AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23

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  • [9:33] Latha Serevi: So hey, Groupies. OGP. Shall we?
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: Morning all
  • [9:34] Mirt Tenk: afternoon :-)
  • [9:34] Zha Ewry: thinks the whole world ought just accept our linden overloads and adopt LST
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: LSD?
  • [9:34] Tray Guisse: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: No, no, that's our wall street overloads, who were clearly taking potent drugs while doing risk assesment
  • [9:35] Esmayeeli Delphin: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [9:35] FWord Utorid: lucky wall street bastards
  • [9:35] Saijanai: Kuhn: overloads = overloads. Cute mistype
  • [9:35] Saijanai: Kuhn: overlords*
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: shrugs
  • [9:35] Latha Serevi: I, for one, support our new ant overlords.
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: I can't ype worth anything today
  • [9:35] Rex Cronon: hello everbyody
  • [9:35] FWord Utorid: kent bruckman would be proud, latha
  • [9:35] Esmayeeli Delphin: hello
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: So.. do we have any agenda items from other peopel?
  • [9:36] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [9:36] Saijanai: Kuhn: Just wanted to brag that I got a semi-workign GUI for pyogp
  • [9:36] Mirt Tenk: go Sai!
  • [9:36] Saijanai: Kuhn: the fact that it won't support the drafft_3 protocols should be kept behind the curtain
  • [9:36] Latha Serevi: Possible topic on trust-group-management, ACL's vs capabilities, etc.
  • [9:37] Latha Serevi: what's on your plate, Zha?
  • [9:37] Teravus Ousley: (It will eventually, in the mean time.. you can still use r2 on OpenSimulator..
  • [9:37] Teravus Ousley: )
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: well.. one quick thing.. just in case anyone hasn't seen this...
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: [1]
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: what we're doing isn't exactly a traditional standards activity.. but.. it certainly falls under that general umbrella
  • [9:39] Latha Serevi: All I see is PR doubletalk. Does it mean something?
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [9:39] Teravus Ousley: heh
  • [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: better resign. Fails the membership stndard
  • [9:39] Teravus Ousley: voiced my thoughts.. actually
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: It means, roughly, if we doing something that you don't think is clear, or transparent, please bring it to my attention
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: I actually think, that as choatic as this process is
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: its about as transparent as it gets
  • [9:40] Latha Serevi: Cool. Perhaps that's my cue to mention: hey, is OGP too Linden-controlled? Are we "helping" with something that we have no real control over?
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: Good question
  • [9:40] Saijanai: Kuhn: OGP? Nyah. I think they're vry serious about makign it as open as possible
  • [9:41] Latha Serevi: the "bosses" are serious about that, yes.
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: Given that all the editors are Lindens, and the document is worke dunt the Linden Contrbution agreement, its a fair question
  • [9:41] Saijanai: Kuhn: Now, the OpenSource viewer, I think, is possibly another conversation altogether
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: And, certainly, if people have concerns about that, we should raise them
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: I don't see LL undermining their business entirely, but maybe they all *want* to lost their jobs, or they figure they will get better jobs if there are more opensims
  • [9:42] Saijanai: Kuhn: Zha, my own take is that the vewer contribution agreement is redundant given its under the Apache license but that's not exactly a legal opinion
  • [9:42] Tess Linden: Yes, please do talk about this if you feel like we are not being open enough
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: I have one topic, which is to follow up on the long running mailing list im./chat discussion
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: Tess, you never call, you never write.
  • [9:42] Latha Serevi: I only have questions at this point; but am wondering if clearly independent folks like Gareth and Tao might feel like their natural place would not be under a Linden-controlled umbrella.
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: and, to also see if we're all formally endoring, the comment Tess (I think) made earlier in the week, about the trust/connection stuff
  • [9:43] FWord Utorid: We feel you could be more... sensitive... to our needs.
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: being the next big thing, but pusjhgin on other stuff, while we work on that...
