User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Feb 28

[8:35] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[8:36] Zha Ewry: hands Zero another two by foor to hold up the IM system
[8:36] Wyn Galbraith: Ruth'd Tree!
[8:36] Wyn Galbraith: Darn cleared up too fast.
[8:36] Zero Linden: As always - Tree is busy recording the session for future history of science majors
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: three crashes in a row
[8:36] JayR Cela: Zero how is ther progress with havok 4 & Mono going ?
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: nasty ones
[8:36] Neas Bade: or anthropology majors :)
[8:37] Zero Linden: I spent some time yesterday debugging the IM problems with Which yesterday
[8:37] Rex Cronon: last time i logged out was from SWT(sandbox weapons testing) and because the scripts and physics were off i didn't even realize that i still had my gun attached
[8:37] Alyssya Vella: the ones that had me talking in IM with one person and a completely random person seeing and replying in the box also?? lol
[8:38] Zero Linden: There are just some astoundingly wild things one can do with a dynamic language runtime like Python
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: My chat bot ONLY works when that happens...
[8:38] Alyssya Vella: had to remind herself to do ALL business in voice ;-)
[8:38] Zero Linden: Alyssya - we're mostly looking at the one where all of a sudden a group chat process starts using up memory without bound
[8:39] Zero Linden: which causes the machine it is on to swap, which then causes everything else on the machine to stop running
[8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, remind which he has my chat bot code, which gives a 1200% repro of the group =? conference chat thing (if/when it works at all)
[8:39] Zha Ewry: FOr like, days?
[8:39] Rex Cronon: btw, what is the maximum number of users that a group chat can have?
[8:39] Alyssya Vella: ah alright.. well that is an issue also.. although people you dont know suddenly appearing in private IM boxes with one individual completely unrelated is quite worrying also.. but one step at a time i guess ;-)
[8:41] Zero Linden: Zha - oh no, once the machine goes into swap, we have to kill it and restart the group IM system
[8:41] Zha Ewry: wonders, just how hard it would be to fully reset that utility cluster
[8:41] Zha Ewry: We've seen some giroups wedged for days
[8:41] Zero Linden: so it doesn't last for more than a few minutes
[8:42] Zero Linden: when the machine goes into heavy swap, pagers go off
[8:42] Zero Linden: cell phones ring
[8:42] Zha Ewry: AWGroupies, has been hard wedged, Since monday
[8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: which means AW Groupies IM is yet ANOTHER issue...
[8:42] Zero Linden: klaxons in the monkey house
[8:42] Zha Ewry: Nervous looking grid monkeys?
[8:42] Rex Cronon: that is quite interesting alyssya. never happened to me, but i have heard about it. imafine is one person say to another person "lets ger married" and a different person gets the IM:)
[8:42] Zero Linden: Zha - really? that's odd....
[8:42] Zero Linden: Rex - there is no limit
[8:42] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I've been on with conciregre pretty much every AM
[8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: 3 days now, no Groupies IM, zero
[8:42] Zero Linden: there are groups with 1,000s of members
[8:43] Zero Linden: really.... okay....
[8:43] Alyssya Vella: lol yes Rex.. happened to me the first time yesterday.. mid private business discussions.. wasnt pleasant.. but yes i agree the group issue is a mojoy one and good to hear you are working on it
[8:43] Alyssya Vella: *major
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: moyoy stounds good too
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: mojoy sounds good
[8:44] Alyssya Vella: LOL
[8:44] Zero Linden: I'm asking around internally
[8:46] Zero Linden: well, while that is percolating....
[8:46] Zero Linden: So, we've been digging around the live messaging server (!)
[8:46] Dark Chocolate: Zha Ewry unwraps a bar of Kintyre chocolate... slowly....
[8:46] Zero Linden: and doing things like finding and exploring the stack frames of live chat sessions
[8:47] Zha Ewry: Singular?
[8:47] Zero Linden: on the once hand, a little scary
[8:47] Zero Linden: on the other, there is nothing like it if we had written this in C++
[8:48] Day Oh: Whaddya mean
[8:50] Rex Cronon: so silent in here
[8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero crash?
[8:51] Zero Linden: well - you can't just do things like all_agent_dicts = [ x for x in gc.getinstances(dict) if x.has('agentid") ]
[8:51] Alyssya Vella: listens for monkeys klaxon ing
[8:51] Wyn Galbraith: I was just wondering if I crashed.
