User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 08 26

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	Er not IM - Group Notice
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I haven't heard of that one, but that's definitely bad
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	I misstype
[11:08]	Creem Pye:	or just send the object manually after you IM =)
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I forgot about office hours.
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I remembered earlier this morning, then got involved in some project.
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	I got a group notice with attached note, clicked it to open, and its frozen
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	When you showed up, your nametag didn't rez right away.
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	OK worked
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler filed his first wiki entry, on this point: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2901
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Alright. These office hours are so free-form, sometimes I don't know where to start.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Especially when I don't have much to announce
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I guess 1.24-Server has finished deploying
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	but MONO isn't enabled unless you've got a special viewer, right?
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	I found another Sim (open space type) that had strange unexplainable lag -
[11:11]	Creem Pye:	we're still 1.23 here
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	That is, you can't compile MONO scripts unless you have the viewer.
[11:11]	Creem Pye:	but a few sims have 1.24
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	I think it's on roughly half the grid now
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	When's the 1.21RC Viewer coming out?
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i thought that 1.24 will finish deployment on friday
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Well, you get the Aditi viewer and hack it to run on MG. It works.
[11:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	oh? is it the newest viewer? or another one?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	you're right... 1.23-Server here
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	so I guess it hasn't finished deploying
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Crashes/freezes a lot tho
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	now that you mention it... I seem to recall an email that i skimmed... 1.24 is partially deployed but will sit like that for a while
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wasn't able to open a menu, with any <ctrl>g. That might be a Linden Only option, or I might have had hte instructions wrong.
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I know there were some crash fixes being done this morning
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh, I'm under-informed because I can't take the time to read all my email carefully.
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	u tried ctrl+shift+g?
[11:13]	Creem Pye:	I'm using hte preview viewer now
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - it's some other more complicated modifier like Rex suggested
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, simulator crash fixes?
[11:14]	Creem Pye:	and managed to compile some objects to Mono in another sim
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think so, but I don't recall what all I tried.
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Yes, there was at least one crash-on-exit that was preventing state saving
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, are you talking about the pre-connect grid selection widget? For connecting to test grids/
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	?
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, that one.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I think it is CTRL+SHIFT+G, but I can never keep it straight
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I just try until it shows up
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	but you have to type it before you press the [Connect] button
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, sounds like Simon is more up to date with the status of the 1.24 effort
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wonder if there's a file or edit menu, with that option.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I don't really have many announcements to make. Lately I've been working on getting our server code to compile on gcc-4 so we can move forward to some newer hardware that the operations team is trying to set up
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler would like to lobby: On SVC-2901 SVC-1299, could we get that fixed for C#?
[11:17]	Creem Pye:	I know that they're planning a 1.24.2 server release to fix some bugs, but is the Mono bytecode format going to change anytime soon?
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	u might be able to find the var that controls the grid selection if u search debug settings
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	Start up options you are wanting?
[11:18]	Creem Pye:	the --loginuri switch when launching the viewer allows you to select the grid as well
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Is the MONO bytecode going to change anytime soon? The MONO bytecode is somewhat compatible with C# bytecode... it doesn't change very fast I think
[11:18]	Creem Pye:	so you could probably make a set of shortcuts to the viewer with different grid arguments
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client_parameters
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	we add some extra magic bytecodes for the micro-threading stuff we do, but we won't be changing that quickly either
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	I'd guess it would be stable for a while (year+)
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	er... once it settles down ;-)
[11:19]	Creem Pye:	ok, just making sure that I'm not wasting my time by recompiling stuff to Mono already =)
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	just kidding. You really want to ask Babbage Linden that. But I think this is a good time to recompile some stuff to MONO
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... SVC-2901
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2901
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	I closed it in favor of editing this wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSitTarget
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Wow, I don't seem to recall this Havok4 breakage/fix associated with SVC-2901 at all
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	They definitely want people to try it and report any problems (and any good news :) )
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, I will study SVC-2901 later (making a note). I think this one is going to take me a while to fully grok. But ok, lobby submitted.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	I have a podium, in which I use SLPP to correct the position, and it's a lot easier than trying to work out the mysteries of Sitting. Here's my edit to the wiki: #
	# Sit Target sets the position for the Agent Target, Advanced -> Character -> View Agent Target, and has a displacement that will require a bit of examination.
