User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-10-11

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List of Attendees


[07:31] Oz Linden: Good Monday everyone
[07:31] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Oz, Smokey
[07:32] Morgaine Dinova: /me waves to the usual assembly
[07:32] WolfPup Lowenhar: actualy looks a little thin this morning
[07:33] Oz Linden: that's "peaceful", Wolfpup :-)
[07:33] WolfPup Lowenhar: -*@ ROFL @*- Oz
[07:33] Zidan Foxdale: Hi
[07:33] Oz Linden: /me spent most of the weekend driving... a quiet morning is a good thing
[07:34] WolfPup Lowenhar: i was working RL most of the weekend
[07:35] Oz Linden: Anyone have any topics they are dying to discuss this morning?
[07:35] Gazanfer Jehangir: hi oz
[07:35] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me is wondering what the new autobuild system will be like
[07:36] Oz Linden: I could bug you all about what you're going to do in the next sprint...
[07:36] WolfPup Lowenhar: i have one issue wating for the next sprint already
[07:36] Oz Linden: Yes, I'm having some trouble getting the tools folks to just publish autobuild...
[07:36] Gazanfer Jehangir: is there a rule or clause whic says a tpv cant link to a third party site
[07:36] Morgaine Dinova: Autobuild sounds like a good topic. Is there a spec on the wiki for it?
[07:37] Oz Linden: The only docs for it are still on the internal wiki, Morgaine (grrr)
[07:37] Morgaine Dinova: k
[07:37] Morgaine Dinova: Do you have a rough idea what it does though?
[07:37] WolfPup Lowenhar: i just hope the autobuild system will be compatable with the newer versions of VS
[07:38] Oz Linden: But I'm going to basically just publish (internally) a schedule for opening it up and see who objects and why
[07:38] Robin Cornelius: I'm happy to test and provide constructive feedback/patches as soon as its live
[07:38] Oz Linden: Essentially, it manages dependencies between projects (libs, etc) - it's a layer above cmake
[07:38] Oz Linden: replaces
[07:39] WolfPup Lowenhar: you might have some issues cause of things like the kdu issue that is going on now
[07:39] Morgaine Dinova: cmake was supposed to replace
[07:39] Oz Linden: it's very much live internally, and already being used to build most of the prebuild libs
[07:39] Mojito Sorbet: A layer on TOP of cmake??
[07:40] Mojito Sorbet: What exactly does smake not do?
[07:40] Morgaine Dinova: For FOSS compatibility, you really need two steps, a config step and a build step. 3 steps is bad.
[07:40] Oz Linden: Gazanafer: no, there is no restriction on the ability to attach to other services
[07:40] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, dependencies. Like ./configure...?
[07:40] Robin Cornelius: Morg on windows its a great help
[07:41] Gazanfer Jehangir: ty oz
[07:41] Oz Linden: Cmake doesn't deal with the case of choosing between whether to use a prebuilt lib or to build from sources, and fetching whichever it is you need
[07:41] WolfPup Lowenhar: will we be able to direct auto build to our own libs if we have already built them?
[07:41] Oz Linden: the autobuild config for a project lists what artifacts it needs from other projects, and where to get them, and let's you pick (or default) which you use
[07:42] Oz Linden: yes Wolfpup
[07:42] Morgaine Dinova: I wouldn't expect it to. I would expect cmake to make makefiles/solutions/project_files etc. And then the makesfiles do stuff, including fetching deps. That's the standard approch.
[07:42] WolfPup Lowenhar: kewl cause i would hate to be waiting 24hrs while qtwebkit gets rebilt
[07:42] Oz Linden: it also declares what artifacts the current project produces, so the tool can connect project level ins and outs
[07:43] WolfPup Lowenhar: since i have done that once already
[07:44] Morgaine Dinova: On *nix system, make can do any fetching that's required. Can't the corresponding programs on Mac/Win do the same?
