Open Source Meeting/2010-01-21

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[#SNOW-122] disable crashlogger via client parameters (VWR-12678)

[#SNOW-392] llTextBox in client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached

  • [14:11] Merov Linden: this one received massive votes
  • [14:11] Merov Linden: 107
  • [14:12] Merov Linden: so I gather people would like it
  • [14:12] Merov Linden: but the patch is 1.22 based and needs serious work
  • [14:12] Merov Linden: so I don't think it's fair to sneak it in Snowglobe right now
  • [14:13] Jonathan Yap: If it is not done now when people are paying attention to it, would it come out in the near future?
  • [14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: how risky is it for exisiting functionality (once it's ported )?
  • [14:13] Merov Linden: Jonathan yes it will
  • [14:14] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: I did a cursory look when I tried (unsuccesfully) to merge and it's not massive
  • [14:14] Merov Linden: but it's right in the scripting code and we need to be cautious there
  • [14:15] Merov Linden: we had to wait a long time before looking at it since Hewee was AWL for months
  • [14:16] Merov Linden: well, ok, looks like a "punt" with a "do it next!" tag attached to it
  • [14:16] Merov Linden: would be *really* nice though if someone (anyone) would take over the Snowglobe clean/port and post a new patch
  • [14:17] Merov Linden: volunteers?
  • [14:17] Merov Linden: Hewee seems a little swamped and not super responsive
  • [14:17] Ardy Lay: I looked and got lost. I don't think I am up to the task.
  • [14:17] Eddi Decosta: im horrible in script
  • [14:18] Merov Linden: k, well, may be someone will pcik it up, may be Hewee (I'll comment in JIRA to that effect when punting)
  • [14:19] Merov Linden: ok, lets looks at the bugs now
  • [14:19] Merov Linden: first, the "easy" ones
  • [14:19] Vernes Veranes: is there actually a list somewhere in jira or in the wiki about wanted coders and such? (like what you just asked volenteers for)?
  • [14:19] Merov Linden: SNOW-394
  • [14:19] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-394

[#SNOW-394] Installation: conflict on destop icon creation

  • [14:19] Jonathan Yap: Perhaps a message can be sent on the sldev list about lltextbox needing a volunteer
  • [14:20] Merov Linden: Vernes: there a wiki about how to participate
  • [14:20] Merov Linden: Jonathan: yes, I'll do that too in my next 1.3 update
  • [14:20] Merov Linden: so, 394 is a Windows 7 specific bug apparently
  • [14:21] Merov Linden: I do *not* have a Windows 7 machine on hand
  • [14:21] Merov Linden: makes it hard for me to test/fix
  • [14:21] Eddi Decosta: yeah, mervo, why the software cant detect the dualcore processor on windows 64, and on linux i get this without trouble?
  • [14:21] Merov Linden: besides, we haven't touched the installer in 1.3 (or even 1.2 for that matter)
  • [14:21] Eddi Decosta: merov, sorry my typo ㋡
  • [14:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Eddi - what dual-core? AMD by any chance?
  • [14:22] Eddi Decosta: no its an e8400 lol
  • [14:22] Eddi Decosta: 45 nano
  • [14:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Odd...Windows build can't detect AMD dual-cores correctly either (Linux can).
  • [14:22] Merov Linden: so I'm puzzled by that problem and, though concerning, I'm willing to not consider it as a show stopper
  • [14:22] Merov Linden: agree?
  • [14:22] Merov Linden: or rather: anyone disagree?
  • [14:23] Eddi Decosta: ok for me ㋡
  • [14:23] Merov Linden: I suspect that this installer issue is also existing with 1.23 BTW
  • [14:23] Eddi Decosta: cause the bug is not only on snowglobe ..
  • [14:23] Ardy Lay: Merov, I haven't been able to repro SNOW-394 on my Windows 7.
  • [14:23] Merov Linden: Ah!
  • [14:23] Aimee Linden: from the comments seems they manually created the first icon
  • [14:23] Merov Linden: well, please comment in JIRA to engage the reporter
  • [14:24] Ardy Lay: I will try some more then comment.
  • [14:24] Merov Linden: yeah, and it depends as to whether or not you have admin priv
  • [14:25] Aimee Linden: one's probably in the all users desktop thingy and the other one just for that user or something
  • [14:25] Ardy Lay: Hmm.... The installer should be elevating and installing for all users.
  • [14:25] Aimee Linden: (can tell it's late in the day when I start calling folders "thingy")
  • [14:25] Merov Linden: annoying to see Windows Explorer crashing after install though...
  • [14:25] Vernes Veranes: :)
  • [14:26] Ardy Lay: If you manually create a shortcut as a user maybe ... I can try that.
  • [14:26] Merov Linden: not that it never happens to me on XP with MS very own products mind you...
  • [14:26] Ardy Lay: Thing is, I prefer to uninstall then install. Not overwrite.
  • [14:26] Youri Ashton: thanks for the meeting Merov, i have to poof unfortunately
  • [14:26] Ardy Lay: So I will try overwritting some more.
  • [14:26] Merov Linden: Anyway, seems that 394 not a show stopper it is
  • [14:27] Youri Ashton: bye bye all!
  • [14:27] Ardy Lay: It didn't stop me. :-)
  • [14:27] Vernes Veranes: bye youri
  • [14:27] Eddi Decosta: Hi OO ㋡
  • [14:28] Merov Linden: next "easy" one: SNOW-447
  • [14:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: I would consider SNOW-335 a show stopper, though
  • [14:28] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-447

