User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 10

[2008/06/10 12:59] Tess Linden: Hey everyone. Zero's at a dentist appointment, and said he would be late, so I'm here instead
[2008/06/10 13:00] Tao Takashi: poor Zero
[2008/06/10 13:00] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Tess
[2008/06/10 13:00] Tao Takashi: but that reminds me...
[2008/06/10 13:00] Rex Cronon: hey tess
[2008/06/10 13:00] Dahlia Trimble: Hi Tess :)
[2008/06/10 13:00] Tao Takashi: Hi Tess
[2008/06/10 13:00] Franko Dodonpa: hi tao :) good evening
[2008/06/10 13:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Och. BTW, for those that haven't seen it: Chat log from AW Groupies meeting this morning: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWGroupies-2008-06-10
[2008/06/10 13:00] Tao Takashi: Good evening Franko :)
[2008/06/10 13:00] Cryogen Crimson: sorry!
[2008/06/10 13:01] Tao Takashi: this soccer game is rather boring...
[2008/06/10 13:01] Milosh Glasgow: hi croyo;-)
[2008/06/10 13:01] Milosh Glasgow: cryo lol
[2008/06/10 13:01] Lukas Mensing: really boring? you mean greece sweden?
[2008/06/10 13:01] Tao Takashi: yes
[2008/06/10 13:01] Lukas Mensing: greeks are not as good as last time
[2008/06/10 13:02] Lukas Mensing: well, I m not really ...how to say
[2008/06/10 13:02] Lukas Mensing: I am swedish
[2008/06/10 13:02] Lukas Mensing: :))
[2008/06/10 13:02] Tao Takashi: well, the swedish team isn't that great either right now ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:02] Lukas Mensing: and I am missing this game to be here :)
[2008/06/10 13:03] Tao Takashi: looks like 0:0 anyway
[2008/06/10 13:03] Lukas Mensing: at the first half they were more offensive
[2008/06/10 13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: you need a streaming url you can have open. client browser handles quicktime... ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:03] Arawn Spitteler: will concede the game is good: Think of all you give up, to be here.
[2008/06/10 13:03] Squirrel Wood: soccer, 20 idiots all running after a little ball for 90 minutes, trying to kick it across the field and two others who don't want the ball :p
[2008/06/10 13:03] Lukas Mensing: true sai, but not my connection :)
[2008/06/10 13:03] Tess Linden: Has everyone heard about the login demo we did on OpenSim?
[2008/06/10 13:04] Dyne Talamasca: yep
[2008/06/10 13:04] Tao Takashi: yes, earlier
[2008/06/10 13:04] Rex Cronon: u never played that squirrel?
[2008/06/10 13:04] Peter13 Peterman: yup
[2008/06/10 13:04] Zha Ewry: looks up "What? did someone do somehting with OpenSim?"
[2008/06/10 13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
[2008/06/10 13:04] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
[2008/06/10 13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: In case Zha forgot
[2008/06/10 13:05] Tess Linden: Studio Icehouse has been working with IBM folks on making login and teleport work across region domains
[2008/06/10 13:06] Tao Takashi: I am looking forward to test this with an agent domain of my own
[2008/06/10 13:06] Tess Linden: what we did was first get login to work between beta grids
[2008/06/10 13:06] Tao Takashi: I wonder how much debugging this might involve though ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:07] Tess Linden: login directly into a vaak region, but using an aditi agent
[2008/06/10 13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: yoru stuff is in python, right Tao?
[2008/06/10 13:07] Tao Takashi: very probable
[2008/06/10 13:07] Zha Ewry: As long as you like being ruth and unable to managhe your inventory
[2008/06/10 13:07] Zha Ewry: (Well, this week)
[2008/06/10 13:07] Tao Takashi: I am not so much talking about debugging my python part but the interoperability part
[2008/06/10 13:07] Tess Linden: Tao: you've been keeping track of the OGP work right?
[2008/06/10 13:08] Tao Takashi: yes
[2008/06/10 13:08] Tao Takashi: I started pyogp ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:08] Tess Linden: oh right! duh Tess
[2008/06/10 13:08] Tao Takashi: so if something breaks on the opensim side I am screwed for now I guess
[2008/06/10 13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Waiting for word from Enus as to when the test harness repo is up. Then everyone can start playing with the protocols from semi-working code
[2008/06/10 13:09] Tao Takashi: the pyogp state of things is also available at google code though right now
[2008/06/10 13:09] Tess Linden: hm, I was telling zero that this crowd probably already heard the news, but he said we did the demo after his last office hours
[2008/06/10 13:09] Tao Takashi: we really need to find out how we can split this thing clever with hg
[2008/06/10 13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: All related stuff will be linked from here: [2]
[2008/06/10 13:10] Tess Linden: thanks for the link Sai
[2008/06/10 13:10] Zha Ewry: We did
[2008/06/10 13:10] Zha Ewry: At his office hours, i was complaining loudly about regionHandles and hacking around them
[2008/06/10 13:10] Prokofy Neva: I don't care if you can't manage your inventory over in the Brave New World, as long as when you can, you can't manage *my* inventory too : )
[2008/06/10 13:11] Tao Takashi: that's a common goal I think ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:11] Tess Linden: zha: can you explain how inventory will work?
[2008/06/10 13:11] Zha Ewry: Well
[2008/06/10 13:11] Zha Ewry: In the very short term, it's totally local
[2008/06/10 13:11] Zha Ewry: So when we link up the UUID's and agent store in OpenSim, you'll only see assets on the OpenSim
[2008/06/10 13:11] Dahlia Trimble: my inventory is a mess... i could probably use a good manager ;)
[2008/06/10 13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: so no way to get stuff or rez it from the SL asset server
[2008/06/10 13:12] Zha Ewry: Down the road, we've got asset fetch on our agenda, and at that point
[2008/06/10 13:12] Zha Ewry: we'll have to start managing the assets properly, which is to say, with understandings about people's permissions and so forth
[2008/06/10 13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: right, that has to be working BEFORE you start grabbingassetsr
[2008/06/10 13:12] Tess Linden: you were saying that you got inventory almost working?
[2008/06/10 13:12] Zha Ewry: At no point, shoudl anyone other than the person who logged on to the Linden Agent Domain ever be able to
[2008/06/10 13:13] Zha Ewry: touch Linden Assets
[2008/06/10 13:13] Zha Ewry: And then there will be som einterestign questions about when and how the Linden Asset servers chose to server up assets to off Linden Propertyy
[2008/06/10 13:13] Zha Ewry: yeah, I need to fix one more thing, and rebuild the user database, so you can have Agents on the OpenSim whith UUIDs which match the ones on Linden Grid
[2008/06/10 13:13] Zha Ewry: (which, long term is a messy issue)
[2008/06/10 13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Lillie had an interesting suggestion. Add a set of mods to the current permissions. Things like a "this grid only" flag and "trusted grids only" etc
[2008/06/10 13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: which would apply to all existing current permissions
[2008/06/10 13:14] Prokofy Neva: Who gets to decide what is "trusted"?
[2008/06/10 13:14] Zha Ewry: Since, we really don't want to have to sync UUIDs across every possibly domain
[2008/06/10 13:14] Rex Cronon: i think the maker should decide what grids to trust
[2008/06/10 13:14] Zha Ewry: At the protocol level, we'll put in the management hooks to make that a chocie of the people runnigng grid and such
[2008/06/10 13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: well, "trusted" would refer to grids that LL has perms-honoring agreements with I'd guess
[2008/06/10 13:15] Tess Linden: zha: can you be more specific? You teleport to an opensim region, and you all of a sudden can see your opensim inventory?
[2008/06/10 13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: If you don't trust LL's judgement, you'd set the "this grid only" flag
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: well
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: Heh
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: Teleport is messier
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: Login is easy
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: because the client sees your assets from the get go
[2008/06/10 13:15] Tess Linden: zha: what part of the protocol does the client get the inventory assets?
[2008/06/10 13:15] Zha Ewry: I think we need to actually have a discussion about how to do Inventory management once ou're TPing
[2008/06/10 13:16] Zha Ewry: At login we do a normalfetch
[2008/06/10 13:16] Zha Ewry: So, whhichever region you first loginto, is gonig to service that today
[2008/06/10 13:16] Tess Linden: originally we've had inventory as part fo the agent domain
[2008/06/10 13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: what f inventory that is sitting on another grid's asset server?
[2008/06/10 13:17] Tess Linden: I've heard talk about maybe an additional? inventory linked to a regiond omain
[2008/06/10 13:17] Zha Ewry: There are at least two issues
[2008/06/10 13:17] Arawn Spitteler: Anything you see on a client, has been trusted off grid, maybe an Object Domain would be in order, for undisclosed scripting?
[2008/06/10 13:17] Zha Ewry: One is where the inventory gets stored
[2008/06/10 13:17] Tess Linden: what if you're not connected to a region?
[2008/06/10 13:17] Zha Ewry: the other is how it gets loaded/unloaded
[2008/06/10 13:17] Tess Linden: should you still be able to access your inventory?
[2008/06/10 13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: there's talk of agent domain scripting server for attachments' scripts
[2008/06/10 13:18] Zha Ewry: right now the client assumes that the inventory loads once
[2008/06/10 13:18] Zha Ewry: and never changes
[2008/06/10 13:18] Dahlia Trimble: how about component level permissions? for instance an object with purchased textures
[2008/06/10 13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: you can rez the attachment in a grid if the attachment is open perms, but if the scripts are closed, only the update info would be sent to the untrusted region, not the csript
[2008/06/10 13:19] Zha Ewry: That's an interesting question
[2008/06/10 13:19] Zha Ewry: right now, textures are sort of handled slightly differentl than objects, in some ways
[2008/06/10 13:20] Dahlia Trimble: or purchased scripts
[2008/06/10 13:20] Rex Cronon: and sculpties images?
[2008/06/10 13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: scripts can be handled differently at least for attachments
[2008/06/10 13:20] Squirrel Wood: What about old, existing content? How would you handle that?
[2008/06/10 13:21] Tess Linden: I've been thinking about Identity lately, and how its all about giving the user more control over who they choose for services
[2008/06/10 13:21] Tess Linden: for the example of Inventory, what does the average person want? Do they want their inventory to be hosted in multiple places?
[2008/06/10 13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Squirrel, I see 3 possibilites, 2 easy, one really hard: 1) assume all open stuff is for any grid, 2_) assume all open stuff is "this grid only" 3) retroactively let content creators set that flag, even for stuff that already is in someone's inventory
[2008/06/10 13:23] Squirrel Wood: 3 = sorta impossible with players who have left SL for one reason or another
[2008/06/10 13:23] Arawn Spitteler: would expect UUID to include Where-Tags: If people can log on, through multiple grids, and go anywhere, then they may or may not be trusted with the rights to some textures or others.