[07:44] WolfPup Lowenhar: no morgain
[07:44] Oz Linden: It is possible to do it that way, Morgaine, but it requires that the developer use external documentation to set up and connect all the components... autobuild makes much more of the process automatic
[07:44] Robin Cornelius: there is no program on windows to do it you need to find something
[07:44] Robin Cornelius: so the program might just as well be the autobuild script
[07:45] Robin Cornelius: infact this might even be genericly extendable to FLOSS projects on windows to help break windows build hell
[07:45] Oz Linden: On windows and mac we try to assume little more than the platform-standard ide
[07:45] Oz Linden: which in both cases is out of date, but that's another problem
[07:45] WolfPup Lowenhar: im geussing the .sh that is in the hg repository is part of the autobuild system already
[07:46] Oz Linden: Maybe I'll invite the autobuild devs to come to my Wednesday OH - how does that sound?
[07:46] Oz Linden: The ... yes, it is
[07:46] Robin Cornelius: +1 Oz
[07:46] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me would not be able to attend that meeting as he has to work RL
[07:46] Robin Cornelius: although not sure if i can make it, got clients visiting Wed and no idea when they are leaving
[07:46] Oz Linden: I'll do that... a nice public invite on opensource-dev... you should all reply with enthusiasm :-)
[07:47] Morgaine Dinova: Always nice to talk to other teams. Philip's "new openess" never really progressed beyond Snowstorm, perhaps inviting them would help promote it.
[07:47] WolfPup Lowenhar: monday ornings is the only time i can attend your OH's Oz
[07:48] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me keeps a running calender of RL and SL schedual in his SL wiki page
[07:49] Oz Linden: Actually, on that note - would moving this back to 07:00 SLT be bad for anyone? Now that I'm doing Mondays from home, I can do this earlier more easily
[07:50] Morgaine Dinova: All times are equally life-destroying for me, sounds ideal :P
[07:50] Oz Linden: Yes, Morgaine.... Snowstorm rather more enthusiastically embraced that than other teams did... we're trying to infect the rest of the Lab....
[07:50] Zidan Foxdale: For me that time is ok for time I ncan attend it from office
[07:50] WolfPup Lowenhar: it would not realy mater to me as the event i host inworld never realy has any one coming to it
[07:51] Oz Linden: I'll post a note on the list re: a possible time change (may suggest making the Wed a bit later too)
[07:52] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: I actually understand totally the reticence --- I would be hesitant in their position too. But really the company should speak with one voice, even if that means closed rather than open. Otherwise it's pretty soul-destroying for the people concerned.
[07:52] WolfPup Lowenhar: fo me the wensday one i would not be able to attend at all unless you made it MUCH earlier
[07:52] Oz Linden: An interesting note.... last week we averaged about 1700 sessions per day of people using Development or Developer viewers !
[07:53] WolfPup Lowenhar: im always running a developer viewer
[07:53] WolfPup Lowenhar: Second Life 2.2.1 (0) Oct 10 2010 00:00:05 (Second Life Developer) is my current viewer
[07:54] Zidan Foxdale: Oz one of reasons is that last Release was buggy in root. As people learned of exsistence of living , up-dated viewer, they started to use it
[07:54] Oz Linden: The part I find encouraging is that that number is way to large to be just the developers - we've got a significant number of non-devs trying them too
[07:55] Oz Linden: Zildan: what do you mean by "in root" ?
[07:55] Morgaine Dinova: I don't, except when I test to see how far Snowstorm's progressed. One shouldn't use a viewer than one feels unhappy with, and that's the current situation for me. I expected Snowstorm to make the parts of the UI that we objected to optional far more quickly than it has. :-(
[07:55] Zidan Foxdale: Well, most of inventory opertions didn't worked 100% reliable
[07:55] lufpleh Obstreperous: you would have far more using them if they had a lot of the features of TPV's
[07:56] Oz Linden: Well, we're working on fixing the UI and we've already pulled many of the Snowglobe features in...
[07:56] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: why is there such terrible denial of what people want in the V2 UI? It's like you're being help at gunpoint internally to deny us what we want.
