User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-10-13

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[12:57] Oz Linden: Hi Boroondas ... All those fixes are in, including the additional LL_TEST switches
[12:58] Boroondas Gupte: /me is now running a 64bit client compiled from un-altered viewer-development :-D
[12:58] Oz Linden: TaDa!!!
[12:58] Oz Linden: don't be shy folks... make yourselves comfortable
[12:59] Boroondas Gupte: <tease>had viewer-development been based on SG2 rather than LL's internal repo, we could have been at that step monthes ago</tease>
[12:59] Oz Linden: Yeah, but we'd have had other problems
[12:59] Oz Linden: gotta pick your headaches
[13:00] Boroondas Gupte: then again, it's great to have the single changesets for stuff way into the past which SG2 wouldn't have had
[13:01] Boroondas Gupte: hi robin
[13:01] Robin Cornelius: Hey everyone
[13:02] Oz Linden: Everyone I had messages for is showing up.... Robin - next on my hit list is to unblock the Socks 5 stuff
[13:02] Boroondas Gupte: brb, my builld is whining about missing voice
[13:02] Robin Cornelius: i saw the state change on the curl lib
[13:02] Oz Linden: get libcurl updated
[13:03] Robin Cornelius: so thats complete? i can fetch a new version of curl to test now?
[13:03] Boroondas Gupte: hmm ... still no voice?
[13:03] Boroondas Gupte: whatever
[13:03] Oz Linden: I'd actually gotten the libcurl to build correctly before my vacation.... now I've gotta sort out build system issues to use it
[13:03] Oz Linden: the sort of thing that will be trivial once we actually have autobuild...
[13:03] Robin Cornelius: sure
[13:04] Robin Cornelius: Oz i have one other trivial nagging issue i wanted to raise
[13:04] Oz Linden: go for it
[13:04] Robin Cornelius: STORM jiras do not generate email updates
[13:04] Oz Linden: they don't?
[13:04] Boroondas Gupte: I get emails for them, I think
[13:05] Oz Linden: Hmmm....
[13:05] Robin Cornelius: On the jira-notify list?
[13:05] Boroondas Gupte: for the one's I've created, am watching or assigned to at least
[13:05] Boroondas Gupte: dunno about the list
[13:05] Oz Linden: ah... they may not go to the list
[13:05] Robin Cornelius: i mean jira-notify for every edit, i assume permissions
[13:06] Oz Linden: You're correct... the project configuration needs to be fixed
[13:07] Oz Linden: I don't know if we can do that before next week, but please file a STORM issue about it, and we'll get it changed.
[13:07] Oz Linden: The person who I know has permission to do that is on vacation this week
[13:08] Boroondas Gupte: brb
[13:08] Robin Cornelius: ok will do
[13:09] Robin Cornelius: should that not technicaly be a WEB, but i guess a STORM lands with your team so...i'l just do it
[13:09] Oz Linden: we may move it to WEB, but it'll be better if it comes from us
[13:10] Boroondas Gupte: Robin probably can't file STORM issues, or can she?
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: /me wants to bring up WEB-1560
[13:10] Oz Linden: A small update for you... I've been bugging the autobuild devs, and they say they'll put it out in public at the end of their next sprint (just over a week from now)
[13:11] Boroondas Gupte: cool
[13:12] Oz Linden: Signpost... do you have a URL for the javascript itself? That issue is not too specific about exactly which code you're referring to
[13:13] SignpostMarv Martin:
[13:13] Oz Linden: and is that everything that's needed?
[13:13] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi all.
[13:13] Oz Linden: Hi Tech
[13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: basically, yeah. I can't really put the code I have for onto github etc. as my code is a derivative work.
[13:14] Treminari Huet: Hello there
[13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: and it's not exactly nice to open-source a derivative work when there's no clear license attached to the original work
[13:15] Oz Linden: Yes, I see the problem.
