User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 03

[13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zero :-)
[13:05] Zero Linden: hello all
[13:05] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Rex
[13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Good Morning Teacher
[13:05] Harleen Gretzky: HI Zero
[13:05] Rex Cronon: hello zero
[13:05] Dahlia Trimble: greetings Zero :)
[13:05] Zero Linden: heh - I was just teaching Go in the office over lunch
[13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: bows to the True Sai
[13:05] Zero Linden: uhm, at only 8 kyu, I don't think so....
[13:05] Tao Takashi: Hi Zero!
[13:06] Zero Linden: though - a Sai avatar and clothes would be awesome
[13:06] Zero Linden: surely someone has done it
[13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: glances at his t-shirt
[13:06] Tao Takashi: Sai: I am trying to refactor the login script a bit
[13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hooray
[13:06] Zero Linden: ah yes
[13:06] Tao Takashi: thinking about a class for each packet which can decode it
[13:06] Zha Ewry: Hey Zero
[13:06] Tao Takashi: it might also serve as an example of using the zope component arch
[13:07] Zero Linden: Oh... Zope....I remember looking at Zope
[13:07] Tao Takashi: Zope2 I guess if it's a while back
[13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm. Was thinking along the lines of what libsl does. A routine to decode the dictionary (when its done)
[13:07] Zero Linden: poor Arwan is stuck under the floor!
[13:07] Tao Takashi: remove the floor ;-)
[13:07] Tao Takashi: oh wait, we would fall down
[13:07] Tao Takashi: bad idea
[13:07] Arawn Spitteler's: occassionally clever.
[13:07] Tao Takashi: tp him up! :)
[13:08] Zero Linden: well -- Agenda? 1) Summer hours
[13:08] Zero Linden: 2) new TP diagrams
[13:08] Arawn Spitteler: Teleportation is what chairs are fo
[13:08] Rex Cronon: i see arawn sitting
[13:08] Tao Takashi: so next step would then to find out how the message template corelates to the packet format ;-)
[13:08] Tao Takashi: but I did this once so I geuss I will find out again
[13:08] Tao Takashi: I wonder if MPEG-V has any relevance
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: 3) test harness
[13:09] Zero Linden: well - the horrible hash is gone gone gone
[13:09] Zero Linden: 4) MPEG-V
[13:09] Sheet Spotter: gave you asset state transitions.
[13:09] Tao Takashi: that's good :)
[13:09] Morgaine Dinova: Agenda topic stemming from chat in groupies IM: how is OGP going to handle prim objects created by 3rd party worlds? After all, VWs aren't going to stand still with the prims invented by LL, so interop needs to handle new forms.
[13:10] Zero Linden: 5) OGP and object formats
[13:10] Zero Linden: okay - that sounds like a full plan
[13:10] Zero Linden: So
[13:10] Tao Takashi: after my discussion with Robin about TMs I wonder how naming will change when the OGP is in place ;-)
[13:10] Zero Linden: 1) Summer Hours
[13:10] Dahlia Trimble: object formats?
[13:10] Tao Takashi: but that's a different discussion
[13:11] Zero Linden: okay, Tao - rename agenda item 5....
[13:11] Zero Linden: :-)
[13:11] Tao Takashi: maybe I understood now the difference between SL and SLG though ;-)
[13:11] Zero Linden: So - Starting June 10th - though July 10th - I'll be either on vacation, or only partially in the office and so won't be making my office hours with certainty
[13:11] Zero Linden: HOWEVER
[13:12] Zha Ewry: Vacation?
[13:12] Zero Linden: I've put out a call and there will be guest Lindens running these two time slots the whole time --
[13:12] Zha Ewry: Coool
[13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Great!
[13:12] Zero Linden: --- Mostly because Tess agreed to take any ones left over!