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: If that's our next set of steps
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: (Trust/Security) with a bunch of parallel smaller activities while we do the big one
  • [9:43] Yuu Nakamichi: oops, sorry rex :)
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: we should probably make it clear in the Wiki and in our planning
  • [9:44] Rex Cronon: no worry
  • [9:44] Tess Linden: It's tough trying to focus and make progress while there are decisions and designs to be made
  • [9:44] Tess Linden: don't want to steer us all in multiple directions either
  • [9:44] FWord Utorid: Honestly, in the long term I am sure there will be a version of VW that is not fundamentally one organizations IP, and will not be limited to maintaining backwards compatibility wit this one
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: Fairly late in the mailling list discusison, I noticed some owrds about doing the IM as mostly "here's the service" and not much more
  • [9:45] Dale Innis: Well, "here's the service", and also setting up the authenticatino.
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: That actually ties to a bunch of related stuff, which is currently deeply entangeld but could be less so...
  • [9:45] Saijanai: Kuhn: My own belief is that the current bits of teh OGP are quite platform neutral
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: Profiles, Landmarks, etc.
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: Once could argue that all of these could be just pointed to by the various domains
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: but...
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: I think you could end up with a very incoherent user expeirnce
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: (and no, that is not an invite to discuss the current coherency of expeirence)
  • [9:46] Teravus Ousley: Well, strap in for the long haul.. because... we've got quite a few more messages to go to get region domains and agent domains talking with services..
  • [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: sighs in relief. Too early to be coherent letalone talk about it
  • [9:47] Teravus Ousley: :D
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: indeed, teravus
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: and.. we also, need, I think a coherent description of what we mean
  • [9:47] Effie's F-Flight: Hud 0.2: All Go
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: by region domain, and grid, to be honest
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: That's at least as unclear for OpenSim, as it is for the OGP spec
  • [9:48] Latha Serevi: We seem to have dived right in to the continuing IM discussion. I'm not quite ready to make this meeting another how-do-we-IM meeting, m yself...
  • [9:48] Teravus Ousley: Well.. the idea of 'Grid' is encapsulated in the region domain currently..
  • [9:48] Saijanai: Kuhn: Zha, Signpost Martin and I had a discussion a while back about adressing. Is there really only one domain per url or is it possible to have sub-regions of some kind, as well?
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: I see no tie beyween URL and domain
  • [9:48] Saijanai: Kuhn: estates/sub-domains/subgrids
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: with one exception
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: a domain, probably has a well konwn URL
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: Point of first contact, and all
  • [9:49] Teravus Ousley: Yeah.. a difference in terms.. i think.
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: but.. its consintuients, I don't see as having any DNS dependency
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: Icould imagine a regiona domain
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: "Zha's friends"
  • [9:49] Teravus Ousley: A Region Domain.. isn't a domain .. like an address.. it's a domain of things..
  • [9:49] FWord Utorid: anyway, to address the earlier issue... I don't think LL is being nebulous and I think this process has been open enough, to anyone who cares to look through the thousands of pages of technotalk.
  • [9:50] Dale Innis: Why would you want to have multiple domains with the same URL?
  • [9:50] Saijanai: Kuhn: sure, but when addressed in teh OGP, its cap/region_name
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: with sims liek "ZhaSim1.zhasorhg.org"
  • [9:50] Latha Serevi: Isn't a RD a host that takes on a meta-region role, performing particular functions that we are to define?
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: "Dalessime2.dalesGoofySims.org"
  • [9:50] Latha Serevi: (and has absolutely nothing to do with domain names?)
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: No tie at all to DNS
  • [9:51] Dale Innis: Yeah, "domain" as in RD and "domain" as in DNS are entirely different
  • [9:51] Dale Innis:  :) what she said
  • [9:51] Saijanai: Kuhn: well, that's the thing. We have TP and regionslinked intimately at this point
  • [9:51] Effie's F-Flight: Hud 0.2: All Go
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: But not domains
  • [9:51] Teravus Ousley: A region domain.. is essentially an organization of regions under 'one roof'
  • [9:51] Dale Innis: Well, you do gotta TP to a region, sort of by definition.
