User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-06-29

Transcript

[07:23]	Ardy Lay:	That doesn't look right at all in this viewer.
[07:23]	Latif Khalifa:	hello :)
[07:23]	Latif Khalifa:	what?
[07:24]	Ardy Lay:	The stairs look really weird in V2.1
[07:24]	Latif Khalifa:	it's 1 oblong sculptie
[07:25]	Ardy Lay:	I have been using Snowglobe 1.x for so long I keep finding stuff that looks odd in V2.
[07:26]	Latif Khalifa:	i still cannot stand 2.x ui ;)
[07:26]	Ardy Lay:	The grapes here look different too.
[07:29]	Ardy Lay:	Short patch: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-652  :-)
[07:29]	Oz Linden:	Hi all...
[07:29]	Ardy Lay:	Hello Oz.
[07:29]	Dale Glass:	hi Oz
[07:30]	Latif Khalifa:	hey oz
[07:31]	Oz Linden:	In what way to the grapes look odd? (I assume you mean the ones overhead... there are also some that fall occasionally)
[07:31]	Oz Linden:	Welcome, Morgaine
[07:31]	Ardy Lay:	Just different than the way they rendered in SG1.4.
[07:31]	Dale Glass:	hi Morgaine
[07:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Oz, Ardy, Dale
[07:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi latif
[07:32]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[07:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello! :)
[07:32]	Ardy Lay:	I think the way alpha blending intereacts with draw order has changed a little.
[07:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Tillie :-)
[07:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	I feel overdressed
[07:32]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[07:33]	Latif Khalifa:	baking fail?
[07:33]	Latif Khalifa:	Tillie, are you clothes not showing on purpose?
[07:33]	Latif Khalifa:	ah, now they're thre
[07:33]	Tillie Ariantho:	Wearing a whitish dress ..
[07:33]	Latif Khalifa:	was temp fail ;)
[07:33]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Aimee
[07:34]	Aimee Linden:	hi :)
[07:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	I thought it was going to set a rather interesting new fashion for Linden OHs :-)
[07:34]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[07:34]	Tillie Ariantho:	^^
[07:34]	Ardy Lay:	Hi
[07:34]	Oz Linden:	Anyone have a topic that they are burning to discuss? I only have a fairly small one that I suspect will be not very controversial, and that's not much fun :-)
[07:34]	Kopilo Hallard:	unmasking urls?
[07:34]	Latif Khalifa:	Any news on opensourcing mono UThreadInjector?
[07:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	We only do controversial ones
[07:35]	Oz Linden:	Can you give us a longer statement of that issue Kopilo?
[07:35]	Kopilo Hallard:	if you wish, making it so users can see the urls of media content
[07:35]	Dale Glass:	Oh, and has the mysql benchmark been released?
[07:36]	Kopilo Hallard:	or rather, would that break the TPV rules even though they may be found in the debug file?
[07:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good point, Kopilo. Oz, the viewer is currently willfully perpetuating a delusion of secrecy of media URLs, and that should stop.
[07:36]	Dale Glass:	/me agrees
[07:36]	Oz Linden:	I believe that the mysql benchmark stuff is posted, but I have not seen a release email sent yet... I'll chase that down (thanks for the reminder)
[07:36]	Latif Khalifa:	Kopilo, you can always open link in external browser, and thus see the url
[07:36]	Dale Glass:	I grab URLs from the console pretty much on a daily basis
[07:37]	Latif Khalifa:	or you mean parcel media, and not "shared media"(tm)
[07:37]	Kopilo Hallard:	Latif - I just started writing an OS program to actively watch the debug log and open urls in an external browesr :p
[07:37]	Oz Linden:	What is the harm in allowing a content creator to keep a URL private?
[07:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: she can't.
[07:37]	Tillie Ariantho:	It doesnt work.
[07:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	You merely pretend that she can
[07:38]	Tillie Ariantho:	It only "seems" to work, and that's bad.
[07:38]	Latif Khalifa:	well let it be obscure, not a big deal ;)
[07:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	So you're giving them a false illusion of security.
[07:38]	Oz Linden:	ok... I know that viewer devs can get them... I'm talking about the normal case for non-programmers
[07:38]	Dale Glass:	IMO it's better to make it obvious that it can't be hidden, instead of misleading people who want to try to keep their address private
[07:38]	Kopilo Hallard:	even if you can hide the source URL why should content users not be able to see the source?
