AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01

Mojito Sorbet presented today. Slides are at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc75dtg5_6ffp3mhfs

[09:32]	Mojito Sorbet:	SHould I start now?
[09:33]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine Dinova goes for a coffee while the client listens
[09:33]	Zha Ewry:	I tend to give people about 5 minutes grace
[09:33]	Zha Ewry:	and let the Saijanai bot post spams
[09:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	hehe
[09:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Everyone still hung over from the weekend?
[09:33]	Mojito Sorbet:	Tha isn't spam. Those are useful announcments of coming events. Unless he mentions Squeek.
[09:34]	Zha EwryZha Ewry snorts
[09:34]	Imaze Rhiano:	I did have weekend with my cousins... lot's of drinking, swiming, swimming naked, swimming clothes on... and then some more drinking...
[09:35]	Imaze Rhiano:	and of course I did have hung over - beer just doesn't like from me :(
[09:37]	Mojito Sorbet:	This is my presentation on a framework for talking about VW protocols
[09:37]	Mojito Sorbet:	I did make some assumptions going in
[09:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	And that is that a desirable goal is supporting multiple independent Asset Stores
[09:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	In this diagram here,
[09:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	The roundish elements represent services
[09:39]	Mojito Sorbet:	I am illustrating just how object management works, to keep it simple
[09:39]	Mojito Sorbet:	But the similar concepts can be used when analyzing money flows, etc
[09:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	Each part of the diagram uses a specific protocol to talk to the other ones
[09:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	And some pairs do not need to talk at all
[09:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	We cna use this diagram to talk about what each service actually needs to communicxatwe to the others
[09:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	And form that we cna move to the technical implementation of those protocols
[9:40]	Imaze Rhiano:	there is just one inventory?
[9:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	One Inventory per user account
[9:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	Assuming you want to keep all your stuff listed in one place
[9:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	I guess you could have more than one
[9:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	Oh I see - should have written the Inventory as a multi-circle
[9:41]	Imaze Rhiano:	:P
[9:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	Yes, there can be multiple Inv services
[9:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm...I can see inventory to assest sync issues problem if that is not addressed.
[9:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	Here is a brief description of what each service does
[9:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	Hmm. This is missing Inventoiry. I thought I put that in there
[9:43]	Imaze Rhiano:	humm... assets are handling access control too?
[9:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	I put Access COnytrol in the Asset Server because it is the only place that really knows what belong to who
[9:43]	Fleep Tuque:	yay
[9:43]	Fleep Tuque:	finally, relogging directly in worked.
[9:44]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks to all who sent TPs
[9:44]	Mojito Sorbet:	Take the degenerate case - no ownership at all - everything s a freebie
[9:44]	Ahuva Heliosense:	sorry all - my machine is flipping out. i need to reboot. :(
[9:44]	Mojito Sorbet:	In that case, the Invenotry is just a list of those things you use all the time
[9:44]	Mojito Sorbet:	So you are not confronted with a huge pile of things
[9:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	The Inventory holds URIs to Assets
[9:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	These URIs get passed around
[9:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	If you make inventory a singleton, it stores up a million problems for subsequent expansion. That single "root" of the tree always gets implemented specially and non-portably in practice, so best just avoid it at design time. No single inventory, but a forest of them.
[9:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	Each "serrvice" in my diagram is supposed to rbe actually multiple instances of that service, provided by different organizations
[9:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	You "subscribe" to the ones you want to use
[9:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	As a Creator, you can choose the Asset Service you trust, that provides the functions you need
[9:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	A simple cheap Asset Service might not provide detailed time control of when things cna be rezzed or for how long
[9:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	A fancy one can track every sale, on every grid, and not allow movement. Or blacklist some untrusted operators
[9:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	Let me show an example of this in use
[9:47]	Fleep Tuque:	So I may "subscribe" to a different Asset service provider than my Money serv ice provider?