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: In fact, Region Domain, is barely a concept
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: I've been arguing, since late 2008, that Domains are
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: a group of services which share a single trust pattern, and a single set of properties
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: So, you can treat them as opaque outside, and uniformly
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: but.. I don't htink anyone has gone and distilled this out
  • [9:52] Saijanai: Kuhn: well, can we broaden that a bit to suggestion that the base region shares all propeties, but that sub-regions might vary them somewhat? Different physics, differnt graphics...
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: Not sure
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: One reason I did that exact wording
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: was so that you could allow edge touch within domains
  • [9:53] Latha Serevi: to me, (region, agent) "domain" = "aggregate of", "folder of", "container for", "resource discovery point for", "way to avoid listing every indivudual one"
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: "There will be no disriptive changes in trust, or basic UI proprerites"
  • [9:53] Saijanai: Kuhn: because your group of sims here might be SL-life in physics, but that group over there might have experimental physics demos running
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: Latha, exactly
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: Its a way of not having to konw all the bits inside "Zha's Region"
  • [9:54] Saijanai: Kuhn: right. So the question aries can you ave edge to edge with such differnt groups of properties
  • [9:54] Dale Innis: Sure, you can.
  • [9:54] Dale Innis: Not clear to me that what physics engine is running matters for OGP purposes at all?
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: ot so clear...
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: The Dead Reckoner, dale, amont others
  • [9:55] Latha Serevi: I think those are a level below anyhow, Sai. Domains seem to be at the resource discovery and authentication and proxying level right now.
  • [9:55] FWord Utorid: I don't want to interject something here that could be despairing, but... is there an end game objective for these processes?
  • [9:55] Dale Innis: interoperability :)
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: and.. depending on how we define domain, yes or no
  • [9:55] FWord Utorid: like, do we have some genuine milestones going?
  • [9:55] Saijanai: Kuhn: Yeah, but we seem alsoto use it for TP and eventuall y for IM and trust relationships
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: We do, FWord
  • [9:55] FWord Utorid: dale innis, that's a very broad term by itself.
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: Zero's scary numbers
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: and related
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: My personal goal
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: is to have a set of well define web services, which can be used to assemble 90% of what's int he current stet of virtual worlds
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: (I'm willing to believe the last 10% is going to be specializes)
  • [9:57] Effie's F-Flight: Hud 0.2: All Go
  • [9:57] Latha Serevi: How about one level less vague, Zha, like "define an OGP that can hook up opensimulator.org with a SL-like client and interoperate with SL, in a way vaguely acceptable to both open soucre folks and LL"
  • [9:58] Saijanai: Kuhn: That's the frst goal, I think, but with an eye to making it generic enough to work with other VW's if they want
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: End goal i stick to
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: First goal?
  • [9:58] Latha Serevi: (and this goes back to my point that I think we need to clarify the opensimulator.org "pole" of this back-and-forth
  • [9:58] FWord Utorid: ok. the question in my mind is, interoperable with *what* vw's?
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: OpenSim and LL and related, being able to do full interop
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: I view this as
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: OpenSim, as very easy staritng point
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: When we have a good story there
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: we ought to be abel to ask
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: "So, what is missing so that we can't descibe: Lively, ActiveWorlds, Eve online, weblins"
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: and so on
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: and then go and a)
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: be able to describe it
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: and b) entice people into using it
  • [10:00] FWord Utorid: those are interesting VWs to name, I wonder if they would want the interoperability
  • [10:00] FWord Utorid: I recall initialliy, MSN Messenger strove for interoperability with AOL Instant Messenger, but they didn't talk to AOL about it
  • [10:00] Saijanai: Kuhn: at this pont, doubtful
  • [10:00] FWord Utorid: and AOL got displeased about it, and would boot MSN users every couple of minutes
  • [10:01] FWord Utorid: I like the idea of being able to do the intercommunication and multiple experience as much as everyone, I just wonder if someone official needs to send them an email... "Hey, we want to... interface with you..."
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: Well
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: The message has been said a lot, at VW conferences, and such
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: its a good point tho
  • [10:02] FWord Utorid: i like lively, it would be interesting to be able to monitor SL from lively on lesser systems
  • [10:02] Goldie Katsu: I think we can't define interoperability...but we can identify funcitons that we want to enable and identify if we have implemented protocol layer sufficiently to leave the implementation details to the various worlds.
