AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28

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  • [2009/04/28 9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai
  • [2009/04/28 9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: yo
  • [2009/04/28 9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Feeling better today?
  • [2009/04/28 9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: marginally :-/
  • [2009/04/28 9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Any bit better is an improvement. Got a bad headache myself.
  • [2009/04/28 9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Geo, Tessa.
  • [2009/04/28 9:29] Morgaine Dinova: Making tea, biab.
  • [2009/04/28 9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry to hear that Morgaie. Did you ever try that stretching?
  • [2009/04/28 9:29] Geo Meek: Hello Hello one and all
  • [2009/04/28 9:31] Tessa Harrington: hey all
  • [2009/04/28 9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Rex
  • [2009/04/28 9:31] Rex Cronon: hi sai
  • [2009/04/28 9:31] Tessa Harrington: hey rex
  • [2009/04/28 9:32] Rex Cronon: hi tessa
  • [2009/04/28 9:32] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
  • [2009/04/28 9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's online but not necessarily here. SHe said her schedule was evening out soon but not sure what "soon" means
  • [2009/04/28 9:32] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah I started on that Sai, but was hurting bad at the time. Might try again tonight.
  • [2009/04/28 9:32] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex :-)
  • [2009/04/28 9:33] Rex Cronon: hi morgaine
  • [2009/04/28 9:33] Tessa Harrington: i feel like a statue
  • [2009/04/28 9:33] Geo Meek: feel better
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Rex Cronon: i don't see pigeons seeting on u:)
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Morgaine Dinova: If Sai doesn't appear, anyone got a topic for groupies?
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Tessa Harrington: well now i'm just beign rude with my back to everyone
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, we have a Zha :-)
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Morgaine Dinova waves
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Tessa Harrington: and shwoing my undies too to boot! :P
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Zha Ewry: Where?
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Zha Ewry: Who let Zha in?
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Rex Cronon: hi zha
  • [2009/04/28 9:34] Tessa Harrington: heheh there we go
  • [2009/04/28 9:35] Tessa Harrington: still showing my unides LOL
  • [2009/04/28 9:35] Rex Cronon: did u threaten to take hostages zhat? is that how u got out:)
  • [2009/04/28 9:35] Geo Meek: and nice ones too
  • [2009/04/28 9:36] Tessa Harrington: I guess its a good thing i put ON unidies today *smirks
  • [2009/04/28 9:36] Rex Cronon: u have to thank whoever made the animations:)
  • [2009/04/28 9:36] Morgaine Dinova: How goes Zha, things getting sorted out?
  • [2009/04/28 9:36] Tessa Harrington: yes yes Rex
  • [2009/04/28 9:37] Geo Meek: BamBam Sachertorte's handy work
  • [2009/04/28 9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: wow Spector just switched from REpublican to Democrat
  • [2009/04/28 9:37] Geo Meek: /i was kidding
  • [2009/04/28 9:37] Rex Cronon: those beanbags should have a warning: if u r a woman don't seat unleas u want to flash:)
  • [2009/04/28 9:38] Morgaine Dinova: New rules at IBM ... pin-striped pant suit? :-(
  • [2009/04/28 9:38] Rex Cronon: unless*
  • [2009/04/28 9:38] Geo Meek: hehe'
  • [2009/04/28 9:38] Zha Ewry: Yikes, thsi is impressive annoying late re-wear of item
  • [2009/04/28 9:38] Zha Ewry: Much better
  • [2009/04/28 9:39] Morgaine Dinova: So ... topic?
  • [2009/04/28 9:39] Geo Meek: things shoud have wear factor
  • [2009/04/28 9:39] Zha Ewry: So topic
  • [2009/04/28 9:40] Geo Meek: so thy wear out
  • [2009/04/28 9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Well I guess we could conjure one up
  • [2009/04/28 9:40] Rex Cronon: is good though that zha did't put a chair from stroker(i think that is the guy with the xxx beds):)
  • [2009/04/28 9:41] Zha Ewry: I'm prretty careful with what I rez on the work sims
  • [2009/04/28 9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: anything to report on the AD? You're probably aware that the continual deferral with nothing to show is looking odd.
  • [2009/04/28 9:41] Zha Ewry nods
  • [2009/04/28 9:42] Zha Ewry: Lets just say that coding is easy. Sorting out various other issues, is more challanaging.. including.. the fact that.. one ends up with various interestin compatibility issues
  • [2009/04/28 9:42] Rex Cronon: btw, zha could u move those tiny bean bags one or two meters closer to u. right now people might step on a kittens tail:)
  • [2009/04/28 9:43] Rex Cronon: :)
  • [2009/04/28 9:43] Morgaine Dinova: So'OK, blue kitties have 9^9 lives Rx
  • [2009/04/28 9:43] Zha Ewry: I really ought to mark Sai's URL LM
  • [2009/04/28 9:44] Zha Ewry: One current challange is that the OGP client is based on July/august code
  • [2009/04/28 9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: why don't you commit the AD and let the community sort out, or help with sorting out, the compatibility issues?
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Zha Ewry: Because some of those decisions get made above my pay grade.
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Grrrrrrr
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Zha Ewry: It will get released when the various things we need to sort out get sorted out
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Where did anyone suggest that we want an IBM product AD?
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Zha Ewry: The client, and doing it in a way which doesn't bork up Hypergrid, and so on is part of that
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Zha Ewry: Certainly not me
  • [2009/04/28 9:45] Dahlia Trimble: mightwant to remind those decision makers about the momentum Hypergrid has
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Zha Ewry does so on a regular basis
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: is there any possibility of releasing psuedocode or at least some thing more flowchartish/UMLish?
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Morgaine Dinova: OK, I think I'm getting the picture.
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: something between the OGP spec and working code
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Morgaine Dinova sighs
  • [2009/04/28 9:46] Morgaine Dinova: So, let's start from scratch, and make a community AD.
  • [2009/04/28 9:47] Zha Ewry: I'll point out, that it's about 1,000 LOC to do the basics
  • [2009/04/28 9:47] Morgaine Dinova: 1k LOC in C# is only 250 LOC in Python
  • [2009/04/28 9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: depending on which libraries are leveraged
  • [2009/04/28 9:47] Zha Ewry: Sure, in both cases
  • [2009/04/28 9:48] Zha Ewry: The client (big surprise) is an issue
  • [2009/04/28 9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Well I guess it wouldn't work to say "IBM peeps some grades higher than Zha, pls can we look at code so we can reimplement it in Python in a day..." So I guess it's a restart from docs.