[9:47]	Rex Cronon:	greetings
[9:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	sure
[9:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	You can subscribe to multiples of each if yo like
[9:47]	Fleep Tuque:	ahh ok
[9:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	Now, subscribeing to an asset service means yu can add things to it
[9:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	As a USER, you aytomatically use which ever asset services are needed, to fetch the viual representations for what the sim tells you is near
[9:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	So here is the seuqnce to rez somehting
[9:49]	Mojito Sorbet:	I operate my viewer and browse my inventory and pick something
[9:49]	Mojito Sorbet:	That gives me an Asset URI
[9:49]	Dahlia Trimble:	would another scenario allow a sim to give an access key and uri to a viewer for multiple requests?
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	I tell the SIM I am in, where I want to put this
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	Let me come back top that
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	The Sim needs to get the details from the Asset store
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	The Asset URI telss it who to ask
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	But the asset store needsa to know, on whose behalf this is being done
[9:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	So the viewer has to include a SIGNED version of this request
[9:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	So when the Sim passes the request to the asset store, Asset store knows who wants it
[9:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	Sim adds in its own signed ID as well
[9:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	Tyhen the Asset store knows WHO wants it, WHERE.
[9:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	And can apply whatever rules the creator has set
[9:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	The creator, or the owner?
[9:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	Then it will pass the info needed by the sim back over the SA protocol
[9:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, the Creator initially
[9:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	You know that checkbox, whwere you can control what subsequent owners cna do?
[9:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah cool, not the creator. The owner, since the owner controls the asset service that yields the Yes/No policy
[9:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, no
[9:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	The CREATOR sets all that up initially
[9:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	No dorgetting the MOD case, which creates a new copy
[9:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	If I make a thing, and put it in my asset store
[9:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	And sell 100 copies
[9:54]	Imaze Rhiano looks how Morgaine prepares her "information must be free attack" :P
[9:54]	Mojito Sorbet:	ALl I am doing is adding 100 User IDs to the access list
[9:54]	Latha Serevi:	Huh, very different handling for mod and no-mod?
[9:54]	Mojito Sorbet:	If I choose to make it a Freebie, then I tell the Asset Store to not bother checking
[9:54]	Mojito Sorbet:	In SL currently, MODding an object creates a new one
[9:55]	Fleep Tuque:	right
[9:55]	Latha Serevi:	My concern is, nobody letting me change the color of my doodad.
[9:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	But that is just to make certain chaching more efficient
[9:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Imaze: You're entirely wrong. I've never made any such suggestion, I simply promote openness. Blame someone else for that line
[9:55]	Rex Cronon:	each item in the asset store has an access list?
[9:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	If you change a texture setting on your copy, you ARE modyfying it.
[9:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	I am not intending here to address exactly how the Asset store represents things, or what all the attribtes are
[9:56]	Imaze Rhiano:	sorry Bloookitty
[9:56]	Mojito Sorbet:	Rex, yes, it CAN. It is not REQUIRED to
[9:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	The sim will tell all the viewers who are "present" wghat the URI of the object is, so they can render it
[9:57]	Imaze Rhiano:	well... it is one way to implement assets service
[9:57]	Dahlia Trimble:	perhaps Mojito's design will allow an openness scenario as well for creators/users who choose such
[9:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	The viewerrs then take that URI and request the visual info form the Asset store
[9:57]	Latha Serevi:	Regarding auth, I have in my head that signatures are too expensive to do for every interaction; am I out of date, or are we going to (in practice) have to provide a method that allows not signing every single packet?
[9:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	Dahlia - that is the goal
[9:58]	Mojito Sorbet:	How controlled you make asset control is enirely up to the Asset Service
[9:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mojito: can you clarify how the ownership gets transferred when items are sold, so that the original creator no longer has property for life and merely leases items>?
[9:58]	Mojito Sorbet:	And you can have different such services, or a single one with multiple subscrioption types, etc
[9:58]	Mojito Sorbet:	You mean for NoCopy items?