  • [10:02] FWord Utorid: but google has a say, I think
  • [10:02] Saijanai: Kuhn: isn't there a OS bridge to Lively already?
  • [10:03] Goldie Katsu: hopes her coffeee has kicked in enough so that that came out as english.
  • [10:03] FWord Utorid: is there? I want one
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: The way i think of it, is that by doing OpenSim, and Linde well
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: we kind of become an attractive nusiance
  • [10:03] Rex Cronon: lively doesn't want to work for me
  • [10:03] FWord Utorid: ok. So we could call milestone 1 as being a clean implementation of opensim + LL/SL integration
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: That's my take on milestone 1, yes, FW
  • [10:04] Saijanai: Kuhn: Milestone 1.0
  • [10:04] Teravus Ousley: Divide and conquer.. Open Standards and innovation of a technology.
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: and, if you havent' seen the panel at VW2008
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: the argument is
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: OpenSource (OpenSim) for the living lab effect
  • [10:04] Latha Serevi: (milestone 1 will presumably be a drastic simplification of (the most critical bits of) SL, right?)
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: and Standards to allow parallel innovatoin
  • [10:04] FWord Utorid: ok. that actually makes sense. would XMPP and the new IM systems that Tess was discussing last week fit in Milestone 1, or are they a separate Linden initiative for their internal business?
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: Not sure, Latha, that's largely when do we decalre victory
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: and, in general,given the OGP desire to be "use the web as it is"
  • [10:05] Latha Serevi: My rule of thumb would be, if there's no 2nd server taht supports it, it's not in milestone 1
  • [10:05] Teravus Ousley: Latest word on that seems to be.. connection with other IM Services is to be outside the scope of OGP
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: Which is odd to me
  • [10:05] FWord Utorid: I was sort of pointing that at tess sideways
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: Because, at some level, if you can define it clearly, you get to get out of that buinss
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: byut.. that goes back to coherency too
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: (The fewre things OGP has to describe, but can rather manage by referecen, the better, in genersal)
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: This is all a very loosely knit come as you are party where we never have even the vaguest of dates or anything. if it will take 100 years, so be it, but i wonder if the computer will run on a jar of larvae by that time and this would be obsoleted
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: well..
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: Some interesting date sto contemplate
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: I think we need a champion of justice that says 'THIS WILL BE DONE OR PEOPLE WILL MELT', and I vote for someone other than me, but I do think there needs to be a champion of justice.
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: The OpenSim discussion of a 1Q09 Beta
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: I'd like to be in a place where in that beta, we had enough basics, so all the rest of OGP work could be modules, without breaking trunk at all
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: It took about 3 iteratoins to get teleport to gel
  • [10:08] Teravus Ousley: (technically.. OGP *is* in a module in OpenSimulator.. )
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: I think we've one more to come, when we sort out the turst stuff
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: heh.
  • [10:09] FWord Utorid: well, I would say, at the point where it is boxed in and trunk would have to be broken, that's 1.0. then, 2.0 is where the new ideas come in, and screw up all of the old things
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: I know, Ter, but.. that's the teleport/login bit
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: if we do trust/auth, and few more, I'm betting its a bit more messy
  • [10:09] FWord Utorid: but I do not want to be the champion, I just want free stuff.
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: hands FWord a shiny plywood prim
  • [10:10] Teravus Ousley: potentially.. unless we regulate it with SSL Certificate Authority validation.. heh
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: $0LL, too
  • [10:10] Teravus Ousley: .. but that's another story..
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: for me, it would be interesting when I can get this server I bought to work, put an opensim server on it, and call it a day
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: I tink, even if we do, ter, there may be a few nasty disriptiove consequnces
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: But, yes
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: you lied, zha, that was L$10
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: blnks
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: you owe me now.
  • [10:11] Teravus Ousley: thinks that everything can be fit into the 10lb bag.. with just some refactoring!
