AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11

[9:33] Sheet Spotter: Mind if I sit here, Saijanai?
[9:34] Sheet Spotter: I prefer unorthodox perches.
[9:34] Sheet Spotter: :-)
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: its a demo of the new touch events thing
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: so's this whiteboard which is tres kool
[9:37] Multi Gadget: v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: It's responsive enough to be acutally useful
[9:38] Zha Ewry: I'd love a way to say "Snapshot" this layer
[9:38] Zha Ewry: and such
[9:38] Zha Ewry: but it is a cool toy
[9:38] Zha Ewry: Ah.
[9:38] Zha Ewry: Saij?
[9:38] Zha Ewry: I am here
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: iknewthat
[9:39] Zha Ewry: The IM seemed like you hadn't noticed ;-)
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: welll....
[9:39] Zha Ewry: I have one tiny topic
[9:39] Zha Ewry: And a pile of RL chaos
[9:39] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
[9:39] Zha Ewry: Has anyone chewed through how we use local IDs?
[9:40] Zha Ewry: In particaulr, attachements, and local prims, and such, and how they are asigned
[9:40] Rex Cronon: i assume on rez
[9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: the UUIDs that are preduced on-rez?
[9:40] Zha Ewry: I made the imstake of looking closely at how they get rotaly reset on TP
[9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: looks green
[9:40] Latha Serevi: /eyes the rabbit. Strong prey drive. Mustn't ... mustn't ...
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning
[9:41] Rex Cronon: hiii
[9:41] Tara5 Oh: Kinda of a big sweeping question Zha but what to you think clouds have in common with virtual worlds re interoperability work?
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Hopefully nothing. Clouds are all walled gardens, at least for the moment.
[9:42] Henk Loening: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:42] Kerry Giha: Goodmorning
[9:42] Tara5 Oh: yes but what can VWs teach them about breaking down the walls??
[9:42] Latha Serevi: What's a cloud?
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Clouds are just compute frameworks
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Useful ways of tryign to epxose cheap MIPs
[9:42] Tara5 Oh: - seems like might be a good little piece of consulting work forAWG in the future hehe
[9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: another name for the SETI screensaver but with a fee
[9:44] Zha Ewry: So... everythign that a SIM holds is funny
[9:44] Latha Serevi: Tara5, upon reflection, there seem like plenty of subtle connections and overlaps.
[9:44] Zha Ewry: some things are UUIDs, most are local IDs
[9:44] Zha Ewry: And. what's brutal
[9:44] Zha Ewry: is when we TP, all of our attachments
[9:44] Zha Ewry: and our bake
[9:44] Zha Ewry: and all sorts of stuff
[9:44] Zha Ewry: are re-assigned
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: hoping INfinity's work to define a service query for group IM can be exteended to provide connection points for things like client P2P
[9:45] Zha Ewry: so.. if you tp into a space, and tp out, and back
[9:45] Zha Ewry: everyone sees a new set of local IDs for all your stuff
[9:45] Latha Serevi: (newcomers: Zha's question started out with "Has anyone chewed through how we use local IDs?
[9:40] Ewry: In: particaulr, attachements, and local prims, and such, and how they are asigned"
[9:45] Rex Cronon: the same thing happens when ucross sim borders. right?
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Yep
[9:45] Zha Ewry: When you add that to the horrible caching behavior on the client
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: those are stored for use only on the local sim, so it makes sense
[9:46] Zha Ewry: it totally beats you up load times
[9:46] Rex Cronon: maybe that is why vehicle have so much trouble crossing sim lines
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: ah... except to the client
[9:46] Tara5 Oh: well any one with interesting ideas let me know I was listenting to google, HP, Cisco and Microsoft debating interoperability of clouds and it sounded like they were a step or too behind AWG!