[9:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep
[9:59]	Mojito Sorbet:	In that case, the original Creator relinquishes his own Access Right to the object
[9:59]	Imaze Rhiano:	Morgaine - I think that it would be one possible to way implement assset service - when other would be "manufacturing" copies from objects
[9:59]	Mojito Sorbet:	Usually when you sell something in SL you sell a COPY
[9:59]	Mojito Sorbet:	That is done in my scheme by just adding another user tot eh ACL
[9:59]	Fleep Tuque:	That's not always the case
[10:00]	Fleep Tuque:	we have our builders sell us originals to transfer ownership of items already rezzed and in place
[10:00]	Mojito Sorbet:	Once they Modify it (the wasy SL works) a new copy is created in the Asset Store
[10:00]	Mojito Sorbet:	But I am not trying to design the ultimake VWRAP system here
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	back
[10:00]	Mojito Sorbet:	All I am intending is to present a framework where we can TALK about exactly these issues
[10:00]	Fleep Tuque:	nod
[10:00]	Mojito Sorbet:	And figure out how such decisions impact the protocol design
[10:01]	Dahlia Trimble:	Fleep, in that case, the object may only exist in the sim, not in the asset server (for the SL implementation)
[10:01]	Fleep Tuque:	ok int he case where it only exisgts in the sim but no one has taken copy to inventory?
[10:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	one interesting scenarion would be situtation where creator wants to upgrade her product with new version and provide new version for all her customers
[10:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	I prefer to think of Sims not having their own copies of the asset description
[10:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	Except as an intirim step in creation
[10:02]	Latha Serevi:	Mojito, I love that you're doing this, sorry you're getting zapped by the "third rail" of permissions right now. ;-)
[10:02]	Fleep Tuque:	Realisticaly tho lots of things ONLY exist rezzed
[10:02]	Fleep Tuque:	people forget to take copies into inventory all the time
[10:02]	Mojito Sorbet:	Also consider that we want a framekwork that is flexible to implement current SL beahvior while not restricting everybody else to that model
[10:03]	Rex Cronon:	if creator transfers ownership, he/she can no longer provide new version
[10:03]	Mojito Sorbet:	However, I might want to do just that, when I sell my business to you.
[10:03]	Mojito Sorbet:	I sell the entire bnusiness, including the control rights to the objects
[10:04]	Mojito Sorbet:	A key part of all this is that The Inventory plays NO role in controlling ownership
[10:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool!
[10:04]	Mojito Sorbet:	It is really just a convenience so you can keep track of your stuff
[10:04]	Mojito Sorbet:	The final arbiter of ownership is the Asset Store
[10:04]	Fleep Tuque:	interesting
[10:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	And works for interop
[10:05]	Mojito Sorbet:	The mechanism of selling something is not shown in my diagram
[10:05]	Mojito Sorbet:	That involes interworking of the Money service, Asset store, Inventories, and multiple Viewer instances
[10:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Are these slides availlable Mojito?
[10:05]	Mojito Sorbet:	That starts to get messy
[10:05]	Mojito Sorbet:	For this initial presnetation I wanted a simple problem to descrive
[10:06]	Mojito Sorbet:	hold on
[10:06]	Mojito Sorbet:	afk
[10:07]	Latha Serevi:	(any volunteer to IM me the chat prior to 9:39? Overslept. thx.)
[10:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hopefully Sai is recording. I missed the preamble too
[10:08]	Zha Ewry:	I have the whole chat
[10:08]	Fleep Tuque:	If there's room in the agenda, would like to talk about SLCC before we break fi that's ok
[10:09]	Latha Serevi:	(thanks Honour)
[10:10]	metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...
[10:10]	Imaze Rhiano:	oh ... honour was quick :)
[10:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	I think I am done for today
[10:11]	Latha Serevi:	Darn, maybe more another time?
[10:11]	Imaze Rhiano:	Thank you Mojito!
[10:11]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks Mojito, this was good :)
[10:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	I did put a version of this on Google Docs
[10:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mojito: that was great, thanks. Have you written it up anywhere?
[10:11]	Fleep Tuque:	Understandable even by my pea brain :)
[10:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	I need to update that with these latest slides
[10:12]	Honour McMillan:	Thank you Mojito!