[13:12] Zha Ewry: oooh
[13:12] Zero Linden: So far, we've got Hamilton coming to talk about inventory
[13:13] Zero Linden: and Xan Linden to talk about permissions
[13:13] Zero Linden: I'll have a schedule up on my home page on the wiki before I go
[13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Tnx Zero
[13:14] Zero Linden: And yes, vacation - though I'll be working a week out of Boston in the middle of it
[13:14] Zero Linden: okay
[13:14] Zero Linden: 2) New teleport diagrams
[13:14] Zero Linden: has everyone seen this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman
[13:14] Zero Linden: ?
[13:14] Zero Linden: I don't think it has changed in the last week, but we haven't discussed it
[13:15] Zero Linden: I'm still (sigh) getting it into Draft 2
[13:15] Zero Linden: of the OGP spec
[13:15] Zero Linden: (staring at the XML editor next to my SL window)
[13:15] Zero Linden: If you haven't - please read ... comment... etc....
[13:16] Tao Takashi: result = yo_seed_cap()
[13:16] Zero Linden: and - I don't think a design for "I wanna come to region X" RegionX: "uhm, well, really, why don't you start at region Y"
[13:17] Zero Linden: I don't think that is there.... take a crack at it.... if anyone wants or has particular ideas on it
[13:17] Zha Ewry: peeks at it after before
[13:17] Zha Ewry: I've looked at it at least twice
[13:17] Zero Linden: okay
[13:17] Zero Linden: well - I didn't have anything particular - just that it is going from strawman to draft this week - so my fingers are ready to accept your input!
[13:17] Zha Ewry: (and 90% of my attention is on why my opensim is not getting a valid region to the client on teleport)
[13:17] Arawn Spitteler's: click on URL is borked in 1.19.0, atm: I remember Avaria used to have such a feature
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: i think I added that into the classic protocol diagram. Just a conditional test in a loop back
[13:18] Ky Aska: Sorry, teleport sickness, I guess
[13:18] Tao Takashi: so you are talking about a redirect basically?
[13:18] Dahlia Trimble: Zha do you see a big hole where the sim should be?
[13:19] Zha Ewry: Oh no
[13:19] Zha Ewry: A Crashed client
[13:19] Zero Linden: Fie! Fiddlesticks! Billions of Biltering Barnicles!
[13:19] Zero Linden: Thundering Typhoons
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: something along those lines 3.1 Choose sim: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Image:Second_LIfe_Login_UML2.png
[13:19] Zero Linden: (can you tell we are reading TinTin books at home?)
[13:20] Zero Linden: no -- this is more of a region level redirect
[13:20] Morgaine Dinova: I thought you were pasting your passphrases :-)
[13:20] Zero Linden: but we didn't want to do it with an HTTP redirect -
[13:20] Tao Takashi: I didn't meant to say HTTP redirect ;-)
[13:20] Zero Linden: after all, the sim isn't saying "no no, you have an old URL for me"
[13:20] Zero Linden: it is saying "Er, not quite so fast, you need to start in our lobby region first"
[13:20] Flight Band: All Go
[13:21] Tao Takashi: so the region is saying this or the agent domain?
[13:21] Zero Linden: region
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: right, that's where theoptional third stage of login comes in.
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: between login and TP
[13:21] Zero Linden: right now - in login.cgi - the login script (eeeeek - it's perl!?!?!?!!!!!)
[13:21] Arawn Spitteler: The Region, or Subgrid, would be telling the AD which whom it might speak
[13:22] Zero Linden: the script is actually doing essentially two jobs: "where am I gonna let you take this avatar" AND "is that region gonna let you in"
[13:22] Tao Takashi: so the latter is based on which conditions? trust is one I guess
[13:22] Zero Linden: "Subgrid" sounds like something in a William Gibson novel
[13:22] Zha Ewry: Heavily rlated but not identical tasks
[13:22] Tao Takashi: we should call it region domain :)
[13:23] Zero Linden: related, but really from two very different perspectives
[13:23] Tao Takashi: but redirecting has nothing to do with trust then I guess
[13:23] Tao Takashi: as then it should be more forbidden in general
[13:23] Ky Aska: Zero, you're making it sound like the school bully trying to send you to a classroom!
[13:23] Tao Takashi: so what's a use case for redirecting?