[2008/06/10 13:23] Dahlia Trimble: I dont care where it's hosted as long as it's reliable, safe, and I can access it even if my account with that provider terminates
[2008/06/10 13:23] Zha Ewry: I think that last one is tricky Dahlia
[2008/06/10 13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: right, so you'd have to assume it was closed until opened. Like I say not easy to implement
[2008/06/10 13:23] Tess Linden: 3 you want to give the content creaters the most choice right?
[2008/06/10 13:23] Zha Ewry: I'd think you would have to do some sort of activity to be sure that was true
[2008/06/10 13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: and a can of worms no matter how you lok at it
[2008/06/10 13:23] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[2008/06/10 13:23] Johan Laurasia: with the different coding though, wouldnt it present a difficulty sharing inventories between grids?
[2008/06/10 13:24] Zha Ewry: and I think you have to be as respectful of the original creators rights as you can
[2008/06/10 13:24] Auto-Teleport-Memory 3.0b: (WEAR ME!) whispers: transfer'O'tronic free memory: 9263
[2008/06/10 13:24] Arawn Spitteler: What if a Content Bank goes Off-Grid, as by Bankruptsy?
[2008/06/10 13:24] Tess Linden: Johan: true, so that could be a reason why youd want it stored in multiple places?
[2008/06/10 13:24] Lillie Yifu: The default under the law would be "closed until opened" since it was a right that did not exist at the time of the object's creation, it would be reserved to the creator or owner of the copyright.
[2008/06/10 13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: ALso, grid-specific content. WoW's custom epic weapons, for example
[2008/06/10 13:24] Tess Linden: Arawn: I can see that as a reason to be able to pick who hosts your inventory
[2008/06/10 13:25] Prokofy Neva: Tess, what's more important than answering the question of what the average creator and user wants for inventory is to find an equitable process to answer that question.
[2008/06/10 13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Lillie, You're probably dcorrect. BTW< could you list the choices you did before? I've forgotten all of them. Need them for the jira if you haven't put it up already
[2008/06/10 13:25] Tess Linden: prokofy: are you suggesting a survey of some sort?
[2008/06/10 13:26] Zha Ewry: I think we pretty m uch have to assume closed,if not indicated because nobody had an ability to deny the right before
[2008/06/10 13:26] Prokofy Neva: yes
[2008/06/10 13:26] Zha Ewry: Which is a bit of a sad thing for some cool conent, which is owned by peopel who aren't on grid anymore
[2008/06/10 13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: right. I guess this would be easily doable. Not sure about the creator changing the rights on-the-fly if its not in inveontory though...
[2008/06/10 13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: or evenif it is... Hmmm. I guess for stuff that has been taken into inventory, the asset server can do a blanket change either way, as the creator specifies...
[2008/06/10 13:27] Squirrel Wood: You can hold as many surveys as you like - in the end there will always be someone who is pissed off by the final choice.
[2008/06/10 13:27] Prokofy Neva: well Zha the cool content was made with this world in mind and maybe it should stay in this world until explicitly permed and ported, and if the original creator isn't here anymore, well, it's like Indian grave mounds, that doesn't mean you get to disturb it and put it in a museum elsewhere.
[2008/06/10 13:27] Tess Linden: squirrel: certainly true for this case
[2008/06/10 13:28] Zha Ewry: II'm not disagreeing Prok
[2008/06/10 13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I think Zha was agreeing in a sad sort of way
[2008/06/10 13:28] Zha Ewry: Just al ittle sad
[2008/06/10 13:28] Johan Laurasia: well, from a scripting standpoint, there's alot that exists only as bytecode, and the source is gone
[2008/06/10 13:28] Prokofy Neva: Squirrel, just because you can't reach everyone or please everyone is *never* a reason not to have a process by which people can be informed and express their wishes.
[2008/06/10 13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: You're right Prokofy, if it is at all doable, this seems the ownly fair/legal way to go
[2008/06/10 13:28] Lillie Yifu: Thatwould depend on the orpahn copyright stustus
[2008/06/10 13:28] Lillie Yifu: which could change.
[2008/06/10 13:28] Prokofy Neva: Well, what's to be sad about? if the content is here in this world, you come visit this one, you don't have to run off to 100 other worlds and never return, unless of course that's the plan
[2008/06/10 13:28] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, I'm not against surveys. Its just that no matter what the outcome is, people will not like it :p
[2008/06/10 13:29] Tess Linden: I'm hearing, we have to have some way to trust that an external to LL region holds up permissions when you transfer your inventory there
[2008/06/10 13:29] Zha Ewry: I think that's pretty implicit yes
[2008/06/10 13:29] Prokofy Neva: Tess, that is the very basic issue, of course. And...your assets have never been touched before?
[2008/06/10 13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: also, that LL will allow content creators to specify new meta-grid permissions for existing content
[2008/06/10 13:29] Zha Ewry: Just as if I was a grid operator, I wouldn't offer up content to other grids,w ithtou that in place
[2008/06/10 13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Liillie could you list those choices you did the other night? I think they cover all the bases
[2008/06/10 13:30] Zha Ewry: I think that it's going to take a while to get a set of both easy to express and understand behaviros in place, but I think it's essential that we respect the rights of creators
[2008/06/10 13:30] Warthog Jun: someone mentioned multiple storage location
[2008/06/10 13:30] Warthog Jun: how would you sync them
[2008/06/10 13:30] j3rry Paine: like if you were hbo, you wouldn't let cinemax play any of your stuff?
[2008/06/10 13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: well, most of them leaving aside multiple storage locations...
[2008/06/10 13:30] Arawn Spitteler: When LL hands a texture, to a client, it's in accordance with ToS. Generally, ToS means "Don't be an a--ho--, in the eyes of G-Team, but I think it also demand, as a formality, respect for IP. The Textures aren't handed over freely, depite our ability to hack our own data.
[2008/06/10 13:31] Lillie Yifu: I agree with Saij, as soon as possible the ability to assing some kind of meta-grid permissions flag or set of lgas needs to be put in the asset server and clien, so that whilethere will be ahost of contentwhichwill be up in the air about status, it will at least be the case that no more undtermined content would be created.
[2008/06/10 13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: You had a nice list of meta-grid permissions. COuld you list them again?
[2008/06/10 13:31] Johan Laurasia: well, static objects, textures, etc, are no problem, but I just dont see how you're going to get around the script issue
[2008/06/10 13:31] Prokofy Neva: I don't see the need for an unseemly rush to solve the problem of meta-grid permissions, why should OpenSim hasten to access everybody's content here? The default should be "no permissions off this grid"
[2008/06/10 13:32] Johan Laurasia: even if all the copyright issues were settled
[2008/06/10 13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: right, Prokofy, but some peopel WANT their freebie stuff distrubted, even off-grid
[2008/06/10 13:32] Tess Linden: prokofy: because access to content is one of the main reasons why we want interop
[2008/06/10 13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: and some, no doubt, do NOT
[2008/06/10 13:32] Lillie Yifu: Sure, I rposed that we take the copy/mod/transfer permissions and add this grid/trusted grids/all grids to that so that there would be a matrix, and the grid something was created in be stored as well
[2008/06/10 13:32] Dahlia Trimble: Prok, thats the way it works now
[2008/06/10 13:32] Prokofy Neva: Who is "we," Tess? There isn't some huge crowd that wants Interop, just the people here.
[2008/06/10 13:32] Johan Laurasia: as a content creator, I wouldnt have issue with my stuff being available on multiple grids, the more, the better.
[2008/06/10 13:32] Zha Ewry: Since we want to make it work, and we want to rerpect people's rights
[2008/06/10 13:32] Lazarus Longstaff: Your speaking as if OpenSim is a grid operator; in fact, they arent. They're a dev team.
[2008/06/10 13:32] Tess Linden: prokofy: if we didnt want access to content, then we'd have walled gardens like it is today
[2008/06/10 13:32] Zha Ewry: we need to mske it reight
[2008/06/10 13:32] BlueWall Slade: i would expect, in the end, that if i purchase and item in one world it wuold be avalable in another - same as taking it to a different region is now
[2008/06/10 13:33] Dale Innis: Well, not if that other world wouldn't respect the creator's intentions, eh?
[2008/06/10 13:33] Prokofy Neva: You aren't representative of all content creators, Johan, and the oldbie concept of freebies is just that -- the coders' altruism among coders, it isn't a norm for the entire society here, which has to make a living.
[2008/06/10 13:33] Tess Linden: prokofy: but we want to grow Second Life to the size of the internet
[2008/06/10 13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: OK so its three possible grid permissions: this grid only, any "trusted" grid, any grid
[2008/06/10 13:33] Prokofy Neva: We do, Tess?
[2008/06/10 13:33] Prokofy Neva: why?
[2008/06/10 13:33] Lazarus Longstaff: there are a dozen or so independent grids operated on the opensim software - all distinct in their applications and interests
[2008/06/10 13:33] Tess Linden: prokofy: so that everyone can use it
[2008/06/10 13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: and the default when the meta permissions goes into affect is "this grid only" and EVERYTHIGN that exists already is set that way, right?
[2008/06/10 13:33] Prokofy Neva: Why not make what you have going on 20,000 odd servers run better, then work on "the rest of the Internet"?
[2008/06/10 13:33] Tao Takashi: well, I want OGP to be the size of the internet, not necessarily SL ;-)
[2008/06/10 13:33] Johan Laurasia: yeah, but that's not the case, the openSIm project isn't mirroring SL, they're heading off in a different direction, to the point where interoperablity isn't going to be viable
[2008/06/10 13:34] Tess Linden: tao: you're right, I mean virtual worlds
[2008/06/10 13:34] Prokofy Neva: well how about just having the 60,000 loggingo n now be able to access the same inventory now, Tess? I mean, seriously, each time I log on, I have a different inventory number, with a high percentage of it missing.
[2008/06/10 13:34] Lillie Yifu: So that a permissiosnflag could looke like R:xx -C:x-- M:x-- T:x-- which would be full perms in its native grid,rezzabe in a trusted grid but no permissions, and not rezzable in non-trusted grids.
[2008/06/10 13:34] Teravus Ousley: I'm hearing a lot of comments about OpenSim that may not be true..
[2008/06/10 13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Johan, I think IBM is commited to keeping OPenSIm compatible at least for TP/Walking/Assets
[2008/06/10 13:34] Cel Edman: Well I just wonder this means like also a lot of different run asset servers?
[2008/06/10 13:34] Dale Innis: IBM doesn't get to decide that ll by itself 'course. :)
[2008/06/10 13:34] Teravus Ousley: Johan. There will be modules for LL Compatibility
[2008/06/10 13:34] Tess Linden: Cel: yes lots of different asset servers
[2008/06/10 13:34] Zha Ewry: Not at all
[2008/06/10 13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: so they'll supply the code that canb e used to do that even if no-one else does, or such is my impression
[2008/06/10 13:35] Lazarus Longstaff: not necesarily Johan - there is an effort in place to keep all incompatiblities confined to modules, and therefor optional
[2008/06/10 13:35] Zha Ewry: We'll probably have a set of code which permits it, as loadable modules
[2008/06/10 13:35] Rex Cronon: if a creator wants his/hers thing on all grids than it should be possible, but the inverse too
[2008/06/10 13:35] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if Open Sim is a Team or Community, of Developers: When our avatars are baked, does that include Textures, or their UUID?