[13:16] SignpostMarv Martin: there's also the issue that if anyone wants to have an SL map do anything else, they generally need to make a derivative work.
[13:16] Boroondas Gupte: WTFPL would probably best for stuff like this.
[13:16] Oz Linden: Please add a comment (or edit the description, if you can) to add that url to the issue.
[13:16] SignpostMarv Martin: I already did :P
[13:16] SignpostMarv Martin: right after you asked what the url was, lol
[13:18] Oz Linden: Great. It happens that I chair the committee that will have to approve that. I've assigned it to me, and will bring it up.
[13:18] SignpostMarv Martin: ^_^
[13:18] SignpostMarv Martin: oh, btw. I added OS Grid support to last night
[13:19] SignpostMarv Martin: had to cheat and use ground overlays because OS Grid doesn't use composited images
[13:20] Oz Linden: Anyone else have an issue that needs my attention?
[13:20] Ellla McMahon: Anyone recognise which Viewer version this is ?
[13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: Agni/OS Grid/WoW aren't in the main JS (refactoring ftw!)
[13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm. well I've not filed a jira for it,
[13:20] Ellla McMahon:
[13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: but I did notice that viewer 2 breaks data URIs as the profile website address
[13:21] Treminari Huet: I do but this is the first time Ive attended an office hours and just want to see how things go before I butt in with it :p
[13:21] Robin Cornelius: Oz i would love to create a STORM jira but i dont seem to be able to
[13:21] Boroondas Gupte: told you so :-P
[13:21] SignpostMarv Martin: don't know if anyone cares enough to fix that, since I only did a data URI web thing for lulz
[13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. data:text/html,<marquee>data URI FTW!
[13:22] Oz Linden: I believe that the problem with VWR-23410 is probably that they've added a new lib that they have not back-ported yet
[13:22] Oz Linden: File a WEB jira and give me the number, then Robin
[13:25] Robin Cornelius: WEB-3095
[13:26] Oz Linden: So... the next topic is what issues would people like to work on for the next sprint.... the planning for which is next Tuesday
[13:26] Boroondas Gupte: VWR-22044
[13:26] Robin Cornelius: the extending the day by 4-5 hours issue ;-/
[13:27] Boroondas Gupte: yeah, that too. Beginning my master thesis on 18th, so dunno how much time I'll have left for viewer coding.
[13:29] Oz Linden: Have you put together some sketches for that, Boroondas?
[13:30] Boroondas Gupte: A visual mock-up is attached to the issue.
[13:30] Oz Linden: the question will, I think, be how things are ordered when the two are combined
[13:31] Ellla McMahon: What about opening a Resident Profile and Group info at the same time. Or at least Profile > open Group Info > back button to Profile.
[13:31] Thomas Shikami: Ohh my, that'd be awesome
[13:32] Thomas Shikami: also, multiple tabs for the builtin browser maybe
[13:32] Thomas Shikami: the other way around as well please, group -> profile -back-button-> group
[13:33] Thomas Shikami: I know this feature is on hold, because there's fully web based group and resident profiles in the works
[13:33] Thomas Shikami: acquisition of avatars united
[13:34] Oz Linden: sorry... had a briefe RL interrupt there...
[13:34] Boroondas Gupte: well, that might take some time to bear public fruits ... no reason to stop deveopment until then
[13:34] Thomas Shikami: I guess if someone in the opensource community wants to take that task... go for it?
[13:34] Oz Linden: B... have you discussed the top bar item w/ Esbee? if not, I'll push it a bit
[13:35] Boroondas Gupte: I've brought it up at her OH, but she didn't comment on it, IIRC
[13:35] Thomas Shikami: ohh my, the grapes are ripe
[13:36] Oz Linden: The profile things are not going to be STORM issues now... there is another team working on those. Maybe I can get them to talk about what they're up to, though....
