User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2008-12-11

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for December 11, 2008. Inventory, filters, managing attachments; Refining and presenting UXIG ideas to Lindens, use of the wiki

Summary

Inventory should behave like file managers.

Add more summary here.

Transcript

[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. Why isn't there a "Disable this popup" button in Preferences > Popups
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	?
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	you have to add/remove it from the top bottom
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy aimee :)
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	hi :)
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Add/remove it from the top bottom?
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy charlette, geneko :)
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:03]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	What does that mean?
[15:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yikes.
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	like, err
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi all
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	select it and hit enable or disable
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	But what if it's in the "Show these popups" section and I don't want it to show? There's no "Disable this popup", only "Disable all these popups..."
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	err.... the way they have it laid out is way too confusing for me
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Usability FAIL.
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	what popups are you talking about/
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette: in Preferences > Popups
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Stuff in alerts.xml, probably.
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	OK I thought it may be it
[15:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's a bit weird that there's no button for that
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	We're trying to figure out how you can disable one popup, to move it from the bottom set to the top set
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, the popups layout always confuses me; which one is enable and disable again?
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	I've tried double clicking, right clicking, drag-and-drop, and those don't work. And there's no button. So I don't think there's a way to do it at all.
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	[15:05] McCabe Maxsted: wanna come hang out at the UI office hour? We have punch and pie [15:06] Periapse Linden: thx, mcCabe, but I'm actually busy in IM and then I need to go off world [15:06] Periapse Linden: Design us a great UI! [15:07] McCabe Maxsted: aw okay *salutes* will do!
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mmm punch and pie. Holding out on us again, McCabe?
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	who me? *rustles in his coat*
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, usually that sort of thing is done as a list with tickboxes, or side by side lists that you can drag between, with arrowed buttons in between to move things too
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	not sure I like that "conventional" approach either though :D
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Checkboxes would at least make sense
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	And be pretty easy to do, too.
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, I guess the idea is so you can see what's on and what's off as separate lists, but you could do that by sorting on the tick box
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah. Something I was meaning to do: count how many popups there actually are and see which would fit best
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	everyone understands checkboxes but if the space is tight multiple select dropbox could be used too
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	the droplist has the advantage of screen realestate
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	True
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	plenty of room for a scrollable tickbox list, like the friends list
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	38 of em
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	yes that would be nicer as well
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay. Today's topic is Inventory. I've got to go AFK and take care of something real quick, but first I'll pose a question: What are the most challenging / frustrating things about dealing with your inventory?
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Discuss.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick notices we all agree on stuff when there are no lindens watching :D
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Haha~
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted grins
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	3000 items, can't find what I'm looking for.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick:	duplicates duplicates duplicates
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	only 3000? :D
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey, I'm a newbie.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	I've mentioned these many times but tags, aliases and rating are some of my main points
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I've got I think 60K now, god forbid how many dupes
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy starsong :)
[15:14]	StarSong Bright:	hi all, sorry i am so late, lost track of the day heh
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe hey, me too, it's all good
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	just starting Star
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Games usually only have less than 200 items in inventory but then some games offer better inventory management functions.... than SL.
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's over there *points* :P
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	geneko: like what?
[15:14]	StarSong Bright:	well for me its midnight , i nearly came here yesterday lol thinking i wa late heh
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sorting, for example.
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	*blink* wow. I never realized that was missing until you just pointed it out
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wonder how hard it'd be to open/drag folders into new inv windows
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	what's missing?
[15:15]	StarSong Bright:	ahh inventory hehehe... i have a huge laundrylist
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	sorting
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	sorting kind of relates to showing more info in the list eg dates
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	just by name/date... taht's hardly much
[15:16]	StarSong Bright:	recently pared myself down to a mere 55k from i wont even admit how much
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	mm, can only do alpha or date
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Opening new inventory windows is not much either.
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, and date is not always right when filtered if I remember rightly
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Name or date... and no way to sort a-z or z-a.