[13:23] Zero Linden: well, yes and no --- I don't know why the region (domain) is rejecting my request to go to "AcmeLabsResearchA" and insiting I start at "AcmeLabsVisitorCenter":
[13:24] Zero Linden: is it trust? is it policy?
[13:24] Tao Takashi: sort of like Orientation?
[13:24] Zero Linden: right
[13:24] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:24] Tao Takashi: but the whole region domain should also be able to say "no!"
[13:24] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if there's a significant difference, between this, and a school bully sending you to the class-room: If you're to pay admissions, who's to tell you you may not sneak into the exit?
[13:25] Rex Cronon: crashed:(
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: and, optional things like local group IM, local currency, local inventory, etc., would all be dealt with during this phase
[13:25] Zero Linden: the trust comes in where my Agent Domain says to me: "Ya know, You're in a region called 'Pwnd' in a Region Domain I've never heard of..... I'm not gonna accept attachments from it"
[13:25] Ky Aska: Is the same mechanism used for prohibited teleports after you're in? (Like trying to go to Orientation or warp between the adult and teen grids... or a closed teen account to the main grid. Or a million other similar things >_>)
[13:25] Arawn Spitteler: If you're entering this space, this is the environment you may be located relative to.
[13:25] Zero Linden: Tao - oh yes - certainly "Go away" is a reasonable response
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Yep
[13:26] Zero Linden: as is "500 internal server error: critical db overload!"
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Tho, "Do kindly move on, good sir" might be more polite
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: scram
[13:26] Tao Takashi: so that sounds like request_rez_avatar needs to return something clever for redirecting
[13:26] Zero Linden: ah, that is a 422 or some such? :-)
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Scarm is http: 666, Recactor overload
[13:26] Sheet Spotter: I don't see error codes reflected in the diagrams. :-)
[13:27] Zero Linden: yes - the diagrams are not complete or normative.... hence the coming draft
[13:27] Tao Takashi: which could look like 'goto': something
[13:27] Tao Takashi: or "forbidden"
[13:27] Zero Linden: holds breath waiting for the obligatory "Goto considerd harmful" paradoy
[13:28] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think this is a behaviour that we can predefine, there are zillions of possible things that could occur on TP to a new region. Just define the event callback and leave it at that. The lobby is a bad idea ... it's just one example of a transition structure, and all such actions shouldn't be modelled on a physical lobby.
[13:28] Sheet Spotter: What tool was used to create the UML diagrams?
[13:28] Tao Takashi: Zero: I am awaiting this aswell ;-)
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: and, throwing in his OCD-inspred thing, any grid-specific stuff would be handled during this phase
[13:28] Ky Aska: Hm... if it's the region doing redirects, that opens up things like using a psudoregion to do load balancing between several copies of an area, wouldn't it?
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Ombegaffe
[13:28] Zha Ewry: Transition regions are one, common use case, tho
[13:28] Arawn Spitteler: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: OmneGraffe
[13:28] Zero Linden: Morgaine can you think of a transition structure that would not be handled by the requested destination sim saying "no, go here instead"?
[13:28] Tao Takashi: so how do we address a certain region anyway?
[13:29] Tao Takashi: is it a URL?
[13:29] Tao Takashi: looks like it
[13:29] Tao Takashi: so then it can be {'goto' : regionurl}
[13:29] Tao Takashi: maybe with position
[13:29] Zero Linden: yes (thinks this in the draft...) yes - the assumption is that each region has a single, public entry URL
[13:30] Alaya Kumaki: it can be a url becasue when it happened , i just change region, and ask a gain and it works
[13:30] Zero Linden: and that URL is a sort of public seed cap - from which you can request the "rez_avatar/reqest" cap
[13:30] Getty Watanabe: you are such a cute furry
[13:30] Arawn Spitteler: thinks: SLURL is a request to a subgrid, how how to implement is a subgrid feature
[13:30] Tao Takashi: missing concept: "subgrid" ;-)
[13:31] PHC Zyngo: (Free) <207:129>: Chalkdsut Kwak has won L$50 with 92600 points.
