Doc Team/2010-03-17

Transcript

[12:58]	Daniel Voyager:	finding this clothing took a while to find lol
[12:58]	Torley Linden:	i suspect we'll be using more Shared Media here in the future given our transition...
[12:58]	Torley Linden:	and it's JEREMY LINDEN in the hizzouse!
[12:58]	Torley Linden	has pinged you.
[12:58]	Torley Linden:	hihi Eddi!
[12:58]	Torley Linden:	nice shirt, Jeremy
[12:58]	Torley Linden	has pinged you.
[12:58]	Jeremy Linden:	O HAI
[12:58]	Eddi Decosta:	Hi Torley ㋡
[12:58]	Marianne McCann:	Hiya
[12:58]	Eddi Decosta:	how are you? ㋡
[12:58]	Daniel Voyager:	Torley the sign behind you could be updated to viewer 2 screen or something relating it :D - suggestion
[12:59]	Daniel Voyager:	hey Marianne
[12:59]	Derek Galaxy:	hey jeremy
[12:59]	Derek Galaxy	has pinged you.
[12:59]	Eddi Decosta:	hello Marianne ㋡
[12:59]	Torley Linden:	Daniel, yeah! the movie could be changed... hmmm...
[12:59]	Daniel Voyager:	:)
[12:59]	Torley Linden:	Mari! welcome!
[13:00]	Marianne McCann:	Thankoo, Torley - see yer havin fun with the alpha layer
[13:00]	Torley Linden:	indeed i am! i had so much fun... i momentarily lost my head
[13:00]	Marianne McCann:	/me giggles
[13:00]	Paul54 Roffo:	oops
[13:01]	Eddi Decosta:	i need to go before 2 pm, i organise a group pictures ㋡
[13:01]	Torley Linden:	oooh what kinda group picture? friends, fashion, both, Eddi?
[13:01]	Derek Galaxy:	hey paul
[13:01]	Marianne McCann:	Off topic: I want to cortially invite all to the 6th anniversary of Nova Albion this coming Saturday at 2 SLT/PDT
[13:01]	Paul54 Roffo:	Hello how are you doing derek
[13:01]	Marianne McCann:	cordially
[13:01]	Paul54 Roffo:	top O the Mornin
[13:01]	Torley Linden:	i posted a new tip to http://secondlife.com/tnt thanks to data: URI you can put custom HTML on Shared Media WITHOUT uploading a webpage! https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Shared_Media_and_data_URI has more details
[13:01]	Torley Linden:	the time has sure flown, Mari...
[13:01]	Daniel Voyager:	sounds great Marianne, adds it to my calendar
[13:01]	Torley Linden:	look who's dropping in! welcome aboard
[13:01]	Eddi Decosta:	Torley surprise for Pathfinder, i send the pictures to the boston office after ㋡
[13:02]	Bronson Blackadder:	crap
[13:02]	Bronson Blackadder:	sorry didnt mean to land on you
[13:02]	Marianne McCann:	Very cool, Eddi
[13:02]	Torley Linden:	awwe Eddie that's very thoughtful of you
[13:02]	Aargle Zymurgy:	np, Bronson
[13:02]	Eddi Decosta:	㋡
[13:02]	Aargle Zymurgy:	I should have cleared out
[13:02]	Marianne McCann:	Gonna miss that mage
[13:02]	Jeremy Linden:	What about the Boston office?
[13:03]	Torley Linden:	Pathfinder was a severely positive influence on my early SL...
[13:03]	Aargle Zymurgy:	oh, fun trick for all you with high-traffic landing points: put in an invisible wedge just below the spot and set it rotating. people dropping in slide off in different directions
[13:03]	Eddi Decosta:	㋡
[13:03]	Derek Galaxy:	i know where you hide your gold paul lol
[13:03]	Daniel Voyager:	giggles
[13:03]	Marianne McCann:	Interesting thought, Aargle. Like it
[13:03]	Torley Linden:	he was main founder of the Linden Village which expanded to include this Doc Dock here...
[13:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	I like that idea
[13:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:03]	Torley Linden:	hahaha Aargle, where is this in use? i'd like to see this firsthand! very creative
[13:03]	Jeremy Linden:	Aargle, or set it to high speed for extra fun.