[07:57] Oz Linden: we're a small team (smaller since Aimee and Tofu left), so ....
[07:57] Morgaine Dinova: held* at gunpoint
[07:57] WolfPup Lowenhar: morgain hopefuly in the next sprint they will be an issue corected as there is already an storm issue worked on and ready for review and QA
[07:58] Oz Linden: I can't really say, Morgaine... both because it's not really appropriate for me to discuss how internal discussions go, and because I don't really understand it well enough to have a good answer
[07:58] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, but that's not really the que4stion, Wolf. The question is, "Why is the answer always No?"
[07:58] lufpleh Obstreperous: snowglobe does not contain many TPV features
[07:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hmmm
[07:58] Oz Linden: The answer isn't always no (often, maybe, but not always)
[07:59] Morgaine Dinova: Well, all I can say is, if you want more users, you know what to do.
[07:59] Oz Linden: agreed
[07:59] Oz Linden: But it's also true that accelerating that process is something open devs really can participate in through making contributions
[08:00] Mojito Sorbet: Not if want they want to do is rejected
[08:00] Morgaine Dinova: I'm starting to joke in Groupies about the "Hellmouth" in LL HQ, just because I have no working theory at all why what's happening is happening. :P
[08:00] Mojito Sorbet: In the absense of information, speculation abounds
[08:01] Morgaine Dinova: It's just so odd.
[08:01] Oz Linden: Have you had a proposal rejected, Mojito?
[08:01] WolfPup Lowenhar: morgain two things i have worked on are in the 'process' of comeing to the virewer one just has located an issue in mac builds and the other is just waiting for the next sprint
[08:01] Morgaine Dinova: That's cool Wolf.
[08:01] Mojito Sorbet: If someone camealong and wanted to change the UI so the suidebar could go away, would that be rejected?
[08:01] Morgaine Dinova: Yes. Undoubtedly.
[08:02] Oz Linden: I've got some builds ready to be tested - if we can verify that they have not introduced any new bugs, we can integrate a lot of build fixes....
[08:02] Zidan Foxdale: you mean runtime conversion from sidebar to classic UI?
[08:02] WolfPup Lowenhar: morgain the one that is for the next sprint deal directly with an ongoing UI complaint
[08:02] Mojito Sorbet: No, just makwe the diebar optional
[08:02] Mojito Sorbet: sidebar
[08:02] Zidan Foxdale: /me likes "diebar" term
[08:03] Oz Linden: That question is not answerable, Mojito - what would the proposal replace it with? The features there have to go somewhere
[08:03] Mojito Sorbet: I know lots of programs where you can drag a window over to the main window frame and it "sticks" there. But you can "unstick" them too
[08:03] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, everyone's always said optional. "Get rid of" == "Provide a checkbox for it that can be ticked off".
[08:03] Oz Linden: you can remove the sidebar tabs now if you want to
[08:03] Mojito Sorbet: All the features that are now in the sidebar used to be somewhere else
[08:04] Oz Linden: and it sticks
[08:04] WolfPup Lowenhar: storm-255 will help with quite a few complaints concering one area of the UI
[08:04] Oz Linden: /me is looking forward to that one
[08:05] WolfPup Lowenhar: in fact the viewer im useing now has that feature in it
[08:06] Oz Linden: I'm not arguing for the sidebar, I'm just pointing out that "get rid of X" is not an actionable request. To be reviewable, it needs to be "replace X with Y" and Y needs to be a comprehensive replacement for X
[08:06] Morgaine Dinova: I just can't fathom why we have to specify each item for removal from the sidebar on its own. Why not save yourselves and ourselves 20 Jiras and simply make the sidebar optional as a unit?
[08:06] Oz Linden: I think I just answered that
[08:07] lufpleh Obstreperous: dont think anyone said get rid, they said OPTION to replace
[08:07] Oz Linden: with what?
