User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-06-15

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[07:30] Oz Linden: Hi all
[07:30] WolfPup Lowenhar: and just how did you do that?
[07:30] Jonathan Yap: Good morning Oz
[07:30] WolfPup Lowenhar: hey oz
[07:30] Ardy Lay: Good morning Oz.
[07:30] Jonathan Yap: Viewer compiling issues being discussed
[07:30] WolfPup Lowenhar: yep
[07:31] Oz Linden: I see that, but they are Windows issues, which I am totally unable to help with, I'm afraid
[07:31] Jonathan Yap: You are a mac person?
[07:31] WolfPup Lowenhar: got a majoy issue with forward compatibility useing different build systems in windows systems
[07:32] Ardy Lay: Heh, not really "Windows issues", more like he wants to be stubborn and use a newer compiler. :-)
[07:32] Oz Linden: I'm using a Mac as my primary system these days, but I'm really a Linux person
[07:32] Ardy Lay: It can be done it's just more work.
[07:33] WolfPup Lowenhar: i do not realy mind but MS dost not even support vc80 any more
[07:33] Ardy Lay: I am not asking MS for help with it so I don't care if the "support it" or not.
[07:33] WolfPup Lowenhar: they only support vc90 and vc100
[07:34] Oz Linden: but surely it doesn't make much sense to have the build system be focused on obsolete tools?
[07:34] Ardy Lay: Probably not but you have to make a lot of changes inside LL to get away from VS80.
[07:35] Ardy Lay: I can wait.
[07:35] Oz Linden: Well, I'm afraid I'm almost completely ignorant of the issues
[07:36] Jonathan Yap: I have a feeling the idea is things are working as-is, so leave well-enough alone
[07:36] WolfPup Lowenhar: i cant even get develop.py to even make the proj files for vc100 cmake errors out saying tool not found
[07:36] Oz Linden: what tool?
[07:36] WolfPup Lowenhar: and i have all three fully installed as pro or better
[07:36] Ardy Lay: mt.exe?
[07:36] Jonathan Yap: Oz, I am not sure you want to get into a discussion about viewer compilations?
[07:37] Oz Linden: No, not really
[07:37] WolfPup Lowenhar: what ever tool it uses to build the project files
[07:37] Oz Linden: I had in mind a more high level topic for today
[07:37] WolfPup Lowenhar: oh?
[07:37] Oz Linden: I want your thoughts....
[07:37] Oz Linden: WHY SHOULD LINDEN LAB ENGAGE WITH OPEN SOURCE?
[07:38] Oz Linden: (this is not to say that we are not... it's just a seed for discussion)
[07:38] Mojito Sorbet: Because the viewers made by outside developers are advancing faster than the Linden ones, and that helps the users of your service
[07:38] Oz Linden: in particular - why is it in the interest of Linden Lab to do so?
[07:38] WolfPup Lowenhar: one thing it would give mor diversity
[07:38] Ardy Lay: Well, considering it has already happened, I would ask what good has come of it?
[07:39] Mojito Sorbet: It was Linden policy, for exmaple, to ignore the needs of disabled users. Third partyoies were expected to pick up the slack
[07:39] Oz Linden: Well, that's part of it (an important part),
[07:39] Mojito Sorbet: That would be a lot more difficult without at least a "reference viewer" to work from
[07:39] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Talking to the magical moderation machine to see if there's a new version of me...
[07:39] Moderation Scribe: mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
[07:39] Moderation Scribe: Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
[07:39] Moderation Scribe: Started transcribing...
[07:39] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Time set to 50.000000 minutes.
[07:40] NullBit String: apropos ignoring the blind, i just imed you asking for a tp, so i can get within hearing range ;)
[07:40] NullBit String: j/k
[07:40] NullBit String: and thank you :)
[07:40] Mojito Sorbet: One can only speculate, what percent of the people now using Emerald, would have just LEFT when Viewer2.0 came out
[07:41] NullBit String: yeah, you cant ask and get a accurate number, i would think
[07:41] Fleep Tuque: I don't know that people would have left entirely, but certainly has been good that there were other options
[07:42] Qie Niangao: That cuts both ways, actually. If there were no Emerald, acceptance of Viewer 2 might be higher.
