll be happy to have you make such test once we get a clean vendor branch
[14:28]	Ardy Lay:	I guess develop.py doesn't like me, again.
[14:28]	Merov Linden:	note that now it's *not* clean (see above about the asset_urls)
[14:28]	Dzonatas Sol:	kk
[14:29]	Ardy Lay:	Cannot find a Visual Studio installation!
[14:29]	Merov Linden:	Latif: I need to talk to Nyx about it
[14:30]	Merov Linden:	The thing is that we want development made in the open, in Snowglobe as much as possible
[14:30]	Robin Cornelius:	Ardy i've been looking at some issues like that
[14:30]	Ardy Lay:	I can wait.
[14:30]	Merov Linden:	and I'm happy to see Nyx jumping right into the concept
[14:30]	Ardy Lay:	I beat on the XML files enough that V2's UI no longer makes me pass out.
[14:31]	Merov Linden:	so, let's see how we can make that work for all of us
[14:31]	Robin Cornelius:	the key word there is auto-merged, it just needs to be treated like it would inside LL, the merge needs to be hand applied to bring the branches back together
[14:31]	Eddi Decosta:	hi hi, sorry i just look the new beta 2.0 ㋡
[14:32]	Merov Linden:	I think you're right Robin
[14:32]	Merov Linden:	even for the vendor branch, we shouldn't have "auto" merge
[14:32]	Merov Linden:	but regular and frequent is something we should shoot for
[14:32]	XStreetSL Magic	Box : SL Exchange - Delivered item [NVE] Sculpted Sand Dune - Boxed (full perms).
[14:32]	Robin Cornelius:	the only automerging should be for read only branches
[14:33]	Merov Linden:	yeah: the vendor branch
[14:33]	Merov Linden:	we *could* create another "vendor + clothing" branch
[14:33]	Robin Cornelius	mubles something about git/hg and dVCS
[14:33]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	isn't the vendor branch (oss-viewer) read-only?
[14:33]	Merov Linden:	and merge that in Snowglobe 2.0 "manually"
[14:34]	Robin Cornelius:	Thickbrick, none of the svn is read only, but we have to pretend it is
[14:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That sound good. The svn repo does not have enoght brances now. ;-)
[14:34]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	yes
[14:34]	Merov Linden:	hg: well, that's a case of why I mentioned last week moving to hg without waiting for the internal code split to be completed
[14:34]	Merov Linden:	the merge in hg is so much better!
[14:35]	Robin Cornelius:	if we move early will we have a rebase problem when internal catches up? or will you be merging by patch?
[14:36]	Merov Linden:	I don't think I'll have a problem: it turns out that we will always need some "export" stage because of non GPL code intricated in our repo
[14:36]	Dzonatas Sol:	+1 move to hg if it help lessen your work merov =)
[14:36]	Merov Linden:	so, that means that we'll have an hg->hg export instead of hg->svn
[14:36]	Robin Cornelius:	so there will never be a common ansestor? the external hg will start from scratch and merge patch by patch
[14:37]	Merov Linden:	but it's not that different (now that I own that code, I can confidently say so)
[14:37]	Dzonatas Sol	likes version keys for foreign merges
[14:37]	Merov Linden:	We'll recreate the commit history, yes
[14:37]	Merov Linden:	we copy the commit comments over though so the history is not lost
[14:38]	Merov Linden:	and if we do that automatically (on each commit), then there's not much lost
[14:38]	Robin Cornelius:	ok, so you filter in post-commit hook grab the diff and throw it over the wall, then patch apply
[14:38]	Robin Cornelius:	makes sense
[14:39]	Merov Linden:	yeah, it should be workable
[14:39]	Merov Linden:	it's still possible to export any internal branch also, just one flag to switch on the BuildParams of any branch
[14:39]	Merov Linden:	so we have a lot of flexibility
[14:40]	Latif Khalifa:	nice to hear
[14:40]	Robin Cornelius:	so exactly how safe is that switch? ;-p
[14:40]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[14:40]	Merov Linden:	ideally though, I'll try to stay as close as possible to the canonic "Q strategy"
[14:41]	Merov Linden:	i.e. export the internal viewer branch on each commit, all LL know that things go exported publicly *by default*
[14:41]	Merov Linden:	that's the best though, of course, I'm a little worry about instabilities...
[14:42]	Merov Linden:	but it's better than the alternative (do everything behind closed door till it's QAed...)