[2008/06/10 13:35] Lillie Yifu: yes the default would be "native grid only" since that is the only right we know for a fact thecreator meant to grant.
[2008/06/10 13:35] Johan Laurasia: yeah, so there would have to be some predefined 'SL compatible' definition that a grid would have to decide to have or not have
[2008/06/10 13:35] Cel Edman: Well for content creators its important then storing your work on the fasted running asset servers then i guess
[2008/06/10 13:35] Teravus Ousley: Arawn: baked skins get new UUIDs
[2008/06/10 13:35] Zha Ewry: OpenSim is a commnity
[2008/06/10 13:36] Tess Linden: Johan: in the end there will no longer be a central SL compatible bit, people would also need to know if its OpenSim compatible
[2008/06/10 13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: The MPEG-21 folk are working on a xml permisions description language which could be used to give a complete definition of how this stuff works.
[2008/06/10 13:36] Lazarus Longstaff: very much so
[2008/06/10 13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: The SL permission system would be one possible description
[2008/06/10 13:36] Lillie Yifu: The default would have to be "native grid only, and no other permissions"
[2008/06/10 13:36] Dale Innis: Will have to be a set of compatibility bits.
[2008/06/10 13:36] Zha Ewry: Fairly agreeable community
[2008/06/10 13:36] Lazarus Longstaff: yup
[2008/06/10 13:36] Lazarus Longstaff: :D
[2008/06/10 13:36] Zha Ewry: But.. team, I think would imply too much shared vision to msatch reality
[2008/06/10 13:36] Warthog Jun: what sort of networks and protocols currently interconnect the assett servers
[2008/06/10 13:37] Warthog Jun: I was one told VPN's
[2008/06/10 13:37] Dahlia Trimble: baked skins arent real assets either. they only exist on the sims, not the asset servers
[2008/06/10 13:37] Lazarus Longstaff: opensim can be configured to use any standard sort of network
[2008/06/10 13:37] Lazarus Longstaff: I've heard of it being run over vpns with some success
[2008/06/10 13:37] Warthog Jun: yes but is it secure
[2008/06/10 13:37] Lazarus Longstaff: is anything?
[2008/06/10 13:37] Lazarus Longstaff: how secure is your network? thats how secure opensim will be
[2008/06/10 13:37] Warthog Jun: no as in SL runs over VPN's at present
[2008/06/10 13:37] Dyne Talamasca: is involved in OpenSim and is not a dev at all. Just a private region owner, builder, and user
[2008/06/10 13:38] Tess Linden: Warthog: its secure, but prone to failure if for any reason the network is down
[2008/06/10 13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: at best,permissions is a shorthand for the creator's copyright
[2008/06/10 13:38] Dale Innis: Well, there's more to secure than the network being secure.
[2008/06/10 13:38] Lazarus Longstaff: true. but we're painting in pretty broad strokes here
[2008/06/10 13:38] Cel Edman: It's more I allow people using my sculpties in like opensim. But for me its important that my work is stored on an asset server that are like reference. else people could download the same 3d model again and again, from different asset servers all the time.
[2008/06/10 13:38] Warthog Jun: does that mean VPN's to all grids????
[2008/06/10 13:38] Teravus Ousley: Yes, permissions mark intent.
[2008/06/10 13:38] Johan Laurasia: I've had a grid up myself, just to tinker with
[2008/06/10 13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: LL and teh grids it trusts can agree to honor the copyright on THEIR part, and thats about all anyone can expect
[2008/06/10 13:38] Teravus Ousley: Yes, the intent should translate down to the client.
[2008/06/10 13:38] Warthog Jun: well the data still has to get from point a to b
[2008/06/10 13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: and if you don't trust LL's judgement, you set the "this grid only" bit and never turn it off
[2008/06/10 13:38] Dale Innis: Have to decide how finely to represent intent to start with, and make sure we can change it compatibly later, to be finer.
[2008/06/10 13:38] Teravus Ousley: (and the client can block copying)
[2008/06/10 13:39] Prokofy Neva: LL should license the use of its software even when opensourced only to those who respect permissions of creators.
[2008/06/10 13:39] Warthog Jun: or it will tend to isolate by way of performance
[2008/06/10 13:39] Warthog Jun: will it not
[2008/06/10 13:39] Dousa Dragonash: according to RW
[2008/06/10 13:39] Tegg Bode: Well personally I'd probably be using an alt for grid hopping rather than a main account and not have my RL CC details on his Tshirt :)
[2008/06/10 13:39] Dale Innis: Have to be able to mark textures as "only visible to my friends" :)
[2008/06/10 13:39] Warthog Jun: if you think inventory loads slow now
[2008/06/10 13:39] Dahlia Trimble: lol Dale
[2008/06/10 13:39] Teravus Ousley: I agree, at least while SL is a 'walled garden' full of content, there should be legal documents stating requirements to connect content.
[2008/06/10 13:39] Dale Innis: :)
[2008/06/10 13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokfy its not the software, its the assets. OpenSIm can duplicate most LL efforts, but an OpenSim grid operator has to have a legally binding gareement to get a copy of those assets
[2008/06/10 13:40] Lazarus Longstaff: client go boom
[2008/06/10 13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: And if you don't trust LL, keep the bit to "this grid only" and I would expect LL to honor that intent
[2008/06/10 13:40] Warthog Jun: how will the assett servers talk to one another
[2008/06/10 13:40] Lazarus Longstaff: Sai: precisely. The *operator*
[2008/06/10 13:40] Prokofy Neva: I'm talking about something else, Saijanai. I'm saying when it licenses the software for use, eithe r now for special corporation use for fees or later as open source or whatever, it should have as part of the license an agreement to respect the permissions system.
[2008/06/10 13:40] Dale Innis: Warthog: via TCP/IP. :)
[2008/06/10 13:40] Lazarus Longstaff: which may or may not be the grid operator - in fact, in many cases, it will be the region operator
[2008/06/10 13:41] Warthog Jun: yeah right
[2008/06/10 13:41] Lillie Yifu: The other thing that could be done would be to create a creator mask, so that creators who want to have their content have a different set of grid permissions could set that as the default for all oftheir content. It would allow creators to be more permisive than this grid only. But the disadnvatage is that it would be globa.
[2008/06/10 13:41] Dale Innis: ( sirens? )
[2008/06/10 13:41] Warthog Jun: but is it not true that the network is the bottleneck with the assett servers
[2008/06/10 13:41] Lazarus Longstaff: OSGrid, for instance, is an open grid - anyone may connect regions provided they have the wit and resources
[2008/06/10 13:41] Tao Takashi: well, you could decide not to let grids connect if they don't honour the permission system
[2008/06/10 13:41] Dale Innis: I'd love to have a umask in SL!
[2008/06/10 13:41] Lazarus Longstaff: +1 Dale
[2008/06/10 13:41] Dale Innis: blushes.
[2008/06/10 13:41] Warthog Jun: you are missing the point
[2008/06/10 13:42] Tao Takashi: and this is most likely part then of the legal agreement
[2008/06/10 13:42] Warthog Jun: data is encrypted
[2008/06/10 13:42] Teravus Ousley: (sirens = attack chopper owned by David Street)
[2008/06/10 13:42] Warthog Jun: sigh
[2008/06/10 13:42] Dale Innis: ( that's unusual )
[2008/06/10 13:42] Dahlia Trimble: turns off particles
[2008/06/10 13:42] Tess Linden: (turned off sound :P_
[2008/06/10 13:42] Dale Innis: control-alt-shift-equals
[2008/06/10 13:42] Lazarus Longstaff: is client-deaf ;)
[2008/06/10 13:42] Dale Innis: Sorry Warthog, can you expand on the point?
[2008/06/10 13:42] Prokofy Neva: That's the idea Tao. If open sim has reverse engineered SL, if it wants respect it has to respect its permissions when hooking up
[2008/06/10 13:43] Arawn Spitteler: Wouter Clip, brave soul
[2008/06/10 13:43] Teravus Ousley: rightclicks to freeze
[2008/06/10 13:43] Warthog Jun: if at present
[2008/06/10 13:43] Lazarus Longstaff: OpenSim is not a reverse-engineering of SL. That is FUD.
[2008/06/10 13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: alll grids can be TPed to. But not all grids can be walked to.
[2008/06/10 13:43] Tess Linden: well, I guess the reason why we are discussing permissions now is because even though initially we are only going to connect trusted regions, we still gotta leave room for design decisions around untrusted regions
[2008/06/10 13:43] Johan Laurasia: open sim hasnt reverse engineered SL
[2008/06/10 13:43] Warthog Jun: the bottle neck is comm between server rooms
[2008/06/10 13:43] Tao Takashi: Prok: sure and I am also quite sure LL will take care of that
[2008/06/10 13:43] Warthog Jun: if you start adding locations
[2008/06/10 13:43] Dyne Talamasca: Not that reverse engineering is really a dirty word.
[2008/06/10 13:43] Tao Takashi: but I also would expect other grids without permissions to pop up here and there
[2008/06/10 13:43] Prokofy Neva: um, analogy-engineering. "Creative interpretation". And being skeptical isn't FUD; telling skeptcs they are FUD is FUD.
[2008/06/10 13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: OPenSim is based on libsl, which IS reverse engineered.
[2008/06/10 13:43] Dale Innis: Definitely, Tess! Or at least need to allow for more that one level of "trust".
[2008/06/10 13:43] Lazarus Longstaff: it denegrates the most excellent efforts of our devs
[2008/06/10 13:43] Sheet Spotter: Attack chopper was owned by "ale Heliosense"
[2008/06/10 13:43] Meadhbh Oh: hola zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Warthog Jun: that is an encrypted path to every grid you have content on
[2008/06/10 13:44] Dale Innis: Just having a single "trusted" bit would be not expressive enough.
[2008/06/10 13:44] Zha Ewry: Hello Zero!
[2008/06/10 13:44] Tess Linden: Hey Zero!
[2008/06/10 13:44] Tao Takashi: Hey Zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Lazarus Longstaff: Hi Zero, welcome to your party lols
[2008/06/10 13:44] Teravus Ousley: Hi Zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Zero Linden: Helllllllo!
[2008/06/10 13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Discussion of https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWGroupies-2008-06-10
[2008/06/10 13:44] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Chase Marellan: Hey, Zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Tegg Bode: Hi Zero, welcome to the fray :)
[2008/06/10 13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: the login from SL to OpenSim demo
[2008/06/10 13:44] Dahlia Trimble: about time Zero ;)
[2008/06/10 13:44] Warthog Jun: so performance will be dependant on the better network
[2008/06/10 13:44] Zero Linden: So sorry - my dentist was running waaaay late
[2008/06/10 13:44] Aki Shichiroji: Hi Zero
[2008/06/10 13:44] Warthog Jun: correct
[2008/06/10 13:44] Prokofy Neva: Dyne, reverse engineering used to be against the TOS, but whatever
[2008/06/10 13:44] Dale Innis: Yeah, Warthog, that makes sense. But isn't encryption at the level we need basically a solved problem?