[07:42] Oz Linden: I don't know whether or not there's any evidence to suggest that the usage of Emerald changed when VWR2 came out, but I -really- would rather not have another VWR2 bashing session right now
[07:42] Mojito Sorbet: And considering that the guy responsible for that stragegy has lost his job, we wonder how well the whole fiasco has gone over with LL management
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: This bears on your question about, what use is Oopen Source
[07:43] Jonathan Yap: I was using a tpv years ago that boosted up my frame rate to something reasonable, that was a big plus for me
[07:43] Fleep Tuque: Open source is key to this not being a small niche platform
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: "There is another". Diversity is good for survival
[07:43] Fleep Tuque: From an edu strandpoint, it's been a huge selling point to our IT staff and faculty
[07:43] Qie Niangao: I dunno if we're just making a laundry list of reasons for open source, but one is security. It's always *always* a mistake to rely on closed-source code for anything that has to be secure.
[07:44] Oz Linden: Here's a challenge for you... pretend that I'm the Linden Lab investors (not management).... convince me that they should support spending $$ on open source engagement. Where does the return on that investment come from?
[07:44] Fleep Tuque: they can tinker with the viewer, and do
[07:44] Eddi Decosta: Welcome Nyx „ã°
[07:44] Mojito Sorbet: The return on investment is that you might still be around in two years
[07:44] Oz Linden: Can you expand on that selling point Fleep?
[07:44] Fleep Tuque: Oz - MANY people still have hopes that Second Life becomes sort of like the "Mainland" of virtual world grids
[07:44] Fleep Tuque: Anyone can pop up an Opensim server
[07:44] Jonathan Yap: Oz, you get many more eyes looking at the code, fixing things, adding new features
[07:45] Fleep Tuque: but to find the people, the content, you come to the big city, which is SL
[07:45] Mojito Sorbet: With 30% less staff, you need all the extra eyes you can find
[07:45] Fleep Tuque: From the IT staff and faculty perspective, they aren't so interested in closed proprietary platforms -w hy would they?
[07:45] Fleep Tuque: It can't be used for teaching OR research
[07:45] Oz Linden: There is no data to suggest that SL won't be around in two years, Mojito - investors are not impressed by unsupported statements
[07:45] Fleep Tuque: OpenSource, on the other hand, can and does become a tool for teaching and learning
[07:46] Mojito Sorbet: A few previous cases come to mind...
[07:46] NullBit String: also, it gives engaged users, when they can sit down and write their own feature, features that would never be coded in the first place
[07:46] Jonathan Yap: And how do you measure the price of someone's contentment with a tpv? Various groups enjoy features not available in the LL viewers
[07:46] Oz Linden: With less staff, we have fewer resources to invest - the question is why it's better to invest them here
[07:46] Fleep Tuque: IT staff can learn more about how Second Lie works and customize viewers for our institution
[07:46] Mojito Sorbet: Ok, let me make a radical proposal
[07:46] Fleep Tuque: IT faculty can bring students into the ecosystem and do research projects using the opensource code
[07:46] Mojito Sorbet: Let Open Source be your ONLY development model. Servers included
[07:46] Qie Niangao: it would be nice if there were a solid example of a "mash-up" of SL and some other app (hint: social network) enabled by open source.
[07:46] Fleep Tuque: We've already had two people do their masters research on this
[07:46] Mojito Sorbet: Keep your eye o nthe ball. Linden's product is not softwrae - oits the service
[07:47] Fleep Tuque: and I see more interest in that growing.
[07:47] NullBit String: just last ight i saw a student seeking to do object recognition with the client, as part of his school work
[07:47] NullBit String: night
[07:47] WolfPup Lowenhar: i know one thing sice i got the code and have been working on it it has been helping me to rember a lot of things concerning coding and sytem enviroments
[07:47] WolfPup Lowenhar: and im an old school computer tech
[07:47] s Google Translator: and im an old school computer tech
[07:47] Fleep Tuque: nod
[07:47] Oz Linden: You're right, Mojito - it's the service - so how does helping open source make the service return more $ ?
[07:47] Fleep Tuque: It's a GREAT teaching tool, which I know edu is just one segment here
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: The service is running the grid, keeping the money flowing, customer service
[07:48] NullBit String: and added services like the voice morp
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: On the most robust server platform you can manage to get
[07:48] NullBit String: or lindex services
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: The more people working on that, the better
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: And you do not have the staff to do it!
[07:48] Jonathan Yap: Oz, I will ask you a similar question -- why did LL go from a monthy fee to access the grid to allowing free accounts?
