AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16

pre-meeting discussion of plugins for Imprudence viewer

[8:58] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning
[8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: morning
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: How goes Sai?
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: eh. more drug changes, oddities in life, etc. Got 3 minor payig projects I have to juggle
[9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Oh Jeez, Whump is going to whump me, as I haven't logged in with PyOGP yet, ew :-(
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: tsk tsk
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: still time before you see him ;-)
[9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's a good position to be juggling, if they're paying projects :-) Gratz!
[9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: barely paying. Toe in water pay but best I can hope for at this point
[9:01] Morgaine Dinova: Cash is cash
[9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: true
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's been working on a C# Agent DOmain. Haven't seen or heard form her since she asked about how to log in to non LL agent domains with the ogp client
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Sai, in Imprudence we're currently debating implementation ideas for client-side scripting. I think you'd be interested, and we'd certainly value more input.
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: guess she got lost between worlds ;-)
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe she got assimilated by .NET
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the b oest model out there is the WoW API. THere's even a book available on it
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Funnily enough, we were considering doing unit tests with embedded Lua. But that's not the end goal, which would be multiple externally connected script processes along the lines of the multiprocess client.
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK
[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: I don't want to favour one particular language community, want to harness everyone :-)
[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hi dog!
[9:05] dogtow Hand: hello :o)
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: well, one seed I planted a while back with Tess was the idea that you can have multiple connection points to the same client, not necessarily on the same machine. Ala the smartphone servers for Second Life
[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: [1]
[9:06] Morgaine Dinova: Good
[9:06] Morgaine Dinova: What did Tess say about it?
[9:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Welll, she was the one who mentioned smartphone servers, so I guess its already on their radar
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: incidentally, message-passing between bits of the pyogp client is on Enus list
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: its pretty much what I had in mind for pyogp anyway. need GUI handlers, packet handlers and intermediate API handlers. Can expose them internally, externally, or both
[9:14] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I'd love to talk to Enus about the message passing, neat.
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: bython can do a quick and dirty dispatcher just based on dictionaries and lists of handlers
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: {"xxx_handler":[hanlder_A, Handler_B, handler_c...], ...}
[9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's pretty much JSON, so use JSON, hehe. No point reinventing wheels unless they're rounder ;-)
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: and you can filter comands based on prefixes or whatever so your external script files might not be able to handle GUI commands or whatever
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: well, yeah, but I'm talking pyogp right this second. Native dictionary/list handling in python
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: should map easily in and out of json, but was first pass at implementing such a thing without external libs of any kind
[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, just added a line to that thread:
[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: "If it does happen that someone binds their favourite language into the viewer as a user scripting language (even if it's Lua), I might respond by binding in Perl, Python, Ruby and Erlang, just to make the point that this is a road we don't want to travel down."
[9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but since pyogp is ython anyway that's not relevant to you point, I think.
[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, not relevant as I'm talking about the C++ viewer. If PyOGP becomes a full-blown viewer, then it does apply equally though --- no preference for Python for user-scripting. What the nucleus is programmed in should not influence what user scripts are written in. I want them all on a level playing field, so that everybody is supported equally.
[9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: sure.
[9:26] Morgaine Dinova: In any case, I kind of doubt that PyOGP would support user scripting by loading scripts into its own VM ... in that direction lies madness, bugs, and nil security.
[9:26] [[User:emoteur [scriptemoteur]|emoteur [scriptemoteur]]]: Script run-time error
[9:26] [[User:emoteur [scriptemoteur]|emoteur [scriptemoteur]]]: Stack-Heap Collision
[9:27] Zha Ewry: Woah. Tons of people on time. Did someone set an agenda?
[9:27] Dale Innis: Nah, we're just all on vacation and bored. :)
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: right. This was merely the parsing of message-passing. I was using the pythong dic/list format because it was easy to support.
[9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: blame brownian motion. We all just happened to vibrate in this general direction at the same time
[9:28] Object: Touched.:
[9:28] [[User:Object: <-0.53428,|Object: <-0.53428,]]: -0.35654, 0.76643>
[9:28] Dale Innis: Morgaine sweetie, your shoes are getting carried away. :)
[9:28] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: though, python has a neat trick with argument passing: (argList, *arg_vm **arg_arra)
[9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Dale darling, you say the nicest things. :-)
[9:28] Dale Innis: grins.