[07:38]	Aimee Linden:	I believe it was originally a deterrent to hide music stream URLs
[07:38]	Latif Khalifa:	/me wants to hear the status of openrourcing thing Babbage wanted to opensource
[07:38]	Dale Glass:	you don't need to be a viewer dev, you can grab it from the log, or with netstat
[07:38]	Aimee Linden:	so that people's streams didn't get overloaded
[07:39]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oz: All I need to do is look at the connection list in my firewall/virus scanner ... it lists all the open connections.
[07:39]	Ardy Lay:	Show Admin Options
[07:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: are non-techs second-class citizens? It's a pretty serious issue that you seem to defend false secrecy, and turn techies into some sort of outlaws.
[07:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a delusion. just get rid of it.
[07:40]	Oz Linden:	Let me ask the question a different way... forgetting about the obsessive needs of programmers like us to see how the inside of everthing works (which we can already do)... what purpose is served by adding UI complexity to allow someone to see the URL for say, a web ui projected on the face of a prim or the soundtrack for a parcel?
[07:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's incorrect. You ***ADDED*** complexity by obscuring the information deliberately.
[07:41]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[07:41]	Latif Khalifa:	i say this is such a non issue, most people don't care, and those that do care can easily find out
[07:41]	Oz Linden:	I don't claim that there is real security involved, and in fact I think that the builder interfaces should make that more clear than they do
[07:41]	Aimee Linden:	I'd agree with Latif
[07:42]	Kopilo Hallard:	however does it break the TPV if a third party viewer was to not mask media urls?
[07:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: since you know there is no secrecy possible when the platform design requires the client to open the connection, why are you perpetuating a myth of secrecy to those who don't know better then?
[07:42]	Tillie Ariantho:	You can protect your own stream by limiting connections. Anyone not doing that has a problem, anyway.
[07:42]	Oz Linden:	It only adds complexity for obsessives like us that care... I'm talking about the ordinary resident who just wants to experience SL
[07:42]	Dale Glass:	I'm on the side of not misleading people. Some people try to keep RL and SL private (like I do, for instance). I think it's important to make it clear what exposes yourself and what doesn't
[07:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: it's OK to dellude "ordinary SL users"?
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	I'm not advocating delucing anyone
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	deluding
[07:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	You know very well what you're doing is indefensible, morally.
[07:43]	Latif Khalifa:	/me remembers months of discussion about showing texture UUID on the texture preview
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	I'm saying that providing a way to expose a media url means adding complexity to the UI...
[07:44]	Latif Khalifa:	those discussions are always futule and pointless
[07:44]	Kopilo Hallard:	anyway
[07:44]	Kopilo Hallard:	question
[07:44]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oz: the problem is: people who wanna stream, think they are secure, because they have a button "hide stream" ... but they are not. if they KNOW its not hidden/secure, they might go ask someone how to make it secure.
[07:44]	Kopilo Hallard:	does it break the TPV liecense or not?
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	I don't accept that there is a moral imperative to make all information available (as big a fan of Shockwave Rider as I am)
[07:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: wrong. REMOVING your "turn URL into asterisks" code would reduce viewer complexity, not increase it.
[07:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	And it would be honest.
[07:45]	Oz Linden:	How many times do I have to say that I think it should be clear to those who are setting URLs on things that those URLs are not undiscoverable?
[07:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	On the other hand, people pay for a certain cpacity on their shoutcast streams, and may not want you listening from home
[07:45]	Kopilo Hallard:	x.x
[07:45]	Kopilo Hallard:	so is that a yes or no?
[07:45]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol,
[07:45]	Tillie Ariantho:	I think the LL idea behind it is: "If we can block away 98% of the resident from seeing the URLs its good. The other 2% will find a way anyway." :P
[07:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	residents
[07:46]	Oz Linden:	no, that's not it at all
[07:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	But looks like it. ;)
[07:46]	Oz Linden:	The SL viewer UI is too complex for most users
[07:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	If I pay for 30 streams max, for my club, then everyone fires up WinAmp and listens when not even logged in, my server will max out, and my club will not work
[07:46]	Kopilo Hallard:	so unmasking media urls would not break TPV license?
