Mesh/Archive/2012-06-11

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Agenda

  1. I and many others eagerly await the permissions experience system, as well as the llTeleportAgent functions. Is there any time frame (one week, one month, Ho Ho Ho) on when it'll roll out to all sims?
  2. Material system: We want our bump/emission/cube/normal maps. Please to have? Is it even a side project that someone is dinking with on their own over lunch?
  3. Custom armatures: I'm sure you're tired of hearing us request it, but is there any news on this front?
  4. With the inclusion of the permissions experience system, will there ever be thought put into a "trusted builders" program where scripts made by a trusted individual (or maybe even just the scripts themselves) who applies to LL with some sort of agreement to do no harm can be allowed to have functional scripts everywhere as per this system? For example, if I were in this hypothetical program (or the script was submitted to it) and I made an awesome teleporter that uses llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords, it would work for everyone everywhere without need for permissions, as per sim script activity rules (no script, no run. But if it did, no permission asked to teleport) (all 4 by Feynt Mistral 08:28, 11 June 2012 (PDT) )
  5. Mesh Deformer: What is the current status of deformer testing and what is its priority level? I've heard that redoing the shape keys for the fat and muscle sliders is being considered as a fix for the distortions on more extreme shapes. Is this accurate? If so, is LL set on doing this themselves or would they accept a donation on that task? The timeline is fairly important to the design community, and we can't imagine the workload you must be dealing with. Is there anything we can do to help this particular project along? Elie Spot 11:27, 11 June 2012 (PDT)
  6. Did the road bump problem solved? only RC Cannel? Yuzuru Jewell 12:02, 11 June 2012 (PDT)
  7. My new mesh seagulls get culled by the viewer at 10-15m camera distance. Setting RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4 makes a huge difference and renders them from a much greater distance. Can we make the "high" setting of "PREFERENCES / Graphics / MESH DETAIL / OBJECTS" a higher RenderVolumeLODfactor . https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3032?focusedCommentId=330131#comment-330131

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday June 11, 2012

[11:59] Nyx Linden greetings all
[11:59] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Nyx!
[11:59] Vivian Pinelli hello Elie
[11:59] Elie Spot hey nyx!
[11:59] Kade Maven hello
[11:59] Vivian Pinelli Hello Nyx
[11:59] Feynt Mistral It feels as though sitting on the couch is no longer stylish?
[11:59] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Heya Nyx
[11:59] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Feynt
[11:59] Vivian Pinelli ^^
[12:00] Nyx Linden agenda is here, feel free to add topics: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:00] Kade Maven lol
[12:00] Feynt Mistral The first four are my questions! >D
[12:00] Feynt Mistral I'll be dominating the first 3-20 minutes, wooo.
[12:01] Elie Spot as long as you dont do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk1mAd77Hr4
[12:01] Elie Spot xD
[12:01] Nyx Linden as such, let's jump right into it. first topic: "I and many others eagerly await the permissions experience system, as well as the llTeleportAgent functions. Is there any time frame (one week, one month, Ho Ho Ho) on when it'll roll out to all sims?"
[12:01] Vivian Pinelli lmao Elie
[12:01] Feynt Mistral No, that's for tonight with mah girl. >3
[12:01] Elie Spot xD
[12:02] Nyx Linden honestly, I don't know
[12:02] Elie Spot (cory <#33)
[12:02] Tyr Rozenblum found a cory <3
[12:02] Isla Gealach Hiya Cory :)
[12:02] Feynt Mistral Aww, but... it's content!
[12:02] C. Edo (cory.edo) heya everybodeh
[12:02] Nyx Linden we got a bit of a preview of the new teleport functionality at the last usergroup meeting unexpectedly.
[12:02] Feynt Mistral >D
[12:02] Nyx Linden so there are still a few bugs to work out
[12:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hiya Cory
[12:03] Feynt Mistral Yes I heard about that.