[10:12]	Fleep Tuque APPLAUDS!!!
[10:12]	Mojito Sorbet:	I will need a copy of the transcript to put into the paper
[10:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Excellent! Where on Google Docs, Mojito?
[10:12]	RevMagdalen Kyrie applauds!
[10:12]	Dahlia Trimble:	ty Mojito :)
[10:12]	Zha Ewry:	Make sureSaij get the link
[10:12]	Mojito Sorbet:	Let me look it up
[10:12]	Morgaine Dinova cheers wildly
[10:12]	Mojito Sorbet:	http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc75dtg5_6ffp3mhfs
[10:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	That is a web page of the results
[10:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	I just threw that together
[10:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Mojito :-)
[10:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	So bookmark that. I will do a proper Doc later
[10:13]	Zha Ewry:	Awesome
[10:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	I have an SVG file of this diagram
[10:14]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	thank you mojito!
[10:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Coolness, the IA link got removed, I like that diagram now :-)
[10:14]	Mojito Sorbet:	You should be able to take a copy of thie single slide here, for reference
[10:14]	Fleep Tuque:	Is there something else on the agenda or can I jump in?
[10:14]	Zha Ewry:	Leap in fleep
[10:14]	Fleep Tuque:	K thanks
[10:15]	Fleep Tuque:	So many of you may know the Second Life Community Convention website went live with soft launch a few days ago
[10:15]	Fleep Tuque:	Already we've gotten suggestions to add a "Technical & OpenSource" track
[10:15]	Fleep Tuque:	which I think the rest of the board is on-board with so to speak
[10:15]	Mojito Sorbet:	Just try to avoid refighting VWRAP battles
[10:16]	Fleep Tuque:	In order for that to happen, though, we have to be able to provide content for that, and someone to lead the track
[10:16]	Fleep Tuque:	so I wanted to talk with you guys, see if you had ideas, if anyone is willing to lead a track, etc.
[10:16]	Fleep Tuque:	The convention is in Boston this year, August 13-15th
[10:16]	Fleep Tuque:	and for what it's worth the tickets are selling way way faster than we expected
[10:17]	Fleep Tuque:	less than 10 of the early bird discount ones left, inf act, after only 4 days.
[10:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mojito: Sadly, looks like the battles WILL need to be refought. A Linden told us recently that interop is no longer on the front burner at LL.
[10:17]	Fleep Tuque:	So, thoughts? Anyone intersted?
[10:17]	Mojito Sorbet:	Linden is seeing its business plans crumble, so I can see why they would do that
[10:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	This is really more about OpenSim and such independent worlds
[10:18]	Fleep Tuque:	We do have to sort of toe the line a bit with regards to OpenSim, since our license agreement with Linden Lab specifies that this is a Second Life convention, not general VWs or what have you.
[10:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	Without a shared Asset scheme, those small worlds will be pretty barren
[10:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	Fleep, with that restriction I suggest you not mention VWRAP at all.
[10:19]	Fleep Tuque:	Even though Linden Lab is participating in writing the protocol?
[10:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	If you want to grow to handle VWs in general, you will have to change the name of the conference
[10:19]	Fleep Tuque:	I don't want to get mired down in the politics, at the same time, the work you're doing is very very important and I think other SL peeps should and need to know about it
[10:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	ARE they participating in helping write it? I have npot seen them do that
[10:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Open worlds won't be barren for long. It's closed worlds that accrete items only slowly within their walls, while open ones have nothing to hold back sharing and growing a huge pyramid.
[10:20]	Mojito Sorbet:	An SL User's Conference is not the right forum
[10:20]	Mojito Sorbet:	An implementastion of the open scheme I describe here elimnihnates much of Linden's lock on the market
[10:20]	Fleep Tuque:	Beyond the VWRAP or OpenSim, is there interest in other technical presentations and/or opensource technology that you think would be appropriate at SLCC?
[10:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	An SL users forum is very much the right forum in which to discuss how those SL users can interoperate with others.