[13:03]	Marianne McCann:	Ya. Ableside looks sso... wrong... without his spot
[13:04]	Aargle Zymurgy:	my good friend Athena Sterling has one set up.... let me find the LM
[13:04]	Marianne McCann:	Ambleside*
[13:04]	Marianne McCann:	I've not played much with the alpha layer yet, though I may do so with my shoes, to get ride of the invisiprim. I do like the tattoo layer, though
[13:04]	Aargle Zymurgy:	I don't land on that anymore, though... not since I"m an estate manager. :-)
[13:04]	Torley Linden:	this is what i do now... when i get landmarks, i drag them to my faves bar so i remember to visit them right after
[13:05]	Eddi Decosta:	oh hi Jeremy ㋡
[13:05]	Eddi Decosta	has pinged you.
[13:05]	Torley Linden:	thanks Aargle!
[13:05]	Jeremy Linden:	Hulloy!
[13:05]	Jeremy Linden:	er, Hello!
[13:05]	Aargle Zymurgy:	no problem.
[13:05]	Jeremy Linden:	Typefail
[13:05]	Derek Galaxy:	✖ FAIL ✖
[13:05]	Aargle Zymurgy:	Well, Back to the old drawing board
[13:05]	Jeremy Linden:	I like it!
[13:05]	Eddi Decosta:	LOL , other localization by Jeremy :p
[13:05]	Eddi Decosta	has pinged you.
[13:06]	Eddi Decosta:	hey Tech ㋡
[13:06]	Paul54 Roffo:	sorry Derek
[13:06]	Marianne McCann:	A question, as this came up in yesterday's Bay City meeting: Would it be appropriate for mainland communities like Bay City to use the SL Wiki to provide some of their history, information, and even planning, or would that be out of scope?
[13:06]	Derek Galaxy:	im getting a lot of lag lol
[13:06]	Torley Linden:	Eddi, you usin' a gesture to make those ㋡?
[13:06]	Marianne McCann:	Lag happens.
[13:06]	Paul54 Roffo:	did you read my im Derek
[13:06]	Torley Linden:	Mari, that's a beautiful question. and since it's strongly about Second Life culture, that's directly relevant and welcome!
[13:06]	Eddi Decosta:	well, torley honestly im on the snowglobe test 1.4 for the moment .. i know to many crahs in v2 :(
[13:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	It sounds no more inappropriate than to make a user entry
[13:07]	Eddi Decosta:	crash*
[13:07]	Marianne McCann:	Woo!
[13:07]	Marianne McCann:	On topic at last!
[13:07]	Marianne McCann:	/me grins
[13:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me's found he can't map-tp to other altitudes, in SL2
[13:07]	Torley Linden:	the more of our history we can archive on wiki.secondlife.com the better -- exceptions include X-rated content (if someone is keeping Zindra journals) but i imagine that's not a prob for Bay City... ;)
[13:07]	Paul54 Roffo:	lag has its good points you know your not going to get anywhere so you can rest up for a bit :-)
[13:07]	Marianne McCann:	It was somethignt hat was brought up as we plan our own 2nd anniversary event and other things around the city.
[13:08]	Derek Galaxy:	lol good point
[13:08]	Marianne McCann:	Cool. Um... Where might it be best to do it? Simply start an entry on Bay City, or is there a good community hierarchy to start from?
[13:08]	Daniel Voyager:	Talking of archieve I added some more info on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/History_of_Second_Life  :)
[13:08]	Torley Linden:	and of course as you know Mari, please add to http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Culture category.
[13:08]	Qie Niangao:	oh, right... Nova Albion's anniversary is... like... now, right?
[13:08]	Eddi Decosta:	Torley, i can use the v2 picture to do some explaine in french on a other website?
[13:08]	Torley Linden:	yeah there's not even a http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bay_City page, go ahead and claim that
[13:08]	Marianne McCann:	Qie - this coming weekend at 2
[13:08]	SLB Wirefly:	hellow
[13:09]	Marianne McCann:	Consider it caimed
[13:09]	Torley Linden:	Eddi, which V2 picture?
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Second Life Birthday?
[13:09]	Eddi Decosta:	UI pictures
[13:09]	Hope McAlpine:	hi ya eeryone
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Hope, we finally have Torley, and can ask how soon hhis videos will have Subtitles
[13:09]	Second Life:	Entering god mode, level 200
[13:09]	Hope McAlpine:	( rezzing... rezzzing... please stand by .rezzzzzzzzzinnnggg)
[13:09]	Hope McAlpine:	grins
[13:10]	Marianne McCann:	I'll work that up this afternoon
[13:10]	Hope McAlpine:	oh mavelous !!!!
[13:10]	Torley Linden:	Eddi, yup, that's fine. it's generally OK to use pictures of the Viewer user interface and such for explanatory and educational purposes. the main thing that's not cool is misrepresentation, like someone claiming they made it.