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: The backlog of server bugs stretches into the mists, with NO activity
[07:49] Fleep Tuque: :(
[07:49] NullBit String: to boost the user count?
[07:49] Oz Linden: (believe me - I'm acutely aware of the bug backlog)
[07:49] Jonathan Yap: In the simple case it costs money to allow free account
[07:49] NullBit String: hoping some of them would convert to premium, though even though they may be free accounts (this one is) i still put $ into sl
[07:49] Jonathan Yap: But in the wider picture there was a good reason to do so...
[07:50] Oz Linden: how does open source boost the user count? viewers are already free
[07:50] Mojito Sorbet: Instead you throw resources at adding glittery objects to the viewer. Lack of whizzy feature sin the Viewer is NOT what is holding you back. It is the buggy server software
[07:50] Jonathan Yap: ..and so I would argue along similar lines for open source
[07:50] NullBit String: giving users a alternative or the feature they want, when ll dont have the resources to meet all demands in a client
[07:50] Fleep Tuque: Because Oz, the more people who have access too and can play with the technology, the more people who become aware of what's possible, the more likely they are to participate in the ecosystem and economy
[07:50] Oz Linden: Let me go back to a point that was raised earlier.... Security
[07:51] Oz Linden: Here's a question for you alll...
[07:52] Oz Linden: Given that opening the code has made it easy for others to build viewers that undermine the IPR in world (which is a key source of LL revenue), why should we keep doing it?
[07:52] Mojito Sorbet: The people who do encryption would say that a secret algorithm can not be as secure as an open one that can be inspected.
[07:52] Mojito Sorbet: How is IPR a source of revenue to LL???
[07:52] Oz Linden: (the NSA is a pretty good counter-example, Mojito, but that's not the question)
[07:53] Fleep Tuque: They get a cut on transaction fees on XStreet and currency transactions
[07:53] Jonathan Yap: 1) It is my understanding there were already copybot programs before the viewer was open sourced and 2) it is too late to close that door now
[07:53] Qie Niangao: Oz, because it was never difficult enough when the source wasn't open. It was never anything remotely like secure before.
[07:53] Fleep Tuque: Opensourcing the viewer didn't create that problem, it already existed
[07:54] NullBit String: indeed
[07:54] Fleep Tuque: in fact, opensourcing the viewer meant that more peopel were working ont he solution
[07:54] Zha Ewry: I think you could argue IPR (the multi terabyte cloud of it) offers Linden a pretty real competitive advantage (even ignoring the percentage cut for the microeconmy)
[07:54] Oz Linden: Without IPR in what people build, there is no foundation for value - all objects become free. Since LL makes something on all economic activity, that revenue rapidly goes down. Similarly, there's no incentive to pay $ for land on which to build a store if there's no way to make money selling in world
[07:54] Qie Niangao: I'd even argue that it probably helped to open-source the viewer. there were a lot of "secret exploits" that couldn't hide behind obscurity after the code was public
[07:54] Zha Ewry: But, the notion that simply opensourcing (especialyl with the core stuff now fully out in the public) didn't make copybot possible, just easier.
[07:55] NullBit String: would we have seen skin layer baking on avatars in the LL client, if it had not been for a open source bit of code to inspire it?
[07:55] Fleep Tuque: The feature additions alone that have come from the OS community.. yes, what Null just said.
[07:55] Mojito Sorbet: Media-on-aprim *originated* as a SnowGlobe project
[07:55] Qie Niangao: we really need Prok here to tell us we're all crazy.
[07:55] Oz Linden: Why should we make it easier?
[07:56] Fleep Tuque: The userbase helps tell you waht it needs and wants throught he OS community, that's why.
[07:56] Fleep Tuque: It does a lot of the work for you.
[07:56] Zha Ewry: Now.. if the questoin is "Why hasn't Linden been able to benefit as much as you might expect" from OpenSource ... I think that cirlces back to the "Why is it hard to get stuff back into mainlien" discussion of last week
[07:56] Mojito Sorbet: You are trying to sweep back the ocean with a broom
[07:56] NullBit String: because its in your interes to still be around in the future
[07:56] Oz Linden: (everyone here knows I totally believe in open source, right? I'm asking all this to get you thinking)
[07:56] Fleep Tuque: (nod yes) :)_
[07:57] Mojito Sorbet: I think it is poeple within Linden Labs who should be thinking about these issues. We already know it
[07:57] Zha Ewry: The "normal" (and I airquote that,) pah for OpenSource is nt quite happening with SL
[07:57] Raz Welles: It seems client feature additions woul d be benefited greatly by client side scripting- reducing wait time for jira's to push official client changse
[07:57] Raz Welles: *changes
[07:57] Oz Linden: That's a good point, Zha (and one I'm spending a lot of time on) but not the issue I want to discuss today... what is the long term strategic interest of LL as a business?