[10:21]	Imaze Rhiano:	how are SIMs controlling what assets are allowed to use in the sim?
[10:21]	Mojito Sorbet:	You mean today?
[10:21]	Fleep Tuque:	(And yes, I tend to agree with Morgaine, as the leading vw platform, the SL users conference is perhaps one of the best venues to discuss it, that's where the most dedicated people to the metaverse are.) ;)
[10:22]	Mojito Sorbet:	Today each sim instance (SL, or OpenSim) has its own asset DB
[10:22]	Mojito Sorbet:	So if I as a crator want my stuff (even freeies) available in 4 worlds, I have to log onto each world, upload my stuff, set up vendors, etc
[10:22]	Fleep Tuque:	er that was worded badly, some of the peopel most dedicated to seeing the metaverse happen are in fact in SL.
[10:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	Yes, but an SL User's Conference is not the place for that. You will get in trouble with LL
[10:23]	Imaze Rhiano:	in model that you presented - can they for example limit rezzing of clothes/objects to some sets of asset services?
[10:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	sure
[10:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, the complexity of the Access Control Lists has to be worked out
[10:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	Some creators may not trust some Asset Service providers
[10:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	If you make freebies, it does not matter of course
[10:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	But if you try to keep tight control, you probably do not want external copies outside the asset service you started with
[10:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	Those who want tight control will have to work the hgardest
[10:24]	Latha Serevi:	If you can get someone to do the track, I think it should cheerfully include interop stuff as long as it's relevant to SL's future. Even as far as "what's this Opensim" presentations.
[10:24]	Imaze Rhiano:	for example - SIM owner wants that there is no nudity/ sex in sim (BOOOOORING) and then limits allowed assets services to group of services that she knows that are not hosting such material
[10:25]	Dahlia Trimble:	OpenSim? what's that?
[10:25]	Rex Cronon:	some asset service providers might not trust some creators:)
[10:25]	Fleep Tuque:	laugh
[10:25]	Mojito Sorbet:	It is not relevant to SL's fuiture unless Joshua and Zero say that it is
[10:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	The mandatory car analogy: It's like the Mercedes Benz users group wanting to discuss how to make their fuel inlet compatible with the gas pumps on public roads :-)
[10:25]	Fleep Tuque:	I think it can be done to satisfy the intent and the letter of the agreement and still provide constructive space to discuss how SL might interface with other worlds
[10:26]	Fleep Tuque:	The question, rather, is anyone willing to lead the track and/or provide content. :)
[10:26]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, you can try
[10:26]	Mojito Sorbet:	Not me
[10:26]	Fleep Tuque:	:)
[10:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mojito: this world doesn't belong to Joshua and Zero. It belongs to its residents, and LL are merely the world infrastructure provider.
[10:27]	Fleep Tuque:	OK, well, no one has to take a public position for the moment, but if you might be interested, please do let me know. I expect we will need to have track leaders in place within the next week or two to get moving.
[10:27]	Mojito Sorbet:	I do not think Linden Labs sees it that way
[10:27]	Fleep Tuque:	Thankfully the Second Life Community Convention is resident run.
[10:27]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	will the future be one where separate worlds interact? or will the worlds become basically like ISPs that sponsor your entry into a seamless network of sims?
[10:27]	Fleep Tuque:	I'm one of them, so. :)
[10:28]	Rex Cronon:	fleep. why don't u contact the emerald devlopers
[10:28]	Latha Serevi:	why, Rex?
[10:28]	Rex Cronon:	emerald is opens source
[10:28]	Rex Cronon:	open*
[10:29]	Mojito Sorbet:	When the core services like Assets, Money, IM, etc can be independent, the boundaries between worlds become quite fuzzy. This is goodness I think
[10:29]	Latha Serevi:	Yeah, but they're SL centric, a bit on the irresponsible side, and mostly hackers.
[10:29]	Fleep Tuque:	Anyone can submit a proposal of course, Emerald or anyone else
[10:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mojito: since LL has stated point-blank hundreds of time that everything users make belongs to the users, whether current management "sees it that way" or not is largely immaterial.