[13:10]	Hope McAlpine:	that would be wonderful
[13:10]	Torley Linden:	Arawn, have you seen YouTube's auto-subtitles? not the best but, kinda funny...
[13:10]	Hope McAlpine:	smiles at Torley
[13:10]	Hope McAlpine:	I ll have to see that Torley :-)
[13:10]	Torley Linden:	i wonder if there's a way to have subtitles be editable like a wiki... then that makes it a lot more open
[13:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Something more relevant to TorleyTuts, than to Second Life, is how soon Subtitles will enjoy computer translation
[13:10]	Hope McAlpine:	Im not seeing eveyone here yet
[13:11]	Hope McAlpine:	Torley Tuts?
[13:11]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:11]	Bronson Blackadder:	king tut
[13:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Torley does that videos, that don't transllate out of english well
[13:11]	Hope McAlpine:	ha ha ha
[13:11]	Aargle Zymurgy:	gotta love those sub-titles: I got my hands on a bootleg "LOTR" video and the subtitles where positively comical. Any reference to Gondor became "Condo" and any time the translater found a word that started with "F" he assumed it was "Frodo". The humor value was great. My favorite line instead of "Fly! You fools!" was "Frodo, you fool!"
[13:11]	Hope McAlpine:	ok
[13:11]	Torley Linden:	yes Hope video tutorials i made, http://secondlife.com/video or http://youtube.com/secondlife
[13:11]	Torley Linden:	hahahahaaha Aargle, OMG...
[13:11]	Torley Linden:	Frodo takes a verbal beating XD
[13:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Frodo Ewe
[13:12]	Jeremy Linden:	Language, Arawn :-P
[13:12]	Elite Runner:	Hi Torley
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	heya Elite!
[13:13]	Elite Runner:	Hi everyone
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	Elite you've got quite a constant and recognizable color scheme yourself eh?
[13:13]	Elite Runner:	yeah
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	does anyone else here like Caprica? excited for Tron Legacy?
[13:14]	Marianne McCann:	I'm guardedly optimistic about Tron Legacy. shame it does not have Wendy Carlos on the soundtrack
[13:14]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I like Caprica, although a bit drawn out like a soap opera. I saw Tron when it first came out. Going to be instesting to see the actually sequel. It's not a remake.
[13:14]	Jeremy Linden:	Wait wait... Is Tron Legacy the same thing as TR2N?
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	the built-in Viewer Help in Viewer 2 now has SEARCH! newly added, try it out... Help menu > Second Life Help or click the "?" on just about any window
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	yes Jeremy
[13:15]	Torley Linden	has pinged you.
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	what it evolved into, anyway
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	Mari, yeah, i HEART her music, i would've liked to have a collab with her and Daft Punk. Daft Punk are great with catchy riffs but their sense of counterpoint and synthetic orchestration isn't as matured...
[13:15]	Aargle Zymurgy:	hey, I just had an idea as a suggestion for the new browser. the usefulness won't be immediately obvious, but let me toss it out.
[13:15]	Marianne McCann:	exactly. And what a combination *that* would be
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, yeah, that's how i'm finding the plot arcs with Caprica. cracks me up when there are mentions of things that can happen in SL, like in the last ep, lack of flying.
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	please do suggest, Aargle!
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	my eyes bugged out when i first heard SOB... that's Switched-On Bach. and reading the stories of how Carlos had to splice all those phrases together, that's insane.
[13:16]	Aargle Zymurgy:	is it possible to add icons to each menu element? I ask, because I find myself telling people using the non-english version of the client to use a specific menu entry, but the text isn't the same, so even a screen-capture can't help.
[13:16]	Elite Runner:	I like the shared media feature in which I watch youtube videos
[13:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Labs is always interested in stealing idea-um, user feedback
[13:17]	Aargle Zymurgy:	but a screen-cap of the suggested menu item if it had icons on the menus would transcend language barriers
[13:17]	Torley Linden:	hmm that's an interesting idea Aargle, and i recall in some cases, the sidebar (which is iconic) came up as an alternate route for some of these menu options. but, do you mean, an icon for each option or each top-level menu? some are harder to represent than others...
[13:17]	Jeremy Linden:	Hmm... You mean unique icons for every single menu item?
[13:17]	Torley Linden:	^ this
[13:17]	Aargle Zymurgy:	yeah, I realize it might be tough in the uniqueness menu
[13:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Screen Capture, loaded as MoaP?