[12:03] Nyx Linden I don't know what the updated timeframe is for release, sorry
[12:03] Feynt Mistral Aww.
[12:03] Feynt Mistral If you can append it to the log at some point, if you know, that'd be super.
[12:03] Feynt Mistral Err, find out.
[12:03] Nyx Linden next topic: "Material system: We want our bump/emission/cube/normal maps. Please to have? Is it even a side project that someone is dinking with on their own over lunch?"
[12:04] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Many yellow triangular pyramids..
[12:04] Isla Gealach many
[12:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) You see traingular pyramids?
[12:04] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) .
[12:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) '*triangular
[12:04] Tyr Rozenblum i never see triangle pyramids :x but i upped my mesh stuff so people didnt poof on me
[12:05] Nyx Linden It would be nice to have indeed :)
[12:05] C. Edo (cory.edo) yeah I'd like to see the default mesh count upped across the board first, or a better way to up that number without going into the advanced debug menu
[12:05] Isla Gealach and having people mess with settings they are afraid to do so.
[12:05] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Agreed Cory
[12:05] Tyr Rozenblum bump maps would be amazing
[12:06] Tyr Rozenblum i had heard a rumor that they were a project on the side? love to hear more about that too (on topic)
[12:06] Nyx Linden I don't believe we have an internal project spun up around trying to ship a materials system currently. As for anything more informal, well, I'm not about to comment on the existance or non-existance of unofficial projects
[12:06] Feynt Mistral /me slips you a nut and bolt sandwich for some info off the record.
[12:07] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Unofficial LL projects you mean?
[12:07] Nyx Linden materials system is a project I'd personally like to see happen at some point, but I don't have any information to share on what that would look like, or timeframes
[12:08] Feynt Mistral That it's even being worked on would be enough.
[12:08] Nyx Linden on a similar note, topic 3: "Custom armatures: I'm sure you're tired of hearing us request it, but is there any news on this front?"
[12:08] Tyr Rozenblum nice to know at the very least you are interested nyx :>
[12:08] Nyx Linden another feature I'd like to see happen someday, but doesn't have a team focused on it
[12:09] Feynt Mistral How about that new kid you stuffed in the closet office?
[12:09] Feynt Mistral Is he working on it? >3
[12:09] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Feynt
[12:09] Nyx Linden on the whole, we're mostly currently focused on making the features we do have (or already have in flight) work better, over starting to add on new features.
[12:10] NikoKito Aries hello
[12:10] Feynt Mistral /me argues that mesh without custom armatures is a "feature in flight" and needs its conclusion. >3
[12:10] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Do you have any mesh features "in flight" now?
[12:11] Feynt Mistral Mostly I just want to make sure it's not forgotten and that someone has at least put a pen to paper to scribble something about class hierarchies over lunch or something.
[12:11] Feynt Mistral Coffee and/or mustard stains are alright.
[12:11] Nyx Linden its not forgotten, but neither is it top priority at the moment
[12:12] Nyx Linden topic #4: "With the inclusion of the permissions experience system, will there ever be thought put into a "trusted builders" program where scripts made by a trusted individual (or maybe even just the scripts themselves) who applies to LL with some sort of agreement to do no harm can be allowed to have functional scripts everywhere as per this system? For example, if I were in this hypothetical program (or the script was submitted to it) and I made an awesome teleporter that uses llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords, it would work for everyone everywhere without need for permissions, as per sim script activity rules (no script, no run. But if it did, no permission asked to teleport) (all 4 by Feynt Mistral 08:28, 11 June 2012 (PDT) )"
[12:15] Nyx Linden interesting concept, there definitely are a couple security issues with the specific example you present
[12:16] Jonathan (jonathan.yap) There would beed to be a new viewer setting "Do not trust Trusted Builder Scripts"
[12:17] Feynt Mistral Wifi death. I missed the answer. D<
[12:17] Nyx Linden "interesting concept, there definitely are a couple security issues with the specific example you present"
[12:17] Feynt Mistral Ah, yes, I would expect as much.