[9:29] Squirrel Wood: Pikapi!
[9:29] Dale Innis: rofls
[9:29] Morgaine Dinova: Somebody hack these shoes for me and remove the bling ;-) No perms, so you'll have to be creative ;-)
[9:29] Dale Innis: that would be challenging
[9:29] Squirrel Wood: ask a Linden ^^
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, "Official Linden Object Hacking Service"
[9:30] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[9:30] Squirrel Wood: hanku
[9:30] BlueWall Slade: export/import with TestClient
[9:30] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[9:30] Zha Ewry: hands Morgain a LM to L&E, and suggests the free signature sandles
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha, if you missed it, thread about viewer scripting/plugins: [2]
[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Tnx Zha. I have plenty of shoes, just none that I like. 99% of SL shoes look like paraplegic braces.
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, how goes teh AD work?
[9:32] Squirrel Wood: That is their exact reason for existence :p
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
[9:32] Dale Innis: So I think the ideas about plugins there are very good! Is there some relationship to serverside architecture?
[9:32] Zha Ewry: /Those are pretty good
[9:33] Zha Ewry: sliips them on
[9:34] Zha Ewry: Not up to Shiny things, but decent for zero linden and they don't bling :-)
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Dale: not at this stage, no, the initial C++ API client-side would just reflect the existing facilities available to the viewer. Hopefully those would expand, but hey, getting LL to do anything is a challange.
[9:34] Zha Ewry: thjo, to be honesst, they'd look funny on Zero
[9:34] Dale Innis: nods.
[9:35] Squirrel Wood: getting LL to add a freaking "Last Online" column to the friend list is... hopeless
[9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Are you guys actually affected by the bling, or just teasing me? In all my clients, it's barely a tiny sparkle.
[9:35] Squirrel Wood: the code is there (see group lists)
[9:35] Zha Ewry: So, as most of you probably konw, Linden's cutting back on Zero's office houra at the moment
[9:36] Squirrel Wood: Not just Zero
[9:36] Squirrel Wood: Torley too
[9:36] Squirrel Wood: They did some major restructuring at LL
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Benjamin cut back from 1/week to 1/month.
[9:36] Zha Ewry: Ahmm. Its about a inch diamete flickery thing on my screen
[9:37] Zha Ewry: From beyond your toes to well up your shins
[9:37] Dale Innis: ( It's a pretty large sparkle, but mostly just teasing :) )
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[9:37] Dale Innis: So what's up with that, the Lindens? Just the Bad Economic Times?
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: does look like someone tied a sparkler to your foot...
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Bah. If anyone at all is *really* affected by them, I'll take them off instantly.
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, aye, sparkler
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: I missed Guy Fawkes this year, sadly
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: So, agenda?
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to know what is up with Zha's AD...
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Seconded
[9:40] Zha Ewry: One sec, was turning off particles, cwhich is my noraml long term reaction to the bling
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: WOW!!!!
[9:40] Squirrel Wood: from last weeks torley hour.... Torley Linden: i'll first begin with an announcement, not of sadness... but nonetheless... this will be my *last* office hour at this time for a number of reasons. the GOOD news is... in the future, i'm counting on holding office hours at DIFFERENT times, maybe some here, maybe at other locations. and i'll be attending Documentation Team office hours because... LL recently reorg'ed and i'm on Doc Team alongside Jon, Jeremy, and Kate now!
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Darn Zha, I didn't know you were alergic to them. Taking them off
[9:40] Object: Touched.:
[9:40] [[User:Object: <-0.72499,|Object: <-0.72499,]]: -0.23725, 0.64661>
[9:40] Zha Ewry: They draw my eye

AW Groupies meeting

[9:41] Zha Ewry: anyway..