  • [2009/04/28 9:49] Zha Ewry: So.. I asked people for some homework last week. did anyone do it?
  • [2009/04/28 9:49] Dahlia Trimble: I originally wrote my meshing code in python and the only thing that added lines was the curly brackets when I ported it to c#
  • [2009/04/28 9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: wow :-)
  • [2009/04/28 9:50] Dahlia Trimble: and the c# was 2 orders af magnitude faster
  • [2009/04/28 9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: its all about the libraries
  • [2009/04/28 9:50] Geo Meek: homework im still looking for my chack
  • [2009/04/28 9:50] Zha Ewry: No Chalk, nor whiteboard. Thsi is SL, whiteboards are nightmarish.
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: well I have that uber-prim whiteboard if you want to try it
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Zha Ewry: as I said
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Zha Ewry: ITS painful
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: 1 minute drawing lmit though
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Morgaine Dinova: As Infinity pointed out, lack of whiteboard is an embarassment. It's a real pity.
  • [2009/04/28 9:51] Zha Ewry: So.. Diva and CO. have been bashing more ont he notion of grid
  • [2009/04/28 9:52] Zha Ewry: I think 90% of the discussion is distrorted by reference to what Linden's built.. but.. I'm trying to understand what people see there
  • [2009/04/28 9:53] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it would be easier to sort out "grid" in our minds if LL's terminology in OGP wasn't so totally anti-interop. They don't even talk about worlds, but only about linking regions into "their world".
  • [2009/04/28 9:53] You decline Day 1 : Orange Island Education Days from A group member named Natty Foggarty.
  • [2009/04/28 9:54] Morgaine Dinova: So it's quite a terminology problem.
  • [2009/04/28 9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Or worse than terminology ... might be metaverse "worldview" problem.
  • [2009/04/28 9:54] Zha Ewry: Put aside OGP and Hypergrid.. and aks the question of "What the heck is it that we think it does"
  • [2009/04/28 9:55] Zha Ewry: I'm pretty sure 90% of what peopel say about 'grid" turns out to be either about deployment level stuff, that never hits a spec, ro.. about policy and trust models
  • [2009/04/28 9:55] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [2009/04/28 9:55] Zha Ewry: I'm also pretty sure, that most users (and therefore use cases) really don't include "grid" as a notion, in a form that coders, or deployers woudl recognize
  • [2009/04/28 9:56] Dahlia Trimble: what happened to Tao's AD? did he ever release anything?
  • [2009/04/28 9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: it was all leveraged off of ZCA
  • [2009/04/28 9:56] Morgaine Dinova: I agree on the latter --- people just want to link in their own "world" to other worlds ... "grid" is almost irrelevant. And "grid" is often an excuse for "pay me to join".
  • [2009/04/28 9:57] Rex Cronon: tao hasn't been here in quite a while
  • [2009/04/28 9:57] Zha Ewry: He chimes in on opensim-dev about once a week to chant "oauth"
  • [2009/04/28 9:57] Dahlia Trimble: yep he's on the openid/oauth bandwagon
  • [2009/04/28 9:58] Zha Ewry: So, am I right, that the pygop de-ZCA and ploning.. didn't include the AD work?
  • [2009/04/28 9:58] Tessa Harrington: is the subject today about terminaology? or can we maybe steer it to something a bit more engaging?
  • [2009/04/28 9:58] Morgaine Dinova: You mean client-side AD work?
  • [2009/04/28 9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: WEll, I don't think Tao released his working version to pyogp, only the skeleton which assumed ZCA all over the place
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Zha Ewry: Ahh
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Zha Ewry: So, no then
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Enus says that while the pyogp.interop stuff is still in there, it's out of date and may not even run anymore.
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Dahlia Trimble: what about the server stuff?
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Morgaine Dinova: But that he'll fix it.
  • [2009/04/28 9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: the skeleton was mostly just stubs for calls to some python framework or another
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Xugu Madison: (I just arrived)
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Xugu Madison: Zoo-goo
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Dahlia Trimble: Hi Xugo :)
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Zha Ewry: Yeah, the one time I looked at the sfuff that was in there, I got cross eyed in the nested frameworks, looking for actuall function
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: why the question? Think there might be something in the old pyogp.interop stuff to help you with server AD?
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Zha Ewry: Just curiosity
  • [2009/04/28 10:00] Morgaine Dinova nods
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: hey WHump
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Zha Ewry: Ah. Heck. I'll have to resod scorched grass again
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Whump Linden: Hello
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Whump Linden: is this a voice meeting?
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Well remember that we're making this up as we go along. So basically, any AD function you stick in, that's what the clients will interact with.,
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Rex Cronon: hi there
  • [2009/04/28 10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: text only WHump
  • [2009/04/28 10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Whump.
  • [2009/04/28 10:02] Zha Ewry: No, we're mostly on text, I think Tessa and Geo are side chatting
  • [2009/04/28 10:02] Morgaine Dinova: No voice, this meeting is transcripted.
  • [2009/04/28 10:02] Rex Cronon: for archiving reasons whump
  • [2009/04/28 10:02] Zha Ewry: Well, as usual, the client is part of the sticking point
  • [2009/04/28 10:03] Zha Ewry: Its easy enough to say (and easy enough to code) caps on the server side.. But.. actually getting the client to talk to them.. is code in the client tree.. and it goes downhill from there
  • [2009/04/28 10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: ENus' code isn't uptodate enough ?
  • [2009/04/28 10:04] Morgaine Dinova: We might end up having to pick one of the community viewers and add the stuff in there, since timely additions to the official LL viewer aren't possible.
  • [2009/04/28 10:04] Zha Ewry nods
  • [2009/04/28 10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Oh sure, we can do it in PyOGP, but I think Zha was hoping to have "real" clients use it for testing too.
  • [2009/04/28 10:04] Zha Ewry: Thats' a possibility.. Adding that in to the mix, complicates life, of course.
  • [2009/04/28 10:05] Zha Ewry: Well, there's no point in having an AD, if you dno't have a client people can use to support it
  • [2009/04/28 10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Yup
  • [2009/04/28 10:05] Dahlia Trimble: just use the pyov viewer - it can teleport anywhere already
  • [2009/04/28 10:06] Morgaine Dinova: pyomv?