[12:18] Feynt Mistral It, I imagine, require a trusted board of observers to study the scripts before they're approved for this sort of program.
[12:18] Elie Spot thats a cool idea o.O
[12:18] Nyx Linden any such program would have a good bit of administrative work to be done to manage the program before it could even be considered. You're welcome to write up your thoughts on how such a program would work, if you would like
[12:19] Feynt Mistral I'll have the notecard to you soon.
[12:19] Nyx Linden jiras are preferred if possible - easier to pass to other lindens :)
[12:19] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I though LL was already going to have a "trusted builder" program for those functions?
[12:20] Feynt Mistral Oh wah, notecards take time to drag and drop. >D
[12:20] Nyx Linden easier to collaborate on a medium that is shared and version controlled is all :)
[12:21] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *thought
[12:21] Nyx Linden next topic: "Mesh Deformer: What is the current status of deformer testing and what is its priority level? I've heard that redoing the shape keys for the fat and muscle sliders is being considered as a fix for the distortions on more extreme shapes. Is this accurate? If so, is LL set on doing this themselves or would they accept a donation on that task? The timeline is fairly important to the design community, and we can't imagine the workload you must be dealing with. Is there anything we can do to help this particular project along? Elie Spot 11:27, 11 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:21] Feynt Mistral Fie, I say!
[12:22] Al Supercharge too late to add to agenda ?
[12:22] Nyx Linden should be enough time, feel free to add more topics
[12:22] Al Supercharge whats the url again ?
[12:22] Cracked Mirror good topic
[12:22] Nyx Linden as for the deformer, Oz is the one working most closely with Qarl on that project, he would know best what the current status and holdups are.
[12:22] Elie Spot He actually told me he's not the one to speak with about it
[12:23] Tyr Rozenblum you can see why we're all a bit lost
[12:23] Elie Spot as Qarl is pretty much done w/ the current version, it is only awaiting fixes to make it work for more extreme shapes
[12:23] Elie Spot the deformer is pretty much sitting in LL's camp right now
[12:24] Nyx Linden the issue of extreme shapes is definitely an issue that needs to be discussed
[12:24] Tyr Rozenblum you have a team of residents ready to step up and help as well, if we could get a few straight answers on what exactly to do. :>
[12:24] Nal (nalates.urriah) I missed this morning meeting with Oz. But, last I heard he is still deciding what to do with the base shape the Deformer starts from.
[12:24] Elie Spot exactly
[12:24] TheBlack Box qarl mentioned something about the deformer status in this podcast recently -> http://metarealitypodcast.com/the-status-of-virtual-worlds
[12:25] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) There are surely many people willing to get the deformer project moving forward.
[12:25] Elie Spot yeah, thats where we're at now
[12:25] Nyx Linden sounds like you guys are more up to date on this project than I am currently
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) http://blog.nalates.net/2012/06/07/do-sl-mesh-clothes-fit/
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) Take the Poll
[12:25] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) In that podcast he said he is waiting on LL now.
[12:25] Feynt Mistral lulz
[12:26] Nal (nalates.urriah) Oz is testing various mesh clothes with the deformer in Hippo Hollow. He is looking for more male clothes to test.
[12:26] Al Supercharge Not getting the agenda page -- let me paste https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3032?focusedCommentId=330131#comment-330131
[12:26] Feynt Mistral I have little to no interest in deformers, but I'd be interested in seeing this one completed too.
[12:26] Nyx Linden https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:26] Elie Spot The idea to move the base av verts around had the potential issue of warping current base clothing and skin, which no one wants. However, if the av keys were altered on the fat and muscle sliders, this would give a smoother extreme avatar and most likely prevent some distortions and warping. Who exactly would be doing this work though?
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Did he said what male clothing he needs Nal?
