User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081001

• [13:29] DrFran Babcock: Halllooooo
• [13:29] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
• [13:29] Connected undefined:
• [13:30] Whump Linden: Hey folks, good afternoon.
• [13:30] Warthog Jun: ohhh pretty picture
• [13:30] Tammy Nowotny: hey Whump!
• [13:30] Teravus Ousley: hi
• [13:32] Whump Linden: So far no one has complained to me about giant UML diagrams on my land. :)
• [13:32] DrFran Babcock: haha
• [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: its all the rage these days
• [13:32] Whump Linden: UML is the new Steampunk.
• [13:32] Whump Linden: Mark my words.
• [13:32] Tammy Nowotny: LOL
• [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: but that is itneresting. THe sequence diagram is bright red to me. and 99% undreadable
• [13:32] Warthog Jun: did to
• [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: undreadable*
• [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: unreadable*
• [13:33] Whump Linden: hum, Saij, what viewer?
• [13:33] Tammy Nowotny: the red may be a proerty line actually
• [13:33] Tammy Nowotny: I have a red stripe swooping across it on my screen
• [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Second Life 1.21.3 (97611)
• [13:33] IntLibber Brautigan: hey all
• [13:33] Whump Linden: okay
• [13:34] Audoa Giha: Sorry for the spam
• [13:34] Whump Linden: so I had three items on the agenda:
• [13:34] Tammy Nowotny: but with the new network ad policy who knows what's allowable. I got warned for a land for sale sign this afternoon
• [13:34] Whump Linden: 1) Instant Messaging
• [13:34] Whump Linden: 2) LLSD questions
• [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: waves
• [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hand
• [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: ooh ooh!
• [13:35] Whump Linden: and 3) Morgaine's question, which I think was a policy clarification.
• [13:35] Teravus Ousley: Saijanii.. try turning off 'highlight transparent'
• [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm. wasn't on but you neverknow
• [13:35] Whump Linden: oh, it's PNG, I wonder if it decided the white was alpha
• [13:35] Asterion Coen: /hello folks
• [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: er, where is highlight transparent?
• [13:36] Teravus Ousley: I figured it out. It's a scripted object
• [13:36] Tammy Nowotny: now it just turned red for me for a second,.. back to normal now
• [13:36] Whump Linden: yes, it did
• [13:36] IntLibber Brautigan: turned red for me too for a sec
• [13:36] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. yep.. me also.
• [13:36] Whump Linden: Tammy, I changed the color for a sec to see if it was an alpha transparency from the PNG.
• [13:36] Whump Linden: it was
• [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: huh. Didn't know I had that on
• [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: is white for me too now
• [13:36] Whump Linden: I need to re-read how to turn that off
• [13:37] Asterion Coen:  :)
• [13:37] Teravus Ousley: :D
• [13:37] Whump Linden: okay: 1) Group Instant Messaging
• [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. My point was simply to promote implemetning the *current8 IM group thing in the AD
• [13:38] Whump Linden: Saijanai, can you make that a proposal JIRA and assign it as a child of [1]
• [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: there's been a lot of talk about how we can do it better, etc, by using more standard IM protocols like IRC or whatever, but fact is, the gridnauts aren't a community while bebopping around the OGP grid which would be a Very Good THing by itself
• [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll summarize my pithy, cogent, and insightful comments and let people move to the next discussion
• [13:39] Whump Linden: [2] is where we're collecting ideas for the next part of the beta.
• [13:39] Whump Linden: okay
• [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: has a new thesarus ;-)
• [13:39] Tammy Nowotny: is there an IRC chat going on now? (like last week at Dahlia's?)
• [13:40] Whump Linden: Tammy, no IRC bridge
• [13:40] Tammy Nowotny: thanks Whump
• [13:40] Whump Linden: we'd need a scripted object for that
• [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: or a bot
• [13:40] Asterion Coen: /(oh, irc still exist?) ^^
• [13:40] Whump Linden: if folks know of a good one, let me know
• [13:41] Whump Linden: okay 2) LLSD questions
• [13:42] Tammy Nowotny: hopes to find out what the acronym LLSD stands for by listening to the discussion
• [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: LInden Lab Standard Data
• [13:42] Whump Linden: Eddy Stryker had a question about unsigned ints.
