User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2010-03-25

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[11:01] Latif Khalifa: look, a jelly fish :P
[11:01] Enkidu Linden: hey guys!
[11:01] Latif Khalifa: hello Enkidu
[11:01] Enkidu Linden: i wonder what sitting will look like
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:02] lonetorus Habilis: heyas
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: keep you skirt down haha
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: hello lone
[11:02] Enkidu Linden: looks like i ate an old man for lunch
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: hi morg
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: haha
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Enki! Gratz on new OH :-)
[11:03] Enkidu Linden: thanksyou!
[11:03] Enkidu Linden: er yeah
[11:03] Enkidu Linden: i'm pumped
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Latif, Sai, lone. Can't see anyone else yet
[11:04] lonetorus Habilis: hey morg
[11:04] lonetorus Habilis: and my avie has devolved XD
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: are you going to end up as amoeba?
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, Enki belongs to Malbers' family now :P
[11:05] Enkidu Linden: ooooh, that'd make a great av
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Latha
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Ghengis!
[11:05] Latif Khalifa: hey skills :)
[11:06] Enkidu Linden: ok, i think we've waited long enough
[11:06] Skills Hak: hallo :D
[11:06] Enkidu Linden: welcome to my office hours!
[11:06] Ghengis Linden: Hello Morgaine
[11:06] lonetorus Habilis: yeah ill probably continue to devolve untill im no longer mistaken for a regular resident, and instead put squarely in the category of griffer, at least then my customers will leave me alone
[11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Thank you Enki! May they work well :-)
[11:06] Morgaine Dinova: lone: lol
[11:06] Enkidu Linden: Which generous bequeathed his time slot and parcel to me
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tech, Skills
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Dzon
[11:07] Techwolf Lupindo smiels
[11:07] Enkidu Linden: but, i'm not Which!
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova tries not to leave anyone out :-)
[11:07] Enkidu Linden: so we won't be able to talk about the same domain
[11:08] lonetorus Habilis: what is your domain?
[11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Enki: it's your playpen, you choose the subject matter :-)
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: i should say for the record that i'll be posting transcripts to the wiki
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: ok
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: my domain is web
[11:08] Dzonatas Sol waves hi
[11:08] lonetorus Habilis: can i ask a question regarding web?
[11:09] Enkidu Linden: i work in a small group of web engineers at linden who focus on infrastructure issues
[11:09] Enkidu Linden: sure
[11:09] lonetorus Habilis: will we see unified logins across the LL web pages like blog, xstreet etc, so we only have to login once
[11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Web has quite a useful amount of relevance to interop, I think I'll find something that interests me in your area too.
[11:09] lonetorus Habilis: and also, why is the login procedure so slow
[11:10] Enkidu Linden: about slowness, i do not know
[11:10] Latha Serevi: but Morgaine, why is it that every time I say "3d web" your head explodes?
[11:10] Enkidu Linden: i wish it were faster too
[11:10] Enkidu Linden: about unified login: yeah, i think that's something everyone wants and i would expect us to be there eventually
[11:11] lonetorus Habilis: i noticed lots of new secure-XXweb servers, but still its painfully slow
[11:11] Techwolf Lupindo: Flash is not up to the task of a 3D world.
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: only because webbie thinking narrows down options. Webbies for example can't seem to understand that TCP can be used as a bidirectional stream. They have the classic "one hammer toolkit".
[11:11] lonetorus Habilis: the login part that is
[11:11] Dzonatas Sol points to "compiz" when someone says "3d web"
[11:12] lonetorus Habilis: i would not mind a slow login, if only i had to do it just once per session
[11:12] Latha Serevi: Well said, Morgaine, fair enough. Maybe AJAX will start getting people thinking a little more bidirectionally?
[11:12] Enkidu Linden: logging in just once would be super cool, i agree
[11:13] Morgaine Dinova: Websockets helps a bit, and there's other improvements around too, think HYBI is one, and Google have another.
[11:13] Latha Serevi: On a slightly different topic, I'm very excited at the opportunity for web-in-SL mashups and crazy social networking hacks and stuff, that Shared Media will open up.
[11:13] Latif Khalifa: enkidu, who gets to decide about what web features are we going to get? with facebook connect, twitter's @everywhere, second life is lagging behind on providing an identity service that could be used to develop a web ecosystem around second life
[11:13] Enkidu Linden: morgaine: one of my favorite things about REST is that it makes the statement: "hey, we already have a protocol for this. stop re-inventing the wheel on top of other wheels!"