[#SNOW-447] Fonts become fuzzy and unreadable at any scale.

[#SNOW-335] Installation: "Start Second Life now?" starts SL with admin account/privileges

  • [14:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh,s orry
  • [14:28] Merov Linden: is 335 Snowglobe specific?
  • [14:29] Ardy Lay: Is there a way for the installer to release administrator privs before launching the application?
  • [14:29] Merov Linden: I've never dabbled in the Windows installer so I'm a little wary hacking into it now...
  • [14:29] Morgaine Dinova: It shouldn't say "Start SecondLife now?" anyway, but start *Snowglobe* now.
  • [14:29] Ardy Lay: I don't lett installer launch when they ask so that never bites me.
  • [14:29] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I don't think the installer on Windows has been fiddled with for year?
  • [14:30] Ardy Lay: I never did see the reason for offering that.
  • [14:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: years*
  • [14:30] Merov Linden: Morgaine: right
  • [14:30] Thickbrick Sleaford: the comment by the original report in -335 says it's not snowglobe specific
  • [14:30] Ardy Lay: Most applications don't do that do they?
  • [14:30] Merov Linden saw that about the not Snowglobe specific
  • [14:31] Merov Linden: yeah, I've a hard time stopping 1.3 for this then
  • [14:31] Ardy Lay: No, it's an issue with the installer not being compatible use user account control on later windows versions.
  • [14:32] Thickbrick Sleaford: maybe it's time to upgrade to a newver version of the nullsoft installer after 1.3
  • [14:32] Jonathan Yap: Is it an issue with Vista? It has more security, too
  • [14:32] Merov Linden: Jonathan: no one tested this with Vista apparently
  • [14:33] Merov Linden: ok, I'm still thinking it shouldn't be a show stopper
  • [14:33] Ardy Lay: Yes, I would say it probably hits Vista but cannot test as I never have hade a license for Vista.
  • [14:33] Ardy Lay: Not a showstopper, no.
  • [14:33] Mojito Sorbet: Says the guy who does not use Vista
  • [14:33] Merov Linden: k, SNOW-447 now
  • [14:33] Merov Linden: that one is possibly a regression introduced with 1.3
  • [14:34] Ardy Lay: Mojito, the issue affects Windows 7 too, the OS I do use.
  • [14:34] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, thats ok then. :)
  • [14:34] Merov Linden: see my comment in there
  • [14:34] Merov Linden: but I never got any confirmation from the reporter
  • [14:34] Merov Linden: it
  • [14:34] Merov Linden: it's just me and my all mighty crystal ball making guesses here
  • [14:35] Merov Linden: anyone around here who saw this issue? could run a test with korean/japanese/chinese?
  • [14:36] Merov Linden: anyone?
  • [14:36] Boroondas Gupte: I could test, but I wouldn't know how the characters are supposed to look.
  • [14:36] Mojito Sorbet: ANyone with W7 or Vista should have the fions, and I can send you some japanese
  • [14:37] Mojito Sorbet: 日本
  • [14:37] Merov Linden: ah! let's IM him then
  • [14:37] Jonathan Yap: I just did
  • [14:38] Boroondas Gupte: looks clear an crispy ...