[14:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	Seems like that strategy leans towards a tic-tock approah... between snowglobe and internal development... not sure how to define the tick or tock, yet the flow seems to sway like a pendulum
[14:42]	Latif Khalifa:	much better indeed
[14:43]	Merov Linden:	we'll see how this all play out in the coming weeks, I have a meeting set up with Q to discuss just that
[14:43]	Merov Linden:	but right now, he's whole team is working frantically to meet the official Viewer 2.0 dead line
[14:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I"ve also been re-doing most of my ebuilds on the gentoo overlay. Makes it easer for me to maintiane and will allower user/devolopers to emerge xxx-svn a lot more without breakage.
[14:43]	Merov Linden:	they are a *tad* busy...
[14:45]	Merov Linden:	OK, so, summary on 2.0: Merov has a bug on the uplaod to S3 of bundles, he has a fix, when tested, we'll turn the auto update on
[14:45]	Merov Linden	pffew...
[14:45]	Techwolf Lupindo	grins
[14:45]	Merov Linden:	next on the agenda: the communication issue
[14:45]	Merov Linden:	I sort of jumped on a thread to talk about this
[14:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	You humans tend to work and work and work...don't you ever take a break and romp though the woods? :-D
[14:46]	Merov Linden:	there were a lot of emails on that
[14:46]	Merov Linden:	I've the feeling there are a couple of things we could do better
[14:46]	Merov Linden:	so I proposed 2 things:
[14:46]	Merov Linden:	1. Have more meeting like that one IW
[14:47]	Merov Linden:	I personaly like those meetings as we have a set time to talk over stuff
[14:47]	Merov Linden:	and it would be nice to accomodate other people (like Aleric)
[14:47]	Merov Linden:	you don't have to come to both of course...
[14:48]	Merov Linden:	anyway, what do you think?
[14:48]	Robin Cornelius:	what sort of time do you propose? or not got that far yet?
[14:48]	Merov Linden:	I don
[14:48]	Merov Linden:	I don't have a proposed time yet
[14:48]	Merov Linden:	I personally can accomodate a wide range
[14:49]	Merov Linden:	for the day though, I'd prefer Tuesday as it'll alternate nicely with the current Thursday
[14:49]	Merov Linden:	so there's something to say every 2 days
[14:50]	Merov Linden:	how late is it in Europe right now? 10pm right?
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius:	might want some flexibility with time too, some times might only be 1/2 hour worth
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius:	9PM in UK
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius:	well comming up to 20
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius:	err 10
[14:50]	Merov Linden:	Aleric said "later" than 2pm which surprised me
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius:	usual hippo meeting when we all agree on summer time is 10PM GMT 11PM CET
[14:51]	Merov Linden:	fine with me but we might loose even more European folks
[14:51]	Robin Cornelius:	I think hes probably up to 3 in the morning coding or something ;-)
[14:51]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	how about a wiki vote on this. Write down a few proposed hours and let people add their name under the time they preffer?
[14:51]	Merov Linden:	k
[14:51]	Dzonatas Sol:	what day of week?
[14:51]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	taking opinions here of peopel who are n't here is hard
[14:52]	Merov Linden:	I need to send an email on this to the list then
[14:52]	Techwolf Lupindo:	And allow more then one name entry as some folks can handle jsut about any day/time whiel others can't
[14:52]	Robin Cornelius:	group notice to snowglobe with the question
[14:53]	Merov Linden:	good idea Robin
[14:53]	Merov Linden:	2. Forums: for long threads, would offset the list
[14:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Use the poll option in groups also.
[14:53]	Robin Cornelius:	does that even work?
[14:54]	Merov Linden:	that being said, not much people use the Open Source sub category in the ofrum right now
[14:54]	Merov Linden:	and the questions are not really Open Source...
[14:54]	Robin Cornelius:	ML and group should hit the vsat majority
[14:54]	Merov Linden:	Boroondas has been doing most of the answers to questions there
[14:54]	Robin Cornelius:	its a place i hardly get to
[14:54]	Merov Linden:	well, would you if it was managed better?
[14:55]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The blogified forums are not really usefull now. Catgatory like that group you metchine merov are hidden. I've never seen it. So now I have to go looking for it....
[14:55]	Merov Linden:	or is there an overarching reason?
[14:55]	Robin Cornelius:	i find ML's the most effective tool, every project i am involved with centers around the ML
[14:55]	Dzonatas Sol:	just subscribed to rss to get updates, otherwise the forums don't get checked often like mail-lists
[14:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	My main problem with the flog it is the format. Just hard to find stuff in it.