	* llSetLinkPrimitiveParams seems to be the easy work-around.
	* Animation is relative to the Agent Target, but the Agent Target isn't described by the animation.
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's an issue, that H1 was all screwed up, and nobody really documented it, beyond SVC-1299. It's now documented, but C# shouldn't have to follow.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Correct, the avatar's (agent's) true position is not defined by the animation. An animation can shift the offset between the visible avatar and its true position
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Animations are a sequence of position changes relative to some local default
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	Something else, I should wishlist, is that the llDetectedPos() doesn't get the agent target.
[11:26]	Creem Pye:	so what's up with the Mouselook camera being in the left eye and not in the center? =)
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	and you can "animate" the offset of the avatar's visible root
[11:26]	Mifune Thibaud:	aha I was thinking the same thing
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, more context please for that llDetectedPos() issue.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno about the Mouselook camera location. You say it is located in one of the eye's instead from the center between them?
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Something that came up, in a teleporting staircase, and I have to do more testing. If you click to set the SitTarget, Sit Target gets set relative to the Avatar position, rather than Agent Target
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Unless I was just dealling with the undocumented offset.
[11:28]	Creem Pye:	yeah, if I make a perfectly symmetrical animation and sit on a cube with another prim aligned in front of it, I need to move the avatar ~2.4cm to the right to face the other prim directly
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	(I mostly noticed this when I first made an airplane with a gunsight)
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, I'll make a note and ask Richard Linden about it however...
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	and I figure that 2.4cm might be the distance between the center of my head and my left eye
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	sounds like that little left-eye-offset feature has forced you (and probably others) to make workarounds... it may be unfixable -- a misbug
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	a misbug is a "feature" that is really a "bug"
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Once documented, it becomes a misfeature.
[11:30]	Creem Pye:	yeah, I guess fixing that would break lots of things that compensated for it
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	misfeatures are bugs that are actually features
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	I think
[11:31]	Aybabtu Aabye:	are avatars basically objects in SL, with a bunch of sculpted prims? or something a bit different?
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	IS there a way to change the camera position of only mouselook?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	the avatar collision shape is a single prim
[11:31]	Creem Pye:	not that i'm aware of, kitto
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't the camera controllable?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	it is shaped something like a squashed cylinder with a very sharp point on the bottom
[11:32]	Aybabtu Aabye:	what i mean is, is it possible to allow us to create avatar objects
[11:32]	Aybabtu Aabye:	that we can then script with animations
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I don't know if there is a mouselook offset adjustment
[11:32]	Creem Pye:	that would be a nice feature to have though =)
[11:32]	Mifune Thibaud:	yes definitely
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	however... if you're making content you'll need to handle the default mouselook offset anyway -- most people woudn't adjust it even if it was easy
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	I have Tiny customers who complain they cant see over the steam engine they ride, in mouselook
[11:33]	Mifune Thibaud:	there is a ForceMouselook function, but not one to adjust the offset of the camera
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Bolster Seats? Check camera position, and use slpp to bolster them up.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	lol
[11:34]	Aybabtu Aabye:	something that would allow us to say create a scripted football team, and allow sl players to call in plays
[11:34]	Aybabtu Aabye:	or script bot soldiers in a combat area
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Foot ball is bot soldiers.
[11:35]	Creem Pye:	hm the best looking option would be to use a scriptable viewer to do that... creating proper AI would be pretty time-consuming htough
[11:36]	Aybabtu Aabye:	it would save us from creating many prim body parts, and writing script to do what animations already do
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Feature wishlist brainstorm... I wish I could be more helpful but I'm just loaded with other stuff to do
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	many of these feature ideas are not even on the schedule
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Is the owner of that laggy Sim here?
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object Animation certainly belongs on a wish list. I think it's something Andrew should encourage anouter to do, maybe as a stuidy project.