[13:31] Tao Takashi: I should make an animation for that
[13:31] Zero Linden: tries to silently shoo "subgrid" out of the room while pointing at the placard saying "Region Domain"
[13:31] Zha Ewry: Region Domain
[13:31] Arawn Spitteler: Just as estates exist on Linden Servers, and Linden Labs is the estte holder for Mainland, every region of an open grid would belong to a subgrid
[13:31] Zha Ewry: Which may or may not be the same as your current region domain
[13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: REgion Domain-specific issues
[13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I rather think a physical "go here instead" would be a rather rare type of transition structure, compared to pre-checks such as based on membership checking or general state validation. "Go somewhere else" is pretty odd.
[13:32] Zha Ewry: and may not be on the same trust policy as yoru current, or your agent domain
[13:32] Dahlia Trimble: Region Domain Region Domain Region Domain Region Domain
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: or geometry or topology
[13:32] Morgaine Dinova: It's like everything done with computers should revolve around a desktop. Wrong
[13:32] Zha Ewry: Collection of relate dregions
[13:32] Ky Aska: What if it doesn't CARE where you go, as long as you don't go to it?
[13:32] Alaya Kumaki: and usually i cant witout closing the client, the region domain where im in, wont let me go out by flying either
[13:32] Tao Takashi: but isn't request_rez_avatar some sort of pre-check?
[13:32] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I'm still groping for another type of structure that would use a different kind of response than "go here instead"
[13:33] Zero Linden: Ky - then it says "go away" or "no" or "Pbbbbbbt"
[13:33] Arawn Spitteler: If you want a college diploma, you should see the registrar, to sign up for classes. The Regstrar would be your real perspective, while the Diploma is your ultimate goal.
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: access denied ni a loud mechanical voice
[13:33] Tao Takashi: an alternative would be to ask the region domain for a list of allowed locations but that might be huge
[13:33] Zero Linden: we just wanted to have a common way for it t be able to say, "uhm, please enter the door on your left"
[13:33] Getty Watanabe: lol @ mechanical voice
[13:33] Tao Takashi: and you stil don't know how they are grouped
[13:33] Ky Aska: Ah, I see.
[13:33] Sheet Spotter: Does the client need to validate a redirect? The analogy I am thinking of is a web site redirecting you to an evil site.
[13:34] Arawn Spitteler: I want to go to Grasmere 178, 112, 27, so the systems sends me to OI as a first step
[13:34] Tao Takashi: Sheet: the client can ask you and your agent domain could eventually deny it
[13:34] Zero Linden: wonders if he can fit <respone style="voice: mechanical;"> into the doc....
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Sheet, that's a client choice the protocol shoudl permit
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as its in the same region domain, we assume its a "good" site
[13:34] Zero Linden: Sheet - YES - i think that is a very good point a
[13:34] Zero Linden: and one that we should make clear
[13:34] Tao Takashi: well, if it's "regionurl" it can be anywhere
[13:34] Tao Takashi: how would you also know from a URL in which domain it is?
[13:35] Zero Linden: we expect the Viewer to notify the user and ask for validation
[13:35] Tao Takashi: "MUST" :)
[13:35] Zero Linden: (thugh I can imagine viewers that keep lists of regions for which the user said "and don't frickin' ask me again!")
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, true
[13:35] Tao Takashi: is there some identification for region domains then?
[13:36] Tao Takashi: like can I ask some webservice what regions are available to get those URLs?
[13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: that question was raised on SLDEV yesterday I thin
[13:36] Tao Takashi: I guess I probably missed something again in the draft ;-)
[13:36] Zero Linden: I thought that you'd do seomthing like this:
[13:36] Arawn Spitteler: I'd think that a service of Linden LAbs, as Grid Maintenance.