[8:52] Zero Linden: and then see what the state of all the agentid data structures are
[8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: in C++ you mena...
[8:52] Zero Linden: where as I can do that on a live running python process handling multi-agent chat
[8:53] Tedd Maa: the wonders of GC
[8:53] Tedd Maa: at the cost of a few cycles
[8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: GC?
[8:53] Zero Linden: even better is that you can ask questions like - what object is holding on to this giant list of agents?
[8:54] Tedd Maa: GC = Garbage Collection, new languages like .Net and Java has it - maintains memory basically
[8:54] Zero Linden: "new"?
[8:54] Tedd Maa: costs a bit more in terms of CPU, but you save so much time debugging that you can put the money back into better hardware ;)
[8:54] Anders Falworth: heh
[8:54] Zero Linden: old langauges too: Like Lisp & Smalltalk
[8:54] Rex Cronon: java, new?
[8:54] Anders Falworth: the old new hotness
[8:54] Neas Bade: heh, Java is old man's language now :)
[8:55] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK. the gc.get instances reference confused me
[8:55] Tedd Maa: yeah, old languages too - a misstatement :)
[8:55] Zero Linden: basically, because the language runtime manages all memory, it knows how to find all objects of a given type
[8:56] Tao Takashi: Hi
[8:56] Rex Cronon: hi tao
[8:56] Zero Linden: in C or C++, since the application manages it's own memory, all the run time can do is find all the allocated blocks of bytes, but it has no idea what they are
[8:56] Day Oh: Welcome Tao
[8:56] Tao Takashi: thanks :)
[8:56] Tedd Maa: and yes, Java is new to some of us "veterans"
[8:57] Zha Ewry: recalls distant memories of generational scavanging in the early 80s
[8:57] Zero Linden: well, the multi-agent monkeys see to be sleeping.... so I'll take up the AWG groupies IM with them later
[8:57] Squirrel Wood: Phil.. mike
[8:57] Zero Linden: I want him to share the joke with us
[8:58] Wyn Galbraith: It's Phil Ambassador
[8:58] Wyn Galbraith: We hear you secrets.
[8:59] Wyn Galbraith: Yep
[8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: people that leave microphones on should have their speakers on too
[8:59] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[8:59] RobertC Schridde: lol
[8:59] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks. Can hear interesting things that way.
[8:59] Zero Linden: well
[8:59] Zero Linden: I'm busy writing documents
[8:59] Zha Ewry: looks thoughtful
[9:00] Zero Linden: should be in your hands by early next week
[9:00] Zha Ewry: Zero.. do we have *any* use cases for cross domain debugging?
[9:00] Neas Bade: sweet
[9:00] Rex Cronon: good, i have sound off. i thought u were talking about me:)
[9:00] Zero Linden: Zha - that sounds scary
[9:00] Zero Linden: though, to that end, Which and I were discussing ideas for standardized introspection
[9:00] Zha Ewry: grins "Yeah, us little blonde things get scary"
[9:00] RobertC Schridde: cant detach thingy ---AAHHH!!!!
[9:00] Zero Linden: so that you could poke at a capability yougot from another domain
[9:00] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:01] Zha Ewry: Yes, things like that and
[9:01] Zero Linden: and ask it: "What protocol do you provide?"
[9:01] Zha Ewry: "Please tell me what's up with this service I invoked"
[9:01] Tao Takashi: speaking of protocols, I am on a panel later where I have to talk about the impact of rules and protocols on behaviour ;-)
[9:01] Zha Ewry: Health, and maybe anomolous failred requests from me
[9:01] Zero Linden: We sort of agree that we should shy away from fully formed machine readable descriptions
[9:01] Zero Linden: as taht system is likely to be bigger than the protocol!
[9:02] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:02] Zero Linden: so, something lightweight
[9:02] Zero Linden: that a debugger of sorts would have a chance of displaying to a human
[9:02] Zha Ewry: You down't want a BPEl 2.1 workflow language descriptoin of the entire system in XML?
[9:02] Zero Linden: Well - ..... tempting.... but no.
[9:02] Zha Ewry: It should not be tempting Zero.