[08:07] Morgaine Dinova: With NOTHING
[08:07] WolfPup Lowenhar: morgain to do that there would have to be easy ways for the 'average' user to access what is on the side bar if the 'happen' to turn it off
[08:07] lufpleh Obstreperous: does it matter with what, its a choice for the user
[08:07] Mojito Sorbet: How did they access all that stuff before? I type ctrl-I, my inventory appears
[08:08] Mojito Sorbet: I right click an avatar, his profile appears
[08:08] Zidan Foxdale: r
[08:08] lufpleh Obstreperous: /me thinks its catch 22, developers/users want options, LL want clean simple
[08:08] Zidan Foxdale: r
[08:08] WolfPup Lowenhar: the 1.x viewr had buttons in the bottom bar for inv and such
[08:08] Oz Linden: A new user is certainly not going to know or use keyboard shortcust
[08:08] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: have you ever used a V1 viewwer? because you would not be asking the question "Replace with what?" if you had used one.
[08:08] Mojito Sorbet: Hidable buttons, just like now
[08:09] Oz Linden: It's been a long time, Morgaine
[08:09] Zidan Foxdale: but at almost very early point he would need to know some anyway... even movement or editing commands
[08:09] Morgaine Dinova: I recommend you use one for a while, then you'll see what we mean, and there will be better communication between us.
[08:10] Gazanfer Jehangir: i cant change my outfit in viewer two
[08:11] Gazanfer Jehangir: a latex suit has been clinging for two weeks
[08:11] Gazanfer Jehangir: there is actually lots of rework needed there
[08:11] Oz Linden: I'm not sure there would if the essence of the interaction still started with "revert the entire UI". The fundamental problem is that that is too much work to do ... there have been structural changes in the software. Besides - careful testing _has_ shown that new users do better on the new UI (which is not to say that it has not also shown that much more improvement is needed)
[08:12] Zidan Foxdale: on other hand if we close sidebar fully there wouln't standard : 1) guide 2) outfit feature 3) LM and teleport history. because they are new options
[08:12] Oz Linden: What is preventing you from changing your outfit, G (and which viewer are you using?)
[08:13] Morgaine Dinova: I'll summarize the design issue. In V2, there is a forced modal tabbed dock for panels. In V1 there wasn't one, so panels popped up wherever people last placed them, and without any modality. When we say "Make the sidebar optional", we don't mean "replace it by something else", we mean "Make it go away entirely when checkbox is off", so that the modality vanishes and the panels appear where we want them.
[08:14] Gazanfer Jehangir: now i am on ascent
[08:14] Gazanfer Jehangir: but when i login to kirstens i have this week ago latex suit that just wont go away
[08:15] Gazanfer Jehangir: and its same with my other av
[08:15] Oz Linden: Well, in Development or Beta viewers, you can detach them, and those windows do remember where they were. I think we still need a better solution for where they go when you close them, but have you tried that yet, Morgaine?
[08:15] Gazanfer Jehangir: and even if i prefer v2, i amnow forced to use ascent
[08:15] Oz Linden: Sorry, G, I can't help with those viewers
[08:15] Oz Linden: forced how?
[08:16] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: yes, I have tried it, but I see you're still trying to avoid the issue: we don't want the sidebar to exist at all, when we disable it in pref.
[08:16] Oz Linden: On the other point, I"m no fan of modal UIs anywhere (just to be clear)
[08:16] Zidan Foxdale: oh... i guess i knopw what it is
[08:16] Zidan Foxdale: haven't yoou use secondary display, G?
[08:16] Oz Linden: I'm not avoiding the issue... I'm talking about the alternative we're evolving toward
[08:17] WolfPup Lowenhar: oz right now they do not fully 'close' they just minimize
[08:17] Oz Linden: Yes, I know Wolfpup... that's what I think needs improving
[08:18] Morgaine Dinova: You don't need to evolve to it. You just need a single checkbox to make the sidebar go away (for those who select that). Less work for you, less aggravation for everyone else.