[13:36] Zero Linden: as region URL for the "region-domain" cap
[13:37] Zero Linden: use region-domain cap to ask for "check_region" cap
[13:37] Zero Linden: use check_region to ask region domain if original region is really in that domain
[13:37] Zero Linden: do this for two regions
[13:37] Zero Linden: if the region_domain cap is the same
[13:37] Zero Linden: and the region_domain's check_region cap says "yes, that's one of mine" to both
[13:38] Zero Linden: then - they are in the same domain
[13:38] Zero Linden: is trying to avoid needing some cert just for this case
[13:38] Tao Takashi: ok, that sounds good. this means then that there is some cap for the region domain in general
[13:38] Tao Takashi: this might also serve list of regions then
[13:39] Zero Linden: right - so each region has a well -known URL which is a seed-cap, as does each region domain
[13:39] Sprinkles Abramovic: wassup
[13:39] Zero Linden: but rather than have to have identifiers for regions and remember the region-domain cap / region name pair
[13:39] Ky Aska: "region domain"?
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: new name for grid server
[13:39] Sprinkles Abramovic: what ya'll doing
[13:40] Zero Linden: we thought it was simpler to just remmber the region's cap
[13:40] Tao Takashi: I still wonder if I like caps though ... ;-)
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: hey sprinkles, this is a meeting to discuss thedesign for Second LIfe at a programming level
[13:40] Sprinkles Abramovic: lol
[13:40] Sprinkles Abramovic: cool
[13:40] Tao Takashi: ok, so "goto" might do the redirect, "forbidden" might deny it
[13:41] Zero Linden: Well, in this context, cap == URL for a web service
[13:41] Zero Linden: there is nothing obfusicated about 'em
[13:41] Tao Takashi: that sounds better and might save some roundtrips
[13:41] Zero Linden: OKAY- I want to get to the other agenda items
[13:41] Zero Linden: 3) Test Harness
[13:41] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: That's enus's baby
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: has to go pick up son for airport trip in a few
[13:42] Zero Linden: and he's not here
[13:42] Tao Takashi: at least his AV is here
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: looks at the LInden standing behind the post
[13:42] Tao Takashi: but it's maybe an empty shell ;-)
[13:42] Flux Cortes: hes made out of candy
[13:42] Enus Linden: looks up
[13:42] Arawn Spitteler: Pay no attention, to the lindens behind the curtain
[13:42] Tao Takashi: it's not :)
[13:42] Zero Linden: D'oh! He is here
[13:42] Tao Takashi: test harness, Enus! :)
[13:42] Zero Linden: test harness - yer up
[13:43] Enus Linden: sai, can you grap the wiki url?
[13:43] Tao Takashi: we maybe need some use cases written down what that test harness is going to do
[13:43] Enus Linden: indeed Tao.
[13:43] Tao Takashi: so we try to reach the same goal eventually ;-)
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWG_Test_Harness
[13:43] Dahlia Trimble: a test harness for the test harness?
[13:43] Enus Linden: so the plan, is that AWG will work with LL to build a python based test harness to test the OGP implementations
[13:43] Morgaine Dinova: A grap is somewhere between a grep and a grab.
[13:43] Tao Takashi: actually I was thinking about unit tests for the test harness ;-)
[13:43] Enus Linden: as documented
[13:43] Zero Linden: All test frameworks should have self-tests!
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: was reading thatin the REfactoring book today
[13:44] Zero Linden: They are actually often the hardest to write
[13:44] Enus Linden: so the idea is that Zero et al publish docs, AWG and various lindens build out a library based on those docs
[13:44] Tao Takashi: what grid is vaak anyway?
[13:44] Zero Linden: (as they force you to do things like test capturing exceptions... etc...)
[13:44] Zha Ewry: We also need some bits to do the AD as a test
[13:44] Tao Takashi: where can I see me being logged in with that script?
[13:44] Sprinkles Abramovic: wht happened to waterhead
[13:44] Enus Linden: and run tests out of that library
[13:44] Ky Aska: Zero, but do the self-tests need tests?
[13:44] Enus Linden: Tao: vaak is an internal dev grid
[13:44] Zero Linden: Ky - should be the same, no?
[13:45] Ky Aska: Yeh, but going all recursive is more fun.