[11:13] lonetorus Habilis: enkidu, whats the thing that has excited you the most in the last week?
[11:14] Dzonatas Sol: Through SNOW-375, it's possible now to control the viewer from AJAX
[11:14] HTTP based API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: Enkidu: you missed a VERY important subphrase: "when the application domain matches that for which REST was defined".
[11:15] Dzonatas Sol: However, I would like see the ability to toggle headless mode
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: latif: in some respects we all decide, because if something seems really important, we can evangelize individually
[11:16] Latif Khalifa: i hope we can bribe you to evangelise having SL provide identity in form of openide, oauth or similar service
[11:16] Latif Khalifa: :P
[11:16] Latif Khalifa: it's sorely needed for a variety of services
[11:16] Enkidu Linden: lonetorus: this week, actually, i gave a short, in-person tour of second life to a friend who was visiting
[11:17] Morgaine Dinova: Enkidu: Fielding didn't define REST as a general purpose development paradigm. He defined it through analysis of what makes the Web work well. It's only webbies with single-hammer toolkits that then take the next step that Fielding did NOT suggest, and try to express everything in humanity in terms of web solutions.
[11:17] Enkidu Linden: it's kind of hard to get in world and cruise around, seeing the sights, chatting with residents, and so on, and not be excited
[11:17] Enkidu Linden: margaine: true true
[11:18] lonetorus Habilis: well, first you have to find the residents
[11:18] Enkidu Linden: er, morgaine. plz forgive
[11:18] lonetorus Habilis: and im not talking of the crowd that hangs at waterhead
[11:19] lonetorus Habilis: so, what did your friend think?
[11:19] Enkidu Linden: she was pretty excited too!
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: I liked Latif's call there. Enki, are you an OpenID/OAuth supporter in your web interests?
[11:21] Enkidu Linden: i took her to some of the places on the destination guide, and she was very impressed. she asked if i or my company made those places, and i said that residents did, and i think her mind blew up
[11:22] Enkidu Linden: yes, i support openid and oauth
[11:22] Morgaine Dinova: o/
[11:22] Latif Khalifa: any chance of having sl act as oauth provider?
[11:23] Morgaine Dinova: And OpenID Relying Party
[11:23] Enkidu Linden: not sure, but i know it'd be pretty awesome to use my SL identity to start a bitbucket or github account
[11:24] Latif Khalifa: among other things
[11:24] Latif Khalifa: for developers of web based systems
[11:24] Enkidu Linden: lots of other things
[11:24] Morgaine Dinova: I want to login here using my Google ID. Just from a simple personal standpoint, I'm bored silly supplying my credentials to you.
[11:25] Enkidu Linden: that would also be excellent
[11:25] Latif Khalifa: it would be awesome say to have ability to say "click here to recieve our demo object in world", which would then authenticate you against sl oauth/open id, and deliver things in world without having to reveal any credentials to said site
[11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Yup
[11:26] Dzonatas Sol: I could add another REST resource to SNOW-375 to allow OpenID logins, yet I haven't decided how to finalize such a method
[11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Dzon++
[11:26] Dzonatas Sol: namely, the main password
[11:26] Dzonatas Sol: no word on webkey
[11:27] Enkidu Linden: so, hey, i'd like you all to meet Ghengis Linden
[11:27] Latif Khalifa: my main interest is to allow development of web services geared specifically toward SL residents, I think there would be a wide variety of those if we didn't have to go around creating accounts on them
[11:27] Latif Khalifa: Hello Ghengis
[11:27] lonetorus Habilis: hellos ghengis
[11:27] Ghengis Linden: Hi all
[11:28] Morgaine Dinova: How's things, Ghengis?
[11:28] Dzonatas Sol: Hi!
[11:28] lonetorus Habilis: 70 days old :D
[11:28] lonetorus Habilis: they let you out early
[11:28] Techwolf Lupindo: openid would make media on a prim even more interactive.
[11:28] Morgaine Dinova: What's your main area of interest, Ghengis?
[11:28] Enkidu Linden: ghengis works in my group
[11:28] Ghengis Linden: Things are going great thank you. Great to hear all these ideas
[11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!
[11:28] Latha Serevi: Has anybody delved deeply enough into OAuth and/or OpenID to tell if they are general enough for interop purposes, or if they've baked in assumptions like "human at a web browser wishes to authenticate to a website, all interaction will be via http, and it is reasonable to require that a human action be required once per site" ?
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: John Hurliman is building OpenID+OAuth into VWRAP (it's in Cable Beach, and he's evolving CB to "become VWRAP".