  • [2009/04/28 10:06] Dahlia Trimble: www.openviewer.org
  • [2009/04/28 10:06] Dahlia Trimble: it does it by logging in
  • [2009/04/28 10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: so its not really doing the OGP thing...?
  • [2009/04/28 10:07] Whump Linden: Morgaine, I don't know what the answer would be, but I can ask Merov and Philip about that work in the Open Source branch.
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Morgaine Dinova: Wow, another python client ... they're breeding!
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Dahlia Trimble: I dont think it does any OGP at all
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Tessa Harrington: I thought the PYov viewer was made illegal by LL to use?
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: think its a python GUI on top of the libomv lib, morgaine
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Tessa Harrington: OPp
  • [2009/04/28 10:08] Tessa Harrington: python
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Dahlia Trimble: I dont know of any viewers that are illegal to use on the LL grid
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Tessa Harrington: and wasn't that made like a year ago?
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Tessa Harrington: wel lthe word i heard was that LL detected the coded tping back and froth
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Tessa Harrington: and made it clear they weren't happy with that
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Dahlia Trimble: I think you're thinking of another proxy that "someone" set up
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Tessa Harrington: but that's the word on the street
  • [2009/04/28 10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: I thought that was Gareth's hack
  • [2009/04/28 10:10] Tessa Harrington: ahh ok .. well what's the difference now or then?
  • [2009/04/28 10:10] Tessa Harrington: is it just a more acceptable thing to do now?
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Dahlia Trimble: the difference? one is an open source viewer and another is a third party proxy site that passes credentials without the permission of LL
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Tessa Harrington: ahhh
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Zha Ewry: Well, my impression is that Gareth was well into TOS bending
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Tessa Harrington: ok .. thanks dahlia
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the problem with Gareth's client was that it was transferring appearance, and potentially, assets from SL to his grid
  • [2009/04/28 10:11] Tessa Harrington: gotcha .. defintely not a good thing
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Hard to say. We appear to be in transition atm. After all, it seems to be "legal" for people to copy over full-perm stuff to open grids now, despite the ToS. So hard to say.
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Geo Meek: http://www.youtube.com/peeps?action_instant&u=Gld_01HPBaQ&t=7i6982zu
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Geo Meek: sorry
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Zha Ewry: Legal in what sense Morgaine?
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, I'm still not sure what the status there is.
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Not a law one Zha, haha, that's different.
  • [2009/04/28 10:12] Dahlia Trimble: legal in the sense that nobody is doing anything to stop it? at least visibly?
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Apparently.
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Morgaine Dinova: As far as we know.
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Mystical Demina: yet at least
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Zha Ewry: Right. I think anyone who does that, absent the original creator's license to do so, is wide open to a copyright infrigment lawsuit.
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Zha Ewry: Mind you, I am not a lawyer
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Zha Ewry: But.
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the only advice I give people is to get explicit permission from teh content creator, regardless of what the permissions flags say
  • [2009/04/28 10:13] Zha Ewry: The permissino flags are meaningless outside of the context of the SL service
  • [2009/04/28 10:14] Dahlia Trimble: I know some creators who don't care if their full perm stuff goes across, but I know others who are against it
  • [2009/04/28 10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: right
  • [2009/04/28 10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Tessa could tell us. Tessa, has anyone been banned for ToS violation yet after copying full-perm stuff to your SpotOn3D grid? I assume you'd know if it happened.
  • [2009/04/28 10:14] Rex Cronon: i think might be permabanning those that transfer their bears. i am not sure if that is true
  • [2009/04/28 10:14] Tessa Harrington: I am hoping LL and the Open Source community will agree to do the grid button and more .. such as create an data base that all grid owners are required to sign up for. like you do when you get a domain. and tap into that with the grid button and let the content provider decide what grid their stuff rezzes on
  • [2009/04/28 10:15] Mystical Demina: sorry, wasn't here to start, can you restate what you need from a viewer? you want to try to implement your AD model?
  • [2009/04/28 10:15] Rex Cronon: i am talking about the lindens
  • [2009/04/28 10:16] Zha Ewry: Its the usual fun, of getting a widely supported, merged, currrent, viewer, which matches an OGP style set of caps for various tasks.
  • [2009/04/28 10:17] Zha Ewry: Its not wildly different than.. noting that hypergrid is playing some intensely odd games to avoid hacking the client.
  • [2009/04/28 10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Well in the absence of specs, how about this Zha: you say what cap you're trying to stick in, me look at PyOGP and see how it could be fitted?
  • [2009/04/28 10:18] Morgaine Dinova: s/me/we/ .... probably with much help from Enus
  • [2009/04/28 10:18] Zha Ewry nods
  • [2009/04/28 10:18] Tessa Harrington: Zha ... any response to the idea of a centralized grid database that the content providers from any grid can utlize to put the power of where their items rez in their hands?
  • [2009/04/28 10:18] Zha Ewry: That's certainly a way to look at it.
  • [2009/04/28 10:19] Morgaine Dinova: "Centralized" doesn't fly.
  • [2009/04/28 10:19] Dahlia Trimble: there is some talk of a third party adding hypergrid to the hippo viewer
  • [2009/04/28 10:19] Zha Ewry: Effectively, that feelsl ike an "asset server" which has policies about which regions it would let fetch stuff
  • [2009/04/28 10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: you mean some open grid community doing it?
  • [2009/04/28 10:20] Dahlia Trimble: the hippo developers
  • [2009/04/28 10:20] Zha Ewry: (which implies a PKI style handshake to actually believe the end region is who it claims to be)
  • [2009/04/28 10:20] Tessa Harrington: well nto really. If the OpenSim core hard coded the standards into its hypergrid protocol then this coudl easily be done
  • [2009/04/28 10:21] Zha Ewry: Not with any belief it would not be hacked in a day
  • [2009/04/28 10:21] Tessa Harrington: the items don't have to be centrally stored to deny rez
  • [2009/04/28 10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: yep, that sounds right --- asset servers are the right place where perms on assets belong, as part of asset metadata, not the AD.