[10:29]	Fleep Tuque:	Hopefully the person(s) who step up to lead the track will be qualified to evaulate the proposals.
[10:29]	Rex Cronon:	how about other viewer creators. like latif, for example:)
[10:30]	Latha Serevi:	But, an Emerald topic is of course highly relevant. Just wouldn't expect to find a track leader there.
[10:30]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	just like I might get my browser from google, then use it to surf to any site, maybe I get my wallet and asset store and avatar from SL and then I surf to any sim, public or private, anywhere I have a link to
[10:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	Latif is in Denamrk. A little hard to travel to an RL conference.. :)
[10:30]	Rex Cronon:	unless u ask him u never know:)
[10:30]	Fleep Tuque:	Oh, which reminds me, should mention that track leaders receive complimentary registration of course. ;)
[10:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	Could have a big projection screen...
[10:31]	Mojito Sorbet:	But why Virtual World users need a RL conference in the first place befuddles me. :)
[10:31]	Fleep Tuque:	Because nothing replaces real hugs. :)
[10:31]	Fleep Tuque:	Not even that crazy hugging with straps gadget
[10:31]	Fleep Tuque:	laugh
[10:31]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	awww :-)
[10:31]	Fleep Tuque:	forgot what they called that prototype
[10:32]	Latha Serevi:	Does SLCC stream video out, for those of us who won't be heading to Boston?
[10:32]	Fleep Tuque:	Yes, that's the plan, to stream as much of the content as possible this year
[10:32]	Fleep Tuque:	which hopefully will be eaiser now that we're not tied to QT
[10:32]	Fleep Tuque:	course that means all those screaming about security of IP peeps will have to turn on shared media to see it. ;)
[10:33]	Latha Serevi:	Nah, theyu'll watch on the web and think that makes them safer.
[10:33]	Rex Cronon:	not really fleep. they can use their browsers:)
[10:33]	Fleep Tuque:	http://slconvention.org is the site, can submit a proposal or app to lead a track directly there.
[10:34]	Fleep Tuque:	though at the moment Technology & OpenSource is not an option since we're not sure yet if there's enough demand to justify it.
[10:34]	Fleep Tuque:	Which is sort of why I'm here! :)
[10:34]	Fleep Tuque:	(Or at least bringing it up)
[10:34]	Zha Ewry nods
[10:35]	Fleep Tuque:	I hope there is enough demand, I think it's important to broaden this conversation.
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	We should do a show of hands in group, or setup a surveymonkey or such to count noses
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	Its soemwhat chicken and egg, of course
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	if you have it listed, people will be more likely to say yes
[10:35]	Fleep Tuque:	Not in the "too many cooks" sense, but certainly int erms of a broader base of stakeholders means better use cases
[10:35]	Rex Cronon:	there is this site "freshmeat.net" that lists OS projects. it is possible that it also lists OS projects that have to do with sl
[10:35]	Fleep Tuque:	thanks Rex
[10:36]	Latha Serevi:	I'm guessing SLCC is all about in-world culture, and might not be fertile ground for this topic at all.
[10:36]	Mojito Sorbet:	That was my thought
[10:36]	Sheryl Mimulus:	sorry, I missed the presentation but I looked at the slides... shouldn't each sim have an "Inventory" of sorts?
[10:36]	Latha Serevi:	Despite your thoughtful outreach, Fleep... ;-)
[10:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	That "have to do with SL" is completely the wrong choice of words. SL is just one world, despite being the largest in the playing field.
[10:37]	Mojito Sorbet:	Sheryl, each sim needs to keep track of what is rezzed within it, but that is not a public interface
[10:37]	Fleep Tuque:	SLCC is somewhat about in world culture, but it's also a much broader conversation that you might thing
[10:37]	Fleep Tuque:	you're gathering a few hundred of the most engaged people, the conversation isn't all SL all the time, believe me.
[10:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sheryl: no, a sim has nothing to do with inventory, at most it's a proxy for passing asset references.