[13:18]	Derek Galaxy:	i think basic icons for common functions would be helpful
[13:18]	Aargle Zymurgy:	but, for example, it's brutal to explain to someone who only speaks polish how to find the "Set Scripts To Running in Selection" entry
[13:18]	Paul54 Roffo:	Im not sure if anyone has mentioned this but has anyone coplained about the difficulty in finding the musik properties and turning the music off
[13:18]	Aargle Zymurgy:	the basic things are obvious. it's like my example that's tough
[13:19]	Derek Galaxy:	a script icon with a "no" symbol over it...
[13:19]	Marianne McCann:	Paul54. Often, yes.
[13:19]	Torley Linden:	we do have a "SLapp" functionality which can provide links that, when clicked, open windows and such. i don't know if that extends to localization.
[13:19]	Derek Galaxy:	i miss the tiny icons in the system folders like cloths scripts textures ect.
[13:19]	Torley Linden:	it'd be cool if you could paste a link and it'd open something on someone's screen for them (security precautions in place, of course).
[13:19]	Marianne McCann:	I do wish they'd get around to fixing the reversed icons on the play/pause up top
[13:19]	Derek Galaxy:	(in inventory)
[13:19]	Qie Niangao:	lol, yeah, even in the 2nd beta, that media pause/play control is... mystical
[13:19]	Hope McAlpine:	Im sorry guys
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	the one i prolly miss the most is Trash, Derek... Trash is definitely not the same as the older folders. neither is Lost & Found because you can DELETE stuff in both, gulp.
[13:20]	Chaley May:	i think LL needs to do a poll on that sidebar.. i think 90% hate it
[13:20]	Jeremy Linden:	Marianne, I've been coping with the play/pause button by envisioning it as a status icon rather than a button. I feel your pain, though.
[13:20]	Paul54 Roffo:	i wasnt sure i noticed it and got a bit frustrated with fing how to turn the music off then it mysteriously turned itself back on again
[13:20]	Hope McAlpine:	Chaley May I loves it !!!
[13:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Sidebar, good idea. Badly implemted.
[13:20]	Hope McAlpine:	I like the pul sidebar
[13:20]	Marianne McCann:	I don't hate it, but I think it misses some core functionality
[13:20]	Al Sonic:	Hah, I remember back when I had a firefox plugin that provided an icon for just about everything...
[13:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	I do Screen Capture, on occassion, but don't know quite how. I don't think it should show how many Lindens I have, thought
[13:20]	Chaley May:	you can be the 10% :)
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	Chaley, tough thing with polls tho, is opinions shift over time as people get used to stuff -- we've had login screen polls before, but yeah, gauging how people like it as things go on...
[13:20]	Hope McAlpine:	except it wontlet me drop notecard or texture into group notice
[13:20]	Marianne McCann:	Agreed, jeremy - but it goes opposite of decades of audio UI form.
[13:20]	Marianne McCann	has pinged you.
[13:21]	Hope McAlpine:	ok guys.. I gottarunnI pologize
[13:21]	Hope McAlpine:	thank you Arawn
[13:21]	Derek Galaxy:	maby a setting to optionally add back older elements of the viewer
[13:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was afraid Doc Hour would be canclede again
[13:21]	Torley Linden:	Mari, yeah, that is confusing when flipping back and forth between SL and iTunes or something.
[13:22]	Paul54 Roffo:	its it backwards compatible ?
[13:22]	Qie Niangao:	a serious question: all focus groups aside, will there be A/B testing of this new UI vs the old, in operation? I just think it's kind of an act of faith to just cutover to it for new users, and pray it isn't a complete mistake for them.
[13:22]	Chaley May:	its just lots slower.. cant access friends while your reading a profile.. close the profile to access friends and you lose it so have to search again
[13:22]	Torley Linden:	how might that A/B testing be done, Qie?
[13:23]	Marianne McCann:	Chaley - yes, I found it.. telling... to see Torley's "where is this now" list, and see that everything listed required *more* steps to get to
[13:23]	Derek Galaxy:	take a person who has never used the new one vs a person that has only used the new one and test sppeds of doing thingd
[13:23]	Qie Niangao:	well, hand half the new users the old UI, and half the new, and see who's left standing after a week.
[13:23]	Marianne McCann:	Well, to be fair. Either the same number of steps or more.
[13:23]	Torley Linden:	do keep in mind in some (not all) cases, where some stuff moved is more obscure because those features aren't very commonly used. i do agree that inventory transfers should be easier.
[13:23]	Torley Linden:	a lot of the stuff that's flat-out easier isn't on that Viewer 2 Moves page, tho... like landmark navigation.
[13:23]	Torley Linden:	getting to a place is far easier than the old "OMG WORLD MAP..."
[13:24]	Aargle Zymurgy:	Qie, I strongly suspect they have big numbers on new people retained who just use the existing client.