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: either way... I just wonder where it's all going
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: thanks zha
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: i am forever in your debt
  • [10:11] Goldie Katsu: all depends on the number of dimensions
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: manumits FWord
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: So..
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: I'd be willing to offer an ambitious goal
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: That we have a version of the stuff needed to anchor component trust
  • [10:12] FWord Utorid: the primary concern is a development cycle of forever with no scope, people trying to add things until it falls apart, and there is no conclusive closure component so you can feel good about what was done, and then everything loses whatever cohesion it had.
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: in the spec, and coded in time to enter beta with the OpenSim beta
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: I think that's ambitious, but grounding
  • [10:13] Saijanai: Kuhn: Which will be approximately...?
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: Well
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: There has been alot of dfscussion of declaring beta at about the 2 year mark, which would be feb 09
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: That's a target, of course, since the community isn't going to be rushed if it isn't there
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: but. targets are grounding
  • [10:14] Teravus Ousley: isn't all that confident that OpenSim will be at beta status at that time.. based on current activity..
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:14] Latha Serevi: Zha, are you saying that the major role of OGP is to knit grid components together via authentication and resource discovery?
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: and I think the community isn't going to declare it to declare it
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: One of them
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: I think the core sets are:
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: Provide a consistent style of servcies
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: Provide a consistent form of discovery and authentication, and related
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: Sturcture the core services in our working exemplars
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: into decent cluster of functions
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: (roughlly the AD, RD asnd services)
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: and. enough of a shared way of doing extensible content rep
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: to desctibe current SL, and allow a bunch of innovation there
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: There are really, 4 clumps of function
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: The client
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: the Regions
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: The agent/auth./inventory/presence (agent domain)
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: and share backend utilties
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: (Assets, cash, etc)
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: No more than about 500-500 services ;-)
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: (all told)
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: I think to do this well
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: we need to sorto ut a coherent descroptoin of the SIM/Client 2 way httpish pipe
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: Almost everythign else, is REST web services, with some careful thought about where and how to mabnage trust
  • [10:18] Teravus Ousley: ~.o on that.. as.. it's UDP for Sim/Client mostly.. 99%
  • [10:18] Latha Serevi: I hope we can define a couple of levels of granularity -- "OGP draft 3" being more SL specific and low-level than the "authentication & resource discovery" level I hope to see.
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: nods at Latah
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: and.. The UDP/http boundary is a pain point
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: Somewhat because the long poll is messy and not as welldescribed as one woudl like (tho better in OGP 3)
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: and somewhat ebcauee serving it up well, is actuall non trivial
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: *because
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: naive one thread per connection impls of http
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: don't do well with it
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: But.. that said
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: 90% of what we move between the client and the sim
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: really belongs on http
  • [10:20] Teravus Ousley: still isn't convinced that http will perform better then UDP for anything but textures..
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: tecture fetch, in particular
  • [10:21] FWord Utorid: I still am not certain where the XMPP proposition fits into all of this, if it's a long term objective, or was more food for thought
  • [10:21] Saijanai: Kuhn: a thought I had. IS long-poll better for textures than reverse http?
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: Its not reverse http, Saij
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: for tectures its http in the normal diretion
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: Just GET the blasted thing
  • [10:21] Rex Cronon: there are some places that don't allow udp traffic
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: let the web, whic his optimiezed for http get do its thing
  • [10:21] Saijanai: Kuhn: well, the goal, I thought, was to get revere http workign with long-poll as a fallback
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Maybe, Saij
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Zero's not been pushing on it much lately
  • [10:22] Saijanai: Kuhn: ah, OK
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: So.. teravus?
  • [10:24] Tess Linden: is there a push do that before the teleport Beta ends?
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: do we want to actually measure the http vs UDP costs?
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: I think it would be insanely grounding to do that
  • [10:25] Teravus Ousley: Well, to do that, you must also factor in all of the various aspects, limitations, and error conditions of HTTP
  • [10:25] Tess Linden: grounding?
  • [10:26] Teravus Ousley: most descriptions of 'HTTP over UDP' simply don't factor in, timeouts.. errors.. lots of data.. data that changes often.