[10:37]	Rex Cronon:	well. i spoke too soon. very few OS projects on that site:(
[10:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	A sim keeps track of what is rezzed init, so it can restart after a crash.
[10:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	OS == Open Source, and virtually everything on Freshmeat is open source
[10:38]	Fleep Tuque:	And, if there isn't enough interest for a separate track, certainly individual presentations about these topics would be more than welcome.
[10:38]	Fleep Tuque:	So that's my pitch, I guess. :) I hope you'll consider it. :)
[10:38]	Latha Serevi:	Fleep, I think you're right to focus on finding a track leader. the right person could make something interesting happen, if they can be found (which may not happen)
[10:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	And a sim might keep a cache of the actual physical data it needs, just for performance
[10:39]	Sheryl Mimulus:	well, to me an inventory is a datastore of asset references... a sim also has a list of such asset references. the only difference is that sim asset references can belong to multiple owners
[10:39]	Mojito Sorbet:	Yes, that is correct
[10:39]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	Well I for one think this convention sounds awesome!
[10:39]	Mojito Sorbet:	And I am not saying you could not use some similar parts of the implemtnation
[10:39]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	besides it's an excuse to go to Boston, which is awesome itself!
[10:40]	Rex Cronon:	there is also a linden whose job description is to interface with the OS crowd, i think
[10:40]	Fleep Tuque:	Is Infinity gone?
[10:40]	Fleep Tuque:	I can't keep track these days
[10:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	yes
[10:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sheryl: having something in your inventory does not imply ownership in Mojito's scheme --- they're all just a bunch of references in inventory, no permission semantics. Usually the stuff in inventory will be yours, but if it's not then the access will simply fail when you try to use it.
[10:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's how an asset service can control rezzing in one place and not in another.
[10:42]	Imaze Rhiano:	How many here is actually using V2?
[10:42]	Fleep Tuque:	I have to take off, thanks for giving some time in the agenda, if anyone has follow up questions etc, feel free to ping me. :)
[10:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	The Asset Service can refuse to honor a request form a sim based on any condition its implementors desire to put in
[10:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	5
[10:42]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[10:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Fleep
[10:43]	Fleep Tuque:	See you guys later and thanks again for good presentation Mojito. :) wave!
[10:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	4 Emerald
[10:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	And I dunno what Rex has. 1.23.5 I think
[10:43]	Latha Serevi:	The two Lindens doing open source these days are Merov, the snowglobe maintainer who we all love, and the new one who's Director of Open Source Somethingorother, who was he again?
[10:43]	Dahlia Trimble:	bye Fleep :)
[10:43]	Imaze Rhiano:	I heard that Emerald's viewer identification is not accurate
[10:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	And Morgaine is running Imprudence
[10:44]	Rex Cronon:	i have the latest 1.23 viewer.
[10:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've not used V2 after the initial fortnight. The regressions will need to be removed (made optionsal) first for me to use it.
[10:44]	Rex Cronon:	i should have said the last of its kind, not latest:)
[10:44]	Dahlia Trimble:	I'm on Kirsten's right now
[10:44]	Imaze Rhiano:	Zha, Fleep, Sai, Dahlia and Rev are using V2 - according Emerald's viewer id
[10:44]	Mojito Sorbet:	Oho. Emerald misidentifies you as running Emerald
[10:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kirsten's was a good compromise on the UI
[10:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	I am using Emerald 1634. I have 2012 too
[10:45]	Fleep Tuque:	laugh wouldn't let me TP in won't let me TP out either
[10:45]	Fleep Tuque grumbles.
[10:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL Fleep
[10:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	I was having trouble with TP here earlier as well
[10:45]	Latha Serevi:	My Emerald doesn't think Rex is on Emerald.
[10:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	Also texture upload
[10:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mind boggles how SL can be so bugridden after almost a decade
[10:45]	Rex Cronon:	fleep finally got out:)
[10:46]	Latha Serevi:	But thinks Dahlia is on viewer 2.
[10:46]	Imaze Rhiano:	she did have 487 scripts....