  • [14:38] Mojito Sorbet: First symbol is a box with a horizontal line thru it
  • [14:38] Merov Linden: thanks! can he/she come here?
  • [14:38] Jonathan Yap: I hope he/she shows up in a moment
  • [14:38] Mojito Sorbet: Seoncd looks like a "T"　shape, but with diagonal lines down to the sides
  • [14:38] Merov Linden: hi Satori!
  • [14:38] Satori Taringa: Greetings
  • [14:38] Merov Linden: we were talking about the bug you reported on Snowglobe: SNOW-447
  • [14:39] Satori Taringa: oh... the fuzzy text font.
  • [14:39] Merov Linden: wondering: which OS are you using and which language?
  • [14:39] Robin Cornelius: BRB testing a moment
  • [14:39] Satori Taringa: XP sp3 with an nnvidia Gt6600
  • [14:39] Satori Taringa: pretty standard
  • [14:39] Merov Linden: English?
  • [14:40] Satori Taringa: yep
  • [14:40] Merov Linden: wow!
  • [14:40] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, was this in the chat history window, or in the superimposed chat scroll? Those fonts are different
  • [14:40] Sahkolihaa Contepomi will be right back too as he fixes his own fonts.
  • [14:40] Merov Linden: so now, it's not what I thought
  • [14:40] Satori Taringa: all the fonts, which surprised me
  • [14:40] Satori Taringa: GUI and chat and...
  • [14:40] Mojito Sorbet: How is font scaling set in prefs?
  • [14:41] Satori Taringa: it stayed fuzzy even when I changed in and out of independent resoluton and different scaling
  • [14:41] Merov Linden: Is that something that's specific to Snowglobe?
  • [14:41] Sahkolihaa Contepomi is getting sick and tired of this.
  • [14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: Satori, screenshots comparing good and bad fonts would help here
  • [14:42] Satori Taringa: means reinstalling the latest and greatest, but I'll do it soon
  • [14:43] Thickbrick Sleaford: but it IS the greatest....
  • [14:43] Satori Taringa: :)
  • [14:43] Merov Linden: ok, Satori, you should be adding those screen shot compare and other OS etc... data so we can make progress on this
  • [14:43] Jonathan Yap: and a newer release just came out today
  • [14:43] Merov Linden: first trying to repro ourselves
  • [14:43] Satori Taringa: cool
  • [14:44] Satori Taringa: I'd might have blamed it on an overheated GPU but the shaders usually got before the 2d text handlers
  • [14:44] Satori Taringa: go*
  • [14:44] Merov Linden: ok, we'll see what we can do with the new info
  • [14:45] Satori Taringa: k... have fun and I'll use the newer version.
  • [14:45] Merov Linden: next: SNOW-431
  • [14:45] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-431

[#SNOW-431] Boost downloads for Snowglobe 1.3 aren't really 1.39.0

[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())

[#SNOW-196] Deadlock in LLTextureFetchWorker::lockWorkMutex / LLThread::lockData / LLTextureFetch::lockQueue

[#SNOW-454] SL client freezes or crashes when an avatar wearing a specific object passes through the frustum.

[#SNOW-122] disable crashlogger via client parameters (VWR-12678)

[#SNOW-456] Crash when trying to file an Abuse Report (AR)