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	I mean filesystem like preview with optional display of various things
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	List view or detailed view
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	....
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick:	coverflow style inventory preview :D
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	drwxrwxr-x?
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	eg tags on items (default and user assigned) eg furniture ??? rating of items (eg number) representing value (appeal)
[15:17]	StarSong Bright:	ther should be an icon for pop a new window, and it should be possible to pop a new window from a folder, like you can in a pc file system
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	precisely
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	most people don't even realise you can open more than one as it's hidden away in the inventory's file menu
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Back. *reads up*)
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	true
[15:18]	StarSong Bright:	i detest how the stupid inventory window reopens itself, popping everying open
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	and it is so practical to have two at onece
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Practical yeah right~
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	and it's a File menu, with not a single entry on it relating to files
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hahaha.
[15:19]	StarSong Bright:	and those darned tearable menus - growls
[15:19]	StarSong Bright:	i would like to see the filters worked into the top of the inventory window, rather than in a palatte, a drop open or something
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	on what is visible the window should keep the selected inventory item in view
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	nobody understands filters or know about them and filters dialog should have 2 subsections: All Items & Recent Items (All None buttons are superfluous)
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Starsong: Something like this? http://imprudenceviewer.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/inventory_quick_filter.png *grins*
[15:21]	StarSong Bright:	possibly but i am thinking a bit differnt
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's kinda redundant with the tabs down there...
[15:21]	StarSong Bright:	going back to somethign more mac like
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Different in what way, Star?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	I don't get the example pic difference
[15:22]	StarSong Bright:	where you do a search and you can choose "in this folder" or all folders, for example
[15:22]	StarSong Bright:	i may know i have soemthign in my objects folder, but it may not be an object, if i could say search here for this, i would find it easier
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[15:22]	StarSong Bright:	then to th eright is a plus symbol
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	that is where tags come into it - on items (default and user assigned) eg furniture
[15:23]	StarSong Bright:	if you click it then you choose type or create date or wahtever
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey, you came!
[15:23]	danya Clowes:	hi all
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi danya!
[15:23]	danya Clowes:	i new here
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	danya was standing on the 2nd floor of the building so I put a prim beside her to invite her here ^^
[15:24]	StarSong Bright:	well charlette i am big on folderizing... i have a folder for furniture and for various categories, if i could search by folder i would not need tags for most things
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy danya
[15:24]	danya Clowes:	hey whit
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	yes but that does not go very far and many things belong in a number of categories
[15:24]	StarSong Bright:	true
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	tags are more useful for searching for things in multiple categories
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	show me everything by designer X
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm too lazy to tag my stuff anyway.
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	show me all my boots
[15:25]	StarSong Bright:	but, as we are more likely to get search in folder than search by an extra database field, heh i am kinda focused
[15:25]	danya Clowes:	i love u all
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	if we had filesystem like view rating would be usefull too - rating of items (eg number) representing value (appeal)
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	tagging could be useful for discerning prim skirts from system
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'd probably use a simple starred system.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Now there's something that's sorely missing, hmm? Search by creator name. Heck, search by description.
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	true
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	OK Star but folders are very old hat and limited
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	search by modified date... received date... dimensions....
[15:26]	StarSong Bright:	yup
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	mm yeah
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	prim count... permissions...
[15:26]	StarSong Bright:	BUT, they are a paradyme people undersand
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	I have a mess from trying to make good folder categories
[15:26]	StarSong Bright:	lol sorry haivng severe troubles typing today
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	L$ paid for item... region name... duration...
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	the list goes on and on...
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, lots of things aren't available without rezzing though
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	and a worn tab
[15:27]	StarSong Bright:	yes a worn tab! absolutley
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	people understand iTunes list better than folders these days
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah.
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	or adding serious extra database load
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted nods at aimee. Sadly that includes prim count
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	preview of items on long hover and from context menu (eg like in edit appearance)
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	run the search query server side
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	for stuff that can be accessed without the asset's internals
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	when the inventory list gets downloaded now does it come just as the list of Names and UUIDs I would guess?