• [13:42] Tammy Nowotny: Tahnks Sai
• [13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: sorry I dont do sign language
• [13:42] Whump Linden: [3]
• [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: *structured Data
• [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: [4]
• [13:43] Whump Linden: Infinity responded to that last night and she's in another meeting at the moment so I can forward comments or questions.
• [13:44] Whump Linden: But I think the gist of it is that the place where unsigned integers are passed around are in the UDP packets, and not LLSD messages over TCP.
• [13:45] Whump Linden: However if Eddy's interested in defining UDP messages in terms of LLIDL (which is an abstraction of LLSD) then "we should talk."
• [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: are there new UDP packets defined? THought they ware all TCP objects coming out, now
• [13:46] Whump Linden: Infinity is finishing up writting LLSD/LLIDL as an Internet Draft for submission to the IETF.
• [13:46] Whump Linden: Saij, there's still UDP messaging between the sim and the viewer after teleport.
• [13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: right. I meant new packet definitions
• [13:47] Teravus Ousley: Well.. I think he's just trying to make it simpler and more human readable.. for example.. Event Queue messages.. don't really fit that 'readable' requirement because of the Base64 component
• [13:47] Teravus Ousley: .. particularly with EnableSimulator.. Crossed.. and Teleport finish
• [13:47] Whump Linden: okay, it'd be worth updating [5] with those examples
• [13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Would we substitue the wiki text description for XML-LLSD in EQG?
• [13:48] Catherine Pfeffer: hi, office hours already finished, i guess ?
• [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: just started
• [13:48] Catherine Pfeffer: ooops sorry
• [13:48] Whump Linden: Catherine, no, we're on topic two of three.
• [13:49] Whump Linden: Saij, now I'm acronym challenged, EQG is?
• [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Event Queue Get
• [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: right now, everything is passed as XML-LLSD. Is Eddy talking about wanting to send it in the LLIDL format?
• [13:50] Whump Linden: LLIDL's just the abstraction, XML is the bits on the wire.
• [13:50] Whump Linden: There's Infinity.
• [13:50] Tammy Nowotny: hello Infinity
• [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: KK, was just wondering. The wiki description could probably work as its own format on the wire too, but not sure
• [13:51] Teravus Ousley: Hello
• [13:51] Whump Linden: Hi, Infinity, we're talking about the unsigned ints question.
• [13:51] Infinity Linden: hola... had a few minutes.. thoguht i would hang here for a moment
• [13:51] Asterion Coen: /hello princess
• [13:51] Infinity Linden: oh good
• [13:51] Infinity Linden: i have about 9 minutes before i turn into a pumpkin
• [13:52] Audoa Giha: Hi, Infinity
• [13:52] Tammy Nowotny: bizarrely, there are a finite number of integers in the data standard :-)
• [13:52] Infinity Linden: so what messages are we talking about?
• [13:52] Tammy Nowotny: well not so bizarrely :-)
• [13:52] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. so I think Eddy is trying to make it more human readable.
• [13:52] Asterion Coen: /let's wish him good luck in that mission
• [13:53] Teravus Ousley: base64 components.. should be used for purely binary data.
• [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: well I guess I misunderstood the topic. thought it was XML-LLSD vs LLIDL
• [13:53] Teravus Ousley: .. anyway.. that's my take on it.
• [13:53] Teravus Ousley: pictures
• [13:53] Teravus Ousley: binary blobs.. etc.
• [13:53] Infinity Linden: well.. peronally.. my take on this is... if you want to base64 encode your integers int he XML serialization, be my guest
• [13:53] Infinity Linden: but we may not be able to decode them
• [13:54] Infinity Linden: the only data type in LLSD that explicitly says is base64 encoded is binary, btw
• [13:54] Teravus Ousley: well.. I think the purpose was to not have to base64 decode anything but definately binary
• [13:54] Infinity Linden: but the question i have is... why do we need unsigned ints?