[11:30] Latif Khalifa: cable beach is dead, long live Simian Grid :P
[11:30] Morgaine Dinova: So the simple answer is Yes, good enough for interop :-)
[11:30] Enkidu Linden: cool cool
[11:31] xstorm Radek: may i ask if there is a way to have data updated to a avatar to see if the user is still online or not ?? this way cutting down all the stuck avatars and phantom avatars ?
[11:31] Enkidu Linden: hey storrs!
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: I didn't think about it before, but this ties into Enkidu's web work. When people's inventories can be distributed all over the place in VWRAP, any web service you provide will need to access the remotely authenticated services.
[11:32] Enkidu Linden: xstorm: not my area at all
[11:32] Storrs Linden: hi!
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Storrs!
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Is Storrs also from your team, Enki?
[11:33] xstorm Radek: yes but the web can be used to kick a avatar inworld off if it did get stuck
[11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya xstorm :-)
[11:33] Latif Khalifa: heh skills, i see the old group title exploit is back :P
[11:33] Skills Hak: it was never gone
[11:33] xstorm Radek: all the user will have to do is log on to the linden lab web site and click a button to remove it
[11:34] Skills Hak: you just cant make new ones
[11:34] xstorm Radek: hi Morgaine :-)
[11:34] Latif Khalifa: ah, i thought they cleaned up the old ones once they started sanitizing the input
[11:35] Enkidu Linden: storrs is definitely on my team
[11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Do you play Guild Wars, Storrs? You av looks vaguely like an earth elemental :-)
[11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!
[11:35] Storrs Linden is actually furiously trying to undermine enkidu. ;)
[11:35] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: :)
[11:36] xstorm Radek: ?? Enkidu you have a Team is it gold or blue ?
[11:36] Skills Hak: oh lone i have a custom job
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: i like blue
[11:36] Skills Hak: can you make me a sculpted tinfoil hat ?
[11:36] lonetorus Habilis: YES?
[11:37] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:37] Skills Hak: :D
[11:37] xstorm Radek: :-) 2003
[11:37] Skills Hak: a really cool one
[11:37] lonetorus Habilis: yes, if you can give me specularity map
[11:37] Skills Hak: o/
[11:37] Storrs Linden: Morgaine, I don't play Guild Wars, but this av is from a set of elementals (air, fire, water)
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: :-)
[11:38] lonetorus Habilis: and enkidu is 99.8% water
[11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah! <grin>
[11:38] lonetorus Habilis: so we have the alphabet lindens
[11:38] lonetorus Habilis: now the elemental ones
[11:38] Latif Khalifa: very little substance you say, eh? :P
[11:39] Enkidu Linden: and 0.2% charm
[11:39] Latif Khalifa: :D
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Nice combination :-)
[11:40] Dzonatas Sol: Just need BeachBall Linden... one you can toss and sit on
[11:40] Dzonatas Sol: =p
[11:40] xstorm Radek: Enkidu can not on the user account website there not be a button that a person can use to kick a stuck avatar off plus having a way to look at ones inventory from a website may be good too
[11:40] Latif Khalifa: and pay people
[11:41] xstorm Radek: such as a way to print a list
[11:41] Enkidu Linden: i can't really answer the first question--i don't know anything about how avs get stuck or unstuck
[11:41] Morgaine Dinova: Enkidu: what kinds of Web topics might you be focussing on in the future? Today seems to be about federated authentication I guess.
[11:42] Enkidu Linden: i agree that being able to see inventory, pay people, that kind of stuff would be great to do over the web
[11:42] lonetorus Habilis: xstorm, but ppl need a incentive to going premium, so they can use live chat support to fix stuck avies
[11:42] Morgaine Dinova: (I meant, in the OH)
[11:43] Enkidu Linden: preferrably starting with an api for those things
[11:43] xstorm Radek: i have a prem account do not bother with that new live chat support they do not read what you ask or just do not understand
[11:44] xstorm Radek: i wish they put back the real linden lab suppot staff again
[11:44] lonetorus Habilis: (this is the story of how i became premum, was stuck at qarls office after OH, and ended up going premium, 3 min later jason linden swooped in from a place unseen and unstuck my avie)
[11:44] Skills Hak: hmm they are pretty helpful imo
[11:44] lonetorus Habilis: yes, depends what you ask
[11:44] Morgaine Dinova: The only time I ever tried to use support, they sent me the SL FAQ. They could have at least bothered to check that I've been here N years already.