[08:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: aand some people need multiple instances ie even host and store owners
[08:19] WolfPup Lowenhar: sometimes it is very handy to have mutiple profiles up so you can compare them
[08:20] Oz Linden: Now you're the one who's not responding to what I'm saying, Morgaine.. there are features that at present can _only_ be reached throught the sidebar. To suggest that they just be made unreachable is not good enough
[08:20] Oz Linden: Multiple instances of various windows (including profiles) is on the backlog
[08:21] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: Because you haven't used V1, I can understand you not immediately seeing what we're getting at. (You should correct that of course, by using V1.) But everyone else in the company DOES have that prior experience, so they DO know what V1 fans want. This is what's so puzzling, they know, but they don't wish to go there.
[08:21] Oz Linden: Profiles specifically are actually being done by another team (and yes, that's hard for external people to see... refer to earlier frustrations)
[08:22] WolfPup Lowenhar: morgain i hate to be sounding like oim sideing with LL but there are new features that can only be accessed theereought teh sidebar that if you compleatle disable it those would become unuseable
[08:22] Zidan Foxdale: hmm, we got unused space anyway... why not makeswitch between sidbar buttons and bottombar ones
[08:22] Morgaine Dinova: Wolf: such as?
[08:23] Morgaine Dinova: It's not an issue of "siding with LL", btw. It's an issue of discussing UI concepts. Not us vs them at all.
[08:23] WolfPup Lowenhar: i cant say right off
[08:23] Oz Linden: The new Quickstart Guide
[08:23] Oz Linden: (in Development viewers now)
[08:24] Gazanfer Jehangir: then what is it that we get with the f1 key
[08:24] Morgaine Dinova: help should be on F1 and on Help menu. Industry standard.
[08:24] WolfPup Lowenhar: you get the help not the quick start
[08:24] Morgaine Dinova: Help->QuickStart
[08:24] Oz Linden: That's the help browser... the new guide is not help, it's a tutorial (which are two different animals)
[08:25] Gazanfer Jehangir: i think morg has a point in the the sidebar has just made features less accessible now, that is where the issues is. the sidebar would be actually gor if it added a set of featuresinstedo f rerouting them
[08:25] Gazanfer Jehangir: damn my typos
[08:25] Zidan Foxdale: I think we should be afraid to rely on several hotkeys. We didn't discrded WASD thing, no? why? because everyone(almost) know them
[08:25] WolfPup Lowenhar: well there never was a quick star in the 1.x viewer only the help
[08:26] Gazanfer Jehangir: no one hates the sidebar in itself but is it adding things or just making em complex is the honest question
[08:26] Morgaine Dinova: Well the tutorial certainly doesn't need a sidebar. It just needs a panel. The sidebar isn't even good for the tutorial, it can't be moved around.
[08:26] Oz Linden: That's just not even close to true, Zildan... WASD is, in general, hadly known at all outside of gamers
[08:26] lufpleh Obstreperous: tutorial used to be under Help
[08:26] Oz Linden: Any sidebar tab can be torn off and moved around
[08:27] Gazanfer Jehangir: a tutorial could be welcome why not
[08:27] Morgaine Dinova: Why shove it into a sidebar just so it can be torn off? It's back to front.
[08:28] WolfPup Lowenhar: i actualy like the sidebard although i had to use some 'glassing' tweeks to the png files to suit me
[08:28] WolfPup Lowenhar: im still working on thouse though
[08:29] Gazanfer Jehangir: sidebar can be very good if it introduced good features yes
[08:29] Gazanfer Jehangir: buthijacking an ui working better otherwise?
[08:30] Oz Linden: I think (just my opinion) that the strength of a sidebar is that it provides an easy way to explore features that require space to display. I find it much less disruptive and quicker to flip through tabs there than to open and close windows using menus
[08:30] Morgaine Dinova: Look, the sidebar is a forced and fixed modal dock. Making it forced on people has no justification at all. Where is its "Story"? Making it fixed has no justification either? Why shouldn't a dock be moveable? And modality, well that's just plain nuts. Three points, none of them justified at all. Where are the reasons for them???????