[9:41] Zha Ewry: What I'm unofficially doing is coding up a simple exmaplar of the AD (and the Login auth) code in C#, probably with a matching c# client
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Along the way, that means we should have both ends of the event queue done in C#
[9:42] sakura Navarita: ok i seem has ended up in pokemon area
[9:43] Squirrel Wood: fear my pikachu :p
[9:43] Zha Ewry: For what it's worth, I'm goign to explicitly code this as a set of web services, with less attention to the "domain" discussion
[9:43] sakura Navarita: pikachu cute
[9:44] Saijanai Kuhn:
[9:44] Squirrel Wood: eeeep
[9:44] Dale Innis: ( Ah, "reorged" hm )
[9:44] Zha Ewry: What this *ought* to give us, is a good clean place to drop in things like additional services, such as an IM gateway
[9:45] Zha Ewry: I also expect to slot in a simple X.509 based authenticatoin part there, as things move along
[9:45] Ollj Oh: should i know that molecule?
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: you see it every day...
[9:46] Zha Ewry: This currently, is a "We'll see how it all fits into the full offical work plans" story
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Well, you see with it every day ;)
[9:47] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:47] Patnad Babii: hi rex nice to see you :)
[9:47] Zha Ewry: offers her bi-annual safety tip: Do not let the punny scientists decide which molecule to use for a visulizatoin project, they will chose one which is "visual"
[9:47] Rex Cronon: hiii
[9:48] Ollj Oh: at least its not that complex
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Oh.. and before I forget.. Logistics....
[9:48] Morgaine Dinova: goes barefoot to support Zha's fetish
[9:48] Zha Ewry: I will be holding a lightweight meeting here next week, and off the week between chistrmas and new years
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex
[9:49] Zha Ewry: (I may actually brave 8 days with no laptop, we'll see)
[9:49] Zha Ewry: tries to ignore the shakign in her hands, as she says such things
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: admire's Zha's hardcore determiniation
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: from a distance, mind yu
[9:50] Zha Ewry: What I'd like to be able to demo, by mid januaray
[9:50] Zha Ewry: is cross crossing all three parts of the login and rez dance
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Login, Agent Domain, Region Domain
[9:50] Zha Ewry: I am willing to bet, something entertaining will happen with all of those
[9:51] Zha Ewry: If tings behave well, the second half of jan, I'll slot in the X.509 scheme, so you can actually have some reason to trust the Login Server which called your AD.. and so on
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: I don't need to trust it. I want it to trust us enough to give us access to Creative Commons or all-perm objects.
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Same difference
[9:53] Zha Ewry: you need the same things, for that too
[9:53] Patnad Babii: is this webservice, could possibly be used as central authentification point for other grids ?
[9:53] Zha Ewry: You could
[9:54] Zha Ewry: I'm not a fan of single points of control, and expect it to be a dance between grids, auth servcies, and agdent domains
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Not really the same at all. It's the difference between default accept and default reject beneath a pass rule.
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: whole concept of AD is to allow login once only
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Once only per domain .... the viewer may be authenticated to multiple domains.
[9:55] Patnad Babii: ok but in the case we want to carry our stuff from grid to grid, we would need to use one main account probably
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the clie4nt need only login once
[9:55] Zha Ewry: The goal Patnab, is to build out a set of services which can let us compose lots of choices
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Some people will want large collections of domains with trusted singel sign on
[9:56] Zha Ewry: some grids will insist on gettign seperate authentication
[9:56] Zha Ewry: if we compose the services cleanly, we permit both
[9:57] Patnad Babii: could be good to have a central authentification service witch the grid trust and where people in charge could be banning grieffer and stuff
[9:57] Zha Ewry: The security space, in SL has thee or four parts
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Compoent level auth
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: The client will have to log in as many times as there are disjoint ADs that are not inter-operating. There's no sign that LL will accept a login authenticated by a foreign AD. I bet they insist on being providers of authentication only, not consumers.
[9:57] Zha Ewry: end usser auth
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and policy
[9:57] Zha Ewry: all three ought to be orthogonal
[9:57] Zha Ewry: I'm not willing to predict Linden Policy
[9:58] Zha Ewry: has learned tryign to predict Linden Policy is about the same as the Kremlinologists of the 1960s
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: thing is, once you transfer control from one AD to the next, the client isn't trustable by the last AD
[9:58] Patnad Babii: it would be preferable to make this outside LL walls, to have a neutral organisation
[9:58] Zha Ewry: "Torley's watermellon had 8 seeds this week, it means Tess Linden is less respected."