[2008/06/10 13:44] Tess Linden: we've been chatting away about how to handle inventory perms across external to LL regions
[2008/06/10 13:45] Zero Linden: oh - fun
[2008/06/10 13:45] Warthog Jun: well but that is the current bottle neck is it not
[2008/06/10 13:45] Johan Laurasia: heh
[2008/06/10 13:45] Zero Linden: for, er, some value of "fun"
[2008/06/10 13:45] Dale Innis: was just starting to write a paper about inter-domain perms an' DRM in VWs! Nice coincidence. :)
[2008/06/10 13:45] Warthog Jun: this would only compound it
[2008/06/10 13:45] Rex Cronon: isn't it good that here u can type, after seeeing a dentist:)
[2008/06/10 13:45] Meadhbh Oh: Yes, encryption is a known problem.. but trust implied by encryption and digital signatures is still an issue
[2008/06/10 13:45] Tess Linden: Lillie mentioned an example: R:xx -C:x-- M:x-- T:x-- for full perms
[2008/06/10 13:45] Lazarus Longstaff: IMHO, you will almost need a little protocol to negotiate foreign permissions
[2008/06/10 13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: the concesus seems to be a "this grid only'trusted-grid/any-grid" setting to modify all current settings
[2008/06/10 13:45] Warthog Jun: well more specific VPN
[2008/06/10 13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: and the default is set to "this grid only" for all existing content
[2008/06/10 13:45] Lillie Yifu: The other thing that needs to be done is that on the purchase dialog box the meta permissions need to be displayed in some simple, possibly color coded, form. Content purchasers ahve a right toknow ifthey are purchasing content that is this grid, trusted grids, or all grids, before they spend.
[2008/06/10 13:46] Dale Innis: Well, that would be a START Saij; but just one "trusted" bit won't last forever. imho.
[2008/06/10 13:46] Dale Innis: +1 Lillie :)
[2008/06/10 13:46] Zha Ewry: No, it needs to be a range
[2008/06/10 13:46] Warthog Jun: did you guys ever work out the bug with the hardware VPN's you got
[2008/06/10 13:46] Warthog Jun: or is still being done in software
[2008/06/10 13:46] Teravus Ousley: Yes, preferrably there will also be a 'covenant' style txt license with the content
[2008/06/10 13:46] Meadhbh Oh: and there might be several layers of permissions and trust. You have permissions for agents and then you have permissions for grid operators
[2008/06/10 13:46] Prokofy Neva: Does Open Sim even have a buy/sell interface inworld? such as to even be handling these? That's just it. They intent to live on the barter/trade system.
[2008/06/10 13:46] Lazarus Longstaff: if I understand opensim architecture correctly, it will be possible to write external permissions modules
[2008/06/10 13:46] Dale Innis: gives up and turns off sound.
[2008/06/10 13:46] Prokofy Neva: It's all "Visa" and "Twofish"
[2008/06/10 13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: OPenSim will support bunches of differnt things, I think
[2008/06/10 13:47] Zha Ewry: Up to, and including the "I want this this list of regions domains" to havbe access to this item
[2008/06/10 13:47] Lazarus Longstaff: no we dont, and no we dont. we just havent quite built that bridge yet, much less crossed it.
[2008/06/10 13:47] Lillie Yifu: The permissions system is just a way of showing the license that was granted and accepted in the contract. Enofricng that will take technical, legal and social steps above and beyond it.
[2008/06/10 13:47] Teravus Ousley: Prokofy: there's an example money module if anyone wants to build on it and host it separately.
[2008/06/10 13:47] Meadhbh Oh: I may be happy to allow LL to rez my object, but would think twice about letting it migrate to a pirate bay run grid
[2008/06/10 13:47] Dale Innis: There will be lots of OpenSim-based regions; some will want money and some won't. Diversity is good. :)
[2008/06/10 13:47] Lazarus Longstaff: brb
[2008/06/10 13:47] Prokofy Neva: There is no interface currently for an economy, for buying and sell Dale, having Visa or some module is not the same thing
[2008/06/10 13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: the variable permissions thing is where the permissions language comes in.
[2008/06/10 13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: We might have to light a fire under MPEG-21 to get them to work on that more
[2008/06/10 13:48] Teravus Ousley: Prokofy, actually the module defines the interface.
[2008/06/10 13:48] Dale Innis: Not sure what you mean by "interface", Prok; it's viewer-compatible, so the "buy" buttons and all are there.
[2008/06/10 13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: because we'll probably be the first to use it
[2008/06/10 13:48] Dale Innis: And at the server side the modules *are* the interface.
[2008/06/10 13:48] Meadhbh Oh: eeek.. MPEG-21 DRM?
[2008/06/10 13:48] Zero Linden: oh - speaking of which - just curious.... anyone here involved with MPEG-V?
[2008/06/10 13:48] Dale Innis: lol what Tera said :)
[2008/06/10 13:48] Meadhbh Oh: can't we use teh term MAC instead?
[2008/06/10 13:48] Dale Innis: ( Is that helicopter gone yet?)
[2008/06/10 13:48] Prokofy Neva: Teravus, if is is not a universal feature everywhre on all grids, it's not a free economy, and it's something different and it can't be expected to be a vehicle for respecting permissions set in this world.
[2008/06/10 13:48] Johan Laurasia: chopper gone, sirens not
[2008/06/10 13:49] Teravus Ousley: Prokofy: .. so therefore if someone picked up the code and hosted a completed version, then currency might be supported assuming you get the module from whoever is hosting the complete version.
[2008/06/10 13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: [3]
[2008/06/10 13:49] Lillie Yifu: Zha: that case could be handled by "tursted grids" and allow the trust list to be a URI. In taht URI would be the trusted list. The default would be the trusted URI for the grid, but it could be set to some other URI.
[2008/06/10 13:49] Dale Innis: tentatively turns prim-rendering back on.
[2008/06/10 13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: REL Rights Expression Language
[2008/06/10 13:49] Prokofy Neva: It's not pervasive through all of the grids; it is not an integral element of the world.
[2008/06/10 13:49] Prokofy Neva: having one sim or continent owner graft on one buy module is not an economy, it's a storefront on an Internet page
[2008/06/10 13:49] Dale Innis: If some grid doesn't respect permissions, things with restricted permissions wouldn't be allowed to get there.
[2008/06/10 13:49] Dousa Dragonash: Does anyone mind if I take some shots
[2008/06/10 13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: so the SL permissions bits would be a shorthand for the REL for SL
[2008/06/10 13:49] Teravus Ousley: Prokofy, are you arguing that because it is a module and isn't core code, it isn't good enough for you?
[2008/06/10 13:50] Prokofy Neva: No, it's not good enough for me, Teravus.
[2008/06/10 13:50] Dyne Talamasca: Profoky: re: reverse engineering, I mostly meant as a concept. Just a response to the idea that it was FUD.
[2008/06/10 13:50] Dale Innis: I think he's objecting to the "might be absent" part rather than the software structure details. :)
[2008/06/10 13:50] Dyne Talamasca: totally cannot type today
[2008/06/10 13:50] Zero Linden: actually- I'm imagning that we (LL in this case) will be able to offer a full set of APIs, via OGP, that make L$ transactions on other region domains possible
[2008/06/10 13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: dyan, teh SL compatible bits of OpenSim and libsl are certainly reverse-engineered
[2008/06/10 13:50] Prokofy Neva: Dyne, we've just heard from Saijanai that in fact OpenSim is based on libsl, and as we all know full well, libsl was reverse engineered while the TOS was still banning reverse engineering, so, do the math.
[2008/06/10 13:50] Tess Linden: zero: do you know of an examples that use MPEG-21?
[2008/06/10 13:50] Zero Linden: and eventually cross agent domains
[2008/06/10 13:51] Teravus Ousley: ok, I understand. At any point you can download the sample module and examine it. I think you'll find it adequately gives enough examples for someone to complete it and make it LLCompabile
[2008/06/10 13:51] Zero Linden: Tess - not as such -
[2008/06/10 13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: PAART of OPenSIm use libsl
[2008/06/10 13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: or such is my understanding
[2008/06/10 13:51] Dale Innis: So I would suggest that we have some sort of "trustedness" integer (or bit vector?), and start out with only a single value defined, but leave room or expansion.
[2008/06/10 13:51] Dyne Talamasca: is apathetic about that, having not been involved in either project until a month ago
[2008/06/10 13:51] Dahlia Trimble: mainly for the communication between the client and the sim Saij
[2008/06/10 13:51] Meadhbh Oh: Zero... we're talking about using LL as a trusted third party for L$ transactions, then?
[2008/06/10 13:51] Dale Innis: Or whatever wimpy abstraction is appropriate :)
[2008/06/10 13:51] Zha Ewry: I think it's reaosnable to assume that part of being permitted into the trust bondary of Linden's grid, and other grids with econmies, will be "supporting the money"
[2008/06/10 13:51] Zero Linden: my concern with REL and similar is that it is probably too general to be of practical value
[2008/06/10 13:52] Dale Innis: ( ooo the sound stopped! )
[2008/06/10 13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I think as a way of documenting the "official" description, it would be good
[2008/06/10 13:52] Meadhbh Oh: agrees with Zero... systems that are overly general, generally suffer from that problem IMHO
[2008/06/10 13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: not as a way of using it in practice (unless grids are so far appart they have to refer to it to understand what the otehr allows)
[2008/06/10 13:53] Dale Innis: likes overly general things, but has learned to resign himself to things that work.
[2008/06/10 13:53] Meadhbh Oh: lol
[2008/06/10 13:53] Zero Linden: I could imagine that we develop a more restricted permissions model (such as SL already has), and then could use REL to describe that in a way that
[2008/06/10 13:53] Zero Linden: interpretable by other systems, but within the OGP world, only use the restricted set
[2008/06/10 13:53] Zero Linden: at least for now
[2008/06/10 13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: right. Didn't mean it should replace the permission system
[2008/06/10 13:53] Meadhbh Oh: true.. I think SL permision semantics could be represented in a subset of REL
[2008/06/10 13:54] Meadhbh Oh: but I haven't looked at REL in a while
[2008/06/10 13:54] Dale Innis: yes! probably :)
[2008/06/10 13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: just describe it in a "industry standard" (heh) way
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zero Linden: remember - people have a hard enough time with the current permissions system
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zha Ewry: I would think it would be pretty managable
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zha Ewry: To do the mapping
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zha Ewry: I'm far more concerned about the UI
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zha Ewry: (What Zero just said)
[2008/06/10 13:54] Zero Linden: and I think we all here realize that it will have to be "evolved" to have some more support for what multiple region domains will mean for it
[2008/06/10 13:54] Prokofy Neva: the current permissions system is dead simple and universally understood
[2008/06/10 13:54] Meadhbh Oh: at the very least, the REL data model should be supported
[2008/06/10 13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see overlapping trust in some really convoluted way
[2008/06/10 13:55] Dale Innis: The UI will be fun :P
[2008/06/10 13:55] Meadhbh Oh: so even if it's not initally supported, it could be layerd on "in the fullness of time"
[2008/06/10 13:55] Zha Ewry: Prok, ikf that was the case, I wouldn't routinely get notcards from people I can't read.
