User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 12 06

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Josette, you're done cooking.
[17:02]	Josette Nightfire:	yeah I'm done stick a fork in me
[17:02]	Josette Nightfire:	Ha ha ha ha - he he he!!! =D
[17:02]	Drake Bacon:	Stick a fork in her, Drew, she's done!
[17:03]	Josette Nightfire:	sorry its afk thing I bought recently
[17:03]	Seven Shikami:	Hallo.
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	no problem
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to set down a table for some office hours
[17:03]	Drake Bacon:	Better get my tail out of the way.
[17:03]	Josette Nightfire:	you have meetings here??
[17:04]	Drake Bacon:	It's the Havok 4 office hour.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I hold office hours here, twice a week
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	you're welcome to attend
[17:04]	Seven Shikami:	If it's physics office hours you should have a desk constructed entirely of perpetually moving and colliding buckyballs or something.
[17:04]	Josette Nightfire:	ah I just come here because my friends show up here all the time well most of the time. I guess not today though.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	the agenda is not set, but I usually talk about the Havok4 project for a bit
[17:05]	Josette Nightfire:	I'm new so I dont really know what Havok4 is??
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Those are some whacked out breast attachments you've got there Drake
[17:06]	Drake Bacon:	I have an article on that in the Metaverse Messenger. Let me see if I can get the URL for the PDF.
[17:06]	Drake Bacon:	Thanks, I made them myself.
[17:06]	Drake Bacon:	If they offend, let me know.
[17:06]	snaibi Meili:	hi
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	No worries.
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	Josette - it's a new physics engine for the simulators. Should help make the world better
[17:06]	Seven Shikami:	Oooh, dynamic chairs.
[17:06]	Josette Nightfire:	oh ok
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	tell you what... I'm going to be right back... 60 seconds. I need to get some water and a snack...
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	or I'm going to die
[17:06]	Drake Bacon:	Get food!
[17:07]	snaibi Meili:	nice table
[17:07]	Josette Nightfire:	>_> I dont think breasts really offend anyone unless your in a PG area
[17:07]	Josette Nightfire:	Ha ha ha ha - he he he!!! =D
[17:07]	Drake Bacon:	Yeah, in the PG areas I drop to a male red wolf Luskwood avatar.
[17:07]	Josette Nightfire:	ah I see
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	ok back
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	ok I guess I'll start with an update to the Havok4 project...
[17:09]	Drake Bacon:	I hope you don't mind this going into an article, Andrew.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	We're currently in another wave of fixing bugs. There aren't any horrible terrible ones that we're focusing on
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	just some kinda annoying ones and some content that doesn't work quite right
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I have no problem with you putting it into an article Drake.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I also publish the transcripts on a wikp page: wiki.secondlife.com://User:Andrew_Linden is where I put all the links
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	er... lemme double check that address..
[17:11]	Drake Bacon notes that the M2 archives are down. May have to put the articles in a WordPress blog.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, should be http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andrew_Linden
[17:12]	Kitto Flora:	Ghaaaa - wreteched forced updates!!!!!!!!!
[17:12]	Basic Chair:	Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	anyway... we're currently trying to fix enough bugs that we have something that a few estate owners will be willing to try out
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	to see if the early Havok4 simulator can reduce their crash rate without breaking too much of their content
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	might not be ready for everyone yet, but there may be a few estates that don't use anything that Havok4 breaks atm
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Today I've been working on region crossings and avatar sit bugs
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't started working on vehicles again. Probably get to those next week.
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	Is that region crossing in general
[17:14]	Drake Bacon:	Are you looking for estate owners to test the Havok4 code?
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	or just associated with sit?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Both Kitto. I fixed a bug related to using a jetpack when crossing region boundaries in Havok4, and also some sit bugs.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Drake, yes we're looking for candidate estate owners.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder is coordinating that, and has about a dozen volunteers so far.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	The initial stages will be small... a dozen or less
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	we expect to rapidly get a list of objectionable bugs... some estate owners may opt to return to Havok1 for the time being.
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	But the hope is to get a good prioritization on the most important bugs to fix first.
[17:16]	Drake Bacon:	Oh, so it would be deployed on various sims for testing on the live grid?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and to gradually expand the trial to include more estate owners as those bugs are fixed.
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, these would be trial deployments to SL proper.
[17:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, can you say what class of Sim Balance is in the Beta Grid?
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Also, we'll probably open up a sandbox or two, and a region for testing crashy content.