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess was talkign about takign a snapshot of the pretransfer state of the client to get around that
[9:59] Dale Innis: must fly off to an RL meeting; carry on. :)
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Dale
[9:59] Zha Ewry: realistically, I *hope* linden will permit other ADs to authenticat
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Pragmatically, I know they won't without at least X.509 certs to secure that
[10:00] Patnad Babii: yes exact, at least at one of their grid
[10:01] Patnad Babii: whats the big difference between hypergrid and ogp i didnt catch it yet
[10:01] Zha Ewry: OGP, is a security less, asset less, TP based on one set of mechanisms
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Hypergrid
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: one expects authentication, and one doesn't
[10:02] Zha Ewry: is a securityless, asset rich mechanicms
[10:02] Zha Ewry: With much more static linkage
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They both do about the same htings when you look under the hood, except Hypergrid inlucdes little stubs to fetch your assets
[10:03] BlueWall Slade: you can navigate hypergrid regions from ogp-hypergrid regions too
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Oh, also, anyoen who hasn't should go look at Intel's propsed asset storeage story (cable beach, linked off of OpenSim as asset server)
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: When is OGP estimated to do that?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: OGP needs the auth stuff and at least a minimal policy bit to do that
[10:04] Zha Ewry: THO...
[10:04] Zha Ewry: you could augment OGP
[10:04] Zha Ewry: with *two* fields
[10:04] Zha Ewry: and blend them
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Make it so. ;-)
[10:04] Zha Ewry: (uri of asset store and uri of invenotry store)
[10:05] Zha Ewry: One thing we can do when we run out own AD
[10:05] Zha Ewry: is exactly that
[10:05] Zha Ewry: *our
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Details TBD, but I am planning on a set of opensim gridforge projects for this, if I can get my various legal people happy.
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Three chunks
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: still wants to see a mini AD done in Python too.
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Core C# components (Long queue, X.509, etc)
[10:08] Zha Ewry: AD and Auth services
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Belxjander has been workign on one, but hit a stubmling block with Google API
[10:08] Zha Ewry: and AD and auth clienkts
[10:08] Morgaine Dinova: Google? What's that got to do with an AD?
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I'm intentionally thinking of them as building blocks, not just parts of OpenSIm like i did with the OGP teleport work
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I want more composability
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Zha++
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: he was leveraging the Google App framework
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Bah. People will just end up removing the framework to lose the unnecessary dependency, like they did with ZCA
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: well, in this caswe, he hit roadblocks well before that.
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
[10:11] Zha Ewry: I am thinking that as simpler C# chunks this may be more digestable
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: google doesn't like the idea of an always on server of somekind running through their framework
[10:11] Zha Ewry: rolls her eyes
[10:11] Patnad Babii: so this AD would be a C# webservice with couples of method then^
[10:12] Zha Ewry: What I'm aiming for, is a simple C# servier
[10:12] Zha Ewry: with a tiny plugin for persitence
[10:12] Zha Ewry: (You'd like to stuff registration informatoi and presence persistyence someplace)
[10:13] Patnad Babii: thats can end up as a opensim module ?
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:13] Patnad Babii: or part of opensim project maybe too
[10:13] Patnad Babii: like ogp
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Several ways to package. One thing I want to be clear from both the code, and the project structure is that
[10:14] Zha Ewry: it should be deployable in lots of patterns
[10:14] Zha Ewry: OpenSim, to a painful degree recapitulates the structure of the Lidnen Grid
[10:14] Zha Ewry: (It doesn't have a lot of choice, in some areas, but in others it does)
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: surely if the framework includes database, then he doesn't need an always-on server --- just code it as one-shot REST actions. After all, REST services are not meant to maintain client session state.