[12:26] Al Supercharge Make the "high" setting of "PREFERENCES / Graphics / MESH DETAIL / OBJECTS" a higher RenderVolumeLODfactor
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *say
[12:27] Elie Spot Oz said this concept would be presented to the Lindens working on it, but names were not given
[12:27] Nal (nalates.urriah) No, Asha. Just more examples.
[12:27] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Alright, thanks Nal
[12:27] Elie Spot we do have somoene wililng to donate this work.. if it would speed things along
[12:27] Elie Spot we'd like to get this solution in testing soon if possible
[12:28] Cracked Mirror agreed
[12:28] Tyr Rozenblum a lot of us are hanging on every word at this point from the lindens, we cant stress this enough, speaking for fashion designers doing mesh as a whole
[12:28] Tyr Rozenblum how important this issue is.
[12:28] TheBlack Box hi Oz
[12:28] Tyr Rozenblum not just to us, but the majority of the residents wanting to wear mesh.
[12:28] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) No kidding
[12:28] TheBlack Box people are asking about Qarl's deformer project and what the status is ... can you tell ?
[12:29] Oz Linden testing
[12:29] Tyr Rozenblum hey there oz.
[12:29] Feynt Mistral Morning Oz.
[12:29] NikoKito Aries welcome Oz
[12:29] NikoKito Aries (Q-Translator es->en): Oz welcome

[12:29] Tyr Rozenblum and the skys parted, and god said unto mesh meeting, i bring you oz linden
[12:29] Vivian Pinelli hi Oz
[12:29] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hola Oz
[12:29] C. Edo (cory.edo) woot howdy oz
[12:29] Aargle Zymurgy /me waves at Oz
[12:29] Oz Linden We've given Qarl some feedback. In its present form, it's not quite good enough, but I don't think we should get into details.
[12:29] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Pz
[12:29] Elie Spot we just want to know when this solution is going to be implemented, and if its going to take months, would LL accept a donation on this work? we could probably have the fixed av keys on the sliders done within 2 weeks
[12:30] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Oz
[12:30] TheBlack Box drama-avoidance mode ... :) .. kk
[12:31] TheBlack Box so we just gonna make up some rumors as always
[12:31] Oz Linden you wouldn't anyway ?
[12:31] Al Supercharge done - thanks
[12:31] Feynt Mistral Haters gonna hate.
[12:31] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol
[12:31] Elie Spot im sorry I'm not sure who is talking about what
[12:31] Elie Spot to who
[12:31] Tyr Rozenblum we're creeping up on mesh's birthday..it would be nice after this long to have some steady ground. Dont get me wrong i realize projects like this take a while.
[12:31] NikoKito Aries welcome ANSI
[12:32] NikoKito Aries (Q-Translator es->en): ANSI welcome

[12:32] Tyr Rozenblum we'll be your free labor, command us mighty oz \o/
[12:32] ANSI Soderstrom yay, hi all.... including this toaster :)
[12:32] Nyx Linden shall we move on?
[12:32] Jusden Jonstone can you tell us whether the deformer as is will not be accepted in its current state to be implemented in the official LL Viewer? i
[12:33] Elie Spot we had been pushing for the deformer to support multiple sizes , assuming fixing the base av was out of the question. I was told fixing the base av is definitely being considered
[12:33] Elie Spot so I'm trying to find out more about that
[12:33] Oz Linden I think I just did, Jusden.
[12:34] Feynt Mistral You did indeed.
[12:34] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) So, that means it won't be included in the viewer at this time until Qarl makes some fixes or until LL changes some avatar weighting?
[12:34] Cracked Mirror it all seems VERY vague to me, we're just trying to clear things up
[12:34] Elie Spot Yeah, the fixes qarl was wanting to make won't be accepted at this time
[12:34] Elie Spot as the avatar itself needs to be fixed and tested before qarl's fixes will be considered
[12:34] Oz Linden or both, Asha ...
