User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Apr 9

[11:04] Which Linden: good morning sai
[11:04] Which Linden: hi morgaine!
[11:04] Which Linden: man, what is up with this sim?
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
[11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: and the owner is found by editing and looking at general info
[11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Loaded alex was the name
[11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey which
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: But you can't see that info, I thought greyed out
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Anyway, muting worked
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: was the first time for me, then I could see it. Maybe he managed to disable the info on first pass, or something
[11:06] Morgaine Dinova: I think you're too close to newbie area Which. :-)
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: eh love the Japanese train station sounds
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: airport?
[11:06] Which Linden: ha ha.... yeah I pretty much roll with the sound off
[11:07] Which Linden: it's super-surreal with it on, though
[11:07] Which Linden: it's all twilight, with weird sounds heard far away....
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: thing is I can almost understand it but not quite
[11:07] Which Linden: yeah, exactly!
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova: It's going to be imperative to have good griefing defences built in once interop starts becoming a reality. Morons breed faster than rabbits.
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: +1 Morgaine
[11:08] Which Linden: yes, definitely
[11:08] Which Linden: throttles for all requests
[11:08] Which Linden: resource limits, stuff like that
[11:09] Which Linden: so what'd we end our conversation with last week?
[11:09] Which Linden: oh right I dumped a bunch of links on multicast
[11:09] Which Linden: [1]
[11:10] Which Linden: I just wanted to point out, based on that link, that multicast group chat is, essentially, the same problem as ... group chat
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Not just automatic throttles when some limit is reached, but also more ability to detect things and disable things entirely. Server protection and client protection don't really have the same M.O., need rather different approaches.
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Looking
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Aimee :-)
[11:10] Aimee Trescothick: halo
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: When Aimee arrives, I always know I'm in a proper SL meeting :P
[11:11] Aimee Trescothick: rofl
[11:11] Which Linden: Hi Aimee. :-)
[11:11] Aimee Trescothick: just another groupie :D
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[11:11] Aimee Trescothick: hey :)
[11:11] Which Linden: I just pasted this link: [2]
[11:11] Aimee Trescothick: which must be in stealth mode, not showing on my scanner lol
[11:12] Which Linden: oh yeah I was in god mode to see what was up with the sim
[11:12] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[11:12] Morgaine Dinova: I don't have a scanner. Is there a good one to get? Preferably open source so I can learn.
[11:12] Which Linden: Hi Dahlia
[11:12] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
[11:12] Which Linden: :-)
[11:12] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Dahlia :-)
[11:13] Aimee Trescothick: hmm, I just have the standard mystitool :)
[11:13] Aimee Trescothick: nother reason scanners should be client side, linden spotting :D
[11:13] Dahlia Trimble: scanner for what?
[11:13] Aimee Trescothick: people
[11:13] Aimee Trescothick: well, people or plants ;)
[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: so multi-cast can be the scenario where chat clients rebroadcast the chat to others like a telephone tree?
[11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: calling tree*
[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: I made one of those scanner huds that rezzes drones that travel around the sim
[11:14] Which Linden: Yeah, I believe that in multicast all traffic is replicated
[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: but the drones get stuck
[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: ban lines :/
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: that would tend to help scaling I think
[11:15] Which Linden: Oh, wait, Sai, I misunderstood
[11:15] Which Linden: No, the clients don't rebroadcast, though that would be cool
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
[11:15] Which Linden: Multicast is handled at the router level
[11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK. Seems more secure and all that, but still for non-secure group chat would be useful I think
[11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Retransmits are end to end I assume, or does each router retain some small amount of recent state?
[11:16] Which Linden: Basically, as I understand it, multicast works by clients "subscribing" to a particular identifier, at which point they should receive all traffic addressed to that identifier
[11:17] Which Linden: If you've got a one-router system it's easy
[11:17] Dahlia Trimble: is that just for chat? does it work for udp object update packets as well?
[11:17] Which Linden: But if you have multiple routers, if one router gets a subscriber for multicast group A, it has to itself subscribe to A with all the other routers
[11:18] Which Linden: Dahlia: actually I think multicast is best for UDP streaming
[11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: can't UDP be end-to-end I thought that is what SL did
[11:18] Which Linden: Of course
[11:18] Morgaine Dinova: We're talking about reliable multicast though, not plain UDP.