• [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: that was what I was sondering. the wiki examples in the text format look like they could be substituted for xml-LLSD without any problems, and 50% smaller for the smaller packets
• [13:54] Infinity Linden: what part of the system currently defines a transfer syntax that identifies things as uints?
• [13:55] Infinity Linden: remember... UDP messages ARE NOT defined with LLSD
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: right. though they come through the EQG in LLSD-XML with the same overall format
• [13:56] Teravus Ousley: Well EventQueueGet is one such example where things are weird.
• [13:56] Teravus Ousley: .. 64 bit integers are binary blobs.. IP Addresses are binary blobs..
• [13:56] Infinity Linden: uh... in LLSD?
• [13:57] Infinity Linden: there are no 64 bit ints in LLSD
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: in UDP
• [13:57] Infinity Linden: UDP .NE. LLSD
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: I know ;-)
• [13:57] Teravus Ousley: .. well.. EventQueueGet is 'supposed' to be LLSD. ;D
• [13:57] Whump Linden: Maybe one of the next steps is to look at the EventQueueGet message...
• [13:57] Infinity Linden: hmm.. i haven't seen the LLIDL for it
• [13:59] Teravus Ousley: uuid: AgentID, Int: LocationID, Base64: SimIP, Base64: RegionHandle, String:SeedCapability, int:SimAccess.
• [14:00] Infinity Linden: Base64 is not a valid LLSD type
• [14:00] Teravus Ousley: you're right.. binary
• [14:00] Infinity Linden: okay.. what's the problem?
• [14:00] Infinity Linden: you have 32 bits represented by an int
• [14:00] Infinity Linden: (i'm guessing)
• [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: U32 I think
• [14:00] Infinity Linden: i hven't looked at the mulib code recently
• [14:01] Teravus Ousley: notes that he's pretty Sure Eddy is trying to make it more readable
• [14:01] Infinity Linden: he also mentioned a severe time penalty for decoding the base64
• [14:01] Infinity Linden: i'm thinking that (in theory) you should be decoding the transfer syntax once
• [14:02] Infinity Linden: and base64 is probably about as slow as a atoi()
• [14:02] Teravus Ousley: obviously.. you wouldn't know by the LLIDL that you have to express the regionhandle 'big endian'
• [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: thats only in UDP though so its no germane (Ihope)
• [14:02] Infinity Linden: yes you would, 'cause you would have read the RFCs that define network order
• [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: well, in UDP the endian switches depending on location and type
• [14:03] Whump Linden: I'm going to suggest that someone add "Review the EventQueueGet Message" as a proposal to [6]
• [14:03] Teravus Ousley: well the EventQueueGet is a service.. and it has several messages
• [14:03] Infinity Linden: so why are people looking at the transfer syntax anyway?
• [14:03] Whump Linden: er, messages
• [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Something jhurlman (Eddy Striker) was doing
• [14:03] Teravus Ousley: so far.. lots of them are difficult do decode by looking at them.
• [14:03] Infinity Linden: remember.. LLSD does not equal the XML Serialization
• [14:04] Infinity Linden: XSLT?
• [14:04] Teravus Ousley: I'd give you some examples.. but I didn't exactly come prepared to discuss this.
• [14:05] Infinity Linden: people tend not to complain that SSH packet dumps are "hard to read"
• [14:05] Teravus Ousley: are you making the claim that it's supposed to be obfuscated?
• [14:05] Infinity Linden: krunk... i have to turn into a pumpkin. let's continue the discussion on the JIRA
• [14:05] Whump Linden: okay, maybe I can catch Eddy in IRC and get more information from him so that Teravus doesn't have to involuntarily proxy for him.