[2008/06/10 13:55] Dale Innis: Actually even the current permissions system confuses people! (including me)
[2008/06/10 13:55] Zero Linden: and so it will be a challenge to make it expressive enough to capture the different modalities that residents want, while not causing more confusion than it gains
[2008/06/10 13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Grid A trusts grid b but grid a does NOT trust grid C, even though Grid B does, for some weird defintiion of "trust"
[2008/06/10 13:55] Prokofy Neva: they didn't click off that you could read it Zero
[2008/06/10 13:55] Dale Innis: Yeah, non-transitivity of trust is going to be an issue.
[2008/06/10 13:55] Prokofy Neva: in fact you'd have to consciously close the card I believe Zha
[2008/06/10 13:55] Meadhbh Oh: ditto about getting confused by the perms system smoetimes
[2008/06/10 13:56] Meadhbh Oh: Saijanai... that's the same problem with PGP key web of trust
[2008/06/10 13:56] Prokofy Neva: I think the perception that it is "confusing" is being promoted as an excuse to seemly ditch it all, Zero, and I'm not buying it, sorry.
[2008/06/10 13:56] Warthog Jun: well trust will not be an issue if performance suffers
[2008/06/10 13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: and then you'll have to allow "I trust Grid A's trust certificates but NOt Grid B's
[2008/06/10 13:56] Arawn Spitteler: Try passing a loaded notecard, about the wonderful things to be developed in SL, including Inventory Items
[2008/06/10 13:56] Lillie Yifu: THe current permissions system is woefully inadequate even at protecting content creator rights which sould exist.
[2008/06/10 13:56] Zero Linden: Prokofy - I don't recall saying or implying that I wanted to ditch any of it
[2008/06/10 13:56] Dale Innis: Definitely not talking about ditching it; want to make it richer without being confusing, or violating expectations.
[2008/06/10 13:57] Tao Takashi: I also never thought of us wanting to ditch the perm system
[2008/06/10 13:57] Teravus Ousley: didn't hear that either..
[2008/06/10 13:57] Warthog Jun: you will end up keeping the content for that grid on the assett servers for that grid
[2008/06/10 13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: hence th universal agreement on "this grid only" being the default for all existing content
[2008/06/10 13:57] Prokofy Neva: I pass hundreds of them constantly Arawn, you're exaggerating, I have content, landmarks, other notecards, all on networked notecard givers, works great
[2008/06/10 13:57] Meadhbh Oh: and lets not forget making it "implementable"
[2008/06/10 13:57] Dale Innis: Want to be able to express both your "don't allow it off the SL grid!" and my "sure, allow mine anywhere".
[2008/06/10 13:57] Meadhbh Oh: I have very bad memories of X.590
[2008/06/10 13:57] Lillie Yifu: Trust shoud not be transitive, the object shoud have its trust as a URI, and the URI should have a list of grids trusted. The default being the trust list of the native grid
[2008/06/10 13:57] Meadhbh Oh: X.509
[2008/06/10 13:57] Meadhbh Oh: and MOSS and PEM
[2008/06/10 13:57] Prokofy Neva: Zero, implying -- and your friends here have been saying this, and in the SL Dev list as well
[2008/06/10 13:57] Dale Innis: Lillie; that's a good model. Allowing trust delegation is probably too dangerous.
[2008/06/10 13:57] Tao Takashi: at least never did say this
[2008/06/10 13:57] Lillie Yifu: so for example an object aht allows rezzing in "trusted" grids would have a URI that points to something like "trusted.secondlife.com/grids
[2008/06/10 13:57] Teravus Ousley: well, glad he cleared it up then. He's not planning on ditching the system.
[2008/06/10 13:58] Tao Takashi: what I said though was that there will be grids without a permission system popping up
[2008/06/10 13:58] Teravus Ousley: :D
[2008/06/10 13:58] Zha Ewry: thanks prok not to put words in other people's mouths.
[2008/06/10 13:58] Tao Takashi: but that's different
[2008/06/10 13:58] Zero Linden: Prokofy - No, I don't think you can take anything I have said to imply that I think permissions should go away.
[2008/06/10 13:58] Dahlia Trimble: there doesnt seem to be a shortage of new content on other grids.. I suspect the problem for content creators may be developing a market presence there
[2008/06/10 13:58] Zero Linden: And, as you see from many of the comments here - many of the people here don't think so either
[2008/06/10 13:58] Dale Innis: There certainly ARE people who would like to do away with the permission system. Not sure any of them are here right now. :)
[2008/06/10 13:58] Prokofy Neva: Zha, the idea that permissions are "complex" is a very, very narrow and sectarian understanding that bears no resemblance to any common usage -- I'll thank you not to speak on behalf of the public at large about things like that.
[2008/06/10 13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I think there was talk bout LL continuing to hold the L$ as its own system rather than using something else, but thats different from assets
[2008/06/10 13:59] Prokofy Neva: Zero, I guess that's why people on the SL Dev list say "I'm tired of people moaning about IP protection"
[2008/06/10 13:59] Lillie Yifu: Thatway even if the object is copied on a trusted grid, the URI points back ot the natie turst lit, not the trust list of the new grid.
[2008/06/10 13:59] Zero Linden: Prokofy, I speak from knowledge of what our support team fields as commonly difficult areas of the system
[2008/06/10 13:59] Johan Laurasia: lol
[2008/06/10 13:59] Dale Innis: Yeah, I like that Lillie. You should write it down. :)
[2008/06/10 13:59] Arawn Spitteler: has had trouble with Perms
[2008/06/10 13:59] Johan Laurasia: yeah, it's almost like the forums, but live :)
[2008/06/10 13:59] Prokofy Neva: Your perception that permissions are complex jsut doesn't track: mod/copy/resell -- dirt simple
[2008/06/10 13:59] Teravus Ousley: I dunno, I found some of the intricacies to be complex when I joined.. until I experimented and found out what happens when a no-mod script goes in a no-trans object.
[2008/06/10 13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, teh idea that something is simple as oppsed to complex, usualy implies that two different ideas are beign talked about
[2008/06/10 13:59] Zero Linden: Prokofy- surely you can generalize from what some people on an open e-mail list say to what everyone here thinks?
[2008/06/10 13:59] Zero Linden: But really, this line isn't fruitful
[2008/06/10 14:00] Prokofy Neva: I probably field as much as your support team individuals field, Zero, and it's being overstated, believe me
[2008/06/10 14:00] Dale Innis: I find the fact that, for instance, you can't put a no-mod object into an attachment while it's attached to be rather complex. :)
[2008/06/10 14:00] Zero Linden: I've been explicity about perms not going away or being eroded. And many people here have stated their agreement with that.
[2008/06/10 14:00] Prokofy Neva: I haven't had a single person complain of an inability to read a notecard I distribute in the hundreds daily in probably years.
[2008/06/10 14:00] Dale Innis: ( Whereas you can put in a full-perm object )
[2008/06/10 14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: and try to mod permissions while an object is attached but not rezzed
[2008/06/10 14:00] Tao Takashi: yes, putting objects with different perms inside each other is rather complex
[2008/06/10 14:00] Tao Takashi: then add groups and land to it
[2008/06/10 14:00] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, just because you understand how permissions work does not imply that everyone else does. In fact, I have to deal with people at work on a daily basis who forget windows basics or how to use a password manager and such things. Or how to make text bold in word. Mankind in general is stupid and forgetful. I experience it every day. at work.
[2008/06/10 14:00] Prokofy Neva: Saying permissions are "complex" is a slippery slope to saying "Oh, let's get rid of them," and you know that, Zero. And it's a legitimate concern.
[2008/06/10 14:01] Dale Innis: Anyway. :) So the consensus of at least this group is that we're not getting rid of permissions.
[2008/06/10 14:01] Dale Innis: Whether or not they're complex is probably moot,. given that.
[2008/06/10 14:01] Prokofy Neva: Squirrel, mod/copy/resell is something you learn in kindergarten, this isn't rocket science here
[2008/06/10 14:01] Tao Takashi: saying permissions are complex can also mean to come up with a better and likewise powerful system
[2008/06/10 14:01] Zero Linden: No, Prok, I don't.
[2008/06/10 14:01] Cel Edman: Since this dvd/mp3 is mod/copy transfer.. that doesnt mean I could legit sell it on the internet next
[2008/06/10 14:01] Dale Innis: Embedded objects is an interesting case, actually,
[2008/06/10 14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: let be clear then: LLhas no plan to get rid of permissions, but only to extend it to handle the new open grid issues
[2008/06/10 14:01] Zero Linden: Nor will is it productive to have you be arguementative at every point -
[2008/06/10 14:01] Dale Innis: do we need to think about them specially in inter-domain transfer?
[2008/06/10 14:01] Tao Takashi: but maybe we can move on from the question of how complex permissions are ;-)
[2008/06/10 14:01] Warthog Jun: is there now or will there soon be a prototype of this
[2008/06/10 14:02] Meadhbh Oh: ditto Tao.. to say the existing permissions system is complex does not preclude the creation of a better replacement
[2008/06/10 14:02] Johan Laurasia: agreed
[2008/06/10 14:02] Tao Takashi: Prok now know that we don't want to ditch it so I guess we can end this
[2008/06/10 14:02] Warthog Jun: and if so who is LL working with on the prototype
[2008/06/10 14:02] j3rry Paine: it's too bad that ted nelson's transclusion didn't gain more traction
[2008/06/10 14:02] Prokofy Neva: Zero, it's important to keep the discussion honest given the tenor of SL Dev and the conversation in these meetings, do I need to cut and paste?
[2008/06/10 14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: and if it is ever replaced, it would be by something that handles the current system AND new issues
[2008/06/10 14:02] Lazarus Longstaff: sorry, back
[2008/06/10 14:02] Lazarus Longstaff: did I get barbequed while I was ghone?
[2008/06/10 14:02] Dale Innis: No, we all forgot you entirely :)
[2008/06/10 14:03] Johan Laurasia: honest.. but pleasant and profesional I'd say
[2008/06/10 14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: SL dev folk usually aren't LL folk
[2008/06/10 14:03] Lillie Yifu: permissions are going to need to get more, not less,complex in any event.
[2008/06/10 14:03] Zero Linden: Are you implying I'm dishonest?