[9:46] Zha Ewry: I happened to be in a perverse mood last weekend
[9:47] Object: Touched.:
[9:47] [[User:Object: <-0.80392,|Object: <-0.80392,]]: -0.17206, 0.56931>
[9:47] Zha Ewry: And several of us happened to tp from one sim to the next, and I had lots of the debug consoles up
[9:47] Zha Ewry: and watched what came down the wire
[9:47] Zha Ewry: and realizzeed that by the time, I'd fetched all the local textures, and the local IDs of all the thing son my friends showed up
[9:48] Zha Ewry: I was reloading all thier textures from the sim
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: cheee
[9:49] Latha Serevi: off the top of my head: textures at least should be easy enough; any "local texture" (didn't know they existed before now) could have a universal UUID attached, as in "if you 've got this cached, use it"
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: but where does that universal UUID come from?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: nofs
[9:50] Zha Ewry: it doesn't need to be Universal
[9:50] Zha Ewry: but, it needs to be locally unique
[9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: noting the redunancy is appropriate here
[9:50] Zha Ewry: where local is pretty broad, but not infitnely
[9:50] Latha Serevi: Doesn't a constant texture have any kind of recognizable URI? It sure should, redundancy or no.
[9:50] Zha Ewry: The textures tend to be
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: on_rez the local simassigns its own UUID
[9:51] Zha Ewry: and they are UUIDs at the moent, but clearly you would like them tobe URIs, with stabel URNs so you could fetch them from lots of places
[9:51] Zha Ewry: (If URI, URN, and such actually were ever used)
[9:51] Latha Serevi: ...and it's fine for it to assign its own UUID, as long as it doesn't disconnect the new object from its old identity altogether
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Its all the rezzed prims and all the fdynamic texture
[9:51] Zha Ewry: and stuff that's temp
[9:52] Zha Ewry: When you TP, the new sim replaces them all
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: csribbles 50 temp prims
[9:52] Zha Ewry: which is fine from the visual sense
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: or tries
[9:52] Zha Ewry: but totally painful from the efficiency standpoint
[9:52] Sheet Spotter: It seems unreasonable to expect that attachments are a local ID. Unless of course you never leave your home sim. :-)
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: wow response time is near zero here
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Ahh
[9:53] Zha Ewry: But they are, scatrily
[9:53] Zha Ewry: as they are in the sim's name space
[9:53] Sheet Spotter: Where should they be? Where would we like them to be?
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: attachments are avatar-local...
[9:54] Sheet Spotter: Agent domain?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: I'm inclined to want them to be on the Agent Domain name space
[9:54] Latha Serevi: Are we talking about some kind of a tradeoff between "indirect reference to a possibly sluggish home asset server where the object originated" and "direct reference to a harder-to-recognize locally maintained asset on a sim" ?
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: as are baked textures
[9:54] Zha Ewry: And, not the original asset server,I think
[9:54] Zha Ewry: That just feels deeply wrong
[9:54] Zha Ewry: among other things
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha, how wide is the handover zone at a sim edge? Ie. how close to it does an av have to be for handover preloading to start? (or is it the camera position that triggers handover?)
[9:54] Zha Ewry: the asset rezzed into a scenegraph is not the same resource as the asset in stroage
[9:54] Zha Ewry: 10m, Morgaine
[9:54] Zha Ewry: with funny overlaps
[9:55] Lalinda Lovell: funny how?
[9:55] Latha Serevi: Zha, why not the original asset server, at least in principle, for the non-dynamic bits? With some caching help from the region?
[9:55] Morgaine Dinova: Triggered by av position, or by viewer camera position?
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Mostly, Latah, because the item rezed, is not the item stored
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Texturers, tho
[9:55] Zha Ewry: totally
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Give them a URL or URL to the source
[9:55] Zha Ewry: and let Akami or such handle them
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Prims and obejcts
[9:56] Zha Ewry: tho, in general
[9:56] Zha Ewry: rezzed into a scene
[9:56] Zha Ewry: (HUGs, are a painful sepcial case)
[9:56] Zha Ewry: *HUDs)
[9:56] Zha Ewry: need thier own identity
[9:56] Latha Serevi: Item rezzed is not the item stored. Except that most of the time, it is exactly the item stored, modulo a few position-like variables.
[9:56] Tara5 Oh: oops gotta run Veterans day and kid home from school cyas all soon !
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Dpends, a lot Latah
[9:56] Rex Cronon: bye tara
[9:57] Zha Ewry: sometimes a few, sometimes a lot
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and.. in terms of permisions and such
[9:57] Zha Ewry: its got a very different lifecycle
[9:57] Zha Ewry: They are clerarly related
[9:57] Zha Ewry: But.. I think
[9:57] Latha Serevi: Right - but don't we want to deal with the important common case of "exactly equal modulo position and rotation", for isntance? For caching reasons?