[12:35] Elie Spot so are the av keys on the fat and muscle sliders going to be fixed?
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ok, I see. :/
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Heya Eboni :)
[12:36] Eboni (eboni.khan) hello :)
[12:36] C. Edo (cory.edo) ebssssss
[12:36] Tyr Rozenblum hi eboni
[12:36] Oz Linden there are problems with the avatar, and there are problems with the deformer. It remains to be seen whether or not we can fix the avatar problems (I'm looking into it from a couple of angles)
[12:36] Isla Gealach Hiya Eboni
[12:36] Eboni (eboni.khan) Hi plurk timeline :)
[12:36] Elie Spot Ah ok, can you share what the prospective solutions are?
[12:36] Oz Linden but we hope that it's possible to make some progress on the deformer even without those fixes
[12:37] Oz Linden I could if I knew them Elie, but no.
[12:37] Elie Spot who exactly is working on it within LL?
[12:37] Elie Spot or is it sorta not a priorty currently?
[12:37] Elie Spot priority*
[12:38] Oz Linden that's not something I can share right now. It's a pretty high priority for me, though
[12:39] Tyr Rozenblum thats good atleast.
[12:39] Elie Spot we're sure you guys have tons on your plate.. but if this solution of fixing the av keys can be seriously considered, we're willing to do the work on it without a second thought
[12:39] Tyr Rozenblum thank you oz.
[12:39] Elie Spot yes realy glad to know that seriously!
[12:40] Elie Spot is there any way to follow up on this? find out if this solution is really going to be pursued and let us know if we can donate it to save time?
[12:40] Oz Linden very seriously
[12:40] Oz Linden My job is to get things done through the contributions process; rest assured that if that looks possible, you'll hear from me right away
[12:42] Elie Spot Okay, any idea when you'll know more?
[12:42] Aargle Zymurgy I'm not involved in mesh at all, but I find it amazing the passion and support that it's got from everyone.
[12:42] TheBlack Box Oz is trying to hide the truth from us ! It turns out Qarl is a frog and LL is trying to cover it up with a massive conspiracy ... i knew it !
[12:43] Nyx Linden alright, safe to move to the next topic?
[12:43] Nyx Linden (two more to go)
[12:43] Nyx Linden next topic: "Did the road bump problem solved? only RC Cannel? Yuzuru Jewell 12:02, 11 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:44] Nyx Linden apologies Yuzuru, I had to do some scrambling last week, but I got the landmark you sent me and I'll be reaching out to see if I can get an answer on the best way to minimize those bumps
[12:46] Nyx Linden final topic: "My new mesh seagulls get culled by the viewer at 10-15m camera distance. Setting RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4 makes a huge difference and renders them from a much greater distance. Can we make the "high" setting of "PREFERENCES / Graphics / MESH DETAIL / OBJECTS" a higher RenderVolumeLODfactor . https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3032?focusedCommentId=330131#comment-330131"
[12:47] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Did you get my landmark, Nyx?
[12:47] Nyx Linden yes I did get the landmark - thanks for sending that along
[12:47] Isla Gealach Yes. Definitely. This would help so much with many things.
[12:47] Al Supercharge max setting now is 2
[12:48] Al Supercharge unless u got into debug
[12:48] Isla Gealach 2 is just too low. LOD has to be intense for people to keep things from collapsing. For rezzed items that makes the LI for larger structures go wild. The average user doesn't understand debug settings.
[12:49] Al Supercharge I'll need to be sending a graphic of how to set RenderVolumeLODfactor with every seagull otherwise
[12:49] Nyx Linden probably not going to make such a change, cranking up that number has a large performance impact on some machines. If your seagulls are disappearing, is it because the lower LODs aren't detailed enough to show the full volume of the seagull?
[12:49] Nal (nalates.urriah) I am wondering why you don't change your LoD design?
[12:50] Al Supercharge yes but ....