[11:18] Which Linden: UDP can be singlecast or multicast
[11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: ah OK... :-/
[11:19] Which Linden: Adding reliability to multicast doesn't seem to be a solved problem
[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: wonders if it needs to be solved
[11:20] Which Linden: Gareth posted some links two weeks ago but I don't think any of them were to actual software packages
[11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Well in that case talk no more about it :-) I hope some lessons have been learned about UDP recently.
[11:21] Which Linden: heh heh, :-)
[11:21] Which Linden: Overall I see four major architecture families possible for group chat.
[11:22] Morgaine Dinova: makes a coffee while waiting for the four ...
[11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: blarg I must have been using a PPC-only vrsion of Omnigraffle. Just downloaded a new version and its 5-10x faster
[11:22] Which Linden: 1) "push" -- where each client has a presence record that the server can look up in order to deliver a message to the user. Used by the current group chat system, also SMTP is like this
[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: push is used now?
[11:23] Which Linden: 2) all-messages-everywhere, wherein each message gets replicated to all servers and they selectively send it to their subscribers. Multicast is like this, as is IRC.
[11:24] Which Linden: Dahlia: yeah, when you send a group chat message the chat server looks up which region you're in and does a POST to the sim process
[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: the poor overworked chat server :(
[11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: what is the diff between push and the second? That the lookup of servers is done per-message?
[11:25] Which Linden: 3) server-per-group, where each group is physically located on a particular server and if you want to listen to multiple groups you have to listen to multiple servers
[11:25] Which Linden: 3 would be what we'd implement if we used message broker software
[11:25] Squirrel Wood: lowest traffic method ?
[11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Wait for 4) :-)
[11:26] Aimee Trescothick: heh
[11:26] Which Linden: Sai: with the first each subscriber is looked up periodically whereas with 2 the subscribers are retained in the memory of each server
[11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, so its really almost the same thing: one big list consulted once, or more granular lists consulted more often
[11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: for case 2 and case 1
[11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: or that might not be right either
[11:28] Which Linden: 4) is the best one actually because it doesn't exist. This is one where the servers all share a distributed routing table, but each client pulls messages from a single endpoint. Upon reflection this might not be all that different than 1
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: seems they are all variations on each other in some sense
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: but I guess they'd have to be
[11:29] Which Linden: Sai: I think the difference between 1 and 2 is more about the client's behavior -- does the client actively poll a server or does it just stick a record and wait for incoming connections
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: It's a nice property of clouds that they don't have any bugs :P
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: just a matter of how many arrows point where
[11:29] JayR Cela: hi
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: hey JayR
[11:29] JayR Cela: sorry i late
[11:29] Which Linden: They're totally all variations of each other
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya J
[11:30] Which Linden: Hi JayR
[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: so for 4 the client may poll a different server than the current sim?
[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: Hi JayR
[11:30] Which Linden: Morgaine: agreed; the magical storage solution is quite temptinh
[11:30] Which Linden: since it's so magical
[11:30] JayR Cela: hi everyone *bigg huggs* :_)
[11:30] Squirrel Wood: Hilo
[11:31] Which Linden: Dahlia: actually in my mental model the "client" is never the viewer but is always some server in the system -- either an agent host or the sim host..... but it doesn't conceptually change anything
[11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Which, I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned the location of the iterator (*where* the iteration through group memberships list is done) in your breakdown.
[11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: seems ot me that can live in multiple places, Morgaine
[11:31] Which Linden: Morgaine: oh...well, in some of the models there is no explicit iterator
[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: oh so the "viewer" / sim protocol wouldnt change
[11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, which is why I think that's a good basis for classification
[11:31] Which Linden: like....2 doesn't have an explicit iterator
[11:32] Which Linden: Oh, ok!
[11:32] Which Linden: I agree!
[11:32] Which Linden: That is a good way to categorize them
[11:32] Which Linden: So in 1 the iterator is the chat server host
[11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: well, it does, it iterates over all subscribed servers and THEY iterate over the clients (I think)
[11:32] JayR Cela: this new viewer clint works pretty good / cept for crashing when i change outfits
[11:33] Squirrel Wood: hmm.. one central server that remembers which sim subscribes to which channels. each sim remembers which player subscribes to which channels and only polls those. ?