[11:45] Skills Hak: when i go live chat there's always a linden though, never had one of the support guys
[11:45] xstorm Radek: then im getting stuck with crapy live chat support ontyne over in India it seems like
[11:45] lonetorus Habilis: skills, they has you flagged i tell ya
[11:45] Skills Hak: ohnoez
[11:45] Enkidu Linden: morgaine: we can talk about anything you like! if we stay in the realm of web standards, tech, languages, etc, you'll hear "i don't know" from me less
[11:45] Enkidu Linden: but i like all sorts of other things
[11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Enkidu: coolness :-)
[11:46] xstorm Radek: im working on a letter about 3 pages about how poor live chat support has gotten with there ontyne group
[11:46] Latif Khalifa: lone, speakin of the linden support brilliance, did you ever resolve the problem of offline IMs?
[11:47] lonetorus Habilis: no, i dont think andrew actually looked at it
[11:47] Enkidu Linden: what do you guys think about changing this parcel a bit?
[11:47] lonetorus Habilis: but i didnt bug him after that one oh
[11:47] Skills Hak: yes could use a change :D
[11:47] lonetorus Habilis: but it has the best bamboo in all of sl
[11:47] xstorm Radek: i like this place
[11:48] Latif Khalifa wonders what enkidu will make it into :P
[11:48] Skills Hak: just the ground is a bit steep
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: i like the bamboo too
[11:48] lonetorus Habilis: latif, lower terrain? ;)
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: i heard someone hand-crafted the bamboo
[11:49] Enkidu Linden: if only i could find that person and talk them into making other custom objects for me
[11:49] Dzonatas Sol listens in but continues to work on https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dzonatas_Sol/SNOW-375_Resources
[11:49] lonetorus Habilis: hmm, i made some new bamboo, that is a but less primmy
[11:49] Enkidu Linden: ;)
[11:49] xstorm Radek: Enkidu is there not a way to have it so prem accounts can have a way to viewe there inventory from a website ?
[11:49] lonetorus Habilis: and i made furniture for kate linden
[11:49] Storrs Linden has to scoot.
[11:50] xstorm Radek: wow i like that
[11:50] Enkidu Linden: xstorm: seems like something we could do
[11:50] xstorm Radek: you best hide it some copybotter will sale it on xstreet
[11:51] lonetorus Habilis: hehehe
[11:51] xstorm Radek: i had it happen to me and some people i know
[11:51] Enkidu Linden: speaking of xstreet, how are you guys enjoying purchasing there now that you don't have to use the atm thingies?
[11:52] Techwolf Lupindo: I don't use xstreet.
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: it's a cool feature
[11:52] lonetorus Habilis: much better, soon i can ditch my automated pick pocket
[11:52] xstorm Radek: i do not like xstreet do to how there seems to be no rules
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: will be even cooler when balances are merged altogether
[11:52] lonetorus Habilis: once the accounts merge
[11:52] lonetorus Habilis: currently i curl my way in and empty xstreet account once every 15 min
[11:52] CPU Core: the atms wereadding a bit of realism so i liked them
[11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Enki: I'm in two minds about change. Which's place was always rather laggy compared to other offices, so yes. But I rather like the idea of ex-Linden places becoming places of historical note, and the bamboo grove is nice for that.
[11:53] xstorm Radek: first people do not need to own land to sale on xstreet
[11:53] Techwolf Lupindo: xstreet searves at a good product finder and then go shop in world.
[11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Can someone stop annoying us with a badly set up AO, please?
[11:53] xstorm Radek: plus they can sale items they did not make on xstreet
[11:54] Latif Khalifa: Enkidu, do you work on xstreet too?
[11:54] Morgaine Dinova: Error messages should be made *ON* by default in the viewer.
[11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwide people don't see the mess they're making.
[11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwise*
[11:55] lonetorus Habilis: yeh
[11:55] xstorm Radek: and it seems i just made pink linden pissed off at me when i started to point out all the bad stuff with xstreet
[11:55] lonetorus Habilis: xstorm, so, busonessses change hands in sl too
[11:55] lonetorus Habilis: businesses
[11:55] CPU Core: where do you guys find this office hour.. i dont see it on the office hour hud.. seems out of date
[11:55] lonetorus Habilis: cpu, its wich's slot
[11:55] Enkidu Linden: techwolf: yeah, i used to use xstreet that way too. but i just used it to buy this av without using an atm, and that was a nice change
[11:55] CPU Core: oh
[11:56] Morgaine Dinova: xstorm: that's progress, if you can make Pink pissed off -- means she understood something
[11:56] CPU Core: thanx
[11:56] Latif Khalifa: Pink is just pissed of in gerenal ;)
[11:56] lonetorus Habilis: morg, you sound more bitter than usual
[11:56] Skills Hak: xstreet is a mess >.>
[11:57] Morgaine Dinova: I like Linden techies, got no time for the Customer Relations department :-)
[11:57] xstorm Radek: so Enkidu do you think its right that some one can put down a xstreet box in a sandbox and use a ALT to sale copybotted items ?