  • [10:26] Teravus Ousley: One thing in particular that comes to mind.. is inventory..
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: Well, if we say "we can replce the current UDP pipe with one that works with http long poll"
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: lets code that on OpenSim, and measure
  • [10:27] Teravus Ousley: .. we've tried to implement it and activate it over Caps several times.. and each time, it's failed spectacularly
  • [10:27] Dale Innis: Maybe we should have a Wiki page for the HTTP vs UDP discussion? Hate having good thoughts just buried in chat logs.
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: Failed on the client, or the spec, or?
  • [10:28] Dale Innis: must run to next meeting. wavewave!
  • [10:28] Teravus Ousley: Unfortunately.. the timeouts occur, and block further threads.. and inventory gets lost.. errors get cached and nobody gets their inventory
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: Hmmmm
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: Is that a implemntatoin issue, or.. fundamental
  • [10:28] Teravus Ousley: probably both.
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: one thought, is that, thiis is actually a place where we can share some learning
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: If, in fact, its really broken at the protocol level, we ought to understand why
  • [10:29] Teravus Ousley: .. some things.. are just not meant to be transferred over HTTP..
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: and.. it would be very nice, to have some client/testing support to sort that out
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: Oh, clearly Ter, just not sure how much of what SL moves fall in there
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: People manage 100MB xfers on http all the time
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: Footsteps, etc
  • [10:30] FWord Utorid: ok. so I just want to confirm, cross grid SL > opensim teleporting will be a 'fact of life' by the end of 1Q2009
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: realtime, low level
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: events?
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: UDP is pretty good
  • [10:31] Teravus Ousley: Sure.. but specifically a single request.. with files... and very fast running applications.
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: as long as you don't have too many, atw hich pont, UDP discarding
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: gets random
  • [10:31] Teravus Ousley: Things that are not fast.. need not apply.
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: Which is to say, that, if we can't spit out the http in an effiecnt way, its problemaic?
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: texture fetch, is blatently obviously good for http get
  • [10:32] FWord Utorid: ok? 2Q2009?
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: I don't think anyone has put a date down, yet, FW
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: and, with asset motion/shape motion?
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: I think 2Q09 is the earliest I'd even imagine it
  • [10:33] Teravus Ousley: Well, for inventory specifically.. on the one hand... it's good to cache.. so you don't have to make multiple requests for the same items.. BUT.. to cache the failures is just dumb.. and a problem in the implementation. HTTP spec recommends that people have maximum 2 threads per server.. and unforunately.. people have implemented that as a REQUIREMENT
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: Oh, I kow, that 2 per is awful
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: and, you should never cache, dynamic data.
  • [10:33] FWord Utorid: ok. I won't count on that 2Q2009 as an estimate either as carved in stone. Question then comes down to, how far is there to 'go' on it... and what areas need beef?
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: Trust proof, so you csan decide to hand out assets
  • [10:34] FWord Utorid: seeing as how in theory it has been 'done'.
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: and.. a simple extensible point to put the basic required policies
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: (Done, without assets, with assets, harder)
  • [10:35] Latha Serevi: Re cross-grid TP, we should also bear in mind that LL will drag its feet for a couple of years before allowing any TP to/from the main grid. That's not what anyone means by "cross grid SL > opensim teleporting by 2Q2009", right?
  • [10:38] Latha Serevi: .
  • [10:38] Kevin Paisley: ..
  • [10:38] Rex Cronon: so quite:)
  • [10:38] FWord Utorid: as far as I knew, this cross grid tp from SL to opensim was the specific agenda of the AWG, along with plotting a course
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: well, not in the large, until they have asset/ etc, I think
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: but
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: I don't sdpeak for LL, thank heavens
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: or speak
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: or type
  • [10:39] FWord Utorid: ok, so the whole thing is hinged on assets, which is an issue which will never be resolved
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: or emit morse code smoke signals
  • [10:39] FWord Utorid: so I must conclude that this process is where it will be for eternity
  • [10:40] Latha Serevi: FWord, just distinguish between "some people do it" and "LL main grid does it" and you'll be fine.