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	not dug into that part
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	`Then how does it list by date?
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	true, must at least get date too
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	It also gets the inventory type, asset type, and some various flags as well. Permissions too. I'm not sure what else.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	I'm sure multiple attridutes can be retreived and there should be more
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/FetchInventoryReply ?
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	aha there ya go
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	... It returns creater UUID, not their names. Aww.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks Geneko, good find
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's good enough for searching by creator
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	But I think there are more messeages on fetching inventory...
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	we have previously discussed inventory item aliases created when saving outfits or context menu (currently copies are made and non-copy objects are moved)
[15:32]	StarSong Bright:	i WISH i could find things *I* was the creator of
[15:32]	StarSong Bright:	for backing up
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	sale price, interesting. Filter by 'for sale'?
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	How is that useful...
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	that is tags again I think
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	not a clue, haha
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	mm, need to know which message is used when
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	are there any open source tools out there that do inventory backing up?
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	not OS that I know of
[15:35]	StarSong Bright:	there is something i have seen on slex, but it looks like a pita
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	some very simple things include new inventory folders for Second Life™ Help notecards in Library and Groups like (Calling cards)
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, it's not OS though
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	I could have sworn someone posted another tool or two on sldev... can't seem to find it
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	oh right, hmm
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	... so anything else on inventory?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	folders should have function labels which are context sensitive eg gestures display: "Add to Outfit/Take Off Items"
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	I just got an epiphany on an inventory-related problem I was pondering. Trying to stash it away in my head for later
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	some folder operations just don't make sense
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	wearing clothes could definitely be improved... for example live local preview when clicking on an item
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh yeah?
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	preview items on long hover and from context menu (eg like in edit appearance), even preview gestures from context menu
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	yep i talked about that many times before
[15:39]	StarSong Bright:	and there hsould be limits whe you chose add to outift
[15:40]	StarSong Bright:	i once wore my entire dress folder
[15:40]	StarSong Bright:	it took 5 minutes for me to quit flickering lmao
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Live preview would be interesting. I wonder if it's feasible to do that for clothing.
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	the appearance dialog does it so there must be a way without wearing the item
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	yikes, haha
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Umm, objects and prim avatars aren't the same.
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	also doubleclick to wear the attachment just like clothes (cool viewer)
[15:40]	StarSong Bright:	i never, EVER use appearance mode to change clothes, what a waste of time
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	Star you are wrong
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, double-click actions is a patch I can never live without
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	I adjust lengths of pants etc all the time
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	I mean prim objects and mesh clothes...
[15:41]	StarSong Bright:	seriously from day one i have hated appearance mode
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted nods. That's one of myf avorites too
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	not seeing prim attachments in appearance is annoying
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	prim clothes are a prob for the preview I realise but it may not be such a big thing
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's why someone proposed an "attachment" tab in Appearances...
[15:42]	StarSong Bright:	it is soo @#$@#$ frustrating to try to help a noob with his hair, and he keeps going to appearance mode. i get SOOOOO frustrated
[15:42]	StarSong Bright:	yes, i agree geneko
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	god, yes
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	But... yeah... mesh clothes, prims, both are assets in the end.
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	How would the attachment tab be like?
[15:43]	StarSong Bright:	but of course he is TRYING to do what he learned on intake island but grrrr
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	should definitely be a GUI based attachment manager in some form
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	the noobs should not have the old hair any more
[15:43]	StarSong Bright:	absolutely!
[15:43]	StarSong Bright:	i envision an edit mode with TWO attachment tabs, one for huds and one for body attaches
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	I wouldn't have much idea, except it would show my avatar (with all attachments in the center to avoid furries seeing human mesh) and having attach points around it.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	also inventory window should be modal and come to the foregreound when receiving focus
[15:44]	StarSong Bright:	first showing you whats attached where, and giving you the option to add or subtract
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Would you use it for putting on and taking off? Or for ajusting the position?