[2008/06/10 14:03] Zero Linden: Well
[2008/06/10 14:03] Zero Linden: Alas, it is 2pm
[2008/06/10 14:03] Lazarus Longstaff: rofl
[2008/06/10 14:03] Dale Innis: Yeah, they'll get more complex, but if we do a good UI job they'll seem simpler. :)
[2008/06/10 14:03] j3rry Paine: nelson is still around, at close at hand in marin
[2008/06/10 14:03] Zero Linden: and I'm sorry that I was here for so short a time
[2008/06/10 14:03] Dale Innis: We blame your dentist.
[2008/06/10 14:03] Teravus Ousley: thanks for coming anyway.
[2008/06/10 14:03] Tao Takashi: Dale: the UI is just 3 checkboxes ;-)
[2008/06/10 14:03] Teravus Ousley: hehe
[2008/06/10 14:03] Warthog Jun: how would you ever prototype this without the cooperation of LL
[2008/06/10 14:03] Johan Laurasia: Thanks for stopping by Tess, Zero, and Whump :)
[2008/06/10 14:03] Zero Linden: I want to thank Tess for showing up and running things
[2008/06/10 14:03] Squirrel Wood: Have a grrrrrreat and productive day ^^
[2008/06/10 14:03] Meadhbh Oh: yay Tess!
[2008/06/10 14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, to summarize: we want a new system that preserves the current system and assumes "this grid only" as the default for handlign the meta-grid issues
[2008/06/10 14:04] Tao Takashi: yeah, your dentist need to join OGP now to help getting the time in again :)
[2008/06/10 14:04] Warthog Jun: take care guys
[2008/06/10 14:04] Dale Innis: 3 checkboxes per object + embedded scripts + embedded objects + applied textures +..... :)
[2008/06/10 14:04] Tess Linden: thanks everyone! it was a fun discussion
[2008/06/10 14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Should I put that into a jira?
[2008/06/10 14:04] Dahlia Trimble: woot Tess! and zero we forgive your tardiness ;)
[2008/06/10 14:04] Zero Linden: Lastly, as you konw I'll be on vacation for much of the next three weeks
[2008/06/10 14:04] Zha Ewry: Good stuff
[2008/06/10 14:04] Dale Innis: If there's not already a JIRA on it, that would be good.
[2008/06/10 14:04] Zero Linden: these office hours will continue with several guest Lindens taking my place
[2008/06/10 14:04] Dale Innis: "vacation"?
[2008/06/10 14:04] Zero Linden: thanks all!
[2008/06/10 14:04] Squirrel Wood: Enjoy your vacation Zero!
[2008/06/10 14:04] Dale Innis: googles on "vacation".
[2008/06/10 14:04] Johan Laurasia: thanks Z!
[2008/06/10 14:04] Lazarus Longstaff: we'll try to get this knocked out for ya while you're on vacation Zero ;p
[2008/06/10 14:04] Tao Takashi: then have a fun vacation! :)
[2008/06/10 14:04] Teravus Ousley: thanks Zero :D
[2008/06/10 14:04] Zha Ewry: Have fun Zero
[2008/06/10 14:04] Tao Takashi: we will finish the protocol in the meanwhile ;-)
[2008/06/10 14:04] Wyn Galbraith: Have a great one Zero ;)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Peter13 Peterman: have an good time zero
[2008/06/10 14:05] Rex Cronon: have fun zero, do a lot of r&r
[2008/06/10 14:05] Tao Takashi: LL then just has to migrate SL to it
[2008/06/10 14:05] Harleen Gretzky: take care Zero, have fun
[2008/06/10 14:05] Johan Laurasia: We'll hold down the fort while you're gone :)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dyne Talamasca: enjoy, zero
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dale Innis: That would be a good deadline "have something to surprise Zero with". :)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Teravus Ousley: :D
[2008/06/10 14:05] Wyn Galbraith: AWG will take over the world while you're gone.
[2008/06/10 14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: fale, thats going to make things ore complex. I think the first step is to get "this grid only" in place ASAP. REALLY ASAP
[2008/06/10 14:05] Lazarus Longstaff: can I TP back to OSGrid yet? Lolz
[2008/06/10 14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Dale*
[2008/06/10 14:05] Zha Ewry: In time
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dale Innis: Yep, that'd be a good thing.
[2008/06/10 14:05] Lillie Yifu: have gun zero
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dale Innis: Have to make sure we don't do it in an non-=expandable way, that's all I ask. :)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Zha Ewry: OK, everyone got a five o clock toget to
[2008/06/10 14:05] Lazarus Longstaff: man, I feel so overdressed ;)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Johan Laurasia: What's with all the Linden bashing? It's like Resident Answer's forum here...
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dale Innis: oooo 5pm already!
[2008/06/10 14:05] Dale Innis: :)
[2008/06/10 14:05] Rex Cronon: bye zha
[2008/06/10 14:06] Whump Linden: Take it easy ya'
[2008/06/10 14:06] Tegg Bode: LOL
[2008/06/10 14:06] Chase Marellan: bye Zha
[2008/06/10 14:06] Dale Innis: Ha, you call that Linden bashing? :)
[2008/06/10 14:06] Aki Shichiroji: yeesh. time flies when you're in the EST :(
[2008/06/10 14:06] Teravus Ousley: Take care :D
[2008/06/10 14:06] Johan Laurasia: TC Whump
[2008/06/10 14:06] Whump Linden: er, ya'll even.
[2008/06/10 14:06] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
[2008/06/10 14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Simple step first: This grid/trusted grid/any grid, with default of "this grid" for all possible settings
[2008/06/10 14:06] Lazarus Longstaff: were we bashing lindens? I thought we were bashing Prok lols
[2008/06/10 14:06] Aki Shichiroji: Laters Whump :)
[2008/06/10 14:06] Zha Ewry: err. 2:00 SL time
[2008/06/10 14:06] Squirrel Wood: /ao on
[2008/06/10 14:06] Lillie Yifu: yes get new content in some kind of new permissions matrix, so that at the least we have less content to sort through later.
[2008/06/10 14:06] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[2008/06/10 14:06] Johan Laurasia: Well, it was pretty obvious to me that Zero was offended
[2008/06/10 14:06] Zha Ewry: Later all
[2008/06/10 14:06] Tao Takashi: cya all! :)
[2008/06/10 14:06] Dale Innis: Default of "no" for all but "this grid", you mean.
[2008/06/10 14:06] Chase Marellan: bye tao
[2008/06/10 14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Lillie, including all existing content too.
[2008/06/10 14:06] Tegg Bode: It's all the angry townspeople mentality :P
[2008/06/10 14:06] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[2008/06/10 14:06] Dale Innis: I don't think Zero was offended. He's used to it. :)
[2008/06/10 14:06] Teravus Ousley: haha, I think he's used to it also..
[2008/06/10 14:06] Johan Laurasia: The guy shows up to answer questions, and people are hammering on the guy
[2008/06/10 14:07] Lazarus Longstaff: Ter, are you an angry townsman?
[2008/06/10 14:07] Squirrel Wood: POKE!!!!
[2008/06/10 14:07] Prokofy Neva: Uh, read SL Dev comments, and see that only Ordinal Malaprop who herself is a content creator answers these kinds of anti-IP comments -- and the silence frmo Linden is often pointed.
[2008/06/10 14:07] Zha Ewry: One takes it in stride after a while
[2008/06/10 14:07] Wyn Galbraith: EEPS!
[2008/06/10 14:07] Johan Laurasia: I suppose
[2008/06/10 14:07] Teravus Ousley: (no, not an angry townsman)
[2008/06/10 14:07] Chase Marellan: I'm out too. Later, all!
[2008/06/10 14:07] Arawn Spitteler: "This Grid Only," might not define what This Grid is. LL extends content to clients, as having accepted trust, and might extend to networks that only extend to clients as having accepted trust, with persuit enforcement, when the matter goes into Legality of IP
[2008/06/10 14:07] Dale Innis: Yeah, the discussion gets rousing. :)
[2008/06/10 14:07] Lazarus Longstaff: me neither lol
[2008/06/10 14:07] Johan Laurasia: still, a bit of professionalism would be nice
[2008/06/10 14:07] Lazarus Longstaff: +1 Arawn
[2008/06/10 14:07] Prokofy Neva: I don't *care* if Zero Linden is offended -- he should take ownership for what is said on SL Dev, refute it, and make the policy explicit.
[2008/06/10 14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: well, for now, I think "this grid" only applies to the LL grid and the sub-grid behind the IBM firewall
[2008/06/10 14:07] Dale Innis: Arawn: for the first prorotype, "This Grid Only" means "the one that the object is currently on" I think?
[2008/06/10 14:08] Tegg Bode: It's a very big complicated issue probaly better suited to the grid runners themselves :)
[2008/06/10 14:08] Dale Innis: Yeah, thatt :)
[2008/06/10 14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: first rezzed on
[2008/06/10 14:08] Teravus Ousley: haha, assuming it isn't sent over EventQueue:Get, as soon as the client option appears, we'll probably support it shortly after.
[2008/06/10 14:08] Squirrel Wood: mayhaps some xml style permission stuff where each grid can set its permissions or where perms can be set for different grids and for any grids not present, the most restrictive ones are applied?
[2008/06/10 14:08] Arawn Spitteler: What Grid? LL Has a bunch of servers, that it calls a grid, but could include foreign sims, on the same grid.
[2008/06/10 14:08] Lillie Yifu: well it would apply to the grid the content was created on
[2008/06/10 14:08] Lillie Yifu: htat's the otehr thing we avhe to have
[2008/06/10 14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: PEL vs grid list
[2008/06/10 14:08] Lillie Yifu: the native grid of a piece of content
[2008/06/10 14:09] Tegg Bode: You don't care if you offend the people that convey your concerns, then don't complain when they ignore you :P
[2008/06/10 14:09] Dale Innis: Yeah, we'll need to expand into more powerful intent-representatoins. Although I'm not a huge XML fan. :)
[2008/06/10 14:09] Arawn Spitteler: What's a "Grid?"
[2008/06/10 14:09] Dale Innis: A grid is probably a Region-Domain in OGP terms? good question t ho
[2008/06/10 14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the REL appears to be mostly a handwaving thing, but if it exists, it better be able to describe what we're talking about
[2008/06/10 14:09] Dale Innis: The REL is maybe overly general, although it's a good model I suspect.
[2008/06/10 14:09] Lazarus Longstaff: probably the most common use of opensim is in standalone mode - not attached to a grid at all. How will permissions from such regions be handled?
[2008/06/10 14:10] Teravus Ousley: hehe, I think there should be some kind of minimal grid domain myself.. along with the region domain.. maybe the avatar domain should fall into the grid domain bucket.
[2008/06/10 14:10] Dale Innis: A standalone OpenSim is a grid that happens to be of size One
[2008/06/10 14:10] Arawn Spitteler: Grid might be a Trademark
[2008/06/10 14:10] Teravus Ousley: .. maybe not.
[2008/06/10 14:10] Dyne Talamasca: Not necessarily. Standalone can run multiple regions.