  • [10:40] FWord Utorid: not that there's anything wrong with that, I just am needing to rid myself of expectations.
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: I think, that its just hard to predict
  • [10:40] FWord Utorid: Latha, if it is not interoperable, it is not interoperable.
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: Zha, it becomes easy to predict, people are afraid to make decisions, thus no decisions will get made.
  • [10:41] Rex Cronon: fw, u should hope for the best and prepare for the worst:)
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: rex, I hate that statement.
  • [10:41] Latha Serevi: interoperable can mean "tech exists, and some of us can do it", or it can mean "LL lawyers have given the OK". Please notice the difference.
  • [10:41] Rex Cronon: lol
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: nothing personal.
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: Latha, right. If it is hinged on the viewpoint of lawyers, then it is dead.
  • [10:42] FWord Utorid: expectations dissipated, continue on your business ;)
  • [10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: suddenly feels verclempt
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: OK
  • [10:43] FWord Utorid: didn't mean to upset anyone, just wanted to not have illusions
  • [10:43] Latha Serevi: there is no one "it". there are several. we can expect great progress in tech demonstrations and in the ability to do important open grid functions that we can't do yet. Let's not get discouraged if that doesn't mean that Prokofy Neva joins us happily.
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: So... puting lawyers aside for a moment
  • [10:43] Goldie Katsu: yeah I think we can't spec the lawyers at the moment
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: I thinik I saw 2 interesting work items
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: 1) getting some good feedback/.test on the http/UDP issue
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: 2) some real milestones
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: ie what would 1.0 mean
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: and what are next majore activtiies
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: i can't see 1.0
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: without soring out the trust/security
  • [10:44] Saijanai: Kuhn: seems to me that Whump discussed OGP milestones a bit. Have you looked at his list?
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: and I also can't see it without having a tested/measured pipe for clients
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: (and the current mishmosh, doesn't count as that, tho, it does mostly work)
  • [10:47] Latha Serevi: A social-engineering topic to be discussed soon, I hope: it would behoove us to become less vague about the "open grid commmunity process" by which we move forward on "our" OGP spec at perhaps two levels of granularity.
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: I'd love to see a somewhat broader editorial board ;-)
  • [10:48] FWord Utorid: Tess asked earlier if LL was being open enough about this process, I think the notion of a legal blockade to progress is something that ought to be eradicated before high hopes turn out to be fallen ones. I personally wouldn't want to do a lot of work on something only to have the rug pulled out from under on it later.
  • [10:48] FWord Utorid: So, LL should have it's lawyers attending these meetings, if they have the final say on what can be done and what can't
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: Most lawyers think they do
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: In fact, they work for people, like CEOs
  • [10:49] FWord Utorid: Well, do you want to spend years fixing bugs on something to have it shut down?
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: Newp
  • [10:50] FWord Utorid: The bottom line is, if there is going to be someone at the end of all this saying 'Sure, technically you can do it, but we don't want it', then that should be clarified immediately, and in writing, or people will be upset.
  • [10:50] Latha Serevi: I look at it this way: "we" open-source-ish Groupies need to control our own sandbox. LL's open-grid-involved folks will naturally push in some of their own directions.
  • [10:50] Teravus Ousley: well, that's one way to get a Lawyer to say something.. tell them that, they could say something on a topic.. or sit through hundreds of meetings descussing technology that they probably have little understanding of.
  • [10:51] Latha Serevi: The destination is a thriving ecosystem of clients and servers, similar to the proto-WWW of httpd's and browsers, that is doing things together.
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: I'm very happy, if the OpenSim community becomes more of a pole for spec creation
  • [10:51] FWord Utorid: lawyers are apparently part of the interoperability potential, so they should be part of the protocol
  • [10:51] FWord Utorid: we need to have legal negotiation as part of the specification
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: And.. nicely said Latha
  • [10:52] FWord Utorid: the asset server should connect to the asshole server first, to get permission.
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: That's certiainly my vision of the end goal, ecosstem, and.. eventually lots fo compositions of the services into useful patterns
  • [10:52] FWord Utorid: it needs to be clear who is to blame
  • [10:52] Latha Serevi: growls at FWord. Are you being helpful right now, or just bitching?