• [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: well, via SLproxy or the non-0existent PYOGPproxy, they wouldn't be
• [14:06] Infinity Linden: no... i'm making the claim that transfer syntaxes aer routinely difficult to read
• [14:06] Whump Linden: or as Infinity said above ^^^^
• [14:06] Infinity Linden: i mean.. we could have defined everything in ASN.1/BER
• [14:06] Infinity Linden: also... a concrete example of code changes would be helpful
• [14:06] Teravus Ousley: Hey there Eddy
• [14:07] Whump Linden: Hey Eddy
• [14:07] Infinity Linden: also... i'll be around at Zero's Office Horus tomorrow
• [14:07] Infinity Linden: but i gotta run right now
• [14:07] Teravus Ousley: eh.. Eddy just got here..
• [14:08] Asterion Coen: /let's all say "hi" to eddy
• [14:08] Tammy Nowotny: hi Eddy
• [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: yo
• [14:08] Teravus Ousley: yeah.. well.. *sigh*
• [14:08] Eddy Stryker: hello
• [14:08] Orion Shamroy: Buttered toast?
• [14:08] Whump Linden: Eddy, if you can add some more info to [7]
• [14:09] Eddy Stryker: i don't know what else there is to say beyond <key>CreationTime</key><binary encoding="base64">wn3iSAAAAAA=</binary><key>LastLoginTime</key><binary encoding="base64">9H7iSAAAAAA=</binary>
• [14:09] Teravus Ousley: I was hoping to get Eddy talking to Infinity.. but it seems dispite that.. Infinity left
• [14:09] Whump Linden: yes
• [14:10] Whump Linden: getting info into the JIRA. And I'll add it to the list of proposals for SVC-3159
• [14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, an entirely different issue than what I thought. and certainly a point
• [14:10] Whump Linden: and once the Internet Draft comes out there'll be broader feedback
• [14:11] Teravus Ousley: well.. the draft was targeted for Thursday..
• [14:12] Teravus Ousley: .. and the idea was to get the last bit of requirements in there.. before the draft was published.. so.. saying 'I'll be available tomorrow at the Zero meeting' is sort of.. inneffectual unless you don't want to be open to making any changes.
• [14:13] Teravus Ousley: .. anyway.. that's my take on it.
• [14:14] Tammy Nowotny: nods
• [14:15] Whump Linden: I can't change Infinity's mind, but with more information, it would be easier to make the arguement.
• [14:15] Whump Linden: Okay, move on to 3?
• [14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: must run. Staying here to log chat or you can add to wiki while I'm gone, Whump
• [14:16] Whump Linden: Morgaine isn't here, but I think this was a question that came up during Zero's office hours last week about agent domains.
• [14:17] Whump Linden: Saij I can wiki or send you a notecard.
• [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: KK bye all
• [14:17] Whump Linden: By Saij, thanks
• [14:17] Tammy Nowotny: cyas Sai
• [14:17] Teravus Ousley: take care
• [14:17] Whump Linden: er, bye
• [14:17] Audoa Giha: By Saij
• [14:17] Whump Linden: I'm not taking Saijanai's name in vain.
• [14:19] Teravus Ousley: doesn't really recall the item that Moraine brought up
• [14:19] Whump Linden: okay, back to three, this was just a policy clarification, at the moment we're only supporting the LL Agent Domain for teleports into the Linden Lab OGP-enabled sims
• [14:20] Whump Linden: but several people had asked us to clairify that, so I'll update the OGP FAQ
• [14:21] Orion Shamroy: As in technical / help desk support or programatic support?
• [14:21] Whump Linden: As in connections.
• [14:21] Whump Linden: as well as support
• [14:22] Orion Shamroy: But it will still work in both ways? Wherein one can port from Opensim to LL, then from LL to Opensim?
• [14:22] Teravus Ousley: well, he's talking about outside agent domain interaction with LL Sims, I think
• [14:23] Whump Linden: yes
• [14:23] Teravus Ousley: like.. for example.. someone downloads Tao's Agent domain.. and tries to log in to an LL Simulator
• [14:23] Teravus Ousley: . using it.
• [14:24] Orion Shamroy: I see. <<blushes and zipps his mouth shut>> :)
• [14:24] Whump Linden: yes, this is one of those things that will need advocacy from the gridnauts and AWG communties
• [14:25] Whump Linden: okay, any other items or questions?