[17:18]	Seven Shikami:	A sandbox would definitely help, to tweak apps for use with H4.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, could you rephrase that question? What do you mean "Sim Balance" ?
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	The region called 'Balance'
[17:18]	Drake Bacon:	Any more folk and I'll be sitting in Andrew's lap. :)
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Do you mean, "What class of hardware is running the region called "Balance" on the Beta Grid?"
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme check...
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Ah... Balance is configured for "class 0" which means, it wll accept any class that happens to be avaialble
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	at the moment...
[17:19]	Drake Bacon:	Related to content creation are mega-prims. I know you have a proposed policy, or server-side half on the wiki.
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Oh. So there's no way of telling what hardware is running it?
[17:20]	Drake Bacon:	I'm wondering about the client, aka how users will create the megaprims.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	atm Balance is on sim3.aditi, which is a dual-cpu dual-core AMD Opteron
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure what class that is, but I think it is class 3 or class 4
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	OK...
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	The policy on megaprims is...
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	(1) megaprims with sides > 256 will be clamped to 256 on those sides
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Well at least its not a class 5 - that would be very bad news
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	(2) nothing else has changed
[17:21]	Drake Bacon:	Andrew, I know that.
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	so... no new ways to create megaprims
[17:22]	Drake Bacon:	That's on the wiki.
[17:22]	Seven Shikami:	So megaprim prisms are fine? Good for buildings.
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	but if you've got them, then we'll permit them
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	however, if you use them for griefing we'll remove them
[17:22]	Drake Bacon:	So no clients can create megaprims in the future?
[17:22]	Seven Shikami:	Absolutely.
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	we don't encourage the use of megaprims
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	however... if you have legit content that has megaprims (especially if it is on a private estate) we aren't going to deploy code that will nerf them
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	Do megaprims in h4 (server) have correct clearance for cutoputs and holes?
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	cutouts...
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	correct clearance? Is that a problem in Havok1?
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	The main problem
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I do not know. I would suspect nothing has changed, so the problem probably still exists.
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	(Outside of having them stuck over your property :)
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	The next step in my megaprim plan is to allow parcel owners to move prims that overlap their land
[17:24]	Drake Bacon:	Maybe I should reword my question. Will the 10m-on-a-side limit be raised?
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect I could do most of that work in about one or two weeks
[17:25]	Seven Shikami:	Glah, cable modem lockup.
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	overlapping on region boundaries is the harder part of that puzzle
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm not going to start that project until Havok4 is "done".
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	I can't... those capailities require Havok4
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	capabilities
[17:26]	Seven Shikami:	If you don't mind a topic switch, how closely are you going to have H4 emulate H1's behavior?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	We're trying to get it close
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	there are some unavoidable differences
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	and a few features have been... redone, and will be different because we've reimplemented some algorithm
[17:27]	Seven Shikami:	Out of total self interest, it's because a skeeball style game of mine is pretty wonky on H4 right now, so I'm wondering how much tweaking is left to do.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	such as sitting avatars -- subtle differences there
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	but hopefully for the better
[17:28]	Seven Shikami:	If it helps a ball rolling down the groove of a hollow cut prism was curveballing on me.
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	How does your skeeball work?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	That is what features does it rely on?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Vehicles? Collision rebounds?
[17:28]	Seven Shikami:	Basically, it rezzes a ball with a velocity to roll it down the hollow center of a prism, it hits an inclined prism for the ramp, arcs, lands in a hoop (hollow cylinder)
[17:29]	Seven Shikami:	The scripts all work fine but the bump off the ramp is really wild at the moment when given the same physical parameters.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, and the brokenness is?
[17:29]	Seven Shikami:	Sometimes it pops straight in the air, sometimes it slams hard to the left, etc. I found if I cut the velocity by 66% it gets closer to H1 but is still slightly twitchy.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[17:29]	Seven Shikami:	I can give you a copy of it if you want to check for bugs.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	sure
[17:30]	Seven Shikami gave you Skeeball Machine.
[17:30]	Seven Shikami:	I managed to make a H4 friendly one by using a flat prism (no hollow cut, no sidewalls) and decreasing the velocity of the throw, but it's still a little wobbly.
[17:30]	Seven Shikami:	Sooo... no diea how to report a bug that's probably a LOT of weird factors :)
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, for a bug like that we pretty much need the object itself on hand to watch
[17:31]	Seven Shikami:	I've got one in the sandbox in the betagrid right now, and that one's the H1 friendly version I just gave ya. Sorry, I won't take up more office hour time :)
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Makbe make a really simple gadget that demos the difference between H1 and H4 sims?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know how easy it will be to fix. The details of collisions have changed in Havok4
[17:31]	Seven Shikami:	Yeah, I've been trying to strip it down to make a reproducable error.