  • [10:53] FWord Utorid: Latha, I am expressing myself.
  • [10:53] Latha Serevi: And I wish you wouldn't.
  • [10:53] FWord Utorid: I think the notion of a 2Q2009 release on this is something that could be avoided
  • [10:53] FWord Utorid: the technology isn't so far off
  • [10:53] FWord Utorid: the obstacle seems to be some legal questions which no one wants to answer
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: takes a deep breath
  • [10:55] Rex Cronon: what r the questions?
  • [10:55] Zha Ewry: The only legal tangle I've seen recenly was the TOS 4.2 stuff Gareth ran into
  • [10:55] Zha Ewry: (and that was specifically on the third rail of moving asset shapes)
  • [10:56] Teravus Ousley: isn't entirely sure he likes Infinity's view on the matter either.. was something along the lines of 'if they want to walk away from X users.. and X years of assets.. then fine with me'.
  • [10:56] Teravus Ousley: wonders if maybe that will change in the future?
  • [10:56] Mirt Tenk: srry, RL meeting calls, take care all
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: That said in what conetxt, Ter?
  • [10:56] Latha Serevi: agrees, this is a good time to adjourn. Flee! Flee!
  • [10:57] Teravus Ousley: It was in an OGP meeting.. a few weeks ago.
  • [10:57] Zha Ewry: In response to?
  • [10:57] Zha Ewry: (I'll g grubbing logs in the wiki, but...)
  • [10:57] Teravus Ousley: .... sort of reflects an ideal that some people would be nervous about.
  • [10:58] Teravus Ousley: It was in regards to discussion between a few lindens.. just before an OGP meeting took place.
  • [10:59] Teravus Ousley: .. about some changes in protocol and alternate views.
  • [10:59] Saijanai: Kuhn: [2]
  • [10:59] FWord Utorid: Teravus, one particular linden wasn't concerned with backwards compatibility?
  • [10:59] FWord Utorid: Or, he wants everything to stay the same?
  • [10:59] Teravus Ousley: yep.. I think it was the versioning discussion.
  • [10:59] Saijanai: Kuhn: [14:29
  • [10:59] Saijanai: Kuhn: [14:30
  • [11:00] FWord Utorid: Those million users are free to migrate to other platforms as they emerge
  • [11:00] Zha Ewry: ahh
  • [11:01] FWord Utorid: One thing of interest today, a jira related to avatar meshes and their somewhat chunky view in particular places where aesthetics are fundamental basically indicated that things will 'not improve'
  • [11:01] FWord Utorid: I wonder if we will be winding up with Montgomery Burns disease.
  • [11:01] Zha Ewry: sighs.
  • [11:01] Teravus Ousley: well, yes. I suppose there are certain statements that could easily be taken out of context.. because they're said in such a way that triggers nervousness.
  • [11:01] Goldie Katsu: on the trust front. I know I've seen a few wiki pages discussing the issue and people's ideas. Is there a place that has a link to all of these threads? I'm having a "trouble finding data" kind of day.
  • [11:02] Zha Ewry: I want better toes, and morre triangels at all the joints
  • [11:02] FWord Utorid: Teravus, keep in mind that someone is always nervous about something. Prokofy Neva despises the existance of this group, we make him nervous.
  • [11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: points to the sign next door to Whump's office
  • [11:02] FWord Utorid: zha, my particular beef on the avatar mesh was in the intimate areas, because thighs are wrong
  • [11:02] Saijanai: Kuhn: you can see it form here
  • [11:03] Latha Serevi: Goldie: the subset of https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability with the word "trust" in it?
  • [11:03] Saijanai: Kuhn: jsut like Russia
  • [11:03] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
  • [11:03] Rex Cronon: have fun
  • [11:03] Goldie Katsu: ty Latha.
  • [11:03] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [11:03] Zha Ewry: OK
  • [11:03] Teravus Ousley: take care
  • [11:03] Zha Ewry: and on that note
  • [11:04] Zha Ewry: see most of you at office hours...
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