  • [2009/04/28 10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: This is where I get lost. I can code teh barebones basics of OGP login in the http LSL functions, but tracking which avatar is authorized to be in which grid, etc, is another kettle of fish
  • [2009/04/28 10:21] Zha Ewry: Code in the OpenSim core.. doesn't afford you any security
  • [2009/04/28 10:22] Geo Meek: please have my sit
  • [2009/04/28 10:22] Zha Ewry: Since there is now way to know that a region is running code that has the desired behavior..
  • [2009/04/28 10:22] Morgaine Dinova: But OGP doesn't have a distributed Asset or Object Domain yet. I tried to get that raised as an agenda item with Zero at last OH, because it was raised in MMOX by Mystical and others. But Zero didn't want to talk about the topic.
  • [2009/04/28 10:23] Zha Ewry: Mind you, at some level, I'd reluctanly argue that the whole content protection story is going to wind up based in making sure you know who to sue, if content is ripped.
  • [2009/04/28 10:24] Morgaine Dinova: That's an american lifestyle preference, I assure you. The rest of the world has no interest in spending their life suing people.
  • [2009/04/28 10:24] Mystical Demina: rest of he word don'
  • [2009/04/28 10:24] Mystical Demina: t use corts they se strong men
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Rex Cronon: wouldn't be interesting if there was a virtual courhouse with real judges and lawyers? it might be a lot easier to sue others:)
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Morgaine Dinova: God no.
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Dahlia Trimble: I certainly don't prefer to sue people :(
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Tessa Harrington: well, content protection isn't about 100% success, No one expects that who is reasonable
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Rex Cronon: some people seem to really enjoy it
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Dahlia Trimble: but I'm glad the option exists
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Whump Linden: wow, we American's have a reputation...
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Morgaine Dinova: We're techs, let's find a tech solution that reduces the need for lawyers to almost never.
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Tessa Harrington: its about meeting real world standards of sucdess, int he 80 - 90 %
  • [2009/04/28 10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: enus is double checking to make sure OGP login is still working with the latest version of pyogp
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Whump: yeah, sadly. :-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Zha Ewry: At some rainoal level, the goal is to make it *hard* to casually steal, likely that you will get caught.. and thus deterring the bulk of people
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Tessa Harrington: meanign makng it so that the average user wont' or can't abuse the protection
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Zha Ewry: and.. leaving the suing to the cases where it gets out of hand
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Zha Ewry: (which, roughlu is what I think Tessa just implied)
  • [2009/04/28 10:26] Tessa Harrington: yes *smiels
  • [2009/04/28 10:27] Tessa Harrington: thanks Zha
  • [2009/04/28 10:27] Dahlia Trimble: no offense to any lawyers, but they usually go after the deep pockets anyway ;)
  • [2009/04/28 10:27] Tessa Harrington: and we'll be setting u a Mediation Panel that is over seen by a real world judge that is recongized in the states and most of europe to hear disuptes and arbitrate
  • [2009/04/28 10:28] Tessa Harrington: for a very affordable cost of 10-300 usd, depending upon the complexity of the argement and negotiations
  • [2009/04/28 10:28] Zha Ewry refers Tessa and other interested parties to some of Adam Frisby's comments about how to mark content
  • [2009/04/28 10:28] Morgaine Dinova: We shouldn't be using the word "steal" when we mean "copyright violation". But anyway, Second Inventory seems to allow you to "casually steal" to use your words, yet it's OK.
  • [2009/04/28 10:28] Tessa Harrington: do you ahve a web url?
  • [2009/04/28 10:29] Whump Linden: I need to bug out to another meeting. See you all later. Saij, thanks for the reminder.
  • [2009/04/28 10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Whump :-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:29] Mystical Demina: i have some time, i be willing to lookin into modifications for LibOMV
  • [2009/04/28 10:29] Rex Cronon: tc whump
  • [2009/04/28 10:30] Rex Cronon: zha, whaere can i see adam frisby's comments?
  • [2009/04/28 10:30] Zha Ewry: looking
  • [2009/04/28 10:30] Tessa Harrington: yes please
  • [2009/04/28 10:30] Zha Ewry: Boy blogs a lot
  • [2009/04/28 10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Mystical: I'll grab it too and see if I can understand it.
  • [2009/04/28 10:31] Mystical Demina: i have a client that is using XNA workingso been into allthe ibovm stuff
  • [2009/04/28 10:31] Zha Ewry: http://www.adamfrisby.com/blog/2008/07/creating-effective-fingerprints-from-primitive-groups/
  • [2009/04/28 10:31] Zha Ewry: That post
  • [2009/04/28 10:31] Rex Cronon: btw tessa, u might need more than one judge, as laws tend to differ from country to country
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Zha Ewry: (tho the whole blog is a good read, minding that you have to keep track of which ideas get followed up on and which don't)
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Tessa Harrington: the idea behind a centralized grid database is key, cause while it can be hacked, just the provision of having to abide by that to remain listed as a grid in good standing would be a step in the right direction. and further more can ensure that a successful grid doesn't get their grid name copied and fool grid hopping newbies into thinking they are in the original and also as a means to respect existing IP and trademark assets that exist already ont eh big web
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Zha Ewry: http://www.adamfrisby.com/blog/2008/07/practical-alternatives-to-copy-protection/
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Zha Ewry: is also related in obvious ways
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Dahlia Trimble: yep he was planning on using my meshing code to create signatures of prim objects
  • [2009/04/28 10:32] Tessa Harrington: Rex .. this judge is recognized by more than the US
  • [2009/04/28 10:33] Tessa Harrington: and he has other judges under him
  • [2009/04/28 10:33] Tessa Harrington: iuts actualy a partnership with a pretty well established online arbitration
  • [2009/04/28 10:36] Morgaine Dinova: The whole thing is ill-founded. RL already has all the machinery for that, based on national laws. VWs have no framework for law of any kind, and don't represent one jurisdiction anyway but countless, so any arbitration in-world makes no sense. So, the whole thing makes no sense.
  • [2009/04/28 10:36] Zha Ewry: I'm pretty sure you'll find you need a distributed security scheme when any regions want to talk to a central service..and there are a host of reasons why peopel in the web cringe when the word "central services"
  • [2009/04/28 10:36] Zha Ewry: *words
  • [2009/04/28 10:36] Zha Ewry: come up
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Zha Ewry: well, if its tied to RL law an arbitration, that's not unreasonable Morgaine
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Dahlia Trimble: rl time... have a nice day all :)
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Tessa Harrington: well ok pick a different word LOL
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Zha Ewry: The Jurisdiction issue is nightmrish, tho.