[11:33] Which Linden: Sai: you could imagine it not having to explicitly iterate over the subscribed servers but that's a good point
[11:33] Morgaine Dinova: JayR: haven't you heard? The new client makes a fashion assessment now whenever you change outfits, to determine if you are worthy. :P
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:33] Which Linden: Squirrel: that sounds like a hybrid of 1 and 3..... which is cool
[11:33] JayR Cela: Morgaine / I usually am low prim
[11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: it might be faster to "send to all" but unless there's some kind of direct hardware, there's a phase where it decides where to send
[11:34] Squirrel Wood: I think that would be a solution that could work
[11:34] Aimee Trescothick: next one will include laundry assessment, crashing you if you don't change often enough
[11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: whether its in one layer of teh stack or another (assuming I understand that term)
[11:34] JayR Cela: i crashed 10 or 12 times yesterday
[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: eeks! I've been wearing this for 2 weeks already :(
[11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: blarg JayR
[11:35] Squirrel Wood: My pixels are always fresh and clean :p
[11:35] Which Linden: Squirrel: I think it only gives a constant factor benefit since there's only a constant number of agents on a simhost (roughly speaking)
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: thinks it's time to go shopping
[11:35] JayR Cela: yeah I think so was around noon time
[11:35] Squirrel Wood: nods.
[11:35] Which Linden: Oh man Aimee I'd be so pwned
[11:35] Which Linden: has had the same outfit for 2 years
[11:35] Morgaine Dinova: I think it's a very bad idea to be talking about sims in relation to group chat. There is nothing about sims that is in any way associated with chatting. They should be separate concepts.
[11:35] Aimee Trescothick: lol relax, it works the opposite way for plants :D
[11:36] JayR Cela: things seem to be very stable right now
[11:36] Aimee Trescothick: other end of the carbon cycle
[11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: well, you have either a subscription list at the client<=> server level, or at the server<=>sim<=>client level
[11:36] JayR Cela: i want to compile a new client
[11:36] Squirrel Wood: message from user to sim, to central chat server to all sims that listen on the particular channel to the particular users.
[11:36] Squirrel Wood: local chat is handled by the sim
[11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: with separate subscription lists for those different <=>
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Squirrel: that is totally wrong
[11:37] JayR Cela: having a few problems with the correct library's
[11:37] Squirrel Wood: private channels that don't "leave" the sim could also be handled locally
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Sims have more than enough work already
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Last thing they should be involved in is group chat.
[11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: local chat AND group chat eventually handled by sim
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Makes no sense
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Where is the logic of coupling sims and chat servers?
[11:37] Which Linden: Morgaine: sure, maybe not sims per se but the client is connecting to some sort of server
[11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: the scenario right now is: server<=>sim<=>viewer
[11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Which: that is different though
[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: some sims can be quite overloaded, does IM get any priority? like higher that scripts?
[11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: where there's a one to many between server and sim, and sim and viewer
[11:38] Which Linden: So we can talk about server<->server<->viewer or server<->viewer
[11:38] JayR Cela: i thought we got over this issue / group IM
[11:39] Which Linden: Dahlia: I think IM consumes a trivial portion of sim resources
[11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: JayR AL group IM solutions have problems
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Not even begun, JayR
[11:39] Which Linden: JayR: ha ha, we'll never truly get over it
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well we won't get over it if people do daft things like making sims do chat.
[11:39] Squirrel Wood: I doubt that 40+ players in a sim can chat up such a storm that the sim couldn't handle it :p
[11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: WHich, seems to me that the decision-making process of which message to send to which describer would overload either the central server ot the sim or both, depending on the traffic
[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: I was wondering if IM delays could be caused by excessive scripts
[11:40] Which Linden: Yeah it's really more of a code modularity question rather than a workload question w.r.t sims
[11:40] Which Linden: Dahlia: possibly, but that would be because the scripts are hosing the sim's framerate to the point that all networking has trouble
[11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Here we have a lovely independent concept that isn't coupled to sims logically, and so it's easy to relieve sims of its load. And yet, what do people do? Give the work to the poor sims. Jeez
[11:41] Squirrel Wood: distributed workload
[11:41] JayR Cela: ok i repeating myself on this IM thing / but you may want to read this
[11:41] JayR Cela: [3]
[11:41] Morgaine Dinova: Which: you need some more analysts in LL, someone's not got their eye on the ball when designing for scalability.