[07:57] Zha Ewry: Long Tail, Ecosystem, not goign the way of Prodify
[07:57] Fleep Tuque: My fear is, without opensourcing, if it becomes a closed shop entirely, it will just stagnate with only LL's resources to innovate and adapt to the changing web environment.
[07:58] Fleep Tuque: That way is suicide.
[07:58] Qie Niangao: that way is certainly *brittle*
[07:58] Oz Linden: (well, since I don't know what Prodify is, I certainly don't want to go whereever they went :-) )
[07:58] Zha Ewry: Classic long tail arguments.. If Linden lets people innnovate, you get lots of people trying new things out, which you'll never be able to afford to try as a closed shop
[07:58] WolfPup Lowenhar: i know one thing is that since i have an open souce of the viewer that i build on my system that my FPS for the viewer has been a lot better even in extreamly laggy areas
[07:58] Jonathan Yap: Prodigy = Prodigy mispelled
[07:59] Jonathan Yap: oops, never mind :)
[07:59] Fleep Tuque: Yes Zha exactly
[07:59] Raz Welles: I think, right now, the value in an open source client in particular is valuable to LL because jira's that get patches submitted give LL an idea of what users really want- rather than what higher ups guess user's want
[07:59] Oz Linden: ah
[07:59] Fleep Tuque: The value of crowdsourcing.
[07:59] Mojito Sorbet: Free labor! If only upstream worked. :(
[08:00] WolfPup Lowenhar: right now i have one of my own mods in my viewer
[08:00] Raz Welles: however an inherent flaw to that is that what people can manage to code int othe viewer after figuirng out client source, and what the general public wants, doesn't always match up all the time
[08:00] Oz Linden: Upstream certainly needs to get better... no argument
[08:00] Fleep Tuque: Virtual worlds as a WHOLE has not yet tipped (or tripped) into mainstream adoption, the more people involved in helping sell that vision, the better for Linden Lab and the metaverse more generally.
[08:00] Zha Ewry: So.. you have all he longtail arguments for features.. You also have the ecosystem arguments
[08:00] Zha Ewry: /me gestures at Fleep who just took that as a setup line
[08:00] Oz Linden: But right now, looking out, LL sees many devs who argue that patches should not be given back to LL, so how do we benefit?
[08:00] Fleep Tuque: :)
[08:01] Mojito Sorbet: You don't benfit, if you do not accept the patches
[08:01] Fleep Tuque: heh
[08:01] Zha Ewry: Are they arguing they should not be given back or arguing, that they don't like theContriution agreement?
[08:01] Oz Linden: I'm not talking about not accepting the ones we are given - I'm talking about those explicitly not given
[08:02] Oz Linden: Zha... in practice, there's no real difference
[08:02] WolfPup Lowenhar: it would be god for for the outside dev's if there work was more acknolaged in the code its self
[08:02] Zha Ewry: Well, they are all implicitly given, with a GPL license
[08:02] WolfPup Lowenhar: good*
[08:02] Zha Ewry: But.
[08:02] Zha Ewry: Right, without a clear, copyright assigment you're not comfortable
[08:02] Zha Ewry: (And wven with my IANAL hat on, I can understand that)
[08:02] Mojito Sorbet: What is it about GPL that LL does not get??
[08:03] Raz Welles: The part where someone can use your code to start their own company in exactly the same arena as you, and compete with you, even undermine you.
[08:03] Raz Welles: at least, that seems to be the cliche fear
[08:03] Oz Linden: remember, I'm playing the investor here... no investor is going to let the company confuse the value proposition by building the company on IPR they don't clearly own. Not happening, no way.