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's also this idea: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8067
[15:44]	StarSong Bright:	even the simplest adjsutment contorls would be awesome, even if it was just little arrows to move up and down left to right - SOMETHING.. and also possible to increase size in even incriments
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	cute
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	I think edit is quite efficient since it has all the other controls as well as the basic position
[15:45]	StarSong Bright:	and a way to select a worn atachment and move it out of your body, it is impossible to help a noob to fish something out of their chest. yeah i knwok the tricks but its still pulling teeth
[15:46]	StarSong Bright:	there is no UNDO worth talking about
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Trying to position attachment inside your body is pain too.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, good point
[15:46]	StarSong Bright:	if it was in appearnace mode you could save state and have a "revert - i give up" button
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	yes multistep UNDO is a must in Second Life™
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, I like the "I Give Up!" button :D
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted grins
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or "Argh, this $#^@ing piec of @#$%!" button. When you click it, it plays some nice relaxing music for you.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Speaking about wearing, newbies tend to have a box on their hands... (used to be a box on their head, but fixed long before my rezday).
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	think of action history in PhotoShop
[15:47]	StarSong Bright:	and same for huds, i hat ehaving to do 10 sorts of attachments to find a hud that is out of screen, when all that needs to happen is for me to have a button that says - move it to the cetner of my screen so i can adjst it again
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	And guides you through some slow breathing exercises. *nods*
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Such a "reset" button would be very userful.
[15:48]	Garn Conover:	the PN's are @ it again
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy garn
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	PN?
[15:48]	StarSong Bright:	how many noobs do you know who didnt know how to copy their hair and ruined it tyring to get it to fit?
[15:48]	Pier Jaecies:	should i feel scared?
[15:48]	Garn Conover:	grifer group Geneko
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	hah, I did that myself with the first hair I bought
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Are you sure Garn isn't one of them? He has a ARC of...
[15:49]	Garn Conover:	i should be over 8k
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	yes editing/building experience helps getting dressed
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Under nine thousand unforrunately. XD
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	I just love prim whores
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	he gets triple the ARC quota as he has 3 heads
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Garn
[15:50]	Garn Conover:	heya hun
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm... upon wearing, what if we created a temporary object (assuming it's copy) then let people mess around with the temp, then had an option to save back to inventory as either overwriting or in a new folder
[15:50]	Garn Conover:	Amiee each head is 1k
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	:D
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	That doesn't count, I tease all people who torture my poor comptuer with their avatar :d
[15:50]	Garn Conover:	wings are another
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy malbers
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	M, Malbers?!
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Malbers
[15:50]	Garn Conover is known for crashing systems
[15:50]	StarSong Bright:	hiya malbers
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	Malbers :)
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	howdy everyone
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Okay, this is the time we start to have disagreement XD
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	thought i'd drop in for a second; say hi
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	temporary copy in a way is the rezzed object and backup in the inventory for many things
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good idea about being able to adjust the HUD position more easily, StarSong
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	I shall call you squishy, and you shall be mine, and you shall be my squishy!
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	guess we can start now :D
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	and reset
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe :)
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, Aimeee! We've been waiting the whole hour for Malbers to show up, and now he's here. Does anyone remember the topic? xD
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	j/k
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh
[15:52]	StarSong Bright:	inventory demands!
[15:52]	Malbers Linden:	yes, I know. Nothing every happens in SL without me
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Inventory daemons?
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted scratches head. Something to do with poseballs and chipmunks right?
[15:52]	Garn Conover:	lmao
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	malbers does not use inventory to get dressed he is naked
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's - next week's topic. Probably.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tsk. Let's get back on topic, hehe.
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	right
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	inventory woes and the pain of dressing!
[15:53]	Garn Conover tickles McCabe
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	what about aliases instead of copies and moving non-copy items
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	that is for outfits
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, an Attachments window / tab in Appearance, to help with positioning attachments and HUDs, and for taking them on and off.
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	with the ability to cycle through attachments, each being selected inworld
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nod* And undo. Lots of undo.