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: What triggers handover preloading, av position entering the 10m zone, or av's viewer camera position entering it?
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and chewing on this, is really subtle and not baked yet
[9:57] Tester Muggins: declined your inventory offer.
[9:58] Zha Ewry: I'm not sure Latah
[9:58] Zha Ewry: I'm wondering, with much slow musing, how to seperate out the two
[9:58] Zha Ewry: if I have a coipy item
[9:58] Zha Ewry: *copy item
[9:58] Zha Ewry: and rez it in six places
[9:58] Zha Ewry: I sort of want to have the 90% case be identical if I can
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Well just disable camera constraints, and move your camera into the 10m zone, and see if preload starts.
[9:59] Zha Ewry: but, i*NEED* the six items to have different resources in REST terms and web terms
[9:59] Zha Ewry: if I change one, I don't want the other 5 to change
[9:59] Zha Ewry: At the same time
[9:59] Latha Serevi: Indeed. So we need two addresses, and a caching-friendly way of handling copy-on-write-ish changes...
[9:59] Zha Ewry: I think so Latah
[10:00] Zha Ewry: *Latha
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I cannot ype your name, Latha, no idea why
[10:00] Widget Whiteberry: accepted your inventory offer.
[10:00] Zha Ewry: It is my most common typo in these meetings ;-(
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe because your yping suck? ;-)
[10:00] Zha Ewry: chuckles at Morgaine
[10:00] Zha Ewry: it does
[10:00] Zha Ewry: but.. for some reason
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Latha gets it worst than most
[10:01] Zha Ewry: anyway...
[10:01] Zha Ewry: I've been chomping on some ideas for this at the web level
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Unusual name. Our finger actions are cached and not under voluntary control mostly, and caching of unusual names seems to be borked.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Including asking if URIs and forwards and rediects might help
[10:02] Latha Serevi: Ick, redirects.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:02] Zha Ewry: I know
[10:02] Zha Ewry: But. at the same time
[10:02] Zha Ewry: make the ref to an agent domain resrouce
[10:02] Zha Ewry: have the agent domain redirect you to the current rezzed attachment location
[10:03] Zha Ewry: The client then knows that the thing is the same
[10:03] Zha Ewry: whether it is rezzed in simA or simB
[10:03] Sheet Spotter: Everyone on the sim/server will be accessing your Agent domain.
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: how will that work with 2 or more AAD's?
[10:03] Sheet Spotter: Should the sim/server simply cache it?
[10:03] Zha Ewry: They are already
[10:03] Zha Ewry: for IMs at least
[10:03] Zha Ewry: if the AD gets built out
[10:03] Zha Ewry: and the problem with caching
[10:03] Latha Serevi: I was thinking the opposite; region has all of the rezzed objects fully available locally, but each has a "source URI" and "what has changed map" of 1 or more bits TBD
[10:03] Zha Ewry: is that if we have a URL, in partricular
[10:04] xxx: Hello,: Avatar!
[10:04] Zha Ewry: you tend to end up bound onto the very physical server
[10:04] Zha Ewry: (well, the FQDN, you can hide behind that)
[10:04] Sheet Spotter: If everyone needs to rez your attachments, it may be more...convenient(?) to fetch them from a cache on the sim.
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Is this handover scheme going to continue to work with portals, eg. a "mirror" in the middle or the zone into which you can walk for TP, but into which you can also look, and see objects on the other side of the TP point?
[10:05] Zha Ewry: shrugs at Morgaine
[10:05] Zha Ewry: Interesting question
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I'd like to model the edge regions as special cases of the more general portal scheme
[10:05] Zha Ewry: in which case the behavior ought to be consistent
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, consistency would be good, simply so that we don't have to implement exceptions.
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Nor implement the mechanism twice.
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: that leads to an interesting case. Is it possible to create a Croquet-like portal where you can look at yourself?
[10:06] Latha Serevi: :-)
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: That boils down to the question, will a sim be able to hand over to itself. It should be able to, yes.