[11:57] lonetorus Habilis: its great fun if you are not trying to find something specific ;)
[11:57] Enkidu Linden: latif: only in the most marginal way.
[11:57] Techwolf Lupindo: Customer relations department could use some more re-training.
[11:57] Skills Hak: it needs more moderation
[11:58] lonetorus Habilis: xstorm, cant you still borrow server space at the xstreet sim?
[11:58] xstorm Radek: i know that Techwolf they told me to abandon my sim to fix a group error one time lol
[11:59] Skills Hak: wonder what else you can do with the boxes
[11:59] Techwolf Lupindo: When filling out a ticket, there is a checkbox where if customer checked the wiki/support web page. Then customer recieved canned letter back saying the same thing as the wiki, that drives paying customers away, not retain them.
[12:00] Skills Hak: i heard the script has been "opensourced" by someone
[12:00] Skills Hak: few months ago
[12:00] xstorm Radek: then one of tech support told me that you can not own mainland its just rented and we are not permited to ask for support for it
[12:00] xstorm Radek: lol
[12:01] Enkidu Linden: looks like we're at the hour
[12:01] lonetorus Habilis: skills, yeah i imagined that i had a breif look at it back then, not that exciting
[12:01] Enkidu Linden: any last minute things?
[12:01] xstorm Radek: so what with the poor new support are they reading a fake wiki ?
[12:01] Morgaine Dinova: CS has problems. Probably not fair to bash Enki about them though. Although hopefully the general discontent gets fed back.
[12:01] lonetorus Habilis: faster unified logins!!!11
[12:01] xstorm Radek: no im not
[12:01] xstorm Radek: :-)
[12:01] xstorm Radek: i like Enkidu :-)
[12:02] Enkidu Linden: it's my jelly
[12:02] Enkidu Linden: everyone loves the jelly
[12:02] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[12:02] xstorm Radek: i do not know Ghengis at all must be new
[12:02] Latif Khalifa: so Enkidu, are you going to keep this OH as a regular thing?
[12:02] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Enkidu, I think this could be a very interesting OH :-)
[12:03] xstorm Radek: OMG!! i love that they look real
[12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hopefully we can talk about some technical things though. At least occasionally.
[12:03] Enkidu Linden: yes. i'm going to try to hold them weekly, same time and place as which
[12:03] xstorm Radek: great work skills
[12:04] Ghengis Linden: very nice
[12:04] xstorm Radek: Skills are they temp rez ?
[12:04] Skills Hak: yes >:/
[12:04] Skills Hak: laggy as hell
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Enkidu has had offspring!!!
[12:04] xstorm Radek: great work i do not see and timing flash
[12:05] Enkidu Linden: those are great!
[12:05] Latif Khalifa: it's bring you spawn to work day
[12:05] Enkidu Linden: i feel at home
[12:05] Latif Khalifa: :P
[12:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[12:05] lonetorus Habilis: lol latif
[12:05] xstorm Radek: Skills i may know a way to cut down on the lag
[12:05] Skills Hak: i used to have them at insilico but had to take them out cause of lag
[12:06] xstorm Radek: i do not think the lag is from just them
[12:06] Enkidu Linden: well, i've got to head off
[12:06] xstorm Radek: they seem to have very little lag
[12:06] lonetorus Habilis: they has lots of lexy flexy laggggs
[12:06] Latif Khalifa: rezzig objects in world is very tough on sims
[12:06] Enkidu Linden: thanks everyone for stopping by!
[12:06] lonetorus Habilis: enkido, ty for having us, and see ya next week
[12:06] Latif Khalifa: thak you Enkidu for your time
[12:06] Ghengis Linden: I'm off too. Good meeting you all.
[12:06] Skills Hak: see you guys
[12:07] Latif Khalifa: take care Ghengis
[12:07] CPU Core: bye
[12:07] Enkidu Linden: see you next week
[12:07] xstorm Radek: thank you Enkidu a honor

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