[08:30] lufpleh Obstreperous: lol at space to display, group profile layout in sidebar is a mess compared to V1
[08:31] Oz Linden: I actually agree that it shouldn't be either fixed or modal
[08:31] Oz Linden: And in fact, fixing those things are features on the backlog
[08:32] WolfPup Lowenhar: it might be best if there was a way to 'blend' the side bar
[08:32] Oz Linden: As for forced, I'm not sure that I really understand that ... how is it any more or less "forced" than the menu bar or the bottom buttons?
[08:32] Morgaine Dinova: If it's neither fixed nor modal then that leaves forced. Why force a dock on people at all? If they want a dock, fine, but it should be an option. For those who don't want a dock, it shouldn't appear at all, rather than appear + require people to tear off from it.
[08:34] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: by "forced" dock I mean one that the panels are required to go through, and be torn off from. There never used to be a mandatory dock, now there is.
[08:34] strung up Lantern w/ fireflies (copy): whispers: automatic
[08:34] Zidan Foxdale: prolly that what as checkbox in preferences we should have? dock or undock window by default? like with chat tabs
[08:34] Morgaine Dinova: Yup Zidan
[08:36] Oz Linden: Well, I rather suspect that we won't solve this now, and I've got to move on to some other things... I encourage people to make suggestions, but please bear in mind that we need to deliver complete solutions... just deleting things won't cut it.
[08:36] Morgaine Dinova: Personally I like docks, but only configurable one, ie. that you can size and place as you want, and to which you drag those things you wish to appear on them. But the V2 docks is a kitchen sink, fixed, forced, modal, and huge, and that just doesn't work for me.
[08:36] WolfPup Lowenhar: maybe what would be needed is a compleat preferences setting just for the sidebar
[08:37] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: yeah, agreed we can't solve it. I just wish it had been discussed at design time, then these things would have come out.
[08:38] Oz Linden: Well, the good news is that at least our team is now making our design processes open.... and I'm trying to work on other teams too
[08:38] Morgaine Dinova: :-)
[08:38] WolfPup Lowenhar: that is a god thing all though it will take a 'LOT' of time
[08:38] WolfPup Lowenhar: good*
[08:38] lufpleh Obstreperous: nobody saying delete or remove, they just saying have option
[08:38] Oz Linden: We're making some progress... the Display Names team actually did make some real changes in response to feedback on the Project viewer
[08:39] Oz Linden: Need to get more teams doing those things, and doing them earlier
[08:39] WolfPup Lowenhar: true
[08:40] Morgaine Dinova: I know it feels like "loss of control" from the Linden end, but all this grief that it's cause could have been avoided, with just a small loss of control.
[08:40] Oz Linden: .... and it would also help to have more open devs contributing fully worked out ideas and implementations instead of just heckling
[08:41] Oz Linden: Don't just tell the Lindens how to do it... show them.
[08:41] Morgaine Dinova: Pay us :-)
[08:41] Oz Linden: How much?
[08:41] Oz Linden: (no smiley)
[08:41] Techwolf Lupindo: /me tosses one Linden.
[08:42] Morgaine Dinova: Well that would be a serious topic. But my "pay us" was a direct response to what sounded like a command to work, which wasn't serious :-)
[08:42] Oz Linden: There's a topic for next time... how much would it take to actually get people to do more work?
[08:42] Oz Linden: It wasn't a command ... it was a suggestion. But the notion of paying for work isn't an idle one.
[08:43] Oz Linden: Let's leave that for next time. gotta go do some testing....
[08:43] Morgaine Dinova: Just in case that wasn't clear, I did not mean that stuff is not getting done because there's not pay --- that's not a driving force in FOSS.
[08:43] Zidan Foxdale: werent we supposed to exchange ideas here? For me it's only matter of time I need to get familiar with generic structure (and style) of project.
[08:43] Morgaine Dinova: Yes Zidan.
[08:43] Robin Cornelius: Oz if you could increase the "static const no_hours_in_day" then i could do more ;-)

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