[07:46]	Oz Linden:	they are bothered by having too many options... we have very good user studies that show this
[07:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	The SL UI is too complex for most Linden Employees, I will admit tha much
[07:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: I know that YOU know. You're a techie after all. But making it seem like their URLs are secure is willfuilly deluding the non-techs out there. It's dishonest, and wrong, and make the non-techs think of open source devs as outlaws.
[07:47]	Oz Linden:	oridinary non-programmers are intimidated and put off by having a zillion choices of menus, especially in popups that include simple things like "zoom" or "sit"
[07:47]	Dale Glass:	well, how about I send a viewer patch to remove the asterisks?
[07:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	The public interface to Second Life is the protocol for talking tothe servers, not the client provided by LL
[07:47]	Latif Khalifa:	/me hopes that we can move beyond restating the same thing 100 times
[07:48]	Kopilo Hallard:	*thumps his foot*
[07:48]	Oz Linden:	Morgaine ... are you just deliberately ignoring that I agree that it should be clear that there is no actual security?
[07:48]	Tillie Ariantho:	;)
[07:48]	Latif Khalifa:	its the debate club ;)
[07:48]	Oz Linden:	/me agrees with Latif
[07:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	If you want to see the URL, use a viewer that shows it to you
[07:49]	Latif Khalifa:	state the same thing 100 times over, hoping the argument will get stronger ;)
[07:49]	Kopilo Hallard:	all I want is a yes or no question, not a debate on wheather doing something is right or wrong x.x
[07:49]	Kopilo Hallard:	I mean answer
[07:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: it's not enough that you say that "it should be clear", when you don't support removing the very thing that suggests the opposite, the asterisks.
[07:49]	Oz Linden:	sorry Kopilo... what's the yes or no question?
[07:49]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine 101
[07:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: if you have something to say on the topic, say it please. Not about the messengers.
[07:50]	Kopilo Hallard:	If a TPV was made to unmask URLs would that break the TPV liecense?
[07:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	"license"?
[07:50]	Kopilo Hallard:	yes
[07:51]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, I'm saying it's rather stupid to repeat the same thing 100 times, there are some opensource issues that i want to talk about and being argumentative and repeatimg same thing 100 times does not let us visit those other issues
[07:51]	Oz Linden:	That's a good question, Kopilo ... it might, but I'd like to take a little time off line to research it rather than give a snap answer, ok?
[07:51]	Kopilo Hallard:	thank you
[07:51]	Kopilo Hallard:	that would be good
[07:51]	Oz Linden:	Next topic... Latif has the floor
[07:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: until Oz makes a logical statement about it, I'm not satisfied. It's not logical to say "Should be clear there is no security", when the code deliberately adds astersisks.
[07:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	A more useful question is, where is the interface to the Second Life service? The protocol on th ewire, or the User Interface as presented by the LL Viewer?
[07:52]	Oz Linden:	/me is thinking about making an in-world "talking stick"
[07:52]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I wanted to hear weather a descision has been reached on opensourcing the bits of the scripting engine Babbage was talking about
[07:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	This vine should drop ready bottles of wine. In a VW, that is allowed :P
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	Yes, a decision has been made to open source that... watch for an announcement soon (I would prefer to to upstage it for anyone who doesn't already know what it is, because the devs should have the opportunity to do it)
[07:54]	Tillie Ariantho:	woot :)
[07:54]	Latif Khalifa:	ok very good to hear
[07:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow, excellent!"
[07:54]	Latif Khalifa:	i was starting to work on an implementation for opensim based on cecil
[07:54]	Kopilo Hallard:	:D
[07:54]	Oz Linden:	/me is delighted that he and Morgaine agree
[07:54]	Latif Khalifa:	but opensourcing LLs would mean we can both benefit :)
[07:55]	Oz Linden:	and that is exactly the point of doing it, Latif
[07:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: I treat each topic separately, when they're disjoint. You're still not satisfactory on the other issue.
[07:55]	Latif Khalifa:	/me hopes to bring UThreadInjector to gmcs compatibility (mono 2.0 profile)
[07:55]	Oz Linden:	I'll see what I can do to find a compromise that makes us both happy on that, Morgaine, but not now...