• [14:25] Teravus Ousley: one news item..
• [14:25] Whump Linden: yes
• [14:26] Teravus Ousley: I've updated the HTTP Server in OpenSimulator. It's a bit untested.. so I'd suggest holding off on updating it for a week or so until it's slightly more tested.
• [14:26] Whump Linden: okay
• [14:26] Tammy Nowotny: thanks Teravus
• [14:26] Teravus Ousley: .. otherwise you might run into general OpenSimulator related issues.. and the issues you run into won't be isolated to OGP.
• [14:26] Audoa Giha: ty
• [14:26] Teravus Ousley: Give it about 7 days.. and we'll have the bugs worked out.
• [14:27] TUX Hultcrantz: is there any testing that would help you - on a small grid?
• [14:27] Whump Linden: Leyla is working on the unfinished draft three bits related to signout, so maybe next week we could do a sprint to sync up?
• [14:27] Teravus Ousley: sounds reasonable Whump.
• [14:28] Whump Linden: cool
• [14:28] Teravus Ousley: Well.. if you're interested in general testing TUX.. you're free to give it a try.
• [14:28] Whump Linden: Strelock, you're a Drupal developer?
• [14:28] TUX Hultcrantz: Drupal++ :)
• [14:28] Teravus Ousley: We're just looking for people willing to test out the various use cases of OpenSimulator.. with the new HTTP Server in place.
• [14:29] Teravus Ousley: .. but If you do run into an issue.... it likely won't be specifically OGP related.
• [14:29] TUX Hultcrantz: ok
• [14:29] Whump Linden: okay, I can also bring up a different branch on my EC2, but probably not until Friday or next week.
• [14:30] Whump Linden: okay, thanks for coming out folks, see you next week
• [14:30] Teravus Ousley: well.. also.. hopefully friday, I'll have EventQueueGet enabled and working well.. so you can use the latest client also
• [14:30] Audoa Giha: Take Care all
• [14:30] Teravus Ousley: Take care :D
• [14:31] Whump Linden: I'll post the transcript to the wiki in a few min.
• [14:31] Tammy Nowotny: TY Whump!
• [14:31] Teravus Ousley: Thanks for hosting
• [14:31] Whump Linden: you're welcome
• [14:31] Teravus Ousley: :D
• [14:31] Tammy Nowotny: I learned a few things today, and found about about a whole bunch of other things I still need to learn
• [14:31] Whump Linden: argh, one other thing, there's a panel on Interop during Orange Island's innovation week this Friday at 1:30
• [14:31] Strawberry Fride: so there is :)
• [14:32] Whump Linden: Gigs, Zha, G2, G2 Robin, and Strawberry will be discussing, and I'm moderating.
• [14:32] Strawberry Fride: kinda hoping there will be just a few less acronyms, though my translator just about handled this evening's session
• [14:32] Asterion Coen: /thats the prob with computers, more u learn, more u see u dont know anything :)
• [14:33] Audoa Giha: LOL Yes
• [14:33] Whump Linden: [8]
• [14:33] Teravus Ousley: nods and recalls the message on the mailing list.
• [14:33] Tammy Nowotny: heheh... it's fun
• [14:33] Teravus Ousley: cool :D
• [14:33] Tammy Nowotny: O have to make it over to Orance Ilsand this week
• [14:33] Tammy Nowotny: and I have to elarn to type
• [14:33] Whump Linden: so drop in if you get a chance, there are a bunch of good panels
• [14:34] Audoa Giha: good it is open :)
• [14:34] Tammy Nowotny: I will!
• [14:34] Tammy Nowotny: byee
• [14:35] Teravus Ousley: take care
• [14:35] Audoa Giha: bye all
• [14:35] TUX Hultcrantz: Thanks! everyone
• [14:35] Strawberry Fride: okie folks - thanks for the session. I feel almost up-to-date on the latest fun :)
• [14:35] Strawberry Fride: laters ppl
• [14:35] Whump Linden: have a good one