[10:15] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: welll... the current design expects a "heartbeat" from te client every 30 seconds
[10:16] Zha Ewry: True, tho.. end of day, *something* has to hold state
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: The database would be enough for that ... "X is currently logged in" ;-)
[10:17] Zha Ewry: I keep pointing people at Duncan Crag to think about this
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Well, Linden, is trying to manage a slightly different problem, which is "Should I be waiting much longer for this client"
[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: if you're in IRC at some Japanese-compatible time, drop belxjander a call. I'm sure he'll be happy to learn of workarounds
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: of course, that's assuming I understood the problem int he first place
[10:18] Zha Ewry: There is a funny bit of very non webish behabvior
[10:18] Zha Ewry: in the client/sim relationship
[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Well ... the stream of object updates can be viewed as just one helluva long web page ;-)))))
[10:19] Zha Ewry: tis not quite that
[10:20] Zha Ewry: Web pages, web services, really don't ever assume any state acreates client side
[10:20] Zha Ewry: You can, and should code the client htat way too
[10:20] Zha Ewry: It almost does, and where it doesn't its really bad, the fact that teh client has now way of saying 'Hey, I don't have the mesh of that AVE, you give it to me, for example)
[10:21] Zha Ewry: *no way
[10:21] Zha Ewry: What's trickier, is when to accept a login request from a new client
[10:21] Zha Ewry: so you don't end up with two clients tryign to drive one ave
[10:21] Zha Ewry: That's much rarer as a web problem
[10:21] Zha Ewry: The heartbeat, is a way of trying to detect that
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Not pretty tho
[10:22] Zha Ewry: (Made worse by several sim side optimzations, btw)
[10:23] Squirrel Wood: when new client connects from same IP as old client... likely a crash/disconnect occured
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: I don't understand what you said about no state acreting client side at all.
[10:24] Zha Ewry: hmm
[10:24] Zha Ewry: The Sims, largely don't assume client side state
[10:24] Zha Ewry: byt they do assume some, which is really b ad
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Surely a webserve has no model of client side whatsoever
[10:24] Zha Ewry: most don't
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Some have small amounts based on cookies
[10:24] Squirrel Wood: timeouts
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Linden Sims, tho do make assumptions
[10:24] Zha Ewry: which totally bork them
[10:25] Squirrel Wood: no input for x, assume dead. mark as dead.
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: Cookies are server-side state, sneakily stored in clients :-)
[10:25] Zha Ewry: The inability to click on somsone's ave and say "Refresh this element" for me
[10:25] Squirrel Wood: recieve input after timeout, reply "U b Zombie"
[10:25] Zha Ewry: is a DEEP hint of that fubar
[10:26] Zha Ewry: That's clearly the long term goal, I would hope SW
[10:26] Zha Ewry: At the moment, the sims and clients are disturbingly coupled in odd corners
[10:26] Squirrel Wood: client then can reply "Ok. Zombie go sleep. disconnect me."
[10:26] Zha Ewry: would not want to take the current protocol to the IETF or similar
[10:27] Patnad Babii: so there is too much unnecessairy traffic you mean
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Not enough necessaryt traffic, in this case
[10:27] Squirrel Wood: or it goes "Zombie here. relog please. Here's the credentials. reactivate connection."
[10:27] Zha Ewry: The sim assumes that once it has pushed some state tot he client, the client never needs it again
[10:27] Zha Ewry: and doesn't offer up a way for the client to request it
[10:28] Patnad Babii: oh yes right, like plasma ball issue
[10:28] Zha Ewry: shudders at the antithises of restful
[10:28] Patnad Babii: or never ending grey rez textures
[10:28] Zha Ewry: nods at Patnad
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: You do mean "When it has pushed something to the client, and received an ACK-got-it back", right? Please say Yes ;-))))
[10:28] Zha Ewry: NO
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: Oh FSCK
[10:28] Zha Ewry: In theory, yes
[10:28] Zha Ewry: in practice no
[10:29] Zha Ewry: There isn't real retry logic one level up from the packet ack scheme as far as I can tell
[10:29] Squirrel Wood: heartbeat... token passing ?
[10:29] Zha Ewry: The hearbeat, is used by the sim, to decide when to abandon the client
[10:29] Zha Ewry: and do the "end of session" work
[10:30] Zha Ewry: observes another hint there
[10:30] Squirrel Wood: the heartbeat shouls also be used by the client to determine when the sim has gone dead.