[12:50] Kade Maven Some machines have performance issues cranking to ultra.. but the option is there for those who can handle it. It's not even a possiblity?
[12:50] Isla Gealach higher resolution at lower LODs makes the LI go from nominal to intense.
[12:50] Al Supercharge high and medium are as genearted
[12:50] Nyx Linden sometimes even with our auto-generated LODs, the volume of the object is not preserved and you get lower LODs that aren't representative of the object, even at a distance.
[12:50] Nyx Linden you don't need a lot of triangles, just make the triangles a decent size
[12:51] Al Supercharge LOD of 4 cures all !
[12:51] Isla Gealach If you're working with a large structure - such as a building, that makes the LI shoot up considerably
[12:51] Feynt Mistral I STILL disapprove of high LI for large but poly efficient designs.
[12:51] Nyx Linden its generally not recommended to make your low and lowest LODs be unable to represent your object. they should be super-simplified versions but still be valid for display - especially for objects you intend to see at a distance like seagulls
[12:51] Feynt Mistral A 200 poly house should not cost more than a 3k poly statuette.
[12:51] Isla Gealach agreed Fynt
[12:52] Isla Gealach Feynt*
[12:52] Al Supercharge wit hlow and lowest set to default -- LI jumps 14 !
[12:52] Al Supercharge to 17
[12:53] Nyx Linden its fine for the lowest LODs to be custom-made to be super low-poly, but those representations should still be visible at a distance.
[12:54] Al Supercharge jus asking for a 30m distance
[12:54] TheBlack Box the Mesh LI calculation vodoo is a major pita ... but i understand the reasoning behind it ... the result is that you now sometimes have to create a thing in 2 objects that shall not be linked to another ... one with prims+sculpt+scripts and one with mesh ... to get the lowest prim-costs for something ... SL-style hackeria :)
[12:54] Isla Gealach but with large structures they are already quite simplified.
[12:54] Al Supercharge to 40m
[12:55] neblina125 helo junstone
[12:56] Nyx Linden increasing the LOD factor for every object in the world is not a good workaround for an object that doesn't have a workable low/lowest LOD. I don't know that that's whats happening with your seagulls without seeing an example, but that's what it sounds like at first glance.
[12:56] Nyx Linden A billboarded version of the seagull should be fine for a gull that is ~30 m away from the viewer's camera
[12:57] Feynt Mistral I always wondered if it was possible for LL to work their imposters into a solution for distant mesh objects to allow them to retain a higher LoD if one isn't provided for a given lower LoD.
[12:57] Al Supercharge ye - I admit it but they just disappear from clearly visible ( but small) on camera zoom out
[12:58] Al Supercharge at 10-15 m at ULTRA
[12:58] Tyr Rozenblum I tend to upload with a pretty low LOD and i dont have that issue
[12:58] Isla Gealach It's vastly apparent on large structures.
[12:58] Al Supercharge no product worth selling then at 17LI !
[12:58] Nyx Linden I'd like to see what the low LOD representations are, to see if its possible to tweak the content to fix the issue rather than affecting the LOD switching distance of every object in the world. Could you bring an example next week?
[13:00] Al Supercharge well I can tell u its zero low and zero lowest but ... was hoping for better LI with non-zero
[13:00] Al Supercharge for a small object like bird - any recommendations lower than the generated ? for low /lowest ?
[13:01] Nyx Linden if you're using a zero triangle low LOD, then yes it will disappear at a reasonable distance away - you'll need to add a couple triangles to those LODs
[13:01] Nyx Linden I'd recommend a simple plane or box that you can put a render of your gull on
[13:01] Nyx Linden at that distance, there shouldn't be much visibile difference between a 2d or a 3d bird
[13:02] Al Supercharge they are originaly prims - created by TBB's Mesh Studio -- so very efficient mesh I'd imagine
[13:02] Nyx Linden that's about all the time we have for today folks, thanks everyone for coming out!
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