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe yesss
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also possibly shows when "an attachment is pending for the spot"?
[15:55]	StarSong Bright:	undo in linksets is busted, has anybody else noticed it?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth never builds.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmm, what's it doing, Star?
[15:55]	StarSong Bright:	ahh well i do, and its irritating as heck
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean where the whole prim moves when you just edited one linked object?
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	err whole linked set
[15:55]	StarSong Bright:	well, say i have a linkeset of 10 things, and i mvoe three, when i try to undo, sometimes only 1 goes back
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	undo is pretty broken just about everywhere :S
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh dear.
[15:56]	StarSong Bright:	or the whole object tries to mvoe around, i havent found a reliable recreate
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's what you get for putting undo on the server; put it in the client instead.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth has no idea how Undo works. ^^
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	has to relate to server though
[15:56]	StarSong Bright:	nods, its off topic
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6226 wonder if malbers could look up DEV-15002 ;)
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	in case you're working with someone else
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	yup, off topic
[15:57]	StarSong Bright:	yep that looks like the bug in question heh
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	Star loves to throw oddball things in the mix
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	JIRA it Star
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe. Anyway. Back to the topic
[15:57]	StarSong Bright:	its there that was it
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anything else in inventory? We've covered the usuals... tags, filters, sorting, preview. Others I can't remember...
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm, the missiing ability to create new folders
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Missing ability?
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, create a new inventory window from just a folder
[15:59]	StarSong Bright:	i want a landmarks tab
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[15:59]	StarSong Bright:	and a worn tab
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	action history for multiple operations could be kind of implemented like (Worn) attribute on items in inv
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	that is multiple undo
[15:59]	StarSong Bright:	it annoys me that my navigational elements are mixed in with teh rest of it
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, new windows, and new tabs. Custom tabs would be great, especially as the filtering system improves.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	can we remember "recently worn"?
[16:00]	StarSong Bright:	yes please!
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	like worn, worn-1, worn-2
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmmm, off topic again, but an undo floater would be nice, similar to in Photoplop or whatever
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	simple but could work
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	showing the current undo stack
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think so, McCabe. Make a little record somewhere when you attach or wear something
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	(amen aimee)
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	worn is in inv now so not off topic really
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or detach
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	if it could remember folders for replace outfit, that'd be even better
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	and more attributes could be displayed in inv
[16:01]	StarSong Bright:	yes, thats how we got into appearance mode int eh first place
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	I meant I was off topic myself :)
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm, and how about favorite items / outfits?
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Something taken from Vista: When dragging stuff, display a short message about what will be done (like "Rez in world" or "Move to Clothes").
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ooh, good idea Geneko
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's basically the idea of "starring" items.
[16:01]	StarSong Bright:	and could we move the stupid delete item from the spot DIRECTLY ABOVE WEAR?!
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	favourite = rating like I said before
[16:02]	StarSong Bright:	(in the right click menu from inventory i mean)
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, starring or rating
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	0-5 stars, like iTunes
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes but rating gives too much choice, while sometimes a simple on-off can work.
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	... by the way, how do you rate something 0 stars?
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	simpler just a numeral eg 1 to 5
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	I still want Apple Coverflow style inventory preview :D
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	folders should have function labels which are context sensitive for example now gestures display: "Add to Outfit/Take Off Items"
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	In Rhythmbox (the music player I use) if you click on the 1 star while it's already at 1 star, it changes to 0 stars. Dunno how iTunes does it
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted has never really used ratings. Do you guys just use them to sort what you like/don't like or is there some advanced system you have?
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	you have to click it backwards
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	I never noticed Rhythmbox has rating...
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	yes but clothes and avies are more relative to rating than music etc
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, in theory you use ratings to e.g. create a dynamic playlist with all your favorite songs
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Awsomebar?
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	some are good some are poor
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like, how long do you wear something.