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: In-world it would have no standing, only outside in RL.
  • [2009/04/28 10:37] Rex Cronon: tc dahlia
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: Well.. The judges won't be in world, one assumes, from a legal perspective
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: I'm mostly staring at such proposals and wondering
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Heh
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: how you assign jurisdiction when an asset sold by someone in one country
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: to aomeone in another
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: on a servcie hosted in a third
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Zha Ewry: ...
  • [2009/04/28 10:38] Tessa Harrington ignores morgaines pot stirring
  • [2009/04/28 10:39] Tessa Harrington: well the TOS clearly defines that Zha
  • [2009/04/28 10:39] Zha Ewry: "So, you see, Mr. Secretary General, the case lands on your desk"
  • [2009/04/28 10:39] Morgaine Dinova: And given how it's fraught with questions even in just one world, how it all extrapolates to thousands or millions of world .... it's hilarious to think there's an answer.
  • [2009/04/28 10:39] Zha Ewry thinks about the TOS lawsuits, and once again is very glad she avoided law school.
  • [2009/04/28 10:40] Tessa Harrington: its the country the comapny exists in that mandates performs laws, but that doesn't mean the nuiances of that particular country is ignored, that's why they call it arbitration
  • [2009/04/28 10:40] Zha Ewry: Well, end of day, its a simply copyright lawsuit. :-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:40] Tessa Harrington: well my business partner is an IP and copyright attorney :P helps
  • [2009/04/28 10:40] Zha Ewry has yet to see a simple copyright lawsuit, mind you
  • [2009/04/28 10:40] Zha Ewry: But.. its a fine theory.
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Zha Ewry: I think the bigger issue, is going to be before you get near the abritrator
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Tessa Harrington: he's trying to ensure there is a financially reasonable means for content providers to be heard and have their disputes settled
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Zha Ewry: which is figuring out who to sue
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Tessa Harrington: tht's the job of the mediation panels
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Morgaine Dinova: Tessa: The ToS clearly says that using tools like Second Inventory to copy full-perm items is illegal, yet you're doing it. So it's not as clear as you make out. --- https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2006/11/15/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation
  • [2009/04/28 10:41] Tessa Harrington: they act as a type of jury and discovery group
  • [2009/04/28 10:42] Mystical Demina: i believe all this stuff law suff is important but i think there are 1000s of companies that can't use virtual worlds to dsiaply their products because of cross grid TP. I think most of these companies will allow anonymous access and will probably actally give away virtual versions of their products so won't care about copying and will want to treat all of this like they do their public websites
  • [2009/04/28 10:42] Morgaine Dinova: And Philip Linden made it clear as day that it's wrong too, yet you're doing it. So, it's still up for discussion where this stands.
  • [2009/04/28 10:42] Tessa Harrington ignores Morgaines slanderous pot stirring
  • [2009/04/28 10:43] Zha Ewry: The technical questions lurking, would be how much support you could give such a process, so that it was plausible to figure out here bad thinsg where being done.
  • [2009/04/28 10:43] Rex Cronon: who here is using second inventory?
  • [2009/04/28 10:44] Rex Cronon: does anybody know if the files it generates can be manually edite?
  • [2009/04/28 10:44] Rex Cronon: edited*
  • [2009/04/28 10:44] Rex Cronon: or are those files encrypted?
  • [2009/04/28 10:44] Zha Ewry: and. lets try to stick to the more technical arguments. I'm not really interested in too much of the who is doing what arguments
  • [2009/04/28 10:44] Morgaine Dinova: The SpotOn3D grid is recommending use of Second Inventory in their Introduction document -- http://spoton3d.com/intro.html --- while that doesn't mean that their users are doing so, it does strongly suggest that they might be.
  • [2009/04/28 10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Their link to Second Inventory is one page down in that Intro document.
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Zha Ewry: Morgaine.. can we put tha to one side, and if you want to pursue it, do it in a more appropriate venue?
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Tessa Harrington: thank you Zha
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Rex Cronon: because if the files r encrypted, ll might put "persuade" the maker of SI so that when prims r rezzed on a grid, their author is set to the original one
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Morgaine Dinova: I don't want to puruse it. I am merely defending myself from Tessa's statement that I was saying something inaccurate.
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Since this is on the record, I'm providing the links to back up what I said.
  • [2009/04/28 10:46] Zha Ewry: (And, full permissions != permissino to take off grid, without creators permission, but. beyond that, lets table it on both sides)
  • [2009/04/28 10:47] Rex Cronon: ll might "persuade"*
  • [2009/04/28 10:48] Morgaine Dinova: With the help of a community AD, will it be easier to decouple asset serving along John Hurliman's Cable Beach lines?
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Rex Cronon: i believe that open grid can allow objects made by second inventory to have anybody listed as creator
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Xugu Madison: My turn to vanish, good luck figuring out answers to problems I'm glad I don't have to decide about :)
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Geo Meek: i think im at the wrong meeting
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Rex Cronon: tc xugu
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, see you Xugu
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Zha Ewry: I think an AD helps a bit
  • [2009/04/28 10:49] Zha Ewry: It gives you some trust leverage on the problem
  • [2009/04/28 10:50] Geo Meek: how who trusts who?
  • [2009/04/28 10:50] Zha Ewry: I'm not much keen on the "Lets delagate the whole trust problem to individual users interactin with every potential service" becuae I think it becomes a scale out nightmare
  • [2009/04/28 10:51] Zha Ewry: Roughly, you pick an Agent Service and have it host your virtual worlds presence
  • [2009/04/28 10:51] Morgaine Dinova: Not really, because any one client is only in communication with a small number of worlds at any one time,
  • [2009/04/28 10:51] Zha Ewry: Right, but since the possibel set is the set of all regions and services, it doesn't help much
  • [2009/04/28 10:51] Tessa Harrington: nods. that's one of the things the hypergrid coders are thinking about now ZHA and i agree. that's a step in the wrong direction
  • [2009/04/28 10:52] Tessa Harrington: its one of their choices they are looking at
  • [2009/04/28 10:53] Zha Ewry: If I can show up at an arbitrary service with a key, the question of how that key ends up being validated is the heart of the trust problem, I think.