[08:03] Zha Ewry: I wonder if the Contribution Agreement could use the sort of love th Third Paty Viewer agreement got
[08:03] Mojito Sorbet: LL should be competing on its service, not on locking down the software used to access the service
[08:04] Fleep Tuque: For a long time, I thought LL's move would be to become the "paypal" of virtual worlds, letting other grids use the Linden currency since it is already a trusted model
[08:04] Oz Linden: LL isn't locking anything down
[08:04] Mojito Sorbet: "IPR they do not clearly own"? But what do you think LL's own IPR is, exactly?
[08:04] Zha Ewry: Oz's point, is that a lot of people don't feel a company is fully safe releasing code purely on GPL, the prefer "GPL + Copyright assignemnt"
[08:04] Raz Welles: Maybe LL should not think about opening it's maingrid source- but think about spearheading a new VW architecture and aiming to be a service that way- just like ubuntu is doing
[08:04] Raz Welles: a lot of our hands are tied on innovation due to server side constraints I think
[08:05] Qie Niangao: You know... slightly meta, or maybe off-topic altogether: In talking with investors or senior management, I'd be careful not to conflate open source with interoperability. The benefits, costs, risks, and timelines are very different.
[08:05] Oz Linden: All of the viewer code that can be (that we own) is available as open source under GPL... that's not at all locked
[08:05] Fleep Tuque: From my viewpoint, edu is moving to OpenSim because it's more flexible, but still come to SL for the content, the community, the economic stability
[08:05] Fleep Tuque: The best thing SL could do is to keep that position
[08:05] Fleep Tuque: Open but central.
[08:05] Oz Linden: Excellent point Qie
[08:05] Jonathan Yap: The constraints are to not break existing content, some of which is poorly programmed and years old
[08:06] Zha Ewry: Interestginly, the "hub" model works without opensource at all, just needs good clear public protocols, except.. the viewer is such a key part of the expeirence.
[08:06] Mojito Sorbet: SOmebody got the URL to Prospero's blog?
[08:06] Oz Linden: Even if you like the GPL (and mostly, I do) - it is not yet on sound legal footing (there are not yet enough court precedents that establish the validity of its terms)
[08:07] Zha Ewry: http://www.sonic.net/ ~rknop/blog/?p=272
[08:07] Zha Ewry: That what you're looking for?
[08:07] Mojito Sorbet: Thats the one
[08:07] Oz Linden: Copyright assignment is one way to future-proof licensing - if the GPL turns out to be invalidated in important ways, LL can change the license to one that is compatible with whatever new legal framework exists
[08:07] Mojito Sorbet: Oz, this guy left LL long before you got here
[08:07] Mojito Sorbet: You should read what he has to say
[08:08] Oz Linden: (I will, Mojito, but later)
[08:08] Zha Ewry: I think the Contribution Agreement has never been pitched to Devs that way Oz. Most of the community understands it (Not necesaril fairly) as "This lets Linden Release Private encombered Viewers on any licnese they want)
[08:09] Zha Ewry: c/)/"/-1
[08:09] WolfPup Lowenhar: talking about the GPL and court ruleings, mabey the reason there are fewwer ruleings dealing with it is because it gives the general codeing public greater freadoms to do more ti 'help improve' the products that it is associated with
[08:09] Oz Linden: well, it does in fact also do that - no argument - but note that LL has not done so
[08:09] Mojito Sorbet: Licence terms are all about what you *might* do
[08:09] Zha Ewry: Right, Oz, but I don't think anyone (not even Robla, who did a good job of communicating a lot of the issues) spent the time to walk about the GPL concerns Linden has.
[08:10] Oz Linden: There are few rulings because there have been few lawsuits... that's how US civil law works
[08:10] Zha Ewry: And Mojito's point is certanly exactly the reasonaing train we saw with the TPV discussion
[08:10] Zha Ewry: not "you haven't done this" but "You could, when space aliens held rayguns to your heads do thus"
[08:11] Fleep Tuque: I guess it seems clear to me that Opensim will be a real competitor to Second Life in the near term, and if so, then the question should be "If people move to opensim, what does SL bring to the table, how can SL benefit from that ecosystem".
[08:11] Mojito Sorbet: And we got the TPV policy changed, right at the last minute. After LL saidf there would be no changes
[08:11] Fleep Tuque: (sorry late on that thread, got a work call int he middle)
[08:11] Raz Welles: I don't think it will be opensim per se that people move to if a move happens
[08:11] Oz Linden: The copyright assignment has multiple purposes... but it's a pretty well established practice in open source now. Apache does the same thing (but the assignment is to the Apache foundation)
[08:12] Mojito Sorbet: But it could be something derived from OpenSim. Or one of the other technoligies under development
[08:12] Raz Welles: agreed with mojito
[08:12] Mojito Sorbet: Is the Apache Foundation a for-profit private corporation?