[9:03] Zha Ewry: goes short on her position on angle bracket futures
[9:03] Zero Linden: What I really don't want is to imply that systems should read a meta description before formatting a request
[9:03] Zha Ewry: Right
[9:03] Zha Ewry: That way lies madness
[9:03] Zero Linden: forgot to type his sarcasm quotes
[9:03] Tao Takashi: +1
[9:03] Zha Ewry: make sure you can tell what version of a protocol element you are working with
[9:04] Zero Linden: So - just to prepare you all -
[9:04] Zha Ewry: and assume that rhe programmer read the spec
[9:04] Zero Linden: I'm writing these docs as a spec writer -
[9:04] Zero Linden: this isn't the O'Reilly book "Second LIfe Open Grid Protocol Expalined"
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: snaps fingers. Goood title
[9:04] Zha Ewry: expects terse, and very careful use of must and may ;0-)
[9:04] Zero Linden: It is terse, and to the point with just a smidge of explication where we think it makes the formal description clear
[9:05] Rex Cronon: no "Sl Protocols for Dummies":)
[9:05] Zero Linden: Though, I fear for people saying. "... it's running SLOG-P ..."
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Bioinformatics for Dummies (real book--assumes PhD in related field)
[9:06] Zero Linden: If any of you aren't familiar with the stle
[9:07] Tao Takashi: But Second Life Open Grid is a good project name ;-)
[9:07] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:07] Zero Linden: I direct you at RFC 2616: [1]
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: "dummies" ... I think that word doesnt mean, what they think it means
[9:07] Zha Ewry: Will look very good on twitter
[9:07] Tao Takashi: but there's an open grid already so itmight be confusing
[9:08] Zero Linden: well - don't take the name as set in stone
[9:08] Zha Ewry: "SLOGing again today"
[9:08] Zero Linden: don't take anything as set in stone
[9:08] Zha Ewry: makes up jello in mass quantity for Zero to set things in
[9:08] Arawn Spitteler: Second Grid?
[9:09] Tao Takashi: I just wanted again to stress the fact that we need a name like that :)
[9:09] Zero Linden: Also, recognize that there is going to be a fair bit of foundational material
[9:09] Tao Takashi: but go on :)
[9:09] Zero Linden: LLSD, HTTP+REST usage, Resources, Capabilities
[9:10] Zero Linden: these things make up about 1/2 the text
[9:10] Zero Linden: at present
[9:10] Zero Linden: as they lay down the clear (I hope) foundation of how messages flow in this system
[9:10] Zero Linden: then, there is the three party construction (viewer-agent-region)
[9:11] Zero Linden: and the domain concepts
[9:11] Zero Linden: and finally
[9:11] Zero Linden: the particular resource classes: Login, Teleport, etc...
[9:11] Neas Bade: is looking very forward to this doc
[9:11] Zha Ewry: takes a deep breath.. "So.. what about the UDP ?"
[9:11] Zero Linden: And, oy vey, the Legacy connection stuff
[9:11] Zha Ewry: Ah
[9:11] Zha Ewry: Yes. That.
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: so I'm working on SLOG 0.8?
[9:11] Zero Linden: Where?!?!? UDP??!?! I don't see any UDP
[9:11] Zha Ewry: grins
[9:12] Tao Takashi: it's all ICMP
[9:12] Zha Ewry: Ignore the UDP behind the curtaion?
[9:12] Zero Linden: So far, the only UDP, and the old message system, will only be in the Legacy portions of the protocol
[9:12] Lillie Yifu: Open Meta-Grid... if nothing else for the acronym.
[9:12] Tao Takashi: heh :)
[9:12] Tao Takashi: maybe omg.com is still available?
[9:12] Zha Ewry: Open Meta Fantasic Grid
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: OMG-P
[9:12] Tao Takashi: ;-)
[9:12] JayR Cela: yeaaaaa on that note / UDP is offically moving into the history books where it belongs :_)))
[9:12] Zha Ewry: Did I type that out loud?
[9:13] Zero Linden: let's not have a frenzy of domain name registrations, eh?
[9:13] Tao Takashi: let's call it Project Future
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: for the low low price of $100,000 you can buy it from me, Zero
[9:13] Tao Takashi: so our goal is clear ;-)
[9:13] Zero Linden: sigh....
[9:13] Zha Ewry: Trans-meta-grid dominatoin, is the goal, right?
[9:14] RobertC Schridde: Blink...