2010-01-21T22:56:38Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 4.20

  • [14:57] Thickbrick Sleaford: 0.2 fps
  • [14:57] Opensource Obscure: no. Merov, expect an official warning xD
  • [14:58] Boroondas Gupte: Sometimes when I repro this, SL spits out a trace (not always though.) Would that be useful?
  • [14:58] Merov Linden tempted to try to repro on Mac but then... that'd be unfriendly as the meeting guy...
  • [14:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi extracts the tarball.
  • [14:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ok, be right back.
  • [14:58] Merov Linden: ok, well, looks like that one needs more testing
  • [14:59] Merov Linden: ok, so, it looks like we *can* branch (once 122 is in) as we're not waiting for any new feature
  • [14:59] Thickbrick Sleaford: Boroondas, you get the crash on a linden-built viewer, or self built? (and is it a DEBUG build?)
  • [14:59] Merov Linden: I'll do all that and create a clean RC (with the correct version number and channel) right away
  • [14:59] Boroondas Gupte: it's self-built
  • [15:00] Merov Linden: now, we have only minutes left
  • [15:00] Boroondas Gupte: and standalone, as there are no prebuilt libs for x86_64
  • [15:00] Ardy Lay: Merov, what the login page picture URL gonna be? about:blank again?
  • [15:00] Ardy Lay: That made people ask me questions. :-)
  • [15:01] Ardy Lay: I guess they want to see pretty pictures.
  • [15:01] Merov Linden: I don't know, I don;t think we change the login page picture for new Snowglobe versions in the past
  • [15:01] Merov Linden: may be we should, I'll check that
  • [15:02] Merov Linden: pretty picture is good
  • [15:02] Opensource Obscure: re: SNOW-456 i now see that the bug is about a selfbuilt Snowglobe . my viewer is instead a test build i downloaded.
  • [15:02] Ardy Lay: When I buld myself I get a picture with a winter scene and a snow globe setting in the snow.
  • [15:02] Boroondas Gupte: I'll try with the test build later
  • [15:03] Merov Linden: yeah, I can't remember off the top of my head when and where this URL is cahnged
  • [15:03] Ardy Lay: Okay. Just was curious.
  • [15:03] Merov Linden: did that in the past with robla
  • [15:03] Thickbrick Sleaford: probably server side determined by the channel
  • [15:03] Merov Linden: probably, yes
  • [15:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Could someone tell me where the log file is kept on Linux? Snowglobe deadlocked right at login.
  • [15:04] Opensource Obscure: ~/.secondlife/logs ?
  • [15:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I'm on OMV right now.
  • [15:04] Thickbrick Sleaford: yes
  • [15:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I'm obviously blind then.
  • [15:04] Opensource Obscure: Viewer 2 coming in February (or March...) -
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2010/01/21/coming-soon-viewer-2-public-beta
  • [15:04] Thickbrick Sleaford: ooh
  • [15:05] Merov Linden: well, that's a good segway in the next agenda item
  • [15:05] Robin Cornelius: does that mean we will get a beta and be left in the dark for the code?
  • [15:05] Merov Linden: "Life after 1.3"
  • [15:05] Opensource Obscure: today we have a 2-hours meeting?
  • [15:05] Merov Linden: no, I'm over time
  • [15:06] Merov Linden: so, my next big work item will be "Snowglobe 2"
  • [15:06] Opensource Obscure: yaaay !
  • [15:06] Merov Linden: a rebasing of Snowglobe off the Viewer 2.0 code base
  • [15:06] Ardy Lay: Sounds painful.
  • [15:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: that means mergins everything from 2.0, or just http-textures and plugins?
  • [15:06] Merov Linden: it's going to be loads of fun... (like Ardy says...)
  • [15:06] Opensource Obscure: sounds interesting to me!
  • [15:07] Aimee Linden gets icepacks ready
  • [15:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I...don't see anything in the log that caused the deadlock. :s
  • [15:07] Aimee Linden: and places a swear box on Merov's desk
  • [15:07] Eddi Decosta: LOL Aimee¸
  • [15:07] Opensource Obscure: :D
  • [15:08] Merov Linden: well, I'm saying "rebase" and not "merge" as the code is so different it'll be easier to cherry pick the Snowglobe specific things and port them than trying to merge Viewer 2 directly
  • [15:08] Vernes Veranes: Little newbie question, if I would have an idea that might increase performance of the viewer, the snowglobe viewer would be the first place the feature would be actually tested in if people were interested in it enough?
  • [15:08] Morgaine Dinova: Should the question be "What is NOT going to get rebased to Viewer2.0 in Snowglobe?" ?