[13:37] Oz Linden: /me has graphic settings currently that hide the grapes... glad to hear they are working :-)
[13:37] Techwolf Lupindo: TPV are going to be forced to scrape web page to put profile functionally back in. :-/
[13:38] Thomas Shikami: as long as the profile functionality is available through legacy calls
[13:38] Oz Linden: or you could just put web rendering in, Tech - this won't be the last feature moved to the web
[13:38] Boroondas Gupte: Yeah, when moving anything to a webpage based solution, semantic web techniques should be used from the beginning so machine readability can stay ensured.
[13:39] Techwolf Lupindo: Even on viewer 2.x.x as many features requierd spiefic data from the web page.
[13:39] Boroondas Gupte: Web rendering imposes the website's layout to the viewer, which might not be matching its UI.
[13:39] Oz Linden: I agree, Boroondas, but don't know if that rule is being observed
[13:39] Thomas Shikami: html and http aren't protocols intended to be used for applications
[13:40] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz, rendering is not the problem, getting machine readable data from the web page is the problem.
[13:40] Oz Linden: Even if it isn't, you could always override style sheets though
[13:40] Oz Linden: Well, I'm sure that the existing profile apis will be suported
[13:40] Thomas Shikami: as the existing search api still works
[13:41] Boroondas Gupte: What if my (hypothetical) TPV displayes languages spoken (as indicated in the profile) above the avatar's head, like the nametag? That can't easily be done with stylesheets.
[13:41] Techwolf Lupindo: Example that used all the time, pull up profile, click the IM button to open an IM window/floater to send a messages to that person.
[13:41] Oz Linden: Please... don't start a search discussion... can't help at all with that
[13:41] Thomas Shikami: not going to, it was an example
[13:41] Oz Linden: thank you
[13:42] Techwolf Lupindo: Search is epic fail. The marketing folks took over search and ruined it. Have you actually try to buy anything off the new market place? I couln'dt finished an order due to it wanted to force me to buy $10,000L of items on the last page.
[13:42] Oz Linden: These are all good questions... I'll do some poking around and see if I can get someone to come talk with us about what's happening with profiles
[13:43] Oz Linden: I just said let's not go there, Tech
[13:43] Thomas Shikami: as long as 1.23.5 is supported I am not afraid of them disappearing any time soon
[13:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz, you just said that twice on my end after that...
[13:43] Oz Linden: Well, we don't have a target date yet, but 1.23 won't be supported forever
[13:44] Oz Linden: sorry Tech... (looking forward to chat lag fixes)
[13:44] Thomas Shikami: Can I ask questions in private as well?
[13:45] Oz Linden: sure
[13:45] Techwolf Lupindo: Are they working on group chat at all? Last I heared phillip annouced it was going to be worked on...havn't heard a thing for months.
[13:46] Oz Linden: Yes, there's quite a lot happening on that, but I don't know what that schedule looks like
[13:46] Thomas Shikami: They were going into the direction of XMPP, but I guess that's a rumor going around
[13:47] Techwolf Lupindo: To move on...i've help merov with fmod fixes....and today discovered that work sorta broke prebuilt builds as no one can access So i've been working on a fix that download direct from fmod as the liceince can only allow that.
[13:47] Oz Linden: /me carefully fails to rise to the bait
[13:47] Boroondas Gupte: ?
[13:48] Oz Linden: How does that work, Tech.. .they make a version available directly?
[13:48] Thomas Shikami: fmod 3.75 is no longer supported and has been dropped by the creator
[13:48] Techwolf Lupindo:
[13:48] Thomas Shikami: openal is the alternative
[13:48] Thomas Shikami: ahh thanks, I was looking for those URLs for so long already
[13:48] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me working on a single patch that fixes that for tpvs.
[13:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Phoenix will be the first tpv to have working FMOD without hacking it in. To my knowage taht is.
[13:50] Boroondas Gupte: Robin, quite some time ago, you mentioned some change you made to load custom skins. Can you attach that / link to it @ VWR-23306, please?