[16:05]	Malbers Linden:	i know i just got here but i gotta run -- look forward to the ideas you had for Inventory
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Malbers, thanks for dropping by
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	see ya later malbers :)
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	or custom tags
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	now that's interesting, track time wearing items
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sort by frecency and stuff?
[16:05]	StarSong Bright:	you know, guys, if we had to focus, i woudl say lose the tags and things that are going to get the big ol thumbs down for adding to the database, and find ways to make the CURRENT inventory more pc/mac explorer style
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	(quick, everyone talk about him now)
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Seeya~
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	so you can see what you wear the momst
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	*most
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh yes, definitely!
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	hehe he has tenticles in his inventory I think
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	in the same way iTunes allows you to see which things you play the most
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli would have embarrassing numbers like "Worn this outfit for 6 months" ... >_>
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nothing wrong with that.
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	though that would be use count, rather than time
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, me too
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	same here, I only have 3-4
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think it would probably be time spent online.
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	could maybe indicate it with a growing number of smelly sock icons
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	the "Laundry" folder
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	an angry mother appears in the corner of your screen....
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nyahaha~ Come to think of it I've never seen a waching machine in SL.
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	SL needs a fashion sense detector built in, too.
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	A better color chooser?
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	yes a style meter
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	my Mac's Dashboard has a pile of trash that grows with the Trash folder
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	hah!
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	I can see the abuse reports now... fashion police
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli snickers
[16:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	I'd be posting lots myself
[16:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	the fashion police blotter
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would probably be AR'd soon under that system.
[16:08]	StarSong Bright:	there are some things we could do that come before the entry to inventory that would do a lot to help... such as prompting where to save and name
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	I do 500 ARs per year as it is
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good idea, Star
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	hell, I'd be ARing myself half the time
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted nods at Star
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	I've been pondering whether it's possible for the client to intercept incoming items and move them to an Inbox folder
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or ask you for a folder to save to
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted likes the inbox idea
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick nods, useful
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	yes that sounds like it would save opening the recen all the time
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	the recent should be filtered like I said before
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	I suppose it must be possible, since the client is able to pop up a dialog asking you whether to accept or not. It's obviously being informed when you receive a new item
[16:10]	StarSong Bright:	the search needs improving, look at google, when you do a search you see at the top of the search resulst what is being filtered by. our inventory shoudl do that
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	eg set if it show a day or a session
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	mind you, I would then just end up with everything in my inbox, but would only be me to blame then :)
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Could you elaborate on that, Star?
[16:11]	StarSong Bright:	it sorta does, but i think its way too easy for people to have somethign in the search box or have a filter clicked and have closed the windwo, and not knwo they are not seeing everyting.. thus concluding they have inventory loss
[16:11]	Charlette Proto:	the rating could be used
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, display a message somewhere in the window, "Searching for: _____" ?
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	So they know there's a search / filter active?
[16:12]	StarSong Bright:	yes
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's what the title says
[16:12]	StarSong Bright:	filtered by_____
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	but it's waaaay to big to ever fit
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	filters should be visible all the time to make them practical and used by peeps
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	tickboxes at the top
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	yes thus i was thinking they should be a dropdown in the top of that window
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	no one ever reads title bars :)
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	thing is thats a long list now
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	i want SAVED SEARCHES
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	it'd be simple to keep the "searching" text open and OMGYESS
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	we are back to a filesystem like view I think
[16:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	I want an SQL inventory search console :D
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	*-*`````aaHahahahahahahHaaa`````*-*
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	me too
[16:14]	StarSong Bright:	i know others think its dated but we have it, and it could be better, without massive chagnes on the back end
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, I was thinking about that. Like how Lighthouse (the issue tracker we use for Imprudence) allows you to save searches to a little icon on the sidebar. You could save a search/filter setting into a new tab along the top, or something
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted would will trade any limb--your pick--for saved searches
[16:15]	Garn Conover:	i could go for a nice... juicy... ear
[16:15]	StarSong Bright:	so we are unamious then a saved searches tab up next to recent items?