[2008/06/10 14:11] Wyn Galbraith: /hug squirrel
[2008/06/10 14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: so for purposes of the ASAP jira, "this grid only" refers to the grid where an item is frist rezzed?
[2008/06/10 14:11] Wyn gives: Squirrel a big hug.
[2008/06/10 14:11] Teravus Ousley: :D
[2008/06/10 14:11] Lazarus Longstaff: I'm not sure I agree with Teravus' answer, but I find it refreshing he's already considered it
[2008/06/10 14:11] Dyne Talamasca: But of course they are all one system :)
[2008/06/10 14:11] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[2008/06/10 14:11] Dale Innis: Good point. So a standalone OpenSim is just a grid. :)
[2008/06/10 14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: or to the asset server associated with that grid?
[2008/06/10 14:11] Arawn Spitteler: If Grid is a TM, then LL might run a Grid only, with no Simulators at all.
[2008/06/10 14:11] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[2008/06/10 14:11] Tegg Bode: Hmm stand alone brings in a lot of problems I guess considering there could end up being millions of them, any could allow you to do anythiny to stuff you take into them before bringing it back out
[2008/06/10 14:11] Wyn Galbraith: That was ackward.
[2008/06/10 14:11] Dale Innis: I think they stopped trying to TM "Grid". :)
[2008/06/10 14:11] Lillie Yifu: asset server which first stores the object
[2008/06/10 14:11] Cel Edman: Well from what I assume, there will be multiply run asset servers as well, linden or other parties.
[2008/06/10 14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: I hear they managed to, then cancelled it bcause it was too much of a headache (imagine the legal challenges if they tried to enforce it)
[2008/06/10 14:12] Lillie Yifu: because scripts and textures and so on can be created without being rezzed
[2008/06/10 14:12] Dale Innis: I think we shouldn't assume any particular mapping from asset servers to Region Domain (or anything else).
[2008/06/10 14:12] Cel Edman: Some asset servers would become like a kind of proxy server i guess
[2008/06/10 14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Dale so what do you suggest?
[2008/06/10 14:12] Arawn Spitteler: Grid Management is a service, and LL might spin off a seperate company, to manage its Grid, with that Grid including sims that are multiple Grid Members.
[2008/06/10 14:12] Dale Innis: I suggest that what Asset Server a thing is stored on not be considered a key property of it.
[2008/06/10 14:13] Teravus Ousley: well, I also expect LL to do the general money management/be the common money provider
[2008/06/10 14:13] Lillie Yifu: I don't think we should either
[2008/06/10 14:13] Lillie Yifu: but the asset server is what the contentn creator licensed to store their content and grant copy permissions to.
[2008/06/10 14:13] Dale Innis: hmmmmmmmmm
[2008/06/10 14:13] Dale Innis: I'll have to think about that Lillie. :)
[2008/06/10 14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess we can definte it by intended useage (for now): it assumems that all conent that currently exists on the Linden Lab grid, cannot be removed/transfered to another grid without the owner's specific permission by setting the permissions bit
[2008/06/10 14:13] Dale Innis: When I create content I consider myself to be expressing intent about the domain, not the particular Asset Server. I dunno what an asset server IS, really.
[2008/06/10 14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: content creator's permssion, not "owners"
[2008/06/10 14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Dale, we nee d something approachign legal language, or tat least clear ENglish
[2008/06/10 14:14] Dale Innis: Both, really. Creators and owners will both need some control.
[2008/06/10 14:14] Teravus Ousley: The asset server is just a caching web server front end to a database of content
[2008/06/10 14:14] Dale Innis: Saij: I agree completely.
[2008/06/10 14:14] Prokofy Neva: Lillie is right that licensed to that world's asset server is what is implied, and no one has been educated about this among content creators, made aware of the issues and the options, instead, if we raise questions, if we show some skepticism about the thundering Linden inaction on takedowns and silence in the face of anti-IP rhetoric on SL Dev, we are told by Zero Linden touchily that we're implying he is "dishonest".
[2008/06/10 14:14] Tegg Bode: I expect LL could sell off all it's servers too
[2008/06/10 14:14] Arawn Spitteler: Thinc Books are all Textures, that might be copyrighted, and available for download to clients of The Grid, but those Clients have accepted Trust, under the ToS, which is enforceable.
[2008/06/10 14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Well, owners have no control past what the creator gives them
[2008/06/10 14:14] Dale Innis: Let's start with clear English, and xlate it into Lawyer later on. :)
[2008/06/10 14:15] Dale Innis: Right, but within the range allowed by the creator, owners do have controls to exercise.
[2008/06/10 14:15] Teravus Ousley: I don't know, I think Rob is getting a bit exausted over the complete ignoring of the SL-DEV posting guidelines
[2008/06/10 14:15] Prokofy Neva: have yet to see from LL a robust, full-throated assent to the idea that intellectual property, privacy, integrity, land value are all goals of SL worth preserving. Indeed, you signify by everything you put on the wiki or say or do that you do not care.
[2008/06/10 14:16] Dale Innis: Which "you", Prok?
[2008/06/10 14:16] Prokofy Neva: Teravus, "guidelines" are not what is needed. What is needed is Linden pushback against Stallmanites, unless of course they are Stallmanites themselves, in which case, they ought to open up their hand.
[2008/06/10 14:16] Teravus Ousley: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1267
[2008/06/10 14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: PRokofy, at this point, since no-one is educated, a default of "this grid only" (whatever that means) is the best way to go. I'm just trying to get an idea of how to clearly express what "this grid only" or maybe "cration-crid only" means for putting on the jira
[2008/06/10 14:16] Prokofy Neva: Linden, and their pets and fellow firewall friends.
[2008/06/10 14:16] Prokofy Neva: like yoruself
[2008/06/10 14:17] Dale Innis: I'd say start by writing it down as clearly as you can, and people can suggest changes.
[2008/06/10 14:17] Dale Innis: No sense trying to start out too perfect. :)
[2008/06/10 14:17] Teravus Ousley: well, I choose to argue the idea, not the person prok
[2008/06/10 14:17] Prokofy Neva: fake
[2008/06/10 14:17] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, as long as assets of any type have to be streamed to a client so they can be displayed/played/whatever then there will allways be people who will copy them in one way or another. Assuming assets are safe is naught but a dream.
[2008/06/10 14:17] Lazarus Longstaff: sad but true Squirrel
[2008/06/10 14:17] Dale Innis: That's true, Squirrel, but that doens't mean we s hould give up on representing intent.
[2008/06/10 14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: the best you can do is try to offer legal protection via copyright expression
[2008/06/10 14:17] Prokofy Neva: Squirrel, I've made you aware in the past how tiresome that religious doctrine of yours is, and how much it is challenged even by your fellow coders who are not out on the extreme left.
[2008/06/10 14:17] Dale Innis: exactly.
[2008/06/10 14:17] Lillie Yifu: We need a new system which is backwards compatible with the current permissions system, but not necessarily limited by it. There are a number of perfectly legal transactions which the current permission system does not protect, and which should be made possible in the future.
[2008/06/10 14:18] Dale Innis: agrees with Lillie. again :)
[2008/06/10 14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm mostly concerned about the "creation grid only flag
[2008/06/10 14:18] Tegg Bode: Hmm perhaps trying to secure permnissions in a virtual world has about as much hope as trying to stop people copying stuff on your webpage :P
[2008/06/10 14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: That needs to be implemented last week (literally)
[2008/06/10 14:18] Rex Cronon: is also possible to make copying a little harder, so that at least a 5years old can't do it:)
[2008/06/10 14:18] Lazarus Longstaff: Tegg: you hit the nail on the head
[2008/06/10 14:18] Lazarus Longstaff: the truly determined take what they will
[2008/06/10 14:18] Prokofy Neva: And that has a lot of hope, Tegg, because in the real world outside of your IRC channel, this is done all the time : )
[2008/06/10 14:18] Lazarus Longstaff: the rest of us play nice because we're nice, not because we have to
[2008/06/10 14:18] Lillie Yifu: saij: three things would be really good to ahve quickly flag forthis grid only, name of the native grid, url for the trsutedlist of an object.
[2008/06/10 14:18] Dale Innis: Yeah, I think it's well worth representing intent, and having reasonable controls in place to enforce it.
[2008/06/10 14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: but you have to know the rules to "play nice" the permission system tells you the rules
[2008/06/10 14:19] Arawn Spitteler: I think the legal term would be Age of Reason, about 8, in some cultures.
[2008/06/10 14:19] Prokofy Neva: No, because there are lawsuits, and because in fact RIAA works, despite all the hysteria about it from your gang
[2008/06/10 14:19] Tegg Bode: I don't have an IRC channel Prok stop making uninformed assumptions
[2008/06/10 14:19] Prokofy Neva: well you should get one Tegg, you'd fit in nicely
[2008/06/10 14:19] Prokofy Neva: try libsl
[2008/06/10 14:19] Lazarus Longstaff: smirks
[2008/06/10 14:19] Teravus Ousley: I don't think Prok really cares who she insults.
[2008/06/10 14:19] Tegg Bode: Why probably full of offensive people like you :P
[2008/06/10 14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: name of native grid. OK makes sense
[2008/06/10 14:19] Dale Innis: Oh "name of the native grid", do we have a namespace for that yet?
[2008/06/10 14:20] Prokofy Neva: I hardly think it's insulting to tell people off who are spouting dogma as if this is brand new news -- it isn't
[2008/06/10 14:20] Prokofy Neva: we've heard about about 3 years now about "if you can see it you can copy it"
[2008/06/10 14:20] Prokofy Neva: but it's still against the TOS; and for good reason
[2008/06/10 14:20] Tegg Bode: Yes probaly spend rest of life trying to work out why acting like an arsehole doesn't get respect
[2008/06/10 14:20] Teravus Ousley: Prok, I'm sure you know about treating people kindly.. or maybe you don't
[2008/06/10 14:20] Prokofy Neva: other platforms take this more seriously and work on it without all the allergic reaction
[2008/06/10 14:21] Dale Innis: SL has pretty decent permissions and creator-intent. We should keep it that way.
[2008/06/10 14:21] Dale Innis: In my very humble opinion :)
[2008/06/10 14:21] Arawn Spitteler: is accostmed to working with Autistics: Prok, I have to wonder, why the Drama?
[2008/06/10 14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm putting it under MISC because it covers svc and viewer as well. Thoughts?
[2008/06/10 14:21] Dale Innis: So can we talk about Wim namespaces?
[2008/06/10 14:21] Prokofy Neva: Teravus, your comment is irrelevant.
[2008/06/10 14:21] Dale Innis: MISC sounds good to me. We need like "OVERALL UNIVERSE". :)
[2008/06/10 14:21] Squirrel Wood: You cannot keep people from trying to copy content. The goal here is to implement a system that makes it hard for them to get around it. And even if they find a way it is not going to work without much effort on their behalf.
[2008/06/10 14:21] Lazarus Longstaff: lols
[2008/06/10 14:21] Teravus Ousley: that's nice prok.