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	No worries Seven. The subject matter is open. I don't really have much of an agenda to get through myself
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	so the hour goes best when there are questions
[17:32]	Drake Bacon:	If I can return back to megaprims for just a minute, as I feel my question isn't being answered quite right.
[17:32]	Seven Shikami:	Best guess I have is the hollow cut (a U shape) has a physics bug... when I took that aspect away it worked, it just needed slower throws liekly due to new roll physics.
[17:33]	Seven Shikami:	Yah, back to megaprims.
[17:33]	Drake Bacon:	And I apologize for asking this over and over.
[17:33]	Drake Bacon:	On the client, once Havok 4 is live on all of the grid, will the 10m per side limit be raised? Or will that policy stay?
[17:33]	Simon Linden:	Seven - yes, we've found some problems with the shape used for collisions, especially with cut objects
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	The 10m per side limit will not be raised in Havok4.
[17:34]	Seven Shikami:	Goody, I'm not just imagining it. :)
[17:34]	Drake Bacon:	Okay. As is, there's been a good cry out for at least a doubling.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	We have Sidewinder?
[17:34]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi andrew
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	News to me I guess.
[17:35]	Sidewinder Linden:	sorry i'm not sure what question you were asking of me?
[17:35]	Drake Bacon:	Folks really want to cut down prim usage on their plots, and even when building my own brewpub in Furnation Vista, I think I can kill half the building's primcount.
[17:35]	Drake Bacon:	But this has been on the SL Blog and the forums.
[17:35]	Seven Shikami:	That's the primary legit use of megaprims; keeping primcounts down on large building walls. Griefing has to be handled, of course, but any tweaks to allow for simple legit uses like that are welcome.
[17:36]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew has i think said that he favors allowing megaprims up to 256x256, but that would be by using existing ones, and perhaps copying them, but not adding creating them to the toolset, right?
[17:36]	Drake Bacon:	Even limited useage, a 20m-per-side, would be good.
[17:36]	Sidewinder Linden:	please correct me if i'm wrong - this is i think the snapshot summary of the previous proposals?
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I know people have been asking for increased prim sizes. However those will not be forthcoming until the "encroachment problem" has been fixed.
[17:36]	Seven Shikami:	Or some power of 2 (32x32).
[17:36]	Drake Bacon:	Yes. I am summarising it.
[17:36]	Seven Shikami:	Yeah, understandably there are a lot of underlying technical issues. Just hoping that once H4's rolling it can be looked into.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Once Havok4 is done I'll start working on solving the encroachment problem.
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Er... more correctly, "I'll try to start working on the encroachment problem."
[17:38]	Seven Shikami:	Nicely couched :)
[17:38]	Drake Bacon:	And once a policy on encroachment is in place, then a possible bump in the prim size limits. Even that would be good news.
[17:38]	Drake Bacon:	It wasn't quite clear in the various posts.
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	My plan is... once the encroachment problem is fixed, then you can have as large of megaprim as you like, as long as it fits on your parcel, and doesn't have any sides larger than 256.
[17:39]	Drake Bacon:	And creation in the client would allow for those larger prims?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	yes
[17:40]	Seven Shikami:	T'would be lovely.
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	just so we're clear on this though... existing megaprims <=256m per side would not be nerfed by the initial havok4 simulators right?
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	however... there is a question that has not yet been answered...
[17:40]	Drake Bacon:	Oh?
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	We may need to force objects above some size to be "static" (cannot enable "physics")
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	be aware that if you legitimize these megaprims, then all the complaints about the clearance bugs become legitimate.
[17:41]	Drake Bacon:	There's been some discussion about them in the forums and SL blog responces.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	but any limits there will depend on how bad such dynamic object's hit the physics engine
[17:41]	Seven Shikami:	That sounds reasonable to me.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	we'll have to test them out
[17:41]	Seven Shikami:	As noted the best use of megaprims is to cut down on prim counts, not to make 50x50 giant rubber balls.
[17:41]	Drake Bacon:	Some suggestions involve making anything over 64M phsyics disabled and 128m phantom.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto, those clearance bugs would become legit, but not until then.
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	sure Drake. The cuttoff is not clear.
[17:42]	Drake Bacon:	But there's a lot of discussion.
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	There is another problem with megaprims...