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: its a very kool, but silly, property of Croquet's dong things
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: doing*
[10:07] Tao Takashi: I have such a portal in my bathroom
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Pity mirrors aren't phantom ;-)
[10:08] Zha Ewry: if asim can't handle self hand-off
[10:08] Zha Ewry: the coders need to be shot
[10:09] j3rry Paine: why do programmers have round shoulders and flat foreheads?
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: The mirror reversal would be interesting, once you enter the world behind the mirror in a self-handover portal.
[10:09] j3rry Paine: they have round shoulders from when you aske them how to do something
[10:09] j3rry Paine: they have flat foreheads from when you tell them
[10:10] j3rry Paine: dollar to anyone who hasn't heard that one
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: And they have the glazed look from receiving too many conflicting specs ;-)
[10:10] j3rry Paine: huh?
[10:10] Zha Ewry: laughs
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Sorry, getting RL phone poundin here
[10:11] Zha Ewry: So...
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Exactly how we model things like local assets, into web space
[10:12] Zha Ewry: probably has moderate impacts in how we slowly evolev away from naked UUIDs
[10:12] Morgaine Dinova: The PHB-developer design pattern is wrong, inverted. The main operator should be a "Tell me what I want" operation.
[10:12] Zha Ewry: has the urge to buy fuzzy litlle URI wrappes for all the UUIDs
[10:13] Zha Ewry: If it actually was doable, I'd love to at least go to:
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: would it make sense, at least for the avatar-dominated ones like baked textures and attachments? Or is that too many conventions..
[10:13] Zha Ewry: urns in the form of
[10:13] Zha Ewry: "urn:ogp:lindenAsset:uuid"
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Of course, you put that URI into 99% of a web stack
[10:14] Zha Ewry: and it will go
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Urns are where the ashes of URIs are stored.
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: why not lindenAD:UUID
[10:14] Zha Ewry: "Huh?"
[10:14] Zha Ewry: you want to have urn:ogp
[10:15] Zha Ewry: to tell people that the scheme is OGP
[10:15] Zha Ewry: then you can parse out the next bit
[10:15] Zha Ewry: to determine what to do
[10:15] Zha Ewry: so you could, in theory
[10:15] Zha Ewry: go urn:ogp:linden:uuid
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: right. was wondering about the "LindenAsset" as opposed to "ADAsset"
[10:16] Zha Ewry: or urn:ogp:IbmCloudServer:uuid"
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: seems that the ADAsset would be a special case
[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: probalby a case of premature optimization ;-)
[10:17] Tao Takashi: has to go
[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: admires the sim lag
[10:18] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, did you talk to belxjander about his goole app AD idea?
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: owell
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: wow total sim lag local chatis boked
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: no-one talking but me or did I lose the conection?
[10:19] Zha Ewry: Distracted
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: K
[10:20] Rex Cronon: i mean see what u type
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: ?
[10:20] Rex Cronon: i still hear u
[10:20] Rex Cronon: u asked if u lost the connection
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: out of order message in local chat
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: How close are we to starting to handle objects in OGP?
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: wow look at that lag
[10:22] Zha Ewry: ok
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Was that chat lag, or was that attention lag
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Get-a-coffee lag for me
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm getting out of order in local chat and the whiteboard has a 10 second delay for drawing
[10:24] Sheet Spotter: AD => Attention Deficit. :-)
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Nice. Subsecond lag here.
[10:24] Rex Cronon: sai, i think lots of people find the new script fuction for getting pos of a face are kind of laggy
[10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: and your no-tresspassing signs flicker on and off on the parcel
[10:25] Rex Cronon: functions*
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: might be but shouldn't be affecting the rest of the sim unless everyne is drawing at once
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: oooh shiney
[10:25] Rex Cronon: how do u know who is trying to draw?
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: How does one erase, Sai?
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: I did
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: its temp on rez at this point
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, kk
[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Damen Hax worked it up a couple of nights ago in just a few mnutes using some code he had lying around
[10:26] Sheet Spotter: Temp Rez items can be an enormous source of lag.
[10:26] Sheet Spotter: The server almost pauses when they are first rezzed.
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmmm good to know
[10:27] Sheet Spotter: I don't know all the details, but I have seen Temp Rez bring an empty sim to its kness.