[13:45] Dahlia Trimble: watches Enus fall into the recursive test black hole
[13:45] Tao Takashi: so I guess I cannot see what that script is doing then
[13:45] Enus Linden: in general it is set to gods only access, and rarely are non internal accounts on such a grid
[13:45] Enus Linden: my role in the test harness is primarily to facilitate
[13:45] Tao Takashi: ah, but I can go on there with that AD login?
[13:45] Enus Linden: and to move things along when they slow
[13:46] Enus Linden: right now i await a license decision before i can open up an hg repo with some start scripts and such
[13:46] Tao Takashi: and we need to discuss the structure and find out how to work together with hg
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: once the licensing is worked ou, we can expect OPenSimm and libsl folk to do some work with it
[13:46] Arawn Spitteler: doesn't care, what happened to Waterhead; he had a class to teach in Spirit City, at Noon on Friday: The Scientific Method subjects every theory to a smoke test, in an unknown future; All smoke tests are smoke tested, eventually.
[13:46] Enus Linden: Zero, and feedback on design and goals that you happen to have is quite welcome
[13:46] Zero Linden: (woot! ht!)
[13:46] Zero Linden: (er, hg!)
[13:46] Tao Takashi: as I have no idea ;)
[13:47] Enus Linden: i'm hoping to be able to share code today, but i have yet to find the person i need to speak with : )
[13:47] Arawn Spitteler: Hg? I doubt we're discussing Mercury.
[13:47] Tao Takashi: Enus: So for me the login is now running and the event queue print loop as well
[13:47] Tao Takashi: now I am refactoring it to print more about those packets
[13:47] Tao Takashi: also as example of how to use the ZCA
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: hg is the mecurial command line
[13:47] Zero Linden: (hg = Mercurial - a distributed source code control system)
[13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Arawn: mercurial
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: tao you have EQG working?
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: or do yo mean UDP?
[13:48] Tao Takashi: that part which was commented out is working now
[13:48] Enus Linden: Tao has some great ideas for design, sai's legacy login code was rather helpful in helping me get to the point where we have a python script that can log into the aditi hosted agent domain, and can rex an avatar on a separate grid
[13:48] Tao Takashi: UDP
[13:48] Tao Takashi: sorry :)
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK. I have EQG working, but don't know how to get it to DO anything (like group IM)
[13:48] Tao Takashi: I first want a good structure before I experiment more with it ;-)
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: also, we need to wait for an ack it seems before using EQG. Sometimes EQG stalls
[13:49] Enus Linden: i'll send mail to sldev and sai will no doubt let AWGroupies know when we can start playing with code and ideas more
[13:49] Tao Takashi: and trying to make the code more readable (if that's possible given how packets are formatted)
[13:49] Tao Takashi: I guess we might need some Linden help there then
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: told you it was an OMG it worked ship it bit of code
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: jhulriman probably knows more than anyone
[13:50] Tao Takashi: I will also try to play a bit around with hg to get a feel how you best setup a project with it as svn like setups probably do not work
[13:50] Tao Takashi: Enus: sound good :)
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: keeps his spam list ever ready
[13:51] Zero Linden: okay - moving on? 4) MPEG-V -- anyone know anything about it?
[13:51] Tao Takashi: well, I looked at some PDFs
[13:51] Tao Takashi: what they are trying to do seems to be similar to OGP
[13:51] Ky Aska: So, in SLGOGP Draft 1, it mentions http status codes. Perhaps it's time to specify 402? :)
[13:52] Tao Takashi: and they have some list of requirements, like "avatar should be able to move from VW1 to VW2"
[13:52] Tao Takashi: it's also an official MPEG project it seems
[13:52] Tao Takashi: the only problem for me is that it's unclear who is working on it and how/where
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: do they have the two-way coms defined?