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	Its a problem
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	they exacerbate the "non-collision over region boudaries" problem
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	so... we'd probably have to fix that pretty soon around the time we tried to liberate megaprims
[17:43]	Kitto Flora:	and people will cut them and put the cut bits over borders
[17:44]	Drake Bacon:	I know one set that does cross sim boundaries. Furnation Prime and Furnation Alpha, a "stairway" to a "Luxor" or gathering mount crosses from Alpha to Prime (where the Luxor is located).
[17:44]	Drake Bacon:	At times, when Alpha's offline, bits stick out from Prime.
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, so we'd like to make objects collide, even when they overlap into the neighboring region.
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	Collide with megaprims?
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	collide with all objects across region boundaries
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	It is a bug we need to fix
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	Ohhh... Well its ashortcoming in the MG?
[17:46]	Drake Bacon:	I take it Megaprim physics (both static and physical) are rather buggy in Havok 1?
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to fix it after Havok4, probably after enabling object-parcel collision queries (required to fix the encroachment problem)
[17:47]	Kitto Flora:	Megaprim clearance is problem in H1
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know about many megaprim collision problems yet.
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	Seven - can you change permissions on your skeeball game so I can take a copy?
[17:48]	Seven Shikami:	Working on that now.
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	thanks
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Please explain - is a collision problem something different to the bounding box not being right?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, you should be able to take a copy anyway, if you really need to.
[17:48]	Seven Shikami:	I'm making a version that has no "wobble" on the throw (which you need to make it a game, not a testing tool :)
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I thought I would ask before showing off my amazing superpowers
[17:49]	Drake Bacon:	Next thing we'll know you'll need a Wii controller to play SL.
[17:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe or want to have one ;)
[17:49]	Josette Nightfire:	Wii controller wooohooo =)
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Seven, are you using uniform spheres for your skeeballs?
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	btw, Seven. On Havok4 things will probably work best if you use boxes instead of concave prims for the track
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	lots of boxes is better for the physics engine than concave parts.
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	That is also true for Havok1
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	There's also a risk the behavior will change if the sim slows down and can't do the same level-of-detail
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, which is the extra reason why boxes are better in Havok4
[17:52]	Drake Bacon:	I take it if LOD has to drop, everything acts like solid boxes?
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, region-wide at the moment. Which is problematic
[17:53]	Seven Shikami gave you Skeeball Machine (For Linden Testing).
[17:53]	Drake Bacon:	No way of making it down to the estate or deeded land at this time?
[17:53]	Seven Shikami:	Okay, I edited that one to be a more useful testing tool. Rez it and touch it for instructions and a thrower attachment. I included notes on the bug I'm experiencing and possible tweaks.
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Thanks Seven
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Humm - is that the bounding box? Changes to a box enclosing the whole object?
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Correct Drake. ATM the LOD system does not discriminate which objects to drop LOD
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	if the physics engine is lagging enough, it will kick in without prejudice
[17:54]	Seven Shikami:	Sorry for not paying attention to chat, I was editing. The balls that rez are set temporary, physical, and are basic one-prim spheres.
[17:55]	Seven Shikami:	The table is a path cut box in a U shape (which is liekly a major problem), the kicker ramp is a box tilted.
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	I consider these shortcomings fo the LOD system to be "bugs" of sorts -- we'll have to fix them, or reduce their impact before Havok4 is ready for everyone
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	however, we'll be looking for estate owners who are willing to work around these problems
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	hey folks - I have to run. Thanks for coming...
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	or who perhaps don't have content that is affected too much
[17:56]	Seven Shikami:	Thanks for having office hours.
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks simon - see you later
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Later Simon.
[17:56]	Seven Shikami:	Laters!
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I think my bluetooth keyboard is finally losing its batteries
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye
[17:57]	Drake Bacon:	I'd suggest maybe splitting the sim into "sub-sims"
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, does that LOD change mean that the track inside that box there, whould change to the enclosing box, in effect?
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	as a quick bit of background on the process, we will be rolling out havok4 slowly, in clusters of regions, and not rolling it "across the whole Second Life system in one shot" as we have with some other updates
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Drake, you mean to partition the content and have the LOD system discriminate based on location?
[17:58]	Drake Bacon:	Like 128m or other power of 2 sided squares, so the LOD drop is only affected there.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we've considered that to some degree.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	ATM we are punting the problem as we try to fix other stuff, but we'll have to revisit that soon.
[17:58]	Drake Bacon nods
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, does that LOD change mean that the track inside that box there, whould change to the enclosing box, in effect?