[10:30] Zha Ewry: Its ort of is SW
[10:30] Zha Ewry: redmap, is loss of heartbeat
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I am pretty sure
[10:30] Zha Ewry: (I would have to ask a Linden to be certain)
[10:30] Squirrel Wood: open the map, click on *any* free space where there is no sim and you will get the red map
[10:31] Zha Ewry: that they over relied on the reliabale UDP layer they built
[10:31] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:31] Zha Ewry: right, but not the square you are in
[10:31] Squirrel Wood: so that code needs some refinement
[10:31] Zha Ewry: laughs
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Actually, I htink, that bit needs a bottom up cleanout
[10:31] Squirrel Wood: I think the entire client needs a total rewrite from scratch in a modularized form
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Mind you, the current code has some useful properties
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Oh, totally
[10:32] Zha Ewry: This is the concpetualizatoin that needs it too
[10:32] Squirrel Wood: with defined interfaces
[10:32] Squirrel Wood: standardized message interfaces and such
[10:32] Zha Ewry: yeps
[10:32] Zha Ewry: You have three seperate cleanups
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Code structure in two places (sim and client)
[10:32] Zha Ewry: protocol (to sort out the really bad assumptions)
[10:32] Squirrel Wood: drop a message on the "message bus" and whichever module is responsible for it grabs it
[10:33] Zha Ewry: and underlying assumptions
[10:33] Zha Ewry: This one is part of the later
[10:33] Zha Ewry: The assupmtion that once you aim some state at the client, it will be there
[10:33] Squirrel Wood: the client imagines a lot of things that should not be :p
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Well, you do know that at one time, there was no client/sim seperatoin?
[10:34] Zha Ewry: The earliest code, was single user, client and region all in one application
[10:35] Lim Catteneo: well that's your standard 3d game heritage
[10:35] Zha Ewry: yeps
[10:35] Zha Ewry: then take a greasy crayon and slash a big red blur between the two halves
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: I guess they tested the UDP transport in that integrated program, found no packet loss, and so stuck with it ;-)
[10:36] Zha Ewry: and put a very idiosyncratic transport between them
[10:36] Patnad Babii: is this going to be redone with tcp or something else ?
[10:36] Zha Ewry: and refine for five years
[10:36] Zha Ewry: The last I heard
[10:36] Zha Ewry: about 50% of traffic will shift to TCP
[10:36] Zha Ewry: The biggest, by bits should move fairly soon
[10:36] Zha Ewry: when texture fetch shifts
[10:36] Patnad Babii: is that part of their LLnet project or its longest term
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Much longer term
[10:37] Zha Ewry: LLNet is purely physical networking
[10:37] Patnad Babii: ok of course it mean lots of change
[10:37] Zha Ewry: no code changes
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: They can't remove all of UDP because they need to retain backwards compatible packet loss ;-)
[10:37] Zha Ewry: LLNet is a fiber optic ring linking the colocatoins centers
[10:37] Zha Ewry: so they can get out of the VPN business between them
[10:37] Lim Catteneo: the code is already in place to shift most things over to http
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Most of ot Lim
[10:38] Zha Ewry: tho, last I asked someone to peek
[10:38] Patnad Babii: yes well it is good news traffic should be less of an issue
[10:38] Zha Ewry: the http fetch was ifdefed out
[10:38] Zha Ewry: in the client
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Well, that depends, of course, you *can* build bad fiber networks
[10:38] Zha Ewry: But...
[10:39] Zha Ewry: the betting is that linden will have better luck with fiber hubs and routers not dropping stuff than they do with VPNs
[10:40] Lim Catteneo: most teleporting issues can be traced back to network problems with vpns
[10:40] Zha Ewry: I am generally skptical of large nework infrastructure projects
[10:40] Zha Ewry: until they actually are strress loaded
[10:40] Lim Catteneo: the hope is that once fiber is deployed, the grid would become much more stable
[10:41] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:41] Patnad Babii: maybe we can expect less crash during sim border crossing too
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Oh, I agree
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Done at all well, the fiber should help
[10:41] Zha Ewry: i do, howver recall
[10:41] Zha Ewry: similar statements made about the bitnet T3 project
[10:42] Zha Ewry: fondly recalls several thousand e-mail queeus lost for weeks in that mess
[10:42] Patnad Babii: uh oh didnt ended up well ?
[10:42] Morgaine Dinova: Has anyone heard what the hush hush refactoring of the client they're doing is? Are they intending to spring an "all change" on us? It'll cause havoc in the 3rd party viewer scene if it's not evolutionary.
[10:43] Lim Catteneo: i doubt LL has the resources to do that
[10:43] Zha Ewry: sighs
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: It's a minor restructuring then?