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	CG has a mock newby, on his parcel, that would profit.
[11:38]	Creem Pye:	like a texture animation function, but with sculpt maps?
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	That sculpt texture animation idea has been kicked around I think
[11:38]	Aybabtu Aabye:	how do i get av objects on the schedule?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Residents have already implemented sequenced sculpty settings
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	"av objects" ? Arawn, could you elaborate?
[11:40]	Aybabtu Aabye:	whatever it is that we are, minus the human player control
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm not sure what Mock Primatars would be called, but AV Objects was Ay's term
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, you want NPC's (Non Player Characters)
[11:40]	Aybabtu Aabye:	the collision bubble, the shapes prims
[11:40]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	We've kicked the idea around over the years
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	NP_Primatars
[11:40]	Aybabtu Aabye:	coding something that fakes animation would seem overkill since we already have animations
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think it is on the schedule yet
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know how to get it on the schedule... just too much work to do
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Animations are viewer side?
[11:41]	Aybabtu Aabye:	viewer side is fine by me
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	when u say animation, u mean animation of prims in a linked set?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	one thing that recently got some momentum internall here at LL was the idea of mesh objects, and import/export pipelines
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	such as Maya --> SL
[11:41]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is it a different office hours that would need to go to, to get it considered?
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	There were some people here at LL who thought such a pipeline would be a waste... better to spend resources just making our in-world tools better
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	Some people have the good ideas :)
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, I'm not sure who would be able to speak with authority on NPC's...
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have you Jiraed, Ay? Untill you do, office hours can help the wording.
[11:43]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok
[11:43]	Aybabtu Aabye:	importing 3d models from outside SL would be a godsend
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	just about any senior developer would have an opinion about them... Babbage, Runitai,
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	An Avatar counts as a single prim, for linking. Is that what a viewer sees?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Zero, and Qarl
[11:43]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i cant log into jira, tried for months
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, the avatar is a special-case single prim
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	it is a single prim for collisions, and for linking
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	but is handled very differently for updates and rendering
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	That single prim isn't usable, outside Agents?
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, that problem with the phantom table - did anyone look at that or fix it?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, I thought the jira login was the same as your SL login
[11:45]	Aybabtu Aabye:	having non-avatat objects behave that way would be nice, some or one for physical collisions and the rest used in rendering only
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've no problem logging in, just with navigation.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I got your message about the table. Sounds like it is the "anti-avatar-entrapment" code kicking in
[11:45]	Aybabtu Aabye:	it should be, concierge can do it as me apparently, but it doesnt work when i do it, tried mozilla and firefox
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	that is, your avatar is getting into a state of penetration and then it decides to stop colliding just your avatar with that object
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Isnt that supposed to eject the avatar from the interseting prim, Andrew?
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	if you leave the table and come back it collides, which is exactly how that system works
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, it tries to eject, but not for long... one second or so I think
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	No no - I leave the table - come back and its STILL phantom
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	But for another Av, at the same time, the table is solid
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	if it succeeds in pushing the avatar (moving it) it will continue to try to push and won't disable the collisions
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	When I saw that, on my bridge, it seems to've been a sim error
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... that would be unexpected Kitto, when you stop penetrating (out of table) it should start colliding when you come back
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	so there is indeed a bug there
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Looks like it - minor one
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Sometimes
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	I read your IM, but how easy is it to reproduce?
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Its happeend with the floor too
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Not easy
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Does it happen in other sims?
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Just sometimes on TP. Less than 10%
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	I guess I'll have to actually go look at it to understand what is going on. The table isn't linked to the ground is it?
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Personally I only see it in that one sim
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	er to the floor?
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Table is not linked to anything - its 2 prims linked together
[11:49]	Aybabtu Aabye:	are larger sims or same size but differently scaled sims idea on the schedule?
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	I did see another Av apparently have the same problem, in this sim, with the 'foor' prims here, at the end of last weeks meeting
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, that is not on the schedule. However the schedule I'm thinking about is not very far out. I'm thinking of the "short term schedule"... say three months our or so
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	that was me
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	i was walking through the floor:)
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Has the sim been reset, yet?