[11:41] JayR Cela: as far as I am concearned is a no brainer
[11:41] JayR Cela: is open source
[11:42] JayR Cela: modd it and bring into the client
[11:42] JayR Cela: if server code need / than do that to
[11:42] Aimee Trescothick: which it is that?
[11:42] JayR Cela: whats the bid deal
[11:43] JayR Cela: big deal
[11:43] Which Linden: What's with the plywood?
[11:43] Which Linden: oh! other side
[11:44] Morgaine Dinova: That diagram look like the one you showed last week and the week before Sai
[11:44] Which Linden: lots o bots
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: can you turn on fullbright?
[11:44] JayR Cela: ok / i got to bring this up / I want Flash as the main video source
[11:44] Which Linden: I think that XMPP is architecture 3
[11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry was experimenting. Maneuvering this thing is odd. one axis seems disabled
[11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Talking of bots, is Enus in today, Which? We were talking about the SVN server being down with Enus, but he was too busy to look into it yesterday.
[11:45] JayR Cela: I want Flash
[11:45] Which Linden: no idea if enus is in or not
[11:45] Which Linden: I'm not in the normal office
[11:45] JayR Cela: Quicktime is not good
[11:46] Which Linden: What's up with the svn server?
[11:46] Morgaine Dinova: How about Rob? Rob was willing to look at it too a few days ago when I mentioned it to him
[11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, paste the error message for Which pls
[11:46] Aimee Trescothick: Rob will be about for the open source hour later
[11:46] JayR Cela: well the main web page is flash / why not the client
[11:46] Morgaine Dinova: No scripts here, so don't see the office hours info
[11:47] Aimee Trescothick: more likely to get flash once the webkit work is done I guess
[11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: that's part of my prototype GUI for multi-agent pyogp
[11:47] Which Linden: nice sketchy ui
[11:47] JayR Cela: flash works on just about everything
[11:47] Which Linden: Aimee: yeah exactly
[11:47] Aimee Trescothick: still sees plain white prim, guess it's a very early prototype :D
[11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Which: in a nutshell, Sai's getting 500 Internal Server Error on commits
[11:47] JayR Cela: so kill QuickTime
[11:47] Which Linden: JayR acutally not --- no phones suport it for example
[11:48] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, but I can't see anyone doing work on that till webkit is in
[11:48] Which Linden: It's pretty much only browsers
[11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: wow look at that I can't move the box in the correct direction
[11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: is that because its an attachment/
[11:48] JayR Cela: ok mabey i wrong
[11:48] Aimee Trescothick: is pretty sure her phone has flash support :)
[11:48] Which Linden: lemme enable object creation and scripts
[11:48] Which Linden: see if the sky falls in
[11:49] Morgaine Dinova: Flash isn't going to work for VWs unless you stick to the open source subset anyway, and since Flash designers won't do that, it's a recipe for VW breakage.
[11:49] JayR Cela: hmmmm
[11:49] Aimee Trescothick: oh noes the sky is falling
[11:49] Which Linden: yeah.....the whole media integration thing is going to take a long time to get truly right
[11:49] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah I guess it was because attachment manipulation is different in some way
[11:49] Morgaine Dinova: Oooh, tasty space invaders :-)
[11:50] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: oh yeah, te space invaders minimap?
[11:50] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, Enus is on!
[11:50] Which Linden: Is there a skin to do the space invaders thing? WANT
[11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: is it interactive?
[11:51] Aimee Trescothick: :D it's dependent on a patch I just submitted
[11:51] Which Linden: ha ha ha, nice
[11:51] Squirrel Wood: there's no squirrels.
[11:51] Aimee Trescothick: zooms the markers up when you zoom in further than you can now
[11:51] Which Linden: oh...otherwise they're too small to see?
[11:51] Aimee Trescothick: I should post the invader icons on the issue as well :D
[11:52] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[11:52] Aimee Trescothick: they,re visible, but a bit small :D
[11:52] Which Linden: this has been bugging me for a while -- what do the yellow minimap icons mean?