  • [15:08] Merov Linden: may be that should be the question but I'm not understanding it
  • [15:08] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [15:08] Morgaine Dinova blames self
  • [15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: Vernes, that was one of the purposed of Snowglobe when it started
  • [15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: *puposes
  • [15:09] Vernes Veranes: Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
  • [15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: *purposes, even
  • [15:09] Boroondas Gupte: Will all Snowglobe specific stuff be cherry-picked or just some? (Maybe that was Morgaine's question)
  • [15:09] Merov Linden: Vernes: what Thickbrick said (minus typos)
  • [15:09] Morgaine Dinova: What parts of Snowglobe will get upgraded/downgraded/changed to Viewer2.0 counterparts?
  • [15:09] Merov Linden: ah!
  • [15:09] Vernes Veranes: Thanks :)
  • [15:10] Merov Linden: OK, *all* will be cherry picked as a matter of principle
  • [15:10] Merov Linden: but I'm sure to run into oddities and case by case issues
  • [15:10] Merov Linden: some (in no particular order):
  • [15:10] Sahkolihaa Contepomi doesn't understand why Snowglobe didn't deadlock this time.
  • [15:11] Jonathan Yap: I think there is a bit of confusion, will Snowglobe be made to look/work like V2.0, or will V2.0 be getting Snowglobe parts (or both)?
  • [15:11] Thickbrick Sleaford: it looks like Aleric is getting a handle on SNOW-196
  • [15:11] Merov Linden: - features that are Snowglobe specific but already merged in Viewer 2.0: e.g. Minimap imrpvement, http-texture, pluginapi
  • [15:12] Merov Linden: for those, I'll trust the Viewer2 code base and skip Snowglobe commits
  • [15:12] Merov Linden: - features that are pure UI changes (e.g. small UI changes): I'll have to port (recode) those pretty much from scratch if they still make sense in the new UI...
  • [15:12] Robin Cornelius: Merov, what aere we doing with trunk ATM? are we free to commit new things still? or is that going to mess the merge/rebase up?
  • [15:13] Ardy Lay: I guess we should, when we get access to it, try all our bug reproductions on Viewer 2.0.
  • [15:13] Merov Linden: Robin: the svn trunk will be open for commit
  • [15:13] Merov Linden: it's just that I won't be committing in it that much
  • [15:13] Merov Linden: but you're welcome to still do it
  • [15:14] Robin Cornelius: ok, its entire things that you already know about i will be committing, so they should also with rebasing commit to 2.0
  • [15:14] Merov Linden: I *hope* I'll be able to come out of the pile soon-ush
  • [15:14] Merov Linden: ish
  • [15:14] Merov Linden: "they"?
  • [15:15] Morgaine Dinova: I'm not sure I understand the merging of Viewer2.0. Wasn't Snowglobe intended to be its own beast, and only kept in sync for protocol reasons? Only the forward-merging of new Viewer2.0 features makes sense to me.
  • [15:15] Merov Linden: another change with Snowglobe 2: we'll be moving to hg (Mercurial)
  • [15:15] Boroondas Gupte: yay
  • [15:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh!
  • [15:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: something new to learn
  • [15:16] Merov Linden: Morgaine: it's "its own thing" in the sense that we (this community) own where it goes, its agenda if you wish
  • [15:16] Merov Linden: but it was never intended to be a fork from the main viewer
  • [15:17] Morgaine Dinova: Those two lines don't appear to be consistent
  • [15:17] Merov Linden: as *most* of the improvements we do here are, eventually, candidates to be merged back into the main viewer
  • [15:17] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think that's another agenda item for post-1.3: where do we want to take snowglobe
  • [15:17] Merov Linden: yeah, that's a big one indeed
  • [15:18] Thickbrick Sleaford: is it just a fast way to get stuff into the main viewer, or do we want to collect sa many features as we can, or somewher einthe middle
  • [15:19] Merov Linden: it's a way to experiment with new things collectively faster than with the main viewer
  • [15:19] Merov Linden: it's the place where other open source viewer will come to base their stuff from
  • [15:20] Merov Linden: I'd like to see Snowglobe as the active core base for FLOSS viewers
  • [15:20] Boroondas Gupte: A lot of 3rd party clients seem to share a lot of the same additionional features, so it'd be useful if they could base themselves on code that already contains them, once an implementation has proven itself and is quasi-established. Though I don't know if Snowglobe could take that roll.
  • [15:20] Boroondas Gupte: *role