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	not sure if i would give one of my pretty legs
[16:15]	Garn Conover poofs
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	s'okay, I can't type
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	I'm never unanimous about anything, even when I'm on my own
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:16]	StarSong Bright:	brb
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	kk
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	My epiphany earlier was that instead of having a long list of checkboxes in the filters window, have a list of filters that you can add or remove. For example, add a new filter item, then choose from a drop-down list "Item type is..." and then another drop-down, "Skin"
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or "Item name includes...", "Item's permissions are...", etc.
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	You could keep adding more of them to refine your filter
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think this is what StarSong was talking about, with the Mac filtering and the plus button
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	but types don't help with many things (clothes, furnies etc)
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	need user and default tags
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, interesting idea
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	certainly a great way to clean up all the optinos
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's just one example of a filter you could choose, Charlette. There could be another filter for "Item has tag..."
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	And also the opposites. "Item does NOT have tag", "Item type is NOT Skin", etc.
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	I'd like to see searches like show: clothes, rated 3+, name contains "black"
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	So you could combine them to construct a filter that means "Items tagged 'sexy', which have the word 'shiny' in the name, but which are not skins,"
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	precisely
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	And then when you have a good filter, you could save it as a pre-set
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Also, another filter type: "Item is in this folder (or sub-folder)"
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	current filters are hadly worth using as is
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, would you save searches the same as filters?
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Searches would be another filter type, "Item has this in the name"
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	you could do Mac style smart folders that way :D
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	that is wher folder views could come in, search a given window eg clothes
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Exactly, Aimee
[16:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	(if someone already said it I missed it, not paying attention in class :S)
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Of course, we could have convenient ways of making filters. For example, right click on a folder and say "Show only this folder", would add a new filter to your current set. Or type in the search box would add a name filter.
[16:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmmmmmm, you could also do Mac Mail style filter rules on incoming inventory
[16:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	like any mail that arrives starting with [sldev] goes in my sldev mail folder
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli nods
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	that sounds like you have to be ready to receive things you don't know yet
[16:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	so look at the creator as it arrives and file it in the right place
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	"Any item coming from my friends goes into super happy nice folder"
[16:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	"Items coming from random strangers go into trash" >:D
[16:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	"spam folder"
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	I never accept from strangers
[16:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[16:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	didn't your mother ever tell you? never accept freebies from strangers
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm excited. This is a powerful concept.
[16:26]	McCabe Maxsted agrees
[16:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	sometimes get people dropping notecards about stuff on me
[16:26]	StarSong Bright:	heh, friends can give you crabs just as easy as strangers lol
[16:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	it can handle a lot of the ideas we've already bandied about
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	incoming filters are too hard, the choice from 'received' dialog is much simpler
[16:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	"look up in customer list .... file in /dev/null"
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	Star you will not get crabs from me hon
[16:27]	StarSong Bright:	and they would be dangerous anyways, your outfit for example could get broken out in differnt folders, in a way you might not have anticipated
[16:27]	StarSong Bright:	i had a friend pass me a linden stealer once by accident
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	It doesn't have to be one or the other, Charlette. You could have both incoming filters, and/or the received dialog.
[16:27]	StarSong Bright:	it can happen
[16:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	if you file based on who it's coming from, should all go to the same place
[16:27]	StarSong Bright:	just like computer viruses... you cant trust anyone really
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	the receive/accept dialog can be readily expanded to make the decision and maybe make it default
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, single item only transfers might be beneficial in this case, if we make it incoming only and boxed items exempt (or perhaps only folders follow the rules?)
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	but hwo does an item know its boxed
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	?
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	sorry, I meant copying to inv from a box
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	oic
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	my inbox would be huge i bet
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, stuff that you Buy Contents, etc. should probably not be filtered?
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	so no breaking up outfits
[16:29]	Aimee Trescothick wonders if she's the only person OCD enough to delete the word "- boxed" off the end of all her inventory folders
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	like objects folder is
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	hehe i am right ther with you aimee
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	i am real stickler for my inventory
[16:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	that drives me mad, "It's not bloody boxed any more!"