  • [2009/04/28 10:53] Morgaine Dinova: Nah, not logical. It's like saying that browsers are unscalable, because the set of websites is infinite. Doesn't hold up.
  • [2009/04/28 10:53] Tessa Harrington: nods
  • [2009/04/28 10:53] Tessa Harrington: nods in agreement to Zha
  • [2009/04/28 10:53] Zha Ewry: No, because, 99% of web sights don't require a trut token, and don't need to revoke them
  • [2009/04/28 10:54] Zha Ewry: If you needed a key for every url you visited
  • [2009/04/28 10:54] Morgaine Dinova: And nor will 99% of VWs, otherwise this isn't going to scale to web-size dimensions.
  • [2009/04/28 10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Even Infinity agreed with that.
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Meadhbh Oh: um
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Morgaine Dinova waves to Infi
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Meadhbh Oh: let's be careful with repeating what i agreed to
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Meadhbh Oh: i agreed that PKI was not simple
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Meadhbh Oh: not that it wasn't useful
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Morgaine Dinova: It's on MMOX, I'll paste URL if required :-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:55] Meadhbh Oh: yes. i am familiar with the post
  • [2009/04/28 10:56] Meadhbh Oh: but please do not represent me or linden as saying that we don't believe security is important
  • [2009/04/28 10:56] Zha Ewry: Pull up a hard cold concrete bench and stay for a while.
  • [2009/04/28 10:56] Zha Ewry: Or a cozy bean bag ;-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: indeed, and no such thing was said. :-)
  • [2009/04/28 10:56] Meadhbh Oh: nor that PKI doesn't have an important part to play in the future of any virtual world
  • [2009/04/28 10:57] Meadhbh Oh: well.. for what it's worth... the PKI profile for how we (linden) are goign to use certs in a multi-domain world is on my list of things to type up soon
  • [2009/04/28 10:58] Meadhbh Oh: and also... it'll probably get sent out to the IETF for publication as an informational RFC
  • [2009/04/28 10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Concrete question: if certain assets are stored on a particular asset services that serves multiple worlds, how do the AD's trust agreements relate to how the asset service delivers or doesn't deliver assets to the viewers of the users of the worlds in question?
  • [2009/04/28 10:59] Morgaine Dinova: That's a mouthfull, but try parsing it, it's roughly accurate.
  • [2009/04/28 10:59] Meadhbh Oh: well.. i would imagine that they would be covered by individual agreements
  • [2009/04/28 11:00] Meadhbh Oh: or agreements to federations of content providers / consumers
  • [2009/04/28 11:00] Rex Cronon: i think the ad delivers only to the sim, and the sim than sends to the viewers that are on it
  • [2009/04/28 11:00] Meadhbh Oh: remember... the protocol specifies mechanism, not policy
  • [2009/04/28 11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Aye
  • [2009/04/28 11:00] Meadhbh Oh: so if you have a domain that's serving assets to a federation of HG systems or to a constellation of OGP region domains
  • [2009/04/28 11:01] Meadhbh Oh: you _can_ have a different policy for each
  • [2009/04/28 11:01] Rex Cronon: u just need a policy for each grid. not for every sim on every grid
  • [2009/04/28 11:01] Zha Ewry strongly suspects, the 99% case of policy question is giogn to be "Can I rez asser (URI) on Region (URI) for user (URI)"
  • [2009/04/28 11:01] Meadhbh Oh: i'm guessing that different communities will have different requirements / focus
  • [2009/04/28 11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: not in general, although in LL's implementation what you say is true. In general though, a public asset service might well be expected to send assets to viewers directly ... it's not only faster, but it's vastly more scalable for the region in question.
  • [2009/04/28 11:02] Meadhbh Oh: also.. in the future we're looking at a model where the region host acts to establish a session between the asset server and the viewer
  • [2009/04/28 11:02] Tessa Harrington: yes. so why not have the permissions orgiinate form teh content provider instead of a grid. the grid can house them, but still not have the rifght to rez if a secure key system where in lace that respected that ideal
  • [2009/04/28 11:02] Meadhbh Oh: and that the viewer talks directly to the asset server
  • [2009/04/28 11:03] Meadhbh Oh: that's clearly not what we have now
  • [2009/04/28 11:03] Rex Cronon: is not really faster, especially if u have like a few millions users connected to same ad:)
  • [2009/04/28 11:03] Meadhbh Oh: and there's going to be intermediary steps where the region host will be betwee the two
  • [2009/04/28 11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: I think you're right re the different reqs/ focus ... however, given that trust agreements are such a blunt and non-varying instrument, I don't see them being useful to that process. The granularity is wrong.
  • [2009/04/28 11:03] Zha Ewry: I'd argue that the "where the endpoint goes" question is a deployment not protocol issue
  • [2009/04/28 11:04] Meadhbh Oh: i think HG / Cable Beach is heading in the direction of "the content provider provides the content"
  • [2009/04/28 11:04] Meadhbh Oh: (i think)
  • [2009/04/28 11:04] Meadhbh Oh: but ultimately we're talking about the same thing
  • [2009/04/28 11:04] Meadhbh Oh: perhaps in the future, the asset server will conceptually simply be a giant asset cache
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Rex Cronon: ok. time for me to go to andrew's office hour
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Meadhbh Oh: cause i gotta tell you... if you think texture loading is slow now... just wait 'til you put it all on your home machine behind a 320kbps uplink
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Zha Ewry: Well, note, 90% of its a URI
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Rex Cronon: tc everbody
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Tessa Harrington: ty everyone. great meeting
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Zha Ewry: So.. URIs can resolve to lots of things
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Zha Ewry: including multiple sources
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Tessa Harrington: good to hear we're talking about focusing on the content providers
  • [2009/04/28 11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, although they decouple storage of content from policy/provision of content. (Not that there is much policy, hehe :P)
  • [2009/04/28 11:06] Tessa Harrington waves to all
  • [2009/04/28 11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Tessa
  • [2009/04/28 11:06] Meadhbh Oh: sure there's policy.. you know... how do i authenticate accessors... how do i represent permissions... that kinda stuff. i think we're all gonna be asking ourselves these questions
  • [2009/04/28 11:06] Meadhbh Oh: HG and OGP
  • [2009/04/28 11:07] Meadhbh Oh: and to try to make a complicated answer simple...