[2008/06/10 14:21] Prokofy Neva: um, why the autistics, Arawn? Seriously, normal question isn't drama or autism.
[2008/06/10 14:21] Dale Innis: Right, Squirrel!
[2008/06/10 14:22] Dale Innis: And it's not just preventing copying; it's representing and exposing and somewhat enforcing intent.
[2008/06/10 14:22] Arawn Spitteler: Prok, you're always making assumptions, that what you don't believe doesn't exist.
[2008/06/10 14:22] Teravus Ousley: I think I'll start caring when you show the respect that you're asking for.
[2008/06/10 14:22] Prokofy Neva: Squirrel, you'd be the last person I'd go to for work on such a project, as you start with a religious belief that it is not possible, and you don't care about it.
[2008/06/10 14:22] Dale Innis: ( the personal byplay is maybe not very interesting here? )
[2008/06/10 14:22] Tegg Bode: Yes untill you can come up with an uncrackable ungamable permissions system it's best leaving grids unconnected unless they want open permissions,
[2008/06/10 14:22] killa4 Baxton: hello everybody
[2008/06/10 14:22] Prokofy Neva: Arawn, you don't get to put out statements, and then cry for protection against "assumptions".
[2008/06/10 14:22] Dale Innis: Tegg, I disagree
[2008/06/10 14:23] Prokofy Neva: That's why I said they should build it into the license Tegg
[2008/06/10 14:23] Rex Cronon: hey killa4
[2008/06/10 14:23] Dale Innis: I think we can connect grids together as long as there are trust agreements in place,
[2008/06/10 14:23] Dale Innis: and we can represent intent.
[2008/06/10 14:23] Arawn Spitteler: Is that an Assumption, Prok?
[2008/06/10 14:23] Dale Innis: "Isolated or full-perm" seems a bit extreme...
[2008/06/10 14:23] Lazarus Longstaff: Sai, good luck with composing the JIRA. Drop by the IRC channel sometime. *winks*
[2008/06/10 14:23] Lazarus Longstaff: see ya peeps :D
[2008/06/10 14:23] Rex Cronon: bye lazarus
[2008/06/10 14:23] Dale Innis: Yeah, how do I arrange to notice the JIRA when it appears? :)
[2008/06/10 14:23] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, it makes no sense to discuss anything with you as you are unable to rethink your made up opinions or accept that you may be at fault with your assumptions. Think of me what you like but for me this discussion with you is over. Welcome to my mute list.
[2008/06/10 14:23] Teravus Ousley: take care :D
[2008/06/10 14:24] Dale Innis: wonders if he should start reading SL-DEV more carefully...
[2008/06/10 14:24] Prokofy Neva: Squirrel, I realize it's hard to break out of your zealous belief system and here normal common sense points, we've seen this before in Linden office hours, it's not worth debating.
[2008/06/10 14:24] Teravus Ousley: doesn't think that Prok cares about being on people's mute list either.
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: Does anyone know if we have a namespace for domains?
[2008/06/10 14:25] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles. This is Prok folks ... what did you expect? ;-)
[2008/06/10 14:25] Tegg Bode: Trust aggreements are fine if grids run compatible permission systems but if grid a allows all copy or all mod do you stop stoff going in and out to grid B
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: It'll be hard to record the "name of native grid" if we don't have a namespace to avoid collisionsn and all.
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: Tegg: yep, exactly!
[2008/06/10 14:25] Arawn Spitteler: expects better spelling, but is open to surprises.
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: If some grid doesn't enforce permissions, then only full-term stuff can travel there.
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: full-perm
[2008/06/10 14:25] Dale Innis: heh heh
[2008/06/10 14:26] Lillie Yifu: the name space for the name of the native grid should be a URI
[2008/06/10 14:26] Dale Innis: nods. Or a URN; I always forget which is which. :)
[2008/06/10 14:26] Teravus Ousley: well, and I suppose that would be full perm stuff with 'trusted grids' flag set
[2008/06/10 14:26] Cel Edman: Well the more I try to protect stuff, the more it seems to attract people to hack it, and reupload my work, so i`m even further away from home
[2008/06/10 14:26] Dale Innis: Yep! That's what I meant by "full". :)
[2008/06/10 14:27] Lillie Yifu: maybe not even "full perms" because many things that are "full perms" here in SL are full perms only here. That doesn't imply the creator wanted them given away everywhere.
[2008/06/10 14:27] Teravus Ousley: just clarifying, to be certain it was communicated :D
[2008/06/10 14:27] Dale Innis: Yep, quite right.
[2008/06/10 14:27] Tegg Bode: That's fair enough, and I guess des the control come from Grid A not accepting or more likely Grid B not releasing the assets?
[2008/06/10 14:27] Dale Innis: Will have to make up new words for these. :)
[2008/06/10 14:28] Lillie Yifu: truly full perms would be even to untrusted grids. That would b the creator's way of saying that something is in the public domain, or has some other kind of license which does not restrict where the content is taken.
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: Grid B not releasing seems better to me.
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: nods.
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: I would tend to release tiny example scripts full-interworld-perm, for instance.
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: Or whatever word we come up with. :)
[2008/06/10 14:28] Teravus Ousley: Yes preferrably each item has a bucket for a notecard describing what 1st life license it is under also
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: ooooo good thot!
[2008/06/10 14:28] Rex Cronon: i don't think that full perms equal publick domain
[2008/06/10 14:28] Cel Edman: hehe, and suddenly x-ammount of grids disable the content from shady asset server-Y. making your skin turn into missing image
[2008/06/10 14:28] Dale Innis: Actually 27 buckets, for all possible translations. :)
[2008/06/10 14:29] Teravus Ousley: haha
[2008/06/10 14:29] Dale Innis: Lillie said "or has some other...", Rex. :)
[2008/06/10 14:29] Lillie Yifu: that is why I said "or has some othe rkind of license..."
[2008/06/10 14:29] Dale Innis: grins.
[2008/06/10 14:29] j3rry Paine: what is the difference between a first life license and a second life license?
[2008/06/10 14:29] Dale Innis: eeek, must be going! Great discussion, alls. Keep it up. :)
[2008/06/10 14:30] Rex Cronon: a lot more money:)
[2008/06/10 14:30] Teravus Ousley: 1st life license can be upheld in court..
[2008/06/10 14:30] j3rry Paine: what is the difference between first life IP and second life IP?
[2008/06/10 14:30] Teravus Ousley: .. in theory. GPL.. CC, etc.
[2008/06/10 14:30] Teravus Ousley: I don't think there's any real differnce in 1st life IP and secondlife IP.
[2008/06/10 14:30] Lillie Yifu: secondlife I{ has better hair
[2008/06/10 14:31] Cel Edman: copyright laws.
[2008/06/10 14:31] j3rry Paine: yayyy!
[2008/06/10 14:31] Peter13 Peterman: Thanks for the discussion i will read it ( not good english understander ) and see if i can come uop with something
[2008/06/10 14:31] Peter13 Peterman: bye all
[2008/06/10 14:31] Teravus Ousley: take care
[2008/06/10 14:31] Rex Cronon: i think that copyright laws apply here too
[2008/06/10 14:31] Rex Cronon: bye peter
[2008/06/10 14:32] j3rry Paine: yes, and better shoes
[2008/06/10 14:32] j3rry Paine: if they don't we have made a terrible mistake
[2008/06/10 14:32] Aki Shichiroji: I've got to head off as well. Have a good rest of your evening, folks :)
[2008/06/10 14:32] Cel Edman: If server X host illegal my work, I can ask the provider for a certain takedown, depending on the countries law the server is in i guess
[2008/06/10 14:32] Aki Shichiroji: This has been a good read :)
[2008/06/10 14:32] Rex Cronon: i am going too. bye everybody
[2008/06/10 14:32] Teravus Ousley: yes and sue for damages or reach a licensing agreement
[2008/06/10 14:32] j3rry Paine: same as you can now
[2008/06/10 14:32] Lillie Yifu: that would be how to od it
[2008/06/10 14:33] Rex Cronon: have "fun":)
[2008/06/10 14:33] j3rry Paine: seeya tera thanks
[2008/06/10 14:33] Teravus Ousley: can't wait to read how he'll be demonized on Second Thoughts(Prok's blog)
[2008/06/10 14:33] Lillie Yifu: expand the perms field, have a field for licnense information, which could be JSON or XML formated. This would have to include at a minimum the native grid of theobject, but could include the tursted grid if thusted field is set, a pointer to a locator of license or other information with a descritption and so on
[2008/06/10 14:34] Lillie Yifu: so the only thing that would ned to be added would be expanding current permissions
[2008/06/10 14:34] Lillie Yifu: and one field that would be the bucket for "everything we need to tag an asset with to convey IP information, even if this may change in format later."
[2008/06/10 14:35] Teravus Ousley: right. though It's hard to predict what will fit there in the interum..
[2008/06/10 14:35] Teravus Ousley: .. that was why I suggested a notecard.
[2008/06/10 14:35] Cel Edman: Well I already get asked by people if they can use my work on open grids, I allow but my tos states, they should include that (parts) are created by me, and models bought in secondlife
[2008/06/10 14:35] Teravus Ousley: :D
[2008/06/10 14:35] Lillie Yifu: since this field would tend to only be referred to during a relatively expensive operation anyway - moving grids - it doesn't need to be spread out over lots of fields.
[2008/06/10 14:35] Lillie Yifu: notecards are ugly
[2008/06/10 14:36] Teravus Ousley: binary buckets are also though :(
[2008/06/10 14:36] Lillie Yifu: and it should not be editable directly by users anyway
[2008/06/10 14:37] Teravus Ousley: not by consumers.. but by the creator,
[2008/06/10 14:37] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
[2008/06/10 14:37] Teravus Ousley: The creator has to pick or write their licence, right?
[2008/06/10 14:37] Lillie Yifu: even by the creator there are going to be limits.
[2008/06/10 14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1272
[2008/06/10 14:38] Lillie Yifu: brcause there is the creator, the owner and the licensee
[2008/06/10 14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Create a set of permissions flags immediately that identifies "creation grid only [grid name]"/"trusted gird"/"any grid" to apply to all existing permissions settings with "creation [grid name
[2008/06/10 14:38] Lillie Yifu: the creator and the owner aren't teh same thing
[2008/06/10 14:38] Teravus Ousley: I don't know maybe I'm looking at it wrong.. but I thought it was the creator's interests that we are trying to protect?
[2008/06/10 14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: With the demonstration last week of logging into a private OpenSim from Second Life, the permissions issues of a "meta grid" are now real and have to be addressed immediately by Linden Lab. The simplest case will be to assume that a content creator did NOT intend for his or her creation to leave the Second Life grid, and the permissions system must reflect this for all existing and future content. If the creator does not set the permission explicitly, the setting is "Creation Grid Only [grid name]" In other words, all existing and new content created in Second LIfe must now be flagged "Creation Grid Only [Second LIfe Grid]", until the creator explicitly changes the flag.

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 10

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