[10:46]	Rex Cronon:	these seats must have glue or them:)
[10:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[10:46]	Rex Cronon:	on them*
[10:46]	Dahlia Trimble:	I'm on a V2 derivitive
[10:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	Yes, now I see - it says Dahlia is on V2.0
[10:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	So Kirsten did not change the channel, or whatever it is Emerald looks at
[10:46]	Latha Serevi:	Sorta goofy that we're relying on the texture-layer hacks for all this.
[10:47]	Dahlia Trimble:	dunno, Im using a proxy too but it doesnt change anything
[10:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	So TPVs outnumber LL's in this meeting. No surprise for us lot though.
[10:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	What's more surprising to me is when I go to live music in SL, and find 50% of the audience, AND the performer, on Emerald.
[10:48]	Dahlia Trimble:	Rex must do a lot of texting ;)
[10:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	That matches about what I see. 50%
[10:48]	Rex Cronon:	sorry. i don
[10:49]	Rex Cronon:	i don't understand what do u mean, dahlia?
[10:49]	Rex Cronon:	can u please explain
[10:49]	Dahlia Trimble:	I meant to type that in the groupies window
[10:49]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	when I first came back to SL I used the LL standard viewer b/c I don't need special abilities, just trying to make a community in normal fashion. people quickly came forward to tell me that all the best and smartest people go on Emerald instead.
[10:49]	Mojito Sorbet:	Argh, now *I* can't TP out
[10:49]	Dahlia Trimble:	the way you abbreviate so much ;)
[10:49]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	so I think basically it's hot to be on emerald, lol
[10:50]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	even though not everyone actually even knows everything it can do
[10:50]	Rex Cronon:	is easy on the finbers:)
[10:50]	Rex Cronon:	lol. fingers*
[10:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	A Linden said recently something like "Management may now be realizing that our problems weren't caused just by bad viewer UI."
[10:51]	Imaze Rhiano:	Andrew's 0h is starting in 10 mins
[10:51]	Imaze Rhiano:	ooo... who did said that? :)
[10:51]	Rex Cronon:	that reminds me. i have something "nice" to show at his OH:)
[10:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll IM you
[10:52]	Rex Cronon:	it seems there is a way to mess with whoever is trying to steal your prims
[10:53]	Imaze Rhiano:	I am heading to andrew's see you there! byyyyyyye...
[10:53]	Rex Cronon:	ok
[10:54]	Rex Cronon:	any brave souls here?
[10:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	If you think someone can "steal your prim" then you have larger issues to worry about :P
[10:54]	David Levine:	hello from the droid
[10:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe. Good gadget?
[10:55]	Rex Cronon:	hi droid user
[10:55]	David Levine:	yep
[10:55]	Rex Cronon:	is your droid viewr text only?
[10:56]	Morgaine Dinova logs in to OSgrid ready for Opensim meeting
[10:56]	David Levine:	gets maps aatm
[10:56]	David Levine:	gets maps but mostly texht
[10:56]	Rex Cronon:	btw why is zha so silent?
[10:57]	Zha Ewry:	Cause I have RL people in my office
[10:57]	Rex Cronon:	ok. just makeing sure u didn't crash:)
[10:57]	Rex Cronon:	making*
[10:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Like any advanced human, Zha is delegating unimportant functions like world presence to automata.
[10:58]	Zha Ewry snorts
[10:58]	Zha Ewry:	Just busy doing three tings at once
[10:58]	Rex Cronon:	ok. i am goind to andrew's oh. tc everybody
[10:58]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	do you have to be leet to go to that?
[10:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Rex
[10:59]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	bye rex
[11:00]	Dahlia Trimble:	bye all :)
[11:01]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	see you :-)
[11:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm actually wondering how to present multi-presence in a single client. There are lots of alternatives, from simple split screen to making one primary and the others portals in-world in the first.
[11:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, Imprudence is very popular in OSgrid now. In Lbsa Plaza, I'm seeing, 6 x Imprudence, 1 x Emerald, and 8 or so unknown, which are probably Hippo mostly.
[11:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heading to Andrew's