  • [2009/04/28 11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: conversely: if you think it's fast now, just wait until a "home" world provider has all the assets on S3 :-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:07] Meadhbh Oh: the PKI is there to provide region and agent domains with the ability to identify themselves so protocol endpoints can make access control policy decisions
  • [2009/04/28 11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. maps got accelerated hugely in Philip's viewer through using S3
  • [2009/04/28 11:07] Zha Ewry: Sure, as long as the S3.. doesn't give away stuff it shouldn't.
  • [2009/04/28 11:08] Meadhbh Oh: mmm... did merov publish the "how we're using S3" paper?
  • [2009/04/28 11:08] Meadhbh Oh: it's actually kind of interesting
  • [2009/04/28 11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I'd love to read that.
  • [2009/04/28 11:08] Meadhbh Oh: ultimately, the answer isn't "just throw everything on S3"
  • [2009/04/28 11:08] Meadhbh Oh: the same way that the answer to virtual worlds in a browser isn't "just throw the o3d stuff at it"
  • [2009/04/28 11:09] Zha Ewry: Oddly the answet to almost nothing is "Just do X"
  • [2009/04/28 11:10] Zha Ewry: It almost always becomes "Well, do X, fo 75% of it, Y for 10%, z for 9% and..the last 1% is going to be awful no matter what we do"
  • [2009/04/28 11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Well here's the problem: say the bits are on S3, and say two worlds are involved, A and B. The
  • [2009/04/28 11:10] Morgaine Dinova: 2nd half of line coming :P
  • [2009/04/28 11:12] Morgaine Dinova: There is probably just one trust agreement between them, or at most two if they differ at each end. That's just two constants by which we can parametrize the decision about whether that content can enter the two worlds of not. I'm wondering if that is adequate granularity, given that the asset service may hold items from N worlds, not just 2.
  • [2009/04/28 11:14] Morgaine Dinova: The agreement would be sufficient (maybe) if there were only assets from two worlds stored, fair enough. But once you extrapolate it to large numbers of worlds, then you either have a zillion agreements and the "trust" becomes meaningless, or else you end up with default agreements ... and the PKI offers no protection.
  • [2009/04/28 11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Which is why I wonder what the tangible benefits of this approach are.
  • [2009/04/28 11:15] Meadhbh Oh: well... S3 as a big "key value pair in the sky" would have the problems of a large unauthenticated remote store
  • [2009/04/28 11:15] Morgaine Dinova: I under one one tangible benefit, the "gives us somebody to sue" one, but that's not the tech level that interests me.
  • [2009/04/28 11:15] Meadhbh Oh: so all the access control bits would have to be added before posting them
  • [2009/04/28 11:16] Morgaine Dinova: s/under/understand/
  • [2009/04/28 11:16] Meadhbh Oh: like encrypting the assets and then managing access control with key management
  • [2009/04/28 11:16] Meadhbh Oh: which is a system that's got fail written all over it
  • [2009/04/28 11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: that's conceptually interesting, but it would only work if perms metadata operated under some general design principle, and not world-specific.
  • [2009/04/28 11:17] Meadhbh Oh: okay. sure. when you have your generic rights expression language let me know
  • [2009/04/28 11:17] Meadhbh Oh: we have deliverables for this year
  • [2009/04/28 11:17] Morgaine Dinova: precisely ... we're not there. :-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:19] Morgaine Dinova: So since we don't have any such generic expression of rights in metadata, we're going to end up with world-specific perms, and that means that single trust agreements are only going to be able to handle their own perms types in the metadata, so this approach doesn't scale to N worlds' objects in S3.
  • [2009/04/28 11:19] Morgaine Dinova: It's a quandry.
  • [2009/04/28 11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Going to make interop very hard.
  • [2009/04/28 11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Except for unencumbered assets of course. They're easy.
  • [2009/04/28 11:20] Zha Ewry: Yep, just boring
  • [2009/04/28 11:21] Zha Ewry: OK, we're at the usual wind down time
  • [2009/04/28 11:22] Morgaine Dinova: A few days ago, John Hurliman was still adding stuff to the Cable Beach page on Opensim wiki. Keep an eye out on that, it might become important.
  • [2009/04/28 11:22] Morgaine Dinova: Some odd things there which had me puzzled too, but also some interesting concepts.
  • [2009/04/28 11:24] Meadhbh Oh: yeah. i've been looking at wedging OAuth into OGP lately... i think John and I are both intersted in that
  • [2009/04/28 11:24] Morgaine Dinova: Cool
  • [2009/04/28 11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: any idea if Philip followed up on his words about (heavily paraphrased) "We're working on an Interop bit, as it's not right to transfer stuff now"? Ie. is that work happening? It's quite a source of trouble, gets Tessa very upset any time the ToS is mentioned.
  • [2009/04/28 11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Lead times are so long ...
  • [2009/04/28 11:27] Meadhbh Oh: yes. i have some ideas. no. i can't talk about it
  • [2009/04/28 11:28] Meadhbh Oh: tessa should not be saying things like "full permissions means you can take things off the grid"
  • [2009/04/28 11:28] Zha Ewry: Well, NOBODY should be.
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Meadhbh Oh: i think several people have counseled her that, in fact, while that is one interpretation of the meaning of the phrase "full permissions" it is not the one endorsed by LL
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Zha Ewry: "Full perms" as short hand for C/M/T is just that
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Meadhbh Oh: but to say more would make me sound like a lawyer
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Meadhbh Oh: and
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Zha Ewry: It has zero value outisde of that.
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Meadhbh Oh: IANAL
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Zha Ewry laughs
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Zha Ewry: We all declined to be lawyers
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Zha Ewry: Lucky us.
  • [2009/04/28 11:29] Mystical Demina: i have free skins at my island but i never says they can be used on every grid any where
  • [2009/04/28 11:30] Morgaine Dinova: She's not saying exactly that (or at least I haven't heard it, and I'm trying to be accurate). But Lindens own Xstreet and are profitting from sales of Second Inventory, and Second Inventory copies full-perm items happily. So there is an issue, needless to say. I just want clarity, or even better, Philip's "Interop Bit", :-))))
  • [2009/04/28 11:30] Meadhbh Oh: yup. i can understand where she's coming from, but can't sanction her behavior... that is... she seems to be telling people that we (linden) agree that "full perms" means "public domain"
  • [2009/04/28 11:30] Meadhbh Oh: which is totally not true
  • [2009/04/28 11:30] Meadhbh Oh: and mystical... this is one of the reasons why a good rights expression language would be useful
  • [2009/04/28 11:31] Zha Ewry: tho, IANAL... I'd have a hard time finding anything in the TOS which woudl let Linden say that.