[14:56]	Merov Linden:	most projects do have a variety of mailing list: general, coding, testing, <specific area>
[14:56]	Latif Khalifa:	i personally find the blog software used by ll to be.... lacking
[14:56]	Robin Cornelius:	i have email sat open on one monitor all day, droping mail into different boxes so i see incoming mail in minutes in most cases
[14:57]	Merov Linden:	we've only one and it's hard to sort through it
[14:58]	Merov Linden:	other FLOSS projects I've been involved with also used ML mostly but folks at LL reported great experience with Forums
[14:58]	Eddi Decosta:	well, sorry i need to go for now other meeting in beta grid, im back nect week, thanks ㋡
[14:58]	Dzonatas Sol:	IronPython mail-list is much busier than opensource-dev, so mail-lists works for codeplex people
[14:58]	Merov Linden:	anyway, there's no point push something if it won't be used
[14:59]	Robin Cornelius:	most of the debian lists are very high volume too
[14:59]	Robin Cornelius:	i think the forum has a place though
[14:59]	Merov Linden:	we should also use the Snowglobe group more as mentioned by Robin
[14:59]	Robin Cornelius:	i think many new users, or new to open source may go to the forum first
[14:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Could somebody who was here from the beginning please make a notecard for us who couldn't make it?
[15:00]	Merov Linden:	k, so, consensus seems to be: yes to new meeting IW, no (or no enthusiasm) for forum
[15:00]	Robin Cornelius:	Good point, is anyone doing transcrips these days?
[15:00]	Merov Linden	is not
[15:00]	Thickbrick Sleaford	is sometimes, and a few others do too
[15:00]	Robin Cornelius:	a bunch of coders and we can't automate that ;-)
[15:00]	Dzonatas Sol:	Forum is keepable... different audience.
[15:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Merov: you need an automated transcript system. There are legal issues becoming important here, and it's needed.
[15:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Geneko!
[15:01]	Robin Cornelius:	need a parser for the server chat logs
[15:01]	Dzonatas Sol:	Maybe we should post transcripts to the forum
[15:01]	Geneko Nemeth	thinks inventory giving needs more feedback.
[15:02]	Merov Linden:	we haven't discussed anything legal and I'll refrain discussing any personally as IANAL
[15:02]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Dzonatas: +1
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Why not on the Wiki?
[15:02]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	well, link to the wiki, not full transcript
[15:02]	Merov Linden:	I know that other OH have done so
[15:02]	Dzonatas Sol:	Wiki too. I just wonder if all forum users access the wiki.
[15:03]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	having it visible on the forum is a big plus
[15:03]	Merov Linden:	I find them impossible to parse though...
[15:03]	Merov Linden:	but that's just me...
[15:03]	Mm Alder:	Why would you want to archive something to a forum?
[15:03]	Mm Alder:	That's what wikis are good for?
[15:04]	Merov Linden:	Having them attached to the wiki where we keep the agenda seems the good place to me
[15:04]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Mm: not post transcript to the forum, but a link to the wiki each week will let people know what things are happening, and hopefully enourage participation.
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Merov: It was very simple before, when all we had was the GPL. Now that you are overriding the GPL for developers who develop for SL, every word you say is a legal statement concerning developers. (Unfortunately)
[15:04]	Aimee Linden	wonders if we need a forki or a wikum
[15:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	we already have an unholy merge of blog and forum
[15:05]	Robin Cornelius:	the bloghorum
[15:05]	Merov Linden:	if anything, we may have too many comm channel, not too little...
[15:06]	Merov Linden:	hard to keep all of it flowing in sync (impossible really...)
[15:06]	Mm Alder:	If that's the case Merov, we're not using them very well. :-)
[15:06]	Merov Linden:	we are not, indeed
[15:07]	Merov Linden:	anyway, it's 3pm and I need to wrap up some things before the end of the day
[15:07]	Dzonatas Sol:	UXIG here, yes?: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/53/103/27
[15:07]	Merov Linden:	thanks for coming, I'll shoot an email to the list about the new meeting time
[15:07]	Dzonatas Sol:	Thanks for the meet-up!! =)
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Southwest corner I think, Dzon
[15:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	fat nekkid Ruth
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Merov
[15:08]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Robin, can you add a note about "weekly meeting in Hippotropolis, see wiki for details" to the Snowglobe group description?
[15:08]	Merov Linden:	see you next week (or earlier :) )

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