[13:52] Tao Takashi: and what the MPEG process means
[13:53] Tao Takashi: they have nothing defined yet
[13:53] Tao Takashi: they have requirements and in July there is a deadline for a call for requirements
[13:53] Tao Takashi: whatever that means
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, seems to me that its all just VRML on steroids unless yo can send data back out
[13:53] Tao Takashi: not necessarily
[13:53] Tao Takashi: they think about VWs as we do I think and also about a protocol between them
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Alissa Sabre was pooh pooh it a bit. Said the MPEG-21 and her group SLC? 29 were more relevant
[13:53] Tao Takashi: but it seems not to be too decentral as in AD/RD
[13:53] Zero Linden: Well, I've met Dr. Yesha
[13:54] Zero Linden: So - it doesn't seem grounded in any actual work... which distrubs me
[13:54] Tao Takashi: so Dr Yesha should communicate more on the list if they want to get things done IMHO ;-)
[13:54] Tao Takashi: yes, it sounds like some Philips guy is the main person behind it
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: tooting same horn. Without same way of providing 2-way feedback, its not a virtual 8world*
[13:55] Tao Takashi: and they mention WoW and SL etc. but I wonder if they contacted those vendors to talk about it
[13:55] Tao Takashi: but they maybe know how to standardize, maybe synergy would be good but it depends on how much they want to get involved here
[13:55] Tao Takashi: and if that's the best way
[13:55] Zero Linden: I've been contacted by Dr. Yesha - but rather recently -
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: well, they DID ask for feedback/participation
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: on SDEV
[13:56] Zero Linden: we weren't asked to participate as far as I know
[13:56] Tao Takashi: yes, but when I asked question nothing came back
[13:56] Tao Takashi: and they did not even send the PDF with the requirements but only the overview which was rather thin
[13:56] Tao Takashi: I found that other PDF on the MPEG website
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: lanugage problem? SLDEV mesages getting lost?
[13:56] Tao Takashi: but it's unclear how to actually work together with them
[13:56] Tao Takashi: if that's actually a goal
[13:56] Zha Ewry: It looks to me like someone who is looking for new things to standardize without much of a understansding of what it is
[13:57] Zero Linden: Okay - well then I suggest that we remain open to collaboration there - but doesn't look like something we'd hope on right now
[13:57] Tao Takashi: I agree
[13:57] Morgaine Dinova: It's Darwin in action. Don't worry about it, it sorts itself out automatically :-)
[13:57] Zero Linden: heh
[13:57] Zero Linden: okay then
[13:57] Tao Takashi: well, they might have a standard at some point which nobody implements ;-)
[13:57] Zero Linden: In three minutes (fie)
[13:57] Zero Linden: 5) OGP and .....
[13:57] Zero Linden: did someone have a better term than "object formats"?
[13:57] Tao Takashi: apple pie
[13:57] Rex Cronon: i don't think that 3 minutes is enought to talk about OGP
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: thingies?
[13:58] Zero Linden: 'cuase so far this just seems like a standard case of content type negotiation at startup of connection to a region
[13:58] Rex Cronon: prim types?
[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Well, the topic is really about object extensibility in the protocol
[13:58] Zero Linden: right
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: geometry types
[13:58] Sheet Spotter: asset formats? :-)
[13:58] Zero Linden: there was an item someone wanted on the agenda
[13:58] Zero Linden: about that
[13:58] Zero Linden: but i wasn't clear on exactly what it was
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: there's geometry/prims, assets, scripts, what else might be grid-specific?
[13:59] Alaya Kumaki: its an assortiment of things
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: avatar appearance
[13:59] Ky Aska: Systems for the encoding of data related to virtual worlds in conjunction with an interconnected storage and transmission system!
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: MPEG-V in oher words
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: but using a working system as a model
[13:59] Morgaine Dinova: It's a bit too late to deal with it now. But the general theme was that prim and other object types aren't going to be static, so the evolution needs to be handled in interop.
[14:00] Zero Linden: right - and normally most systems do this by defining how content-type is negotated and leaves the details to later
[14:00] Tao Takashi: can be part of a service catalogue maybe
[14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: gotta run all, take care
[14:01] Zero Linden: the only issue for us would be when and at what level of granularity do we negotiate
[14:01] Rex Cronon: bye sai
[14:01] Tao Takashi: basically the same as content-type negotiation
[14:01] Morgaine Dinova: We don't want to get into the really bad situation of having to update client because of "Incorrect protocol version" as the protocol wasn't extensible.