[07:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	anyone else got a topic before I bring up my easy one?
[07:56]	Latif Khalifa:	tomorows Babbage's OH will be interesting on to visit :)
[07:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Easy would be good, to lower the stress level :-)
[07:56]	Kopilo Hallard:	I do but please bring up the easy one
[07:56]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	Ok...
[07:58]	Oz Linden:	I think that the current viewer source tree structure, with svn checkout plus other stuff "dropped" into the soure tree is clumsy and error prone (because it sharply limits the utility of svn|hg status commands)
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	I'd like to (gradually) evolve the tree to be built differently... that is, the procedure to assemble a working copy
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	so that when you do a checkout, you _never_ put anything into that part of the tree that is not under source control (unless that something is in the svn|hg ignore filters)
[07:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Physical refactoring, into component libraries?
[08:00]	Aimee Linden:	(Got to run to another meeting, bye!)
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	yes, that's part of it Morgaine
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	see you Aimee
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	c u Aimee
[08:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Aimee :-)
[08:00]	Tillie Ariantho:	Copying stuff into a checked out repository is always bad.
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	so prebuilt libraries would be put in parallel to checkout?
[08:00]	Tillie Ariantho:	But all the 3rd party people have to rebuild their repos then, too. ^ ^
[08:00]	Dale Glass:	I like the idea of fixing that, yeah
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	includes/libs
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	the build procedures would expect a top level directory that is not a part of the source control checkout, and any prebuilt libs or artwork would be under that new super-root
[08:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Something needs to be done about pre-builts anyway as they's a gaping exploit vector. Joe knows about it.
[08:02]	Kopilo Hallard:	funs
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	yes, there's some activity on that, Morgaine, but that's really a separable issue
[08:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep.
[08:03]	Oz Linden:	I'd also like to ditch svn and move to a pure Mercurial system
[08:03]	Dale Glass:	that would be awesome
[08:03]	Tillie Ariantho:	I do build management for like 10 years now, and we've never copied stuff into the checked out repository, everything always goes into parallel (re)source folders.
[08:03]	Latif Khalifa:	the whole internal/external SC is a mess
[08:03]	Kopilo Hallard:	why Mercurial over say git?
[08:04]	Latif Khalifa:	right now we don't have external 2.1 branch for instance
[08:04]	Latif Khalifa:	Kopilo, they use mercurial internally
[08:04]	Kopilo Hallard:	ahh thanks
[08:04]	Oz Linden:	This approach would probably also mean that more than one checkout would be needed...
[08:04]	Dale Glass:	also, Bryan O'Sullivan works at LL (he wrote the Mercurial book)
[08:04]	Ardy Lay:	Hm? No V2.1 in viewer-external? What the hell am I building and running then?
[08:05]	Kopilo Hallard:	LOL
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	Tofu is starting work on getting the 2.1 changes out, but we're trying to get a good SG 2.0 release done first
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy. I imagine once 2.1 beta was reelased, 2.1 is in a sperate branch inside the firewall
[08:05]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	sorry im late
[08:05]	Dale Glass:	wait, wasn't Tofu laid off?
[08:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hg could be made to do the dependent checkouts automatically, to make sure a build is consistent, and isn't assembling incompatible parts.
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	internally, we only use hg - the external svn would be the last to be converted
[08:05]	Ardy Lay:	Second Life 2.1.0 (206393) Jun 27 2010 09:50:22 (CommunityDeveloper)
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	viewer-external probably has more changes than 2.1
[08:06]	Ardy Lay:	Oh, you mean a release point tag?
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I think we need more external branches
[08:06]	Kopilo Hallard:	yes
[08:06]	Tillie Ariantho:	I'd prefer an 1.4 Snowglobe with all Nyx' clothing/attachment changes as backports. :P
[08:06]	Kopilo Hallard:	eheehehhee
[08:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tofu was indeed. He must have been resurrected ^_^
[08:06]	Dale Glass:	woot
[08:06]	Kopilo Hallard:	out of the fire and into the wok...