[13:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	I find I can't change altitude, on Map-TP
[13:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	End user customizable UI will end all the UI debates. Users will create better UI and the best gets the most shared theme.
[13:24]	Paul54 Roffo:	i like the new search routines i really do
[13:24]	Torley Linden:	Qie, i remember we A/B tested website reg flows and orientation experiences. with the Viewer it might be trickier because it's not as flexible when it comes to support...
[13:24]	Qie Niangao:	hmmm.
[13:24]	Paul54 Roffo:	listing each item with a link is so much more easier
[13:24]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, that points to the parallel interest in open-source viewers...
[13:25]	Derek Galaxy:	i like the omg world map lol
[13:25]	Marianne McCann:	one of the worst issues with the UI to me - aside from the comically small text chat window, the lack of map coordinates, and the play/pause button mixup, is the inability to open to profiles, or be able to drop inventory into a group notice without opening a second inventory window
[13:25]	Chaley May:	if a third party successfully removes that sidebar i will use that client
[13:25]	Derek Galaxy:	map coords! i miss those too
[13:25]	Torley Linden:	we're seeing many people say "i'm sticking with [INSERT 3rd-party viewer]"... that diversity will continue to flourish
[13:25]	Al Sonic:	Fun thing is, the new location bar can be used for TPing to new coordinates pretty quickly.
[13:25]	Marianne McCann:	An issue I had getting here today...
[13:26]	Torley Linden:	Mari, yeah, that second inventory window should NOT be necessary... something more like the texture picker to send inventory, maybe...
[13:26]	Marianne McCann:	If I type "Beaumont" in to the top bar, I'll end up mid sim
[13:26]	Marianne McCann:	I was in my workshop, with is at 500m
[13:26]	Chaley May:	RLV is going to hold onto a lot of people too
[13:26]	Jeremy Linden:	Hm. I actually used the world map to get here today. I typed "Beaumont" in there, then chose my landing point with the mouse.
[13:26]	Marianne McCann:	If I use the map, type beaumont, then select the doc, I have a teleport at 500m in the air over here
[13:26]	Jeremy Linden:	I also have this place in my Favorites bar.
[13:27]	Torley Linden:	i like "type in direct region name and teleport" but yeah, it takes you right to the middle... there should be a way to ALSO enter coordinates like Beaumont/30/168 -- that shortform doesn't work yet.
[13:27]	Marianne McCann:	On the plus side, this location does have a landing point set, so I made it where i needed.. but not all places do
[13:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	My own obersation. Amoung the general population, even mix of LL, emerad, and all other combined. Amoung werewolves, furries, dragons and other non-human avatars, over 90 percent emerald.
[13:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd been trying to get from Tayaila to Siden
[13:27]	Marianne McCann:	this issue could be resolved with some easy way to enter coordinates form the map panel.
[13:27]	Torley Linden:	there are some welcome, un-obvious changes, like when you set an object for sale, it automatically enables the "Buy object" click action. this should make it easier for people to buy stuff and f or content creators to sell without consciously thinking about click actions, that was a historical flaw.
[13:27]	Chaley May:	i would rather it just popup a minimap of that sim for us to click
[13:28]	Aargle Zymurgy:	I'm still a die-hard user of the standard client.
[13:28]	Paul54 Roffo:	I have to go take care everyone see ya later
[13:28]	Marianne McCann:	Torley - I love that it assigns the click action, which is so woefully underused
[13:28]	Jeremy Linden:	Thanks for coming, Paul!
[13:28]	Marianne McCann:	Have fun, Paul
[13:28]	Torley Linden:	part of the thinking why we've moved the World Map further "back" is because it has tended to overwhelm, someone sees "OMG SO MANY PLACES" and feels lost, despite green dots. but it's still discoverable from the Home tab...
[13:28]	Chaley May:	i think thebackwards and forwards buttons should show a minimap of each sim too
[13:28]	Derek Galaxy:	bye paul
[13:28]	Torley Linden:	take care Paul!
[13:29]	Chaley May:	because then you can find the sim you want then teleport instead of keeping teleporting till you find it
[13:29]	Torley Linden:	so yeah, in this Viewer 2 feedback we're getting, i really enjoy looking at *specifics* because otherwise, it's not really actionable to understand what's happening. on the forums i'm seeing Resis point out what's harder but not showing the other side of the story, too.
[13:29]	Jeremy Linden:	Chaley, does it help that there is a teleport history as the dropdown menu in the address bar?
[13:30]	Al Sonic:	Perhaps a bunch of those on Emerald are using the new attachment point viewing, heh... unfortunately Emerald no longer works for me that well.