[08:12] Raz Welles: RealXtend has a very powerful featurelist atm, and is progressing really well
[08:12] Raz Welles: it uses a mod plugin to opensim
[08:13] Oz Linden: What difference does it make? The contributor won't profit either way
[08:13] Mojito Sorbet: And RealXttend's development model is entirely opensource
[08:14] Raz Welles: I was there yesterday, they have animated meshes, materials, and voice is progressing
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: I may be willing to contribute free engineeering to a public organization, like the animal shelter. Or Apache Foundation. Buit I am not going to offer free engineeering services to, say, IBM
[08:14] Raz Welles: just.. navigation is still quite difficult :P
[08:14] Oz Linden: Let me go back to another thing someone said (I forget who, but I'll find it later in the log).... What about developer/contributors getting credit more publically - is that important?
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: Can help one's resume
[08:14] WolfPup Lowenhar: that was me that said thatr
[08:15] Oz Linden: Why not, Mojito? If it makes your (and others) VW experience better, what do you care whether or not the hosting company makes money on it? (which, in the case of the viewer itself they do not)
[08:15] NullBit String: it does not cost LL much to give propper credit, instead of massing ppl into a long list of names
[08:15] Fleep Tuque: (I hadn't read Prospero's latest post, thanks for that link, he's saying _exactly_ what I've been saying here. Glad to know I'm not alone in that vision. Now if only LL would read it.) ;)
[08:16] Oz Linden: (believe me, being a visible open source contributor helps your resume)
[08:16] Oz Linden: What would be a better way of giving people credit?
[08:16] Fleep Tuque: My perception is it's less about credit and more about speed of integrating the fixes into the viewer
[08:16] Fleep Tuque: It's no incentive to bust your butt on something only to have it take a year to get used.
[08:17] Mojito Sorbet: Now, convincing your prospective boss that that OS contribution you made under a pseudonym is actually *you*, is a separate problem. haha
[08:17] Oz Linden: (Fleep - LL will read it - others certainly have, and now I will)
[08:17] Raz Welles: hehe
[08:17] Fleep Tuque: (Thanks Oz)
[08:17] Zha Ewry: /
[08:17] Mojito Sorbet: Hmm.. Digial signatures in the comments. That might work.
[08:17] Fleep Tuque: Opensouce works best when it is _agile_ development, which means rapid iteration, not slow as molasses.
[08:17] Mojito Sorbet: *Digital*
[08:18] Oz Linden: Well, Mojito - that's another legit purpose for the CA - it is not executed by the SL avatar, but by a verifyable human being)
[08:18] Mojito Sorbet: WHich is why I just thought of digital signatures.
[08:18] Fleep Tuque: Which I am heartened to hear, more frequent updates is in the works.
[08:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: mojito that is easy in windows enviroments as there are records kept in the system as to when things are moded and how and by whom
[08:18] Mojito Sorbet: Since I, the human being, hold the private key to my avatar's signature
[08:18] Oz Linden: Mojito ... not all problems are technical, and legal ones usually don't have technical solutions
[08:19] Fleep Tuque: Indeed.
[08:20] WolfPup Lowenhar: for instance my persona log on this meeting is going into a text file that will show that it was created be me useing my real name ansd any modifications to that file will have a digidal signature on them
[08:21] Oz Linden: This all suggests a topic for the next meeting...
[08:21] Oz Linden: How should open source contributors be recognized?
[08:21] WolfPup Lowenhar: plus when you make patch files the one you make and offer to LL has a digital signiture on it saying who RL made it and when
[08:21] Fleep Tuque: I'm really not convinced that credit or lack of is a primary motivator, the primary motivators are wanting things to work, wanting to do something new, experimenting, extending..
[08:22] Fleep Tuque: and then seeing the results of that work benefiting more than just yourself.