[08:07]	Oz Linden:	Tofu has not been laid off yet... we are still in the UK "consideration period", and in any event he plans to continue as an open source contributor
[08:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah cool, UK peeps still grimly holding on :-)
[08:08]	Latif Khalifa:	we'll know in 10 days (July 9) is when "consultation period" runs out for the Brighton office
[08:08]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	im glad to finaly officaly be a part of the open source dev community
[08:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	There is no "official" open source community :P
[08:09]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[08:09]	Oz Linden:	Tillie... I"ve been pretty clear on this... LL does not have the resources to do work on 1.x. We will be putting our efforts into 2.x (some of the changes in 2.1 are fixes for the complaints about the 2.0 UI, and we'll do more on that). If open devs want to do work to backport things to 1.x, they are free to do so, of course
[08:09]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i think you become offical when some of your code becomes commited
[08:09]	Kopilo Hallard:	there are a few...
[08:09]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	for the first time
[08:09]	Dale Glass:	there's no official furry fandom either, yet it's there
[08:09]	Kopilo Hallard:	/me dislikes linear interfaces
[08:09]	Tillie Ariantho:	2.0 just doesnt help me at all with its UI. When looking at the 2.1 beta I havent even found the BUSY button... :-(
[08:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wolf: no, that just shows you've meekly accepted the Contributor's Agreement and waived your GPL rights. :-)
[08:10]	Kopilo Hallard:	the side bar takes away from the non-linear ui of 1.x ...
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	What Wolfpup meant was that he's signed a contrib agreement, and from my persepctive that makes an important difference - thank you again, Wolfpup
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, stallman disagrees with you on that ;)
[08:11]	Dale Glass:	contrib agreement only holds for things you explicitly contribute
[08:11]	Oz Linden:	Tillie - if you want to put the Busy button back in 2.x, we'll find a way
[08:11]	Kopilo Hallard:	probably an XUI patch
[08:11]	Ardy Lay:	Top Menu "Me > My Status > Busy"
[08:11]	Oz Linden:	don't start, Morgaine... let's have that talk another time
[08:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: assigning copyright to FSF does not waive your GPL rights. Signing the CA does.
[08:11]	Kopilo Hallard:	a lot of things can be done by tweaking the XUI
[08:12]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	in 2.x the busy/away is under me>status
[08:12]	Kopilo Hallard:	such as enabling transparent windows x.x
[08:12]	Tillie Ariantho:	ah
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I think public repository branching strategy needs revisting
[08:12]	Oz Linden:	/me thinks that Busy and Away should be buttons, not menus, but that's just his opinion
[08:12]	Tillie Ariantho:	yup
[08:12]	Oz Linden:	so do I
[08:12]	Kopilo Hallard:	yeap
[08:13]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	kopilo there is a tweek for semi transparent windows
[08:13]	Tillie Ariantho:	addable to the bottom bar.
[08:13]	Kopilo Hallard:	or just options in a menu
[08:13]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	how do you think it should change?
[08:13]	Kopilo Hallard:	the whole ui?
[08:13]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	you just have to repace some of the png files for the ui
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	(the repo branching, I mean)
[08:14]	Kopilo Hallard:	showing parcel propeties should be defaulted to true and not false
[08:14]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, we now only have viewer-external (sort of trunk/master/head). We need to have viewer release branches 2.0-hotfix 2.1-hotfix or whatever they are called
[08:14]	Oz Linden:	Kopilo... I'm going to make a new rule... suggestions to scrap all of anything are out of bounds here
[08:14]	Latif Khalifa:	also we need release point tags
[08:14]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	/me is running a custom built and tweeked viewer
[08:14]	Latif Khalifa:	so i could checkout 2.1beta that was released to the public for instance
[08:14]	Latif Khalifa:	or i track changes only to the 2.1
[08:14]	Tillie Ariantho:	The UI could use some other minor enhancements too, and I am not talking about stuff that got borked in 2.0 but was before, too. Like too many clicks for reaching the Advanced Sky Editor... ;)
[08:15]	Oz Linden:	Once we convert the external repos to hg, that will be easy, and it's one of the reasons to do that
[08:15]	Kopilo Hallard:	reverting to the old sound system...