[13:30]	Techwolf Lupindo:	brb. Got a call from a sim.
[13:30]	Chaley May:	yes but i think i would like a little map preview just thinking of good ways to make use of it
[13:31]	Chaley May:	the big world map has always been more for a lot of simple searches we use it for
[13:31]	Derek Galaxy:	the minimap needs ro be a bit smaller in 2.0 in my opinion
[13:31]	Torley Linden:	that teleport history keeps saving me trouble. i remember all the times where someone went, "i was at this cool place and wanted to share it with you but i don't remember and my chat logging is off."
[13:31]	Chaley May:	but a little map that show one sim would be great
[13:32]	Jeremy Linden:	The mini-map is resizable... can it not get small enough?
[13:32]	Al Sonic:	yeah, cool stuff.
[13:32]	Derek Galaxy:	lol, well my only thing about it is the bar at the top of it
[13:32]	Bronson Blackadder:	the teleport history is pretty cool yeah
[13:32]	Deborah Goldblatt:	it is yes
[13:32]	Deborah Goldblatt:	I like the tool
[13:33]	Torley Linden:	also remember you can change UI size in Preferences' Graphics tab if you feel the fonts are too big or UI chrome is too much in the way still... that can help on smaller resolutions...
[13:33]	Deborah Goldblatt:	the only thing was that I did crash permantly using it
[13:33]	Jeremy Linden:	Ah, noted Derek. People have had mixed feelings about that.
[13:33]	Chaley May:	allready had teleport history though in scripts
[13:33]	Derek Galaxy:	i actually do change the ui size when im on my smaller-screened laptop
[13:33]	Torley Linden:	Chaley, yes, but there's a great example of a feature so useful and basic it should be built in...
[13:33]	Torley Linden:	another one that comes up a lot, Viewer-side AOs... ;)
[13:34]	Marianne McCann:	heh, my only problem with it is that sometimes I'll fumble on the keyboard and end up sending me back for no good reason. But that's me.
[13:34]	Chaley May:	yeah they should be built in
[13:34]	Deborah Goldblatt:	hehehhe
[13:34]	Deborah Goldblatt:	I had that too
[13:34]	Chaley May:	although a viewer side AO would need to be built well....
[13:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I'll be glad when I can get scripts info. Had someone grifting a sim with scripts and no way to tell who was doing it.
[13:35]	Chaley May:	AOs can be interactive with some devicves and a client one wouldnt be
[13:35]	Torley Linden:	on one hand, the old Mini-Map without title saved some space. on the other, classic problem with that was it confused newcomers who wondered "What is this?" it looks very obvious in hindsight, true! one of those "once you know it's easy looking back..."
[13:35]	Eddi Decosta:	well sorry , i need to go ㋡
[13:35]	Bronson Blackadder:	hell I did some strange typo effect that it ended up rebboting my comp, and I have no idea what keys I hit to do that
[13:35]	Torley Linden:	bye Eddi!
[13:35]	Marianne McCann:	See ya Eddi!
[13:35]	Eddi Decosta:	see you next meeting ㋡
[13:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Viewer Side AO? All animations are viewer side, and MoaP presages the streaming of Gestures.
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	in other words, with a window without a title, it isn't obvious how it's linked to a menu or other command to open/close it.
[13:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Emerald now has client side AO.
[13:36]	Derek Galaxy:	there is a shortcut for that lol i've donr it too on my old 98
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	for clarity Arawn, I mean one built into the Appearance Editor or somesuch thing, instead of a separate, scripted gadget.
[13:36]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh good Im not the only one that did that then
[13:36]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Bit tricky to set up, but once done. Never have to worry about no-script again. And it works on all clients.
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	i helped market some of the first popular AOs so this is kinda full circle. :)
[13:37]	Derek Galaxy:	im shure theres more people that have too Bronson lol
[13:37]	Derek Galaxy:	*that have done it too
[13:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	typos are fun
[13:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	or annoying as hell
[13:37]	Torley Linden:	i do appreciate feedback when someone tells a story of why they like certain features so much and how they use them daily -- sometimes it's the stuff that's not so "glossy" but you need to use regularly that's the most important to you
[13:38]	Derek Galaxy:	whispers: something to dd to iewer , typo correction
[13:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think Streaming AO is about the idea that Linden Labs was first trying to develop, and SL was just a byproduct.
[13:38]	Al Sonic:	Haha, Derek.
[13:38]	Derek Galaxy:	the spel check in emerld is handy
[13:38]	Derek Galaxy:	if i would use it lol
[13:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	I find I still get Keyboard Lag, on SL2
[13:39]	Derek Galaxy:	(i hate this keyboard)
[13:39]	Chaley May:	theres a spellcheck?