  • [2009/04/28 11:31] Meadhbh Oh: you COULD say things like... "these skins usable no the LL grid and this list of grids and not on the pirate bay grids and ... "
  • [2009/04/28 11:31] Zha Ewry nods
  • [2009/04/28 11:31] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine... that's a bit of a leap
  • [2009/04/28 11:32] Mystical Demina: but not sure as a grid operator i would want that, means if i mess up i am legally at risk
  • [2009/04/28 11:32] Meadhbh Oh: you're saying that because a third party makes tools in an ecosystem that we profit from, we're liable for damages?
  • [2009/04/28 11:32] Meadhbh Oh: hell... even in the US with it's weird tort, i don't think that would fly
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Meadhbh Oh: and since i mentioned the word "tort" i should again say... i am not a lawyer
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Zha Ewry: I think the claim is it lowers your safe harbor.
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Meadhbh Oh: with respect to DMCA?
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Zha Ewry: yeah.
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: you're totally right, the ToS and its clarification by Lindens says the exact opposite, ie. that it's a ToS violation. It seems to be LL's profitting from sales on Second Inventory on Xstreet that is causing the interpretations that "It's OK". I can't see any other source for it.
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Zha Ewry: Not that I am a lawyer
  • [2009/04/28 11:33] Meadhbh Oh: DMCA provides the safe harbor. we respond to take down requests the same as other people
  • [2009/04/28 11:34] Meadhbh Oh: we sell second inventory on xStreet?
  • [2009/04/28 11:34] Zha Ewry: You do.
  • [2009/04/28 11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Zha Ewry: https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=612924
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Zha Ewry: Featured Item ;-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Morgaine Dinova: If you're confused now, join the club :-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Meadhbh Oh: i'll be damn'd
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Mystical Demina: i would say any client that allows copying stuff for the intent of moving off of SL grid shouild be denied acces and the user of it should be pursued
  • [2009/04/28 11:35] Meadhbh Oh: ah. i think i see the confusion
  • [2009/04/28 11:36] Meadhbh Oh: xstreetsl is a venue
  • [2009/04/28 11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Mystical: that can't work, since any client can be used to make copies of non-owned assets.
  • [2009/04/28 11:36] Meadhbh Oh: <IANAL> i don't think WE sell second inventory, but it is sold in our venue </IANAL>
  • [2009/04/28 11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: you take a commission.
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Mystical Demina: yes, but it is not hard to find use of it happening, i would think there are specific database pattersn tha can be found
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Zha Ewry goes off to patent the viewer which can determien the intent of the user.
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Meadhbh Oh: again. we do not sell second inventory
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaha Zha :P
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Mystical Demina: you don't have to sell it, just profit from the sale of it
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Meadhbh Oh: in what jurisdiction?
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Meadhbh Oh: i think you may find there's considerable case law that applies to that last statement, mystical
  • [2009/04/28 11:37] Morgaine Dinova: In this current Jurisdiction of Handwaving ... which is all we have in VWs ;-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:38] Zha Ewry: "Please put this squi d based senor laden headband on, before rezzing an object, so I can read your EEG and determine your intent"
  • [2009/04/28 11:38] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine. no.
  • [2009/04/28 11:38] Meadhbh Oh: linden is a US company. our servers are in the US. we're bound by US law
  • [2009/04/28 11:39] Meadhbh Oh: (again.. I am not a lawyer... but i'm pretty sure the feds would take a dim view of us if we they thought we were violating IP law)
  • [2009/04/28 11:39] Zha Ewry: /and having devolved totally from tech to torts..
  • [2009/04/28 11:39] Zha Ewry: I'm going to go debug some code
  • [2009/04/28 11:39] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine. please do not tell people that we believe we are not subject to appropriate legal jurisdiction
  • [2009/04/28 11:40] Mystical Demina: so what i don't understand, Second Inventory let's me copy things that i am not the creator of off of SL?
  • [2009/04/28 11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Mead: Fair enough on the US law, although you'll understand that the virtual world is not the US. Indeed, a minority of residents are from US now.
  • [2009/04/28 11:40] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine. please do not tell people that we believe we are not subject to appropriate legal jurisdiction
  • [2009/04/28 11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Why are you repeating that?
  • [2009/04/28 11:41] Meadhbh Oh: because i think you're not getting it
  • [2009/04/28 11:41] Zha Ewry poofs off into the ether with her ears bleeding from lawyer speak
  • [2009/04/28 11:41] Morgaine Dinova: I didn';t say it even once, as noted in this transcript. So no more straw men please.
  • [2009/04/28 11:41] Mystical Demina: head out to, cya
  • [2009/04/28 11:42] Meadhbh Oh: under the current international IP regime, the virtual world does not exist in a way that that it can have differentiable legal procedures or laws
  • [2009/04/28 11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Interesting statement. I'm sure it's true too, in terms of RL legalities. However, it's out of step with "Your world, Your imagination."
  • [2009/04/28 11:43] Meadhbh Oh: ack. i gotta run too. it would be a big favor to me if you would not tell people we do not believe ourselves to be subject to appropriate regulation
  • [2009/04/28 11:43] Meadhbh Oh: cheers
  • [2009/04/28 11:44] Morgaine Dinova: And it would be a big favor to me if you did not misrepresent what I say, since I did not say that nor anything like that.
  • [2009/04/28 11:44] Geo Meek: please send me a transcript
  • [2009/04/28 11:46] Geo Meek: maybe we can add that to our profiles
  • [2009/04/28 11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Sai will post it as usual on Groupies page :-) He;s a very reliable service :-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:46] Geo Meek: indeed
  • [2009/04/28 11:47] Geo Meek: i misrepresent myself all the time
  • [2009/04/28 11:47] Morgaine Dinova: English is ambiguous, we all do it accidentally :-)
  • [2009/04/28 11:48] Geo Meek: ;-)

[2009/04/28 11:49] Geo Meek: im off to get some boxes im moving please have a good day :-)

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