[08:15]	Kopilo Hallard:	instead of just a master volume control
[08:16]	Latif Khalifa:	external source code repo is such a mess, one could hardly call viewer an opensource project if one is unable to get the source for a point release
[08:16]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	kopilo if you click the gear on the volume control slider it open the preverence for the sound with all the sliders there
[08:16]	Kopilo Hallard:	making the XUI editor avaliable after logging in
[08:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: if you're interested in the viewer UI question, you might like to check out the transcripts of a year and a half's worth of weekly UXIG meetings --- the community-driven User eXperience Interest Group, which was created when Benjamin and Malbers cancelled their User Experience office hours, way back. It's quite a repository of UI designs and analysis and community opinion, and well classified by topic.
[08:16]	Oz Linden:	Another rule for Oz's office hours... you have to explain what the difference is that you want - saying "the old X" doesn't help me understand because I never used it, whatever it was
[08:16]	Kopilo Hallard:	Wolf: but that requires opening preferences instead of a quick mute or reducing volume
[08:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good point there, Oz
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	the list of UI problems in viewer 2.x is too long for any one office hour :)
[08:17]	Tillie Ariantho:	;D
[08:17]	Kopilo Hallard:	yeap
[08:17]	Kopilo Hallard:	agreed latif
[08:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's seriously broken on multiple fronts.
[08:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	Allowing to assign keyboard-shortcuts to everything would be a beginning. ^^
[08:18]	Oz Linden:	Incidentally, I think that real time chat is a horrible medium for those discussions, and suggest that those with ideas look to some of the posts that Morgaine has done for how to make a thorough exposition of an idea on a mailing list
[08:18]	Kopilo Hallard:	Tillie I keep bringing that up at nyx OH
[08:18]	Kopilo Hallard:	he is starting to see it is a common issue :p
[08:18]	Kopilo Hallard:	hopefully
[08:18]	Kopilo Hallard:	x.x
[08:18]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	me i would like to have the navigation back in the top bar like in 1.x
[08:19]	Kopilo Hallard:	Oz: JAD has its points too
[08:19]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oz: sure real time chat is pretty slow...
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	what navigation, WolfPup? mine is on top...
[08:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: saying nice things about me doesn't get you off the hook for other thongs :-)
[08:19]	Ardy Lay:	Mini-Location bar could use a couple of small additions.
[08:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nor things, either
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	rule violation Wolfpup "like in 1.x"
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	my top pet peeve with viewer 2.x is the local chat. 1.x has simple overlay that displays local chat on a semi transparent background. 2.x brings horrible twitter like update blobs. also 2.x doesn't keep focuos on the input bar because Q likes WASD navigation
[08:20]	Tillie Ariantho:	But voice chat is ugly too, with many people talking quite 'broken', other have pretty bad setup and make all strange noises ... ;)
[08:20]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	at the top of 2.x you have three bars menu,navigation, and favs
[08:20]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[08:20]	Tillie Ariantho:	I disabled 2 of them, cause they eat up the screen for nothing...
[08:20]	Kopilo Hallard:	no inspect...
[08:20]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	in 1.x you had navigation as part of the menu bar
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, you cannot dismiss 1.x look. You have to compare 1.x local chat and 2.x local chat to see how much less usable 2.0 is
[08:21]	Oz Linden:	I'm looking at this local chat in 2.1 on a single semi-transparent background, Latif
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz turn off hostory
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	you need to keep that ugly blob up at all times
[08:21]	Oz Linden:	you can set a preference for 'plain text chat' - it's much nicer, if less colorful
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, you are not understanding what i am saying
[08:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is the wrong forum for listing 2.* faults. It's been done to death since release, and there hasn't been any acceptance forthcoming that it was a failed design.
[08:22]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	would also be nice if local was back in the cinversations window like it was in 1.x
[08:22]	Latif Khalifa:	in 2.0 in order to see that semi transparent overlay you need to keep chat history open
[08:22]	Latif Khalifa:	1.x does it automatically
[08:22]	Latif Khalifa:	and it goes away when tehre is no local chat
[08:22]	Ardy Lay:	I prefered local chat an IMs in one tabbed container that toggled from semi-transparent to opaque when the input field had focus.
[08:22]	Oz Linden:	no, I'm not... but I think that the burden is on you to explain it...