[13:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Downloadble skins was intruduced in emerald due to the file count was getting over 8,000 and 35MB in size.
[13:51] Techwolf Lupindo: Its not perfect and can be imporoved.
[13:51] Boroondas Gupte: That's GPL code, though, isn't it?
[13:51] Boroondas Gupte: Can't take that into viewer-development.
[13:52] Oz Linden: We can take anything if we've got a CA from the author (and nothing if we don't)
[13:52] Thomas Shikami: what was the exact license of viewer-development again, incl. version number?
[13:53] Oz Linden: Skins are a bit tricky from a product point of view...
[13:53] Boroondas Gupte: GNU Lesser General Public License 2.1, I think
[13:53] Oz Linden: we'd like to have a more powerful mechanism, but when we've done that in the past it has created large support problems
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: Ah my skin changes are in an internal LL branch
[13:54] Thomas Shikami: Yes, just checked, it's LGPL-2.1
[13:54] Thomas Shikami: afaik incompatible to GPL-2
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: i've been told they are wandering (slowly) towards snowstorm and was requested not to submit them directly in additon to prevent conflicts that need not to occur
[13:55] Boroondas Gupte: ah?
[13:55] Robin Cornelius: but in essence, skin loading works in v2.0 already, you need to fix about 5 lines of code
[13:55] Oz Linden: We'd certaily like to easily support skining that changes colors and such, but anything that changes layout or organization (yes, I know that's what you'd like) ends up causing problems when the skin isn't perfectly synced with the viewer version, or when the support staff can't see the skinned version
[13:55] Boroondas Gupte: mercurial should handle duplicate changesets fine, AFAIK
[13:55] Robin Cornelius: they will not be duplicate
[13:56] Robin Cornelius: they will be adapted enough to be conflict generating,
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: oh
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: well, we'll have to wait, then, I guess ^_^
[13:56] Robin Cornelius: basicly my code has been assilimated and is being changed and hacked about
[13:57] Thomas Shikami: ahh, we can upgrade LGPL-2.1 to GPL-2 or GPL-3
[13:57] Robin Cornelius: i can probably fix the said 5 lines and create a patch but i will not be pushing it in to Snowstorm
[13:57] Oz Linden: I have little visibility into that project at the moment.
[13:59] Boroondas Gupte: About the support issues ... can't we just say "If you want help, change back to the default skin."?
[14:00] Boroondas Gupte: It'd be the same as stuff in the Advanced menu. It's in the code, but not officially supported.
[14:00] Thomas Shikami: oh my, leaves are falling as well
[14:00] Boroondas Gupte: (Though, some stuff in the Advanced menu should become officially supported, IMHO, but that's another topic)
[14:02] Oz Linden: The problem with that approach is that by the time you realize that you need to say that, 1) you've already got an unhappy customer, and 2) you may have already spent a bunch of time/effort giving advice that does not apply. Unless you start every single support interaction with "are you using the default skin? ", which isn't such a great support experience either, you kind of loose
[14:02] Oz Linden: /me is proud of the falling stuff... my first significant LSL script
[14:03] Boroondas Gupte: How does support handle TPVs? That situation is similar, in fact.
[14:03] Oz Linden: Yes, somewhat similar, but it's more obvious to users that they are not using the SL viewwer when it's a different program
[14:04] Oz Linden: It's not by any means a closed issue, but it is a challenging one
[14:06] Boroondas Gupte: It'd be a shame if easy usage of skins was only possible with TPVs in the future.
[14:07] Oz Linden: Late arrivals... ni
[14:07] Oz Linden: hi
[14:07] Jessica Lyon: Hai!
[14:07] Jessica Lyon: >.<
[14:08] Jessica Lyon: had my times messed up
[14:08] Oz Linden: Well, I've picked up a couple of todos for future sessions.. always good
[14:08] Jessica Lyon: sigh @ missing everything :/
[14:12] Boroondas Gupte: wb
[14:12] Jessica Lyon: wb
[14:12] Oz Linden: that was an unintentional exit :-)
[14:12] Jessica Lyon: I never admit that
[14:12] Jessica Lyon: i never crash >.>
[14:12] Boroondas Gupte: What are these todos?