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: trans metagrid domination? whoa nelly!
[9:14] Zero Linden: Now, just a question - does anyone have a technical standards template, schema and/or tool-chain they like?
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: TMGD
[9:14] Zero Linden: I've don't RFCs in text (ouch) and XML (vaguely okay)
[9:15] Tao Takashi: I never wrote a standard so no
[9:15] Lillie Yifu: question zero.... what is the next step after this document.. and what should the rest of us be dong to help get this document produced... what do you need from us?
[9:15] Tree Kyomoon: WSDL?
[9:15] Zero Linden: I'm considering DocBook
[9:15] Zha Ewry: Any tool, where we can do commnts and such without beakinng the mainline
[9:15] Zero Linden: Well - the clearest thing that this document is going to do is
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as it is cheap and cross-platform
[9:15] Zero Linden: set the structure for how the rest of it needs to be written
[9:15] Zha Ewry: and keep a decent lcoked down version of the 'This is the trunk of the spec"
[9:15] Zero Linden: the form of who we document the resource classes, ect.
[9:15] Zha Ewry: is key
[9:16] Zha Ewry: As in
[9:16] Zha Ewry: NO wiki for a formal document
[9:16] Zha Ewry: because.. it's too bloody painful to keep track of what the consensus is vs. what got edited
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I'm rewriting the current login spec for Rob. SHould I try to use your new format?
[9:16] Zero Linden: well - for first round I'm considering useing this tool for public comments:
[9:16] Tao Takashi: Microformats is all on a wiki ;-)
[9:16] Zero Linden: [2]
[9:16] Zha Ewry: smiles
[9:17] Tao Takashi: In Zope back then we had a nice Book object which enabled people to add comments to certain chapters
[9:17] Zha Ewry: Yeah, that one. (which zero showed me last week) looks really appropriate
[9:17] Tao Takashi: and paragraphs
[9:17] Zero Linden: Here is what I think will happen....
[9:17] Zero Linden: This doc shuld be enough for the very first interoperabilty work to start
[9:17] Tao Takashi: that looks quite nice
[9:17] Zero Linden: But it will document only a hand ful of the 400~500 resource classes (new spiffy name for messages)
[9:18] Zero Linden: that exsit
[9:18] Zero Linden: different parts of the community, I expect, will:
[9:18] Zero Linden: * language lawyer the text
[9:18] Zero Linden: * start coding
[9:19] Zero Linden: * propose extensions to what is there
[9:19] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if Messages wouldn't be Objects of class Message, wanting to distinguish objects of Class Class.
[9:19] Zero Linden: * start looking at and organzing some of those 400~500 systems into rough doucmented resource classes
[9:19] Tao Takashi: Zero should come to EuroPython and then we should make a sprint on that stuff :)
[9:19] Zha Ewry: Coding test harneses
[9:20] Zero Linden: Arwan - ask me to walk you through the amazing hall of mirrors that is MetaClass class sometime...
[9:20] Rex Cronon: so, this "document" that you are writtening describes the existing protocols?
[9:20] Zha Ewry: Which we talked about at AWgroupies on Tuesday
[9:20] Zero Linden: Unless you've already been thorugh that funhouse
[9:20] Zha Ewry: In which everything is oddly distorted, and part of everything else, Zero?
[9:21] Arawn Spitteler: has only been through the fun house, of the set of all sets that haven't themselves as members.
[9:21] Zero Linden: Well, as a teaser: MetaClass is an instance of MetaClass class.... and MetaClass class is an instance of MetaClass!
[9:21] Zero Linden: No Rex, this document set docuemtns the shiny new world
[9:21] Zero Linden: and very little of it, actually
[9:21] Lillie Yifu: Is there some way to interface this with jira, so that curent problems and requests can be cited as part of the discussion
[9:22] Zero Linden: just enough to log into that shiny new world and then get a capability that in turn gives you the current message system
[9:22] Rex Cronon: so, if represents the things to come, u can't actually test it against the existing servers
[9:22] Zero Linden: so you use the new stuff, and for all functions not yet moved to new and shiny, you use the old ... whcih is admitidly not well docuemnts...
[9:22] Zero Linden: well, not documented at all!