[08:22]	Latif Khalifa:	lol no
[08:23]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that is what im talking about as well ardy
[08:23]	Latif Khalifa:	if you want to understand what i'm talking about you need to familiarize yoursef with 1.x interface
[08:23]	Oz Linden:	Actually, Morgaine it's not quite true that there's no recognition of the 2.x "faults"
[08:23]	Latif Khalifa:	otherwise you will not get why 75% of active users opt out of viewer 2.0
[08:23]	Oz Linden:	there is certainly recognition that it has not been effective at doing what it was meant to do
[08:23]	Latif Khalifa:	but i guess it's up to you if you want to understand it or not
[08:24]	Oz Linden:	but that does not mean that we will throw out what was/is good about it and just "go back" to anything... we will go forward and improve what needs improving
[08:25]	Latif Khalifa:	how is that attitide to the UI working out for you so far?
[08:25]	Kopilo Hallard:	When andrew linden was asked about planning for accessibility in viewer 2.x, he mentioned two things which were found in 1.x. Does this mean no further thought had been put towards accessibility? :p
[08:25]	Oz Linden:	I do want to understand... but if you want real time understanding, then you have to make some accomodations to my limitations - sorry
[08:26]	Latif Khalifa:	you also have to get yourself familiar with 1.x inteface sorry
[08:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: those are two different things. Sure, there's recognition that it didn't raise the newbie retention rate, but then nobody I know ever expected it to, since SL's problems are entirely different to that. But there has never been a recognition that the basic V2 design was not just flawed, but a major regression compared to 1.x
[08:26]	Tillie Ariantho:	What's good in 2.0, though? :D Screen gets swamped with tiny icons, you have to revert chat style manually to make it usable, and disable 2 of the three top bars, almost no one likes the sidebar... ;)
[08:26]	Latif Khalifa:	otherwise you'll be none the wiser
[08:26]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	some thing that would help the dev comuninty that is working with the source code would be a good flowchart of who things are done with indications of locating in the code
[08:26]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	how*
[08:26]	Kopilo Hallard:	good thing about v2: the skin style is clean
[08:26]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	true kopilo
[08:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: the UI details aside, the main reason V2 failed was because it was designed in secrecy.
[08:27]	Ardy Lay:	I liked the purple pill buttons! :-)
[08:27]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	wouldn't mind havgin a 'silver' version like in 1.23
[08:27]	Tillie Ariantho:	There are purple pill buttons? O.o
[08:27]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[08:28]	Oz Linden:	I really do want to work with the community to make the UI better... I actually agree with many of the things you're complaining about. I do _not_ like the 2.0 UI (though 2.1 is some improvement)
[08:28]	Ardy Lay:	Tillie, yes, the buttond looked like purple capsules.
[08:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Designing an open source client in secrecy is one of the most mind-numbingly daft ideas this side of SCO.
[08:28]	Kopilo Hallard:	Second Life 2.0.1 (203797) Apr 21 2010
[08:28]	Oz Linden:	but taking up my office hour by ranting that "it all stinks" really won't accomplish anything
[08:28]	Kopilo Hallard:	lol
[08:28]	Tillie Ariantho:	will have a look, Ardy. :)
[08:28]	Kopilo Hallard:	plus you don't really have a say on the UI design front?
[08:28]	Oz Linden:	and I completely agree with you Morgaine (there, I did it again)
[08:28]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oz: sorry. :P
[08:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[08:29]	Oz Linden:	I have a say... I don't have the last word, but I have a say
[08:29]	Tillie Ariantho:	^^
[08:29]	Kopilo Hallard:	:D
[08:29]	Tillie Ariantho:	Say you, say me, say it together ... lalala. :P
[08:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Snowglobe 2.0.1 (3447) Jun 27 2010 22:32:46 (Snowglobe Test Build) is my current viewer
[08:30]	Kopilo Hallard:	nyx has been working hard to fix a lot of v2 ui
[08:30]	Latif Khalifa:	nyx is only doing avatar appearance stuff, not the ui
[08:30]	Kopilo Hallard:	at least we can adjust voice volume now
[08:30]	Oz Linden:	but my opinion would be made more effective if instead of saying "the open devs hate X", I could say "the open devs think X needs to be improved like this and we have an acceptable patch that does so"
[08:30]	Tillie Ariantho:	I hope the emerald people backport the wearable stuff. :P
[08:30]	Kopilo Hallard:	ahh true latif
[08:31]	Kopilo Hallard:	how about
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, 1000s of users said, "we want chat to have focus like 1.x did", Q Linden says, tough luck, no can do, bye
[08:31]	Ardy Lay:	WolfPup, build and use viewer-external for a while. It is different in some ways. You have to seek out the changes though becuase the commit messages are full of hidden stuff (ext-#) and non-descriptions.