[08:22] Oz Linden: digital signatures have little or no legal standing yet (see previous comment about legal problems)
[08:22] Fleep Tuque: (it varies from state to state in the US)
[08:22] Zha Ewry: I think the other big thing that would help, in terms of getting people more inclined to contribute would be less of the 2.0 behind closed doors experience, where pending patches which hadn't gotten sucked in were invalidated, and basically lost. I know that's been talked about happening, but there's yet to be a lot of sign of it actually happening
[08:22] Raz Welles: Whoever mentioned the part about it taking a year to get a patch in- I'm with them on that one
[08:22] NullBit String: as a danish citizen i have a government issued digital signature...
[08:22] Raz Welles: People are inclined to instant gratification :P
[08:22] Fleep Tuque: nod Raz
[08:23] Fleep Tuque: Or at least gratification this century as opposed to next. ;)
[08:23] Zha Ewry: Raz, wrose than a year.. pretty much any patch which didn't make it in by the time the 2.0 work forked is unlikely to ever be sucked in without someone re-working it
[08:23] Raz Welles: hehe
[08:23] Raz Welles: ack :
[08:23] WolfPup Lowenhar: right now i know im looking for people to help me improve a patch i made for the code
[08:23] Raz Welles: You could have developed your own custom vw in that time
[08:24] Oz Linden: So on that... suppose I were to be able to promise that for some given patch, a reworked version would go upstream immediately when reworked for 2.0... would you do it?
[08:24] NullBit String: also i think ppl will feel greater satisfaction knowing that thier work is integrated into main, faster, its no fun having to keep asking and waiting if/when ones code is getting used
[08:25] Mojito Sorbet: I was not talking about legal stranding. I was talking about getting credit for something to put on your resume. I don't have to convince a judge, just a prospective employer. WHo likely counts on digial signatures in their businesss anyway
[08:25] Raz Welles: I think that also feeds back into client side scripting- but you'd need access to a lot of client guts
[08:25] Raz Welles: but then you have problem of plugin standardizations :P
[08:25] Zha Ewry: I think that, a clearer roadmap, a clear path into the release tree, and faster cycles all ouht to help.
[08:25] Zha Ewry: (As well as some of Merov's deperate attempts to make it more buildable)
[08:25] Raz Welles: Yes, faster cycles definitely
[08:26] Zha Ewry: (Last I looked, 1/4 of the traffic on the various viewer mailing lists is about getting the build envionrment consistently working )
[08:26] NullBit String: nyx, would you not agree that your OH is more about _when_ something will get included, and not so much about what we might include of new features, and your usual answer being "no comment" or "year 2039"
[08:27] WolfPup Lowenhar: zha we were even just discussing that befor the OH started this morning
[08:27] Oz Linden: Zha... believe me, I'm still trying to get my first build to work... I'm very aware of the probems with building
[08:27] Oz Linden: Come on NullBit... no hyperbole... no one has ever used 2039
[08:28] WolfPup Lowenhar: it took me a week to get my frist successful build
[08:28] Raz Welles: I spent a whole day gathering sdk's and such
[08:28] Nyx Linden: Nullbit - I've been doing my work in the open for the past quarter - we've been messaging much more clearly recently
[08:28] Raz Welles: and attempting to build
[08:28] WolfPup Lowenhar: now that is all im running on
[08:28] Latif Khalifa: it's 2027, everybody knows :P
[08:28] NullBit String: *grins*
[08:29] Latif Khalifa: /me running on freshly compiled viewer external for the lolz
[08:29] Oz Linden: Our time this morning is up.... I need to go prep for a meeting. Thanks everyone for a very helpful discussion.
[08:29] Jonathan Yap: Oz, what are you going to do with all this information?
[08:29] Qie Niangao: Thanks Oz.
[08:29] WolfPup Lowenhar: in fact right now i have been trying to figure out in the code the input for nearby chat is handles so i can recode it to truly be always active when i just click inwold
[08:29] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Your timer has expired!
[08:30] Oz Linden: Use it to sell Linden Lab on doing the right thing of course
[08:30] Latif Khalifa: /me needs to update his calendar to note this OH
[08:30] WolfPup Lowenhar: tc oz
[08:30] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Oz
[08:30] Zha Ewry: Thanks Oz
[08:30] Latif Khalifa: take care oz
[08:30] NullBit String: yes, thanks for bringing up these questions
[08:30] Fleep Tuque: Thanks Oz, and good luck
[08:30] Zha Ewry: and.. if your sellign hits more questoins.. bring 'em back and we'll tackl them too ;-)
[08:30] WolfPup Lowenhar: yes good luck oz

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