[10:43] Zha Ewry: I think that how they manage that effort will prove to be an interesting measure of thier support for community work
[10:44] Rex Cronon: hopefully it doesn't suddenly become incompatible withe the open sim:)
[10:44] Lim Catteneo: well I still see commits going into public svn, getting ready for 1.23
[10:44] Lim Catteneo: with some improvements

Cameo appearance by Lindens

[10:45] Imaze Rhiano: hello infinity
[10:45] Zha Ewry: ducks
[10:45] Lim Catteneo: i doubt that they have a seperate internal branch with a totally rewritten viewer ;)
[10:45] Zha Ewry: Inbioudbn
[10:45] Infinity Linden: hola
[10:45] Lim Catteneo: hey Infinity
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Infi
[10:45] Rex Cronon: hi
[10:46] Whump Linden: Hey, folks.
[10:46] Rex Cronon: hi
[10:46] Patnad Babii: hello Whump
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Whump!
[10:46] Infinity Linden: hola w!
[10:47] Rex Cronon: it must have rained at ll. suddenly lindens start to popup. just like mushrooms after a rain:)
[10:47] Zha Ewry: afk 1 minutes,. while I chase someone out of my office
[10:48] Lim Catteneo: had 1984 flashbacks when reading infinity's post :P you know the increased linden community participation ;) sort of like when there was a big announcement that chocolate rations are being increased to 25g. a week (and the previous ration was 43g. lol)
[10:48] Infinity Linden: though we're slightly less psychodelic
[10:48] Lim Catteneo: haha
[10:48] Whump Linden: rezzes more Victory Gin.
[10:48] Infinity Linden: doubleplus good
[10:49] Infinity Linden: "i am now authorized to inform you that the action i am now reporting could bring the war to within measurable distance of it's end."
[10:49] Lim Catteneo: :D
[10:50] Infinity Linden: yes. we are increasing Zero's office hours to once per week
[10:50] dogtow Hand: :o)
[10:51] Kerry Giha: hehe
[10:51] Infinity Linden: wonders if we can turn Zero Linden into a Big Brother like persona
[10:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zero's office hours finished some months back.
[10:51] Lim Catteneo: he already is ;) he's nowhere to be seen lately
[10:51] Zha Ewry: finishes signing, four times, in blue ink, and remebering the name of her county of residence
[10:52] Infinity Linden: where Whump and I speak in his name and invoke his gravitas
[10:52] Infinity Linden: airstrip one?
[10:53] Whump Linden: there is no region named airstrip one, that's searchable at least
[10:53] Whump Linden: someone should remedy that
[10:53] Whump Linden: we already have a 60 minute hate, that's when we play the Stars.
[10:53] Zha Ewry: imagines a sim with really odd physics
[10:53] Zha Ewry: and oddly crashing helicopters
[10:53] Infinity Linden: fwiw... the eurythmic's soundtrack to the 1985 movie is pretty damn'd awesum
[10:54] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:54] Zha Ewry: The last topic beofre it raine dlindens was client refactor
[10:54] Zha Ewry: with some people wondering what the plan was
[10:54] Infinity Linden: in terms of code refactor in general or to support new protocols?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: M said, there was goign to be one
[10:55] Lim Catteneo: code refactor & new and n00b friendly interface redesign
[10:55] Zha Ewry: People (myself included) are wondering how the OpenSource/Community omcponents of it will be managed
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Sure would be nice to set up physics as in the vicinity of a black hole. That should be possible in a flexible virtual world.
[10:55] Infinity Linden: wish i could help you on that one Zha... but that's definitely gonna be a Robla kinda thing
[10:56] Infinity Linden: goes to see what M announced to see what she can talk about without getting crucified
[10:56] Kerry Giha: Set up Physics as in the vicinity of a black hole? I thought that was what time dialation was for. hehe
[10:57] Morgaine Dinova: All this secrecy sucks, It's not as if we're talking about business issues, but about a client that's already been open sourced.
[10:57] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:57] Zha Ewry: One thing which would be very cool
[10:57] Zha Ewry: would be to have a couple of roadmap meetings
[10:57] Zha Ewry: with people who can speak sort of end to end
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Client, Sim, Central Services, Operations
[10:58] Zha Ewry: blinks
[10:58] Infinity Linden: agreed. me personally? i don't like things that appear like secrecy. but... its a decision that's made above my echelon, unfortunately
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Do they really call them Central Services.. /me flashes on Terry Gilliam's Brazil
[10:58] Lim Catteneo: M basically announced that in order to create user friendly viewer the lab has hired Big Speaceship to redesigne the viwer, and that in that process it will be refactored to make the code modular, etc.