[14:01] Zero Linden: right - in fact from the point of view of the current system, each asset type is essentially a specific mime-type
[14:02] Tao Takashi: so a normal LL object can be lindenlab/primobject ?
[14:02] Tao Takashi: or something like this
[14:02] Tao Takashi: well, maybe not that way..
[14:02] Zero Linden: right - or perhaps something more like application/x-secondlife-prim
[14:02] Tao Takashi: yes, more like that :)
[14:02] Zero Linden: or image/jpeg2k
[14:02] Zero Linden: (is that the registered type?)
[14:03] Ky Aska: Get out of my head, Zero Linden. I was typing the exact same type out for prims.
[14:03] Tao Takashi: then it should be easy to extend this
[14:03] Tao Takashi: of course you still might need a client update in case it does not know application/x-taotakashi-superobjects
[14:03] Zero Linden: image/jp2 --- actualy
[14:03] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if prims can cross borders?
[14:03] Tao Takashi: and of course you also want that update ;-)
[14:04] Zero Linden: see - Ky - it makes sense to wear your tinfoil hat when in the presence of a Linden!
[14:04] Zha Ewry: or very blonde hair
[14:04] Zha Ewry: Blonde hair works well, I find
[14:04] Ky Aska: Eh, I bet you just piggybacked on Randal Munroe's connection.
[14:05] Zero Linden: now has Julie Brown in his head
[14:05] Zha Ewry: grins
[14:05] Zha Ewry: e-ticket ride and all
[14:05] Tao Takashi: everybody has somebody in his/her head today?
[14:06] Zha Ewry: whistles a little of trapped in the body of a white girl and looks totally bemused and late for her next meeting
[14:06] Squirrel Wood: flings acorns at Zero :p
[14:06] Sheet Spotter's: head is empty.
[14:06] Tao Takashi: looking at the message format I remember those blocks...
[14:06] Morgaine Dinova: So, having received an object with a previously-unknown MIME type through the protocol, presumably the data is then handled by plugins obtained from the originating organizations ... would be nice if that were automated though.
[14:06] Zero Linden: okay -
[14:06] Zero Linden: ON THAT NOTE
[14:06] Tao Takashi: guess dissecting that again is nothing for a night
[14:06] Arawn Spitteler's: head is all full of himself: Oh, Zero, before you go on Vacation, I want your children, to cook up Phillips heart for me.
[14:07] Zha Ewry: Gotta run
[14:07] Zero Linden: I don't think we're going to put "trust me... the plug you want to handle this 3d object data is here, on this server, just down load it... really...."
[14:07] Zha Ewry: or tp
[14:07] Ky Aska: Morgaine, that leave serious security issues open. For example, say I sent an application/x-not-a-virus-i-swear item and a plugin which is, to a well-known system?
[14:07] Zero Linden: Arawn? Are you chanelling the Witch of the Waste from Howl's Moving Castle or some such?
[14:08] Zero Linden: notes that the web has this facility for plug-ins ---- and almost no one uses it
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: sure, there are security issues. We have to find a way to minimize them. Avoiding handling new objects is not an option.
[14:08] Arawn Spitteler: Witch of the Waste? She lives in Venezuela. I'm just cooking up my usual plans, to save the world, and one millenium is not a lot of time.
[14:09] Zero Linden: right - we can handle new objects - but we don't have to have to protocol lead you to the download...
[14:09] Zero Linden: heh
[14:09] Zero Linden: okay all
[14:09] Zero Linden: I must go
[14:09] Sheet Spotter: Thank you for this hour, Zero.
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Zero
[14:09] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[14:09] Zero Linden: See ya'll Thursday morning
[14:09] Tao Takashi: yes, thanks Zero :)
[14:09] Ky Aska: Run plugins in a sandbox.
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Have a good hol :-)
[14:09] Alaya Kumaki: byby
[14:09] Squirrel Wood: Have a nice day ^^
[14:09] Ky Aska: Yeh, bye, Zero!
[14:09] Rex Cronon: enjoy your vacation
[14:09] Harleen Gretzky: take care Zero

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 03

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