[14:13] Boroondas Gupte: (just wondering, as there were quite some different topics today)
[14:13] Oz Linden: let's see... fixing the notices, bugging Esbee about the menu bar, finding out about the profile changes,...
[14:13] Jessica Lyon: o.0
[14:13] Oz Linden: I'll log the archive for today
[14:13] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[14:14] Jessica Lyon: "... menu bar, finding out about the profile changes,..." re: v2 upcoming changes?
[14:15] Boroondas Gupte: menu bar:
[14:15] Treminari Huet: Hey Oz not what I came for today, but just a quick question,that just crossed my mind, I was curious is viewer 2's multi attach thats burried in the advanced menu available for TPV's?
[14:15] Oz Linden: well, what I was typing when I crashed was that I'm supposed to be making supper tonight, so I'm going to have to go real soon now
[14:16] Boroondas Gupte: profile changes: what will when and how move to something web based
[14:16] Jessica Lyon: nice
[14:16] Oz Linden: Treminari... it's in the LGPL code.
[14:16] Techwolf Lupindo: /me returns
[14:16] Techwolf Lupindo: Sorry, had a server issue I needed to take care of.
[14:17] Treminari Huet: Cool
[14:17] Oz Linden: ... and it would probably be a good idea for TPVs to move to that to avoid possible confusion
[14:18] Jessica Lyon: Phoenix is in the process of adding v2 multi attachments currently, and inventory links
[14:18] Boroondas Gupte: cool
[14:18] Treminari Huet: Nice
[14:18] Jessica Lyon: /me is on it now.. it's awesomesauce
[14:18] Jessica Lyon: but still very alpha atm
[14:18] Boroondas Gupte: Henry already backported those, hasn't he?
[14:19] Jessica Lyon: he did, though it was mostly incomplete
[14:19] Jessica Lyon: we've had to do alot of work on top of his
[14:19] Robin Cornelius: Jessica, what base is Phonix on, is it still 1.X (reading you are doing inventory links i think yes)
[14:19] Jessica Lyon: also, RLVa doesn't like it
[14:19] Jessica Lyon: 1.5
[14:19] Jessica Lyon: tonnes of RLVa work
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: 1.5 with a lot of criticail 2.x code backported in.
[14:20] Jessica Lyon: ^
[14:20] Robin Cornelius: what are you lot doing/do you consider about the GPL+FLOSS Exception and LGPL code?
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: Plus some code of mine, mainly texture fixes.
[14:20] Jessica Lyon: when we move to v2 we will, long term go lgpl
[14:20] Thomas Shikami: can't share code between them
[14:20] Jessica Lyon: our 1.5 is gpl though
[14:21] Oz Linden: LGPL code can be used in a GPL viewer
[14:21] Robin Cornelius: as far as i am aware you can use the LGPL code with the GPL+FE code as long as you do not exercise the one way GPL conversion option
[14:21] Jessica Lyon: right
[14:22] Thomas Shikami: I know LGPL allows upgrading to GPL2, but you won't have FLOSS exceptions for snowstorm code
[14:22] Techwolf Lupindo: One thing I notice in the 2.x source, is that if someone wanted to do it, can move the entire 2.x core base code into 1.5 and leave just the 1.5 UI core alone. Would take a while to do and have to fix all the UI elements that 2.x requires. But that is a huge undertaking.
[14:22] Robin Cornelius: exactly but you have that for the existing GPL code and do not need it for the LGPL as long as it stays LGPL
[14:22] Thomas Shikami: and Apache 2.0 license is compatible to LGPL3 and GPL3 only
[14:22] Oz Linden: YOu don't need to do that, since the FLOSS exception already explicitly allows LGPL code

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