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Rex: After TP in? And for others the floor was solid?
[11:51]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok, i guess what im trying to find out is how do things get on the schedule, long term or short term, and how are ideas reviewed
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	i tried to tp, but didn't as the sim i tried to go to was down
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	It is quite complicated Aybabtu, and fluid
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	or it used to be...
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	when i tp in here, i almost end up on the floor above
[11:52]	Creem Pye:	I remember Andrew saying several months ago that making something like a "megasim" would be a major endeavor in terms of SL's design
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	there are some strategy meetings going on where they are trying to plan farther out
[11:52]	Creem Pye:	but there are lots of people who want large-scaled sims, so maybe someday...
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not participating... to much stuff to do
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	Run megasim on a Cray?
[11:53]	Creem Pye:	big, but mostly empty =P
[11:53]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i think andrew also said that changing the scale of the sim would be far easier than creating a megasim, apologies for talking about in 3rd person Andrew
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, I think the driver for that feature will be "competition". When our competitors catch up and start providing dynamic region sizes we'll bite that bullet
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	There are a lot of assumptions in the back-end system, for example, about region sizes
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	guess we need to prod Hipihi about that feature then =P
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler should now be sunk into the floor, and will leave the table's bounding box.
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	yes u r arawn
[11:54]	Aybabtu Aabye:	maybe this one is easier, how about sim owner controls on the script engine
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Well seeing as how 'Open Space' sims are abused - what of even larger area sims?
[11:55]	Aybabtu Aabye:	so that no script could actually mean no script
[11:55]	Aybabtu Aabye:	or perhaps restricted script to objects with a specified group tag
[11:55]	Aybabtu Aabye:	or creator
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	oops
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	That would be good, but people will get upset when their attachments stop working (even if that helps out)
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's not happening here, but seems to be sim specific, proably server specific.
[11:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	if it sim level thing, they can complain to the sim owner
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	Correct - we're looking into the load attachments have on performance
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	"sim owner controls on the script engine"?
[11:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i ask because i would like more control over the quality of the experience at my sim
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	I see that as block or throttle scripts in attachments
[11:57]	Aybabtu Aabye:	as a sim owner i would like to be able to not allow scripts other than those already running on the sim
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Yay Simon! Do it!
[11:57]	Aybabtu Aabye:	block and/or throttle, yes
[11:58]	Creem Pye:	it wouldn't be a bad default to give attachments' scripts lowest priority =)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I think Babbage Linden is planning on working on better script scheduling post MONO
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	it might be better if u can say: as long as script belonging to users don't go over 1MB than they can run:)
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	'nice' for attachments :)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	that is, being able to block out srcipt resources... so much for parcel owners, so much for visitor scripts, and so on
[11:58]	Aybabtu Aabye:	if lowest priority means 0 time slice then yeah that would be good
[11:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes that would be even better
[11:59]	Creem Pye:	is your goal more about sim performance or blocking attachmetn functionality, aybabtu?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	yeah the script prioritization has to be working before we could say, open up the balance numbers for sim owners to tweak
[11:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	both
[11:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	balance sounds complicated, a toggle could work
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	well, I meant the prioritization numbers
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there any distinction between Linden Estate Owner Authority, and Linden Server Owner Authority?
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, is Anyone working on Script Prioritization?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	suppose 50% of script resources were devoted to parcel owners, then 25% to attachments, and 25% to visiting scripts
[12:00]	Aybabtu Aabye:	would that be customizeable?
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	ideally those numbers could be tweaked by sim owners, but perhaps in practice it wouldn't have to happen often
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Mmm - Land-Group option rather than parcel owners
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	that is, if the parcel owners were only using half of their allocated resources then the attachments/visitors could use the spare cycles
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	so that you only get true throttling when the script space gets full
[12:02]	Aybabtu Aabye:	thats a good direction
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	although... currently the scripts just try to go as fast as they can...
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	it would seem that the parcel scripts, if there were any, would just go as fast as they could until they had used up all their CPU cycles available
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	LandOwner Attachments would be one policy question.