[10:27] Rex Cronon: sadly with mono, memory requirments r skyrocketing
[10:27] Sheet Spotter: *knees*
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: more out of order messages for me
[10:28] Zha Ewry: I look forward tot he next generation of that toy
[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: How far we are from handling objects in OGP? The world really revolves around objects, not login or teleport or ADs etc, so I'm concerned that OGP may be hardwiring in things that may be wrong or inefficient for object handling.
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: at this point, there's so little to the OGP its hard to see how
[10:30] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:30] Missile Defence!: v0.10: Alisha Matova, get ready for wave 1!
[10:31] Zha Ewry: I have been very gentl prodding Linden on more of this
[10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: When INfinity has a chance, she'll send me what she's done on the group IM stuff. SHould provide us with samples for client => AD and generic service discovery techniques
[10:32] Rex Cronon: missile defence?
[10:32] Alisha Matova: a friend made it, neat use of that function , ithink
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: both of which are lacking from the spec and would make the AD's useable already if it were available
[10:34] Zha Ewry: OK, RL is about to suck up my full attention
[10:34] Zha Ewry: One thing I would love to see brought up at Office Hours, and people thinking about
[10:34] Zha Ewry: is the questoin fo when does OGP actually refer to an asset, and such
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: But seems to be very hard to get anyone to talk about it
[10:36] Zha Ewry: They are in a pause, while they do a plannign cycle I think
[10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: there seems to be a hiring freeze also, but not sure
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: I sometimes wonder if the AWG is actually doing anything, since we're always waiting for delivery from LL. The original vision of a design group is so far back in the past now. We seem to be no more than commentators on things that LL dumps over the wall to us.
[10:38] Zha Ewry: That is a very good qustion Morgaine
[10:38] Zha Ewry: One way to fix that, would be coding in parallel in OpenSim
[10:39] Zha Ewry: the challange there, is the client
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, they're doing a fantastic job.
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: well, once we get the service discovery pattern and related output CAP pattern, we can start adding things ourselves
[10:39] Zha Ewry: and a client that supports it
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good point Sai
[10:40] Rex Cronon: does it have to be 3d client like the present viewer, or somthing simpler?
[10:40] Zha Ewry: Well, to test? No, but to be useful? Ueah
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I've got pyogp to the point it can display generic packets in a nice GUI. Tao has his limited AD and barxjander i working on a different AD based on google apps
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: and Dahlia has been working on a pyogre renderer for the pyov client
[10:41] Morgaine Dinova: That's excellent
[10:41] Morgaine Dinova: Except for the Google apps, lol
[10:41] Rex Cronon: maybe this infor should be on the awg page
[10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: so all we need is the client to AD and general service discovery and we can do whatever we want (sorta)
[10:42] Rex Cronon: could it be possible to add a blog to the awg page
[10:42] Rex Cronon: so that everybody knows the latest news?
[10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: dunno. I added a general category for user pages
[10:43] Rex Cronon: with u sai, the official blog master:) only u can add items to the blog:)
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: that seems silly
[10:44] Rex Cronon: u should schedule a little exercise afterwards:)
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess I should ask Rob L about htat
[10:45] Rex Cronon: usually pies tend to settle in all the wrong places:)
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: geeze more out of order messages
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, aye
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Get ready to be jealous ... I baked a huge 24x34cm apple pie yesterday. /me heads to kitchen for more coffee and pie.
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: pah, RL roomie/GF/whatever's hobby is baking
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: now you know the secret of my size
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:46] Rex Cronon: hmm. u shouldn't have used open chat for that piece of info:)
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: she baked a huge batch of petit beurre cookies just for the crust-making so now I'm stuck eating leftovers :-(
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: :-( is ironic
[10:47] Morgaine Dinova: The out of order messaging is curious. I like decoupling, but decoupling messages from time ordering constraints is taking it too far.
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: its an odd thing. It usually doesn't happen in local chat as that is sim local and coming in via a different kind of packet.
[10:48] Rex Cronon: it can also lead to very interesting conversations:)
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: but, given that eerything seems to be laggy, such as rezzing the drawing prims out of order, I guess its to be expected
[10:49] Zha Ewry: OK, RL demands my full attention...
[10:49] Zha Ewry: So.. see most of you at Office hours...
[10:49] Rex Cronon: bye zha

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11

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