[10:59] Popgun (drag: onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[10:59] Popgun (drag: onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[10:59] Patnad Babii: hi perf whatsup
[10:59] Patnad Babii: this guy never talk back eheh
[11:00] Whump Linden: okay, i'll have to catch up with the transcript
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Lim: well the problem there is that the client was already opened, so giving it to Big Spaceship to totally refactor amounts to forking ... and definitely not community-friendly.
[11:00] Whump Linden: see you all around
[11:00] Lim Catteneo: most of *** testers are bots
[11:00] Patnad Babii: right i know im kidding sry
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Whump
[11:00] Rex Cronon: bye whump
[11:00] Infinity Linden: eek. i have to follow whump to a meeting
[11:00] Infinity Linden: but
[11:01] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[11:01] Lim Catteneo: lol
[11:01] Rex Cronon: i have to go
[11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Rex
[11:01] Rex Cronon: tc
[11:01] Patnad Babii: have a great day rex
[11:01] Infinity Linden: i'm still looking to see what we've announced with respect to big spaceship, FLOSS viewer refactor
[11:01] Infinity Linden: i'll try to have something to say at Zero's office hours
[11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Tnx Infi
[11:01] Lim Catteneo: nothing regarding FLOSS was announced
[11:02] Infinity Linden: other than "my boss will kill me if i talk about this"
[11:02] Lim Catteneo: which is what we're asking about
[11:02] Zha Ewry: I'm going to hop to OpenSi office hours.
[11:02] Infinity Linden: kk..
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Zha, TP me there pls
[11:02] Zha Ewry: mutters about OpenID and Jhurliman
[11:02] Zha Ewry: Ahm
[11:02] Infinity Linden: fwiw... Robla is also another person to ask
[11:02] Zha Ewry: Wright plazza
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Ah
[11:02] Patnad Babii: its osgrid + wright plaza and now ?
[11:02] Infinity Linden: hell.
[11:02] Infinity Linden: OpenID
[11:03] Infinity Linden: it still hasn't died?
[11:03] Infinity Linden: okay... in the interests of being nice...
[11:03] Zha Ewry: sighs and poofs opensimward
[11:03] Lim Catteneo: yeah, opensim and its asset servers just got openid support
[11:03] Infinity Linden: i'll try to setup a meeting with peeps internally to get more information out to the community
[11:03] Lim Catteneo: you authorize to use assets via openid credeentials
[11:03] Infinity Linden: if someone here can setup a meeting with the opensim folks where i can discuss why we're not using OpenID
[11:03] Infinity Linden: or OAuth
[11:04] Patnad Babii: thanks for your offort infinity :)
[11:04] Patnad Babii: effort sorr
[11:04] Patnad Babii: sry
[11:04] Zha Ewry: I'll mentioned it to the folks there
[11:04] Infinity Linden: and how you can use OGP auth sideways to do OpenID without our support
[11:04] Lim Catteneo: well since ogp is going nowhere, OS community is doing their own stuff :P
[11:05] Infinity Linden: careful Lim... i'm likely to come to the office hours armed! (but seriously.. i understand your point.. i just ask your indulgence while we get through a transition period at the lab..)
[11:06] Infinity Linden: but seriously.. let's continue the discussion at 1PM
[11:06] Lim Catteneo: well 1 year of ogp, and only teleports working ;) sort of 25% of the time...
[11:06] Infinity Linden: i gotta run to a meeting
[11:06] Lim Catteneo: at this rate, we will have full spec in 2045
[11:07] Patnad Babii: woa 2045 thats far far away eheh
[11:07] Patnad Babii: maybe we reach web 25.4 at this time
[11:08] Lim Catteneo: anyway i got to go too
[11:08] Lim Catteneo: have fun ;)
[11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Parking my butt at Zero's place, and popping out to the shops

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16

pre-meeting discussion of plugins for Imprudence viewer

AW Groupies meeting

Cameo appearance by Lindens

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