[9:23] Zero Linden: Studio Icehouse will be implementing the new parts for deployment on the main grid (agni)
[9:23] Neas Bade: we should definitely make it the burden on anyone asking specific questions of messages, that when they get an answer they need to write it into the doc
[9:23] Zero Linden: so, once deployed, you'll be able to test this stuff live
[9:24] Tao Takashi: but I guess agent domains will have some limitations at first
[9:24] Zero Linden: Now, most of the 400~500 messages will probably just trnaslate into the new forrmat with little work
[9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: except, eventually, ImprovedInstantMessage? (/me prays)
[9:24] Zero Linden: SO - in a sense, that new format for them will in essence document the existing protocol for that period of time when it is still active
[9:25] Zero Linden: Right Sai - that will be replaced with AllNewAndShinyInstantMessage :-)
[9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: with 300 functions?
[9:25] Zha Ewry: Ahm
[9:25] Zero Linden: Exactly!
[9:25] Tao Takashi: or with ChooseYourInstantMessagingBackendDude ;-)
[9:26] Zero Linden: Actually, as much as we like to kick IIM
[9:26] Zha Ewry: How about a nice, well structured set of semantically decoupled messaes
[9:26] Tao Takashi: just use IRC ;-)
[9:26] Zero Linden: there is some logic there: All those messages are things that are sent to an Agent that
[9:26] Zero Linden: 1) You want delivered to the Agent's viewer no matter where they are logged in
[9:26] Zero Linden: 2) You want queued up
[9:27] Zero Linden: 3) You want saved and dlivered later if they are off line (most of them)
[9:27] RobertC Schridde: Okay, that does it. Screw you guys, I'm going home!
[9:27] Zero Linden: 4) If they are off line and they want, you want to send an e-mail (most of them)
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: more hotpockets!
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I can understand that concept. However, the use of "Dialog" as the index to the message type inplies a certain tye-in to the interface that makes it harder to change the interface
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: (GUI)
[9:28] Zero Linden: Oh - I'm not makeing excuses for the current actual incarnation of IIM!
[9:28] Zero Linden: But, as you might imagine, it was originally keyed off to the different kinds of dialog boxes we showed
[9:28] Zero Linden: in the viewer
[9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: right, which is a legacy that permates all aspects of the viewer (like invetnory)
[9:29] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:29] Zero Linden: But, I'm envisioning that in the new world, these resource classes will be all examples of a common resource class templates (metaclass?)
[9:29] Zha Ewry: Well, we'll mess it up in a new way, next time ;-)
[9:29] Zero Linden: By the way, "why 'resource class'?" you ask...
[9:29] Tao Takashi: should social networks act as agent domains in the future I could also imagine that it simply says "user not online" and does not send any message but instead asks the user to send a normal message like on FB
[9:30] Zero Linden: becuase as in HTTP, a resource is a particular end-point: Like the resource which is the ability to IM Zha, or the the reousrce which is the ability to IM Rex
[9:30] Zero Linden: these are different resoruces, but follow the same API
[9:31] Zero Linden: They fall into a common 'resource class'
[9:31] Zero Linden: I just didn't want to use API, which works for code, but not protocols
[9:31] Zero Linden: and I didn't want to use protocol, since the whole thing is the protocol, and that word is over used
[9:32] Zero Linden: so.... 'resource class'
[9:32] Zero Linden: anyhow
[9:32] Zero Linden: thanks for all coming
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: The object-naming trap. Spend 6 hours to name your objects to be used in 10 lines of code
[9:32] Zero Linden: it is 9:30 and I have to head to the Studio Director's meeting
[9:32] Zero Linden: thanks for coming
[9:32] Day Oh: <3
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks for hosting this and letting us know what is going on, Zero
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: Thanks zero!
[9:32] Zha Ewry: Good stuff, Zero
[9:32] Zero Linden: Except, in a spec, getting the right name is everything!
[9:32] JayR Cela: see yaa'll later
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: I will post this asap
[9:32] Lillie Yifu: Thank you Zero.
[9:32] Anders Falworth: later, Zero.
[9:32] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[9:32] Rex Cronon: bye jary
[9:33] Rex Cronon: jayr*
[9:33] Zha Ewry: Later Zero. Wonderful, as always
[9:33] Arawn Spitteler: Is there a URL for the Resource Class Funhouse?
[9:33] JayR Cela: bye Rex
[9:35] Rex Cronon: bye everybody

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Feb 28

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