  • [15:21] Morgaine Dinova: I guess it's a shadow branch, rather than a fork. But the conflict arises if commits actually change the parts near the root of the branch --- if trunk doesn't accept the changes, then it's necessarily a fork.
  • [15:21] Merov Linden: Boroondas: I see it could take such a role, the danger is to become the kitchen sink of all features
  • [15:22] Thickbrick Sleaford: to phrase is differently, where do we fall on the imprudence/emerald division
  • [15:22] Merov Linden: Morgaine: yes, but there is small and big changes, core and satellite
  • [15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Actually, the kitchen sink is very useful because it creates commonality. The big danger with kitchen sink is bloat leading to flakiness.
  • [15:22] Merov Linden: bloat is something I'd like to avoid
  • [15:23] Boroondas Gupte: Well, the feature would have to be present or wanted in a majority of 3rd party viewers to be included. But could that be the only criterion? Like, RLVa seems quite popular to have around (even if not everyone who has it it their viewer uses it).
  • [15:23] Merov Linden: that's what makes the viewer so hard to grok
  • [15:23] Morgaine Dinova mumbles "refactored multi-process viewer" ...
  • [15:24] Merov Linden: here's a comparison: I'd like to see Snowglobe as the "Webkit" of FLOSS viewers
  • [15:24] Merov Linden: in a way
  • [15:24] Boroondas Gupte: makes sense
  • [15:24] Merov Linden: ok, I know, we are *not* there yet due to the interdependencies between parts (especially UI...)
  • [15:24] Merov Linden: but, conceptually, that'd be the ideal
  • [15:25] Merov Linden: the core functionalities of an ideal, streamlines viewer
  • [15:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: hypothetrically, if someone post a patch for snowglobe that is a redesign/refactoring of some basic system (say inventory), 1) what are the chances of that getting into snowglobe, 2) what are the chances of something like that being picked up by the main LL viewer
  • [15:26] Merov Linden: so that may mean that if viewer blah wants to add a feature for their particular vertical / use case, we'd say: well, do it, but we won't take it in Snowglobe
  • [15:27] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: it's hard to answer that question in abstracto
  • [15:27] Vernes Veranes: It's not just a matter of vote and pro vs cons?
  • [15:27] Thickbrick Sleaford: I guess, but I'm asking what factor affect the decision
  • [15:27] Thickbrick Sleaford: what factors
  • [15:27] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think it's up to us what makes it back into main viewer, it's strictly an internal LL thing to ponder.
  • [15:27] Merov Linden: I'd say "the chances are fairly good" but that depends on what server side assumption this change makes, how sound it is, etc...
  • [15:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'm asking from an intrusivense in varous part of the viewer angle
  • [15:28] Morgaine Dinova: If merges to Snowglobe are subject to likelihood of main viewer merging them, then clearly Snowglobe is in a straightjacket.
  • [15:29] Merov Linden: Morgaine: I don't see it that way
  • [15:29] Merov Linden: really
  • [15:30] Merov Linden: if we want to design a system collaboratively that takes al aspect into consideration (including interop and protocols) we are in a straightjacket anyway
  • [15:30] Morgaine Dinova: Well, it's hypothetical or abstract anyway, as you said. Let's wait to see if there are any useful commits rejected on main viewer unsuitability grounds.
  • [15:31] Merov Linden: we could do things the "MS IE" way (implement in IE and throw it to the face of the W3C...) but is that a model you want to follow?
  • [15:31] Morgaine Dinova: That begs the question of who is who in the analogy ^_^
  • [15:31] Merov Linden: I know it doesn't work really... and it's not advisable...
  • [15:32] Merov Linden: ah! yes, there's no W3C for VW... yet! but one can argue that the community as a whole is shaping as a body in need of interop standards
  • [15:32] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed.
  • [15:33] Merov Linden: so in that comparison, LL would be MS... or rather, I'd like LL not to become MS :)
  • [15:33] Morgaine Dinova chuckles
  • [15:34] Merov Linden: well, I worked on VML while at MS so I know which way to do things it harmful to all
  • [15:34] Merov Linden: lessons learned
  • [15:34] Merov Linden: ok, we're *waaay* over time and I bet we've all plenty of things to do
  • [15:35] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Merov, tc :-)
  • [15:35] Merov Linden: thanks for staying that long and helping sorting the last 1.3 issues out

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