[13:39]	Chaley May:	i didnt know
[13:39]	Derek Galaxy:	㋡
[13:39]	Derek Galaxy:	and a built in translator
[13:39]	Chaley May:	blad splelling
[13:39]	Torley Linden:	yeah you can use external spellcheck or typo correction as a workaround -- on Mac, Snow Leopard has it built in. i use TextExpander. on Windows there's PhraseExpress, AutoHotKey and others.
[13:40]	Torley Linden:	i haven't had to type out " Friendly greetings " in full in a long time. :)
[13:40]	Derek Galaxy:	ooh, i didnt know they made stuff like that
[13:40]	Torley Linden:	it's pretty handy and "universal" which means it works with almost all apps that accept standard text input, Derek
[13:41]	Derek Galaxy:	/me is going to look into these...
[13:41]	Al Sonic:	The one issue that sticks with me about SL2.0 is that the location bar is kinda big for some people, who would appreciate if, upon hiding that location bar, a location description showed up in the old place. Maybe when you're done testing reactions to the new bar this could be considered - poor eyesight users would appreciate (they have limited space).
[13:41]	Jeremy Linden:	I heart AutoHotkey. I use it to macro all kinds of things.
[13:41]	Jeremy Linden:	Like... our old Knowledge Base links from before we moved to the wiki.
[13:42]	Chaley May:	am i crashed?
[13:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Don't know, but you can shat
[13:42]	Jeremy Linden:	Nope!
[13:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	chat
[13:43]	Torley Linden:	shat?!?!!?!? lol
[13:43]	Chaley May:	i can what?
[13:43]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh jesus christ ... THERE the about land button is
[13:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Scat, shat chat
[13:43]	Jeremy Linden:	Out of curiosity, how many people here are currently running Emerald?
[13:43]	Derek Galaxy:	i love how theres the "force a crash" option in the advanced menyu of 2.0
[13:43]	Torley Linden:	Al, yes, some people want the Search bar bigger, or something else in there. Or the same can be said for the chat bar width, to make it resizable...
[13:43]	Deborah Goldblatt:	sorry I have to leave to rl , thank you and it is a great tool
[13:43]	Derek Galaxy:	*rases hand*
[13:43]	Chaley May:	i have emerald
[13:43]	Torley Linden:	the chat bar doesn't scale proportionally when enlarging the Viewer window and that makes me crazy in roleplay situations!
[13:44]	Chaley May:	but being on emerald we can count this too :)
[13:44]	Bronson Blackadder:	its funny that emerald isnt on the list of TPV
[13:44]	Chaley May:	there is only use 2 on emerald
[13:44]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Emerad 64-bit user here.
[13:44]	Chaley May:	Emerald 64-bit?
[13:44]	Bronson Blackadder:	dierctory
[13:44]	Bronson Blackadder:	directory
[13:44]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Yep. 64-bit build.
[13:45]	Al Sonic:	ah, yes, there's that whole category of issues... heh, well thanks for letting me how much that's all on your mind.
[13:45]	Jeremy Linden:	I was just commenting to Torley that our job as the documentation team is getting interesting; we don't support third party viewers ourselves, which led me to wonder about Second Life customer support in the future.
[13:45]	Chaley May:	is that new?
[13:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	gentoo.techwolf.net
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	/me nodnods
[13:45]	Bronson Blackadder:	well yeah I was wondering about that
[13:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Support will get real interesting, on Open GFrid
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	related, http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com/
[13:46]	Bronson Blackadder:	LL mentioned the power users can go to the TPVs
[13:46]	Bronson Blackadder:	but they dont support the people who will
[13:46]	Bronson Blackadder:	whats up with that?
[13:46]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Wikis are editable by user. You should allow help pages for Emerald and others with the usall disclamer.
[13:47]	Jeremy Linden:	Well, we (the Lindens) can't be responsible for learning and supporting every product made by every third party. We can really only intimately know our own stuff :-)
[13:47]	Torley Linden:	Bronson, like Jeremy mentioned, and we haven't said it exactly like that. but one thing to keep in mind is people willing to tinker/take risks are also more technically savvy.
[13:47]	Torley Linden	has pinged you.
[13:47]	Torley Linden:	so they can take care of themselves better.
[13:47]	Torley Linden:	e.g., power users are more apt to create their own support systems and documentation specific to their needs.