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 has a system of "simulation islands". It may be possible to have the LOD system use the simulation islands to discriminate
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	yes, at the moment there are only two LOD's for objects... true shape and box
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	except for implicit spheres, which remain spheres
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	There are some problems with Havok's "convex hull" utilities, so we aren't using those yet
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	OK. Well .. that sure would have some impact for helicals...
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	however the code does not have to be changed much to accomodate them
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto. Also consider the case of a house made of hollow cylinders
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Er - doorways...
[18:01]	Seven Shikami:	I've had houses like that.
[18:01]	Drake Bacon:	Treehouses.
[18:01]	Seven Shikami:	You do some crazy things when trying to make a full house on a 512 plot. :)
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Right. That is why the LOD system will be needing some work.
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	I've been thinking about how to solve some of the problems, but have not yet started to try them.
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	When this LOD change kicks in, is it visible in client/rendering/infodisplays/BBs ?
[18:03]	Drake Bacon:	Lets hope all these problems get fixed before Havok 6 comes out. :)
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	No, it is not visible, however it kicks in around 0.2 time dilation right now
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Oh
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Only down at 0.2?
[18:04]	Seven Shikami:	I'm guessing "no", but is H4 related to the alpha texture z-sort stacking bug?
[18:04]	Kitto Flora:	So 0.3 to 1.0 is ok?
[18:04]	Drake Bacon:	You should see the parties that get thrown in Furnation Vista.
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	No H4 is not related to z-sort problems. Those are client-only.
[18:04]	Seven Shikami:	Curses. Well, was worth a shot :)
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, yes I think > 0.2 is ok.
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	OK - not a problem for me then
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	As the train quits at <0.8
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	The LOD system does kick in on a per-object level if that object is particulary bad, even if the time dilation does not drop to 0.2
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	however, that is just a temporary per-object LOD change
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	And at 0.2 you cant really walk so wont notice that the door is gone :)
[18:06]	Seven Shikami:	I gotta go, guys; thanks for the office hours and if you have any questions about the skeeball test model just IM me. I'll respond after the weekend. I appreciate all the hard work you're doing!
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to get going soon too.
[18:06]	Drake Bacon:	Yep, it looks like the office hours are going over.
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming Seven.
[18:06]	Drake Bacon:	I have no other questions at this time.
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Alright Drake.
[18:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks drake, kitto
[18:07]	Kitto Flora:	TY guys
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Drake, if you write an article, also provide a link to the meeting transcripts, ok?
[18:07]	Kitto Flora:	I may try more on the weekend on H4
[18:07]	Kitto Flora:	if its up :)
[18:07]	Drake Bacon:	Same here. Oh!
[18:07]	Drake Bacon:	Will the Havok 4 client be updated to the latest production version?
[18:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	yes, but not necessarily right this moment - we'll keep it as current as needed for compatibility
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	We may update the client... it is currently close to production, but is not yet required.
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	That is, if you download and install it anew it should be rather up to date.
[18:09]	Drake Bacon:	Okay. I wasn't sure since the client on the main grid's 1.18.5 and the beta grid's 1.18.3
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	There are rumors (internally) that there are bugs with it (bad passwords being reported), however I haven't heard any external reports of problems.
[18:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	i think the one having problems is not posted to the web (the beta client that is)
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	The latest windlige on radeon just crashed PC once for me
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	We could make it a required update, but chose not to, since the 1.18.3 client still worked fine.
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	And attempt 2 corrupted the screen
[18:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	since the havok4 code is server-side, there is far less implication of having a fully up to date client...
[18:10]	Drake Bacon:	Okay.
[18:10]	Kitto Flora:	Right now its ok on Nvidia
[18:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	although we try to keep it pretty close
[18:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	the physics work and behaviors are in the server code, and that is really what is being tested when you go to the havok4 preview
[18:10]	Drake Bacon:	I'd have to see if Windlight's working in Linux. I know ATI/AMD cards are having driver issues that affect Linux as a whole.
[18:10]	Drake Bacon:	Thankfully I buy NVidia.
[18:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	the beta client provides an easy way to go to that grid without tinkering
[18:11]	Kitto Flora:	And thats good :)
[18:11]	Andrew Linden:	ok see you all later
[18:11]	Drake Bacon:	Thanks for the time. I'll be mucking about the beta tomorrow and Saturday.
[18:11]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye
[18:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	see you andrew - thanks
[18:12]	Kitto Flora:	andrew, Sidewinder