[11:52] JayR Cela: haaa
[11:52] JayR Cela: i still play Zelda
[11:52] Aimee Trescothick: LOL
[11:52] Squirrel Wood: friends
[11:52] Aimee Trescothick: that's people on your friends list
[11:52] Squirrel Wood: that are on your friend list
[11:52] Which Linden: oh! hm....I guess that means I don't have as many Linden friends as I'd thought
[11:53] Aimee Trescothick: can hover over people to see their names and right click for profiles as well in recent trunk
[11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Awww :-)
[11:53] Which Linden: wah, sounds great
[11:53] JayR Cela: well ya nixed me wich
[11:53] Which Linden: I love the minimap
[11:53] Which Linden: What'd I do JayR?
[11:53] Aimee Trescothick: :) I'm poking it about a bit at the moment, it seems long neglected clode
[11:54] Aimee Trescothick: and code too
[11:54] JayR Cela: oh i sorry / u still there
[11:54] Which Linden: ha ha ha
[11:55] Aimee Trescothick: [4] I'll drop the invader icons on there too in a bit :D
[11:56] Morgaine Dinova: In Philip's new community browsers, Aimee's going to make all avs within her sensing distance render as space invaders :P
[11:56] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[11:56] Which Linden: aside from the copyright issues that's totally sweet
[11:56] Aimee Trescothick: I just need a bunch of bots to move side to side in rows ...
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: is there going to be a place to download binaries of the community viewer?
[11:57] Which Linden: drop down one line, change direction, speed up!
[11:57] Which Linden: Dahlia: I believe so
[11:57] Morgaine Dinova: I'm looking forward to that new viewer project, although I'm a bit worried that it may end up so controlled by LL in terms of what's allowed in that it'll be pointless.
[11:57] Aimee Trescothick: community viewer builds are getting put on S3 already I think
[11:57] Which Linden: I kind if imagined them going up on the regular downloads page, but that's just my idea, they may go with something different
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: have a url?
[11:58] JayR Cela: this current viewer works pretty good for me
[11:58] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, it's a tough balance, it either ends up too restricted or you get a "horse designed by committee viewer"
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: ya I like the RC but I want the invaders :)
[11:58] JayR Cela: i am using Ubuntu 8.10
[11:59] JayR Cela: yesterday was crashing constantly / but 2day seems OK
[11:59] Aimee Trescothick: I think I saw the http-texture automated builds on the sldev-commits list
[11:59] Which Linden: yeah the http-texture builds are the Philip ones
[11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: that's why I asked Philip about 1 branch versus multiple branches. If there are builds along several branches, each horse might hopefully have only one head :-)
[11:59] Aimee Trescothick: heh
[12:00] Which Linden: But then....are you gonna combine them later? Grafted-together hyrda horse?
[12:00] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[12:00] Morgaine Dinova: No need to combine --- nothing wrong with multiple choices.
[12:00] Which Linden: I think Steve Jobs would disagree with that
[12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, but he's evil
[12:01] Aimee Trescothick: well, use a proper dvcs as merging gets a bit easier :)
[12:01] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed ... Hg would rock
[12:02] Dahlia Trimble: OpenSim does pretty well with one trunk and many committers
[12:02] Which Linden: yeah....the http-texture branch is in hg IIRC
[12:02] Which Linden: btw: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2540
[12:02] Morgaine Dinova: That's already Imprudence's logo
[12:03] Which Linden: \m/
[12:03] Which Linden: I should run off
[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:03] JayR Cela: ok who here is using imprudence client ?
[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: me too, lunch time :)
[12:03] Which Linden: I'm gonna disable object creation and scripts so that this place isn't trashed when I get back
[12:03] Morgaine Dinova: [5]
[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: by all :)
[12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Same logo
[12:03] Aimee Trescothick: bye :)
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: See you all :-)
[12:04] Which Linden: Peace the heck out, thanks for coming
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Is Rob's meeting now?
[12:04] Aimee Trescothick: just uploading the Minimap Invaders now :)
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks you Which :-)
[12:04] Which Linden: Good talking with y'all.
[12:04] Aimee Trescothick: it's at 2 I think
[12:04] Which Linden: Woo aimee!
[12:04] JayR Cela: ok / byee & thanks :_)
[12:04] Aimee Trescothick: :D

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Apr 9

Navigation menu

Search