[13:48]	Bronson Blackadder:	I think that there should be some sorta support at least for those that made it to the self certified directory
[13:48]	Aargle Zymurgy:	hm.... did someone hire a dancer while I was gone? :-)
[13:48]	Marianne McCann:	There... in the other window I've gone ahead and added that Bay City page, under Category:Culture
[13:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Torley, and plase let those powerusers create the help wikis for those.
[13:48]	Torley Linden:	there's the old question of time and resources too, if we had to train staff on other viewers that could detract from expertise in the official Viewer -- there's also marketing and legal issues about brand name dilution... etc...
[13:48]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, they certainly can and have already been doing so! there are several out there already.
[13:49]	Jeremy Linden:	Well, I imagine we still provide support for any service-related issues, such as private regions, abuse issues, account issues, etc. However, in a lot of cases, we're not even allowed to log into third party viewers as Lindens. It's a security concern :-)
[13:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, to contact Customer Support, they should be using the Gamma Test Viewer, in a Linden Labs Sim
[13:50]	Bronson Blackadder:	cant be too hard.. I got the old standard, 2.0 , Snowglobe, Emerald, and several versions of Kirstens
[13:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Thank ${DEITY} that someone fixed the search on the wiki.
[13:50]	Torley Linden:	keep in mind even in our own Viewer, we don't explicitly support Advanced menu stuff, if it's there and you use it and it's beneficial, awesome. but we can't guarantee upkeep.
[13:50]	Bronson Blackadder:	the similarity amongst alot of them is great
[13:50]	Chaley May:	if a thrid party took 50% share of viewers used in SL would LL be concerned?
[13:50]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, what do you mean, specifically? :)
[13:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Now I can search "link" and get the page on linking prims.
[13:51]	Torley Linden:	we did add Google search and autocomplete to wiki.secondlife.com awhile back... that was a big win!
[13:51]	Jeremy Linden:	Hmm... But would you call Microsoft for support on Google Chrome? It's very similar to IE... :-)
[13:51]	Torley Linden:	or even closer, calling Apple for support with Chrome... since Safari and Chrome are both on WebKit (which Shared Media is based on, too)...
[13:52]	Chaley May:	i think its slightly different.. i mean the viewer gets us tot he lands that people rent and thats where LL make their money.. if they do it on another client they still make money so its a win win
[13:52]	Bronson Blackadder:	well it would just be alot easier if y'all just said you just dont wanna
[13:53]	Jeremy Linden:	Honestly Bronson, that sort of decision is above me or Torley. We're mostly just speculating here based on what we do know.
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	and we shant speculate :)
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	hehe
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	not necessarily, Chaley, because other viewers may also be used to access open grids not officially supported by LL... so we really need to look at specifics.
[13:53]	Derek Galaxy:	one of my freands lost an expensive peice of furnature a wile back and and they said ll wouldnt help them to get it back unless they used the ll wiewer on a computer without emerald, why is this? shouldnt it be ok if the person needing support just logs in the the other viewer even if the other is installed?
[13:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	At some point, you have to be refered to Microsoft, for the NOSMOKE software.
[13:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This question came up yesterday when I was chatting to others. Does LL still "muder" preminioum accounts by deleting there inventory for failure of payment?
[13:53]	Chaley May:	LL could probably be successful not even supporting its own viewer
[13:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	I understand DEbtorcide is no longer practiced by Jack Linden
[13:54]	Torley Linden:	holy crap "murder"?! that's a harsh, gangsta term! talk about anthropomorphizing an account!
[13:54]	Al Sonic:	Well, in a website vs. web-browser way, heh...
[13:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	My support is somewhat limited, by lack of a Graphics Card.
[13:54]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Derek, support tip. Log into the LL client and file a support ticket from withen the client. That will bypass the emerald bullshit responce from support.
[13:54]	Jeremy Linden:	Techwolf, I'm not sure. I heard some talk about it more than a year ago... It seems odd, since something similar won't happen to a Basic account.
[13:55]	Derek Galaxy:	aah ok lol
[13:55]	Bronson Blackadder:	good workaround Tech
[13:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	A friend tryie dot downgrade her account, after removing Payment Info, and couldn't, do to some irrelevant policy
[13:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	You can't upgrade, without payment info, but the software didn't consider the reverse.
[13:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think she was tortured for an improper U$20
[13:57]	Jeremy Linden:	Did she contact Billing Support to get it straightened out? That seems unfair to her.
[13:58]	Time Minder:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	yesterday, I meet two SL users that had that happend to them. One didn't return for 6 months and will never upgrade. The other did came back after while, but the third will never came back after getting there inventory delete with no recourse.
[13:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	oh thats because the old viewer was comlicated
[13:58]	Aargle Zymurgy:	Inventory loss is really tough for a lot of people.

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