[08:31]	Kopilo Hallard:	users think x does not work for ui and have these suggestions?
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	and there is the end of discussion ;)
[08:31]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oz: there is patches for a lot already. :) Emerald has better access to the windlight settings, Kirstens Viewer has a more customizable 2.0 UI ... :)
[08:31]	Tillie Ariantho:	The changes are out there...
[08:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nyx has an interesting take on the V2 question, which no other Linden seems to be voicing so far, but it's fairly reasonable and forward looking. He says something like "Yes it's full of regressions, but help us fix those, and the end result will be better." The trouble is, I don't see any significant support for the "fixes".
[08:31]	Kopilo Hallard:	imp has a good number of ui improvments too
[08:32]	Kopilo Hallard:	imprudence
[08:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	Sure there are no "easy plug-in" patches for the LL client. ;)
[08:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	Or better: not for all of it.
[08:32]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	ardy i tried to set up to do that but ended up creating issued in my system now that i can not get to correct
[08:32]	Oz Linden:	Emerald has not made those changes available to LL, unfortunately. We (Merov and I) are working on getting a list of other UI fixes reviewed for inclusion in the main line sources
[08:33]	Ardy Lay:	WolfPup, oops. You did something bad then. ;-)
[08:33]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yep while working with tortiose
[08:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: yes Emerald has made those changes available. They release their source under GPL, as required, don't they?
[08:33]	Oz Linden:	as I'm sure you've all heard, LL has had a big reorg... it's going to take a little time for the decision making process to adjust itself
[08:33]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	now my c drive is locked as a working drive and can not correct that
[08:33]	Oz Linden:	don't start, Morgaine
[08:33]	Kopilo Hallard:	just hope that doesn't make LL extinct
[08:34]	Oz Linden:	me too - I like my job
[08:34]	Ardy Lay:	WolfPup, never, ever, include your rood directory in a repository.
[08:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: it's an important point. If you're upholding the need for the CA, then you're part of the problem for LL's future. The issue shouldn't be brushed under the carpet.
[08:34]	Latif Khalifa:	i really hope LL starts hearing 2.x feedback. I mean really hearing, not pretend to hear
[08:34]	Oz Linden:	we're over time, and I've got other things to prep for (like advocating for much of what you want)
[08:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Oz, have fun :-)
[08:35]	Oz Linden:	Morgaine... I would be delighted to have a 1-1 discussion with you re: the CA and why I think it's good for open source
[08:35]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that happend when trying to add viewer external to my repository folder all ready started and now i can not get it to undo
[08:35]	Oz Linden:	let's find a time to do that
[08:35]	Dale Glass:	I'd be interested in joining that
[08:35]	Kopilo Hallard:	hehe
[08:36]	Kopilo Hallard:	maybe next OH?
[08:36]	Oz Linden:	/me Oz is thinking he could make some $ by selling tickets...
[08:36]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[08:36]	Ardy Lay:	Wolfpup, you should either include it in the initial checkout out have it as a seperate checked out subtree.
[08:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	-*@ ROFL @*-
[08:36]	Dale Glass:	around that time would be good. I can't normally login at this time, today is an exception
[08:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure. But many other people want in on that, a 1:1 that excludes them would not be good.
[08:36]	Tillie Ariantho:	:D
[08:36]	Oz Linden:	we've already done some OH on that, but Morgaine wasn't there
[08:36]	Oz Linden:	let me think about that...
[08:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha. Is there a transcript sop I can catch up?
[08:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	ardy you have any sugestions for unlocking the root?
[08:37]	Oz Linden:	gotta go now folks.. thanks for an engaging session.... I'll certainly post this in the archive
[08:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	tc oz
[08:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me waves to Oz, and winks :-)
[08:37]	Tillie Ariantho:	every office hour/meeting before 9am is bad anyway, as europeans are at work then, usually.
[08:37]	Latif Khalifa:	i personally think that's a futule discussion ;) what would be useful would be asking for LL to make an exception for opensim devs ;)
[08:37]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Oz :)

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