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	dunno... Babbage was going to work on that, but has not started yet, as far as I know.
[12:03]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is there a way that you could allow sim owners to restrict things like textures brought onto their sim, or media played on the sim
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps Simon knows more about it?
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	If its Owner / Others only choice, its not going to be useful for the areas where its needed - those are group builds.
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Textures are brought in by UUID, and aren't visible to the engine beyond that, afaik
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	I don't know about textures or media - I don't think there is any specific code blocking that
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, if the parcel has a group affiliation then I suspect group scripts would fall into the parcel pool
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	Textures aren't much of a sim load except for passing the data around to everyone
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Viewer Side, I think Textures dcfould be throttled.
[12:05]	Aybabtu Aabye:	not on the sim proper, but in the sims virtual space and all those in it, its a huge load issue on the clients
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	Textures are a sim load because the simulator's legacy messaging system packes and sends the data, I think.
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	What one needs it to allow group objects scripts to run ok, but reduce time for any av attached scripts, or non-group objects
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	There was a "HTTP textures" project that was partially done, by Steve Linden
[12:06]	Creem Pye:	hm, "visual mute" of avatars was talked about a long time ago, but I wonder if/when that feature will reach trunk
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	last I heard he said all the code is done client-side... just need to do the server-side work
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Many class 4 sims were compromised by having too many textures in them
[12:06]	Aybabtu Aabye:	visual mute sounds interesting
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	I'll make a note to look into the script code - the AV scripts are run at a different step in main frame loop than regular objects, so perhaps there's something there that can be tweaked
[12:07]	Kitto Flora:	Limited RAM - footprint too big
[12:07]	Aybabtu Aabye:	thanks simon'
[12:07]	Creem Pye:	BigPapi was the one who told me about visual mute.. he might know more about its status
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	ugh... information overload -- too many ideas, not enough time
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'm finding it difficult to keep track of all the ideas, expecially given the slow progress I've been having at getting stuff done.
[12:08]	Kitto Flora:	Edit apearance, change your head size to hold it all :)
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have buttons, because we haven't time to do everything by firmware. Prioritisze Involvement
[12:08]	Aybabtu Aabye:	sorry, hopefully these things can make it on the list or schedule and get looked into sometime
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	ideas, current state of old projects, the schedule, it is all a blur
[12:09]	Kitto Flora:	Time for lunch!
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't there an idea base, where Lindens can choose things to worry about? We have to debug Ay's Jira Access.
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	ok, I have a new jira :)
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps it is just today that I can't cope. yeah lunchtime
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	I'm hungry too ... thanks everyone for coming
[12:09]	Aybabtu Aabye:	mmm food
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	Bye
[12:09]	Creem Pye:	bye
[12:09]	Aybabtu Aabye:	bye lindens
[12:10]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Aybabtu, how does your jira login fail? What happens when you try?
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do you know your password, Ay, or is that lost behind the asterisks?
[12:10]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye
[12:11]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i tried for months, gave up, trying every day got pointless, havent tried in weeks, back then it was an invalid username/password, i dont remember the exact wording
[12:11]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i do know the password
[12:11]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i dont have the remember my password box checked
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	And the login name you are trying to use is "Aybabtu Aabye", both words with a space in the same text field?
[12:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes with title case just like that
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	were you ever able to login to the public jira?
[12:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	The credentials you provided cannot be determined to be authentic.
[12:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	no
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	Tell you what... I don't know how the public jira is administered. I don't have admin access, and don't know who does, or who would handle it, but I'll find out and tell you who to talk to, or what can be done.
[12:13]	Arawn Spitteler has such a basic account, as to be blocked from downloading lindens, but logs into Jira
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	Mostly so I can learn who/how/what on public jira administration
[12:14]	Aybabtu Aabye:	thanks andrew, i realize my jira issue cant be that important in the big picture, i can read jira i just cant log in
[12:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there an NPC Jira? I'd vote for it, and Ay should too.
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	alright, I'm going to go get lunch. See you around.
[12:15]	Aybabtu Aabye:	later