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	huge as it is i cant afford not to be
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	mine is a mess
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	(it would be nice if we had an advanced option to reload our invs btw.... I hate when mine gets stuck halfway loading)
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	clear the cache
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	not a very user friendly fix
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	true, but that is what it involves
[16:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	you can sometimes kick start it by using a filter or looking at recent, but not reliable
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah... like if I search for different names one or two hundred extra items pop up, then it stalls again
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	could bean option in the inventory menu
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I noticed in the code that it only starts a fetch if you search, use a filter, or change tabs.
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	you need to clear the cach McCabe
[16:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	File(Ugh)->Refetch or something
[16:32]	StarSong Bright:	nods in agreeemnt
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe. What's up with "File" menus?
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	I search all the time but a clear cache is what gets missing items restored
[16:33]	Aimee Trescothick growls
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	force of habit
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Such a weird convention.
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Like, for Open and Save and such, it makes sense. But then people cram everything in there.
[16:33]	StarSong Bright:	agreed
[16:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[16:34]	StarSong Bright:	you know thats one thats really bugging me, i gave you guys my buckets last week i think, well at least mccabe ..... i dont like the file menu in the main or inventory window
[16:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	Inventory window ... "File->Export"
[16:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	that would make snse
[16:34]	StarSong Bright:	but its so deeply embeded...
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[16:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	Save Texture As, from the main File menu would even make sense in there
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, Second Life rarely does deal with files.
[16:35]	StarSong Bright:	but, i tried the latest version of ofice with its ribbons and i loathed it. lol... its made me rethink my whole stragegy
[16:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	well, if you didn't have to open it first, anyway
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think Ribbons is a neat idea, is that only me?
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, did you hand stuff out last time, Star? I got a transcript of it (haven't had time to look at it :X). I heard you had some interesting ideas.
[16:35]	StarSong Bright:	i do but i found that acutally using them in office was mkaing me bonkers
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh. I've got a bit of that too.
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	I never use Office anyway.
[16:36]	StarSong Bright:	the way my new interface design will proably piss off those who know and love the current shceme heh
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wonder how people would feel if "save texture as" were in the texture preview window.... I'm guessing a lot of "you're enabling thieves!" talk
[16:36]	StarSong Bright:	oh i didnt ahve a transcript my log was all full of a realy busy groups chatter, totally unusable\
[16:37]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL MM
[16:37]	StarSong Bright:	i created a list of "buckets" by functionality
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	you don't mean to say the visual (square buttons) was an intention of yours in terms of appearance
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	I got the transcript, no worries there. :) I just haven't looked at it yet :(
[16:37]	StarSong Bright:	tyring to boil down sl activities into 8 or so categories
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hah McCabe. Yeah, even though it's already there... if we made it easier to use, we're promoting content theft ;)
[16:38]	Charlette Proto:	good idea since the menus are all over the place but don't expect to solve the whole UI yourself star
[16:38]	StarSong Bright:	oh i know
[16:38]	StarSong Bright:	smiles
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, leave some for the rest of us to solve :D
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	So anyone have a nice log for today?
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:39]	Charlette Proto:	there are functionalities which are all wrong besides the bucket reordering
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	i started with teh buckets document ( hands up if you would like to see it) where i tried to figure out what things go together, in preparation for ribbons or menus or well, someting.. better
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'd love to see any UI stuff you've been thinking about!
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	yes heh i am afraid i have some "wishful additions" in there indicated with a *
[16:40]	StarSong Bright:	well most of it is still in my head atm
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko, I'll put the transcript up after we're done. Did you want one now?
[16:40]	Charlette Proto:	I have the last week's lists and hope to do the same myself
[16:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nah. I'd rather have some sandwich.
[16:40]	StarSong Bright:	but i am fighting with myself over how things need to be organzied, thats a show stopper for me atm
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli hands Geneko a transcript sandwich
[16:41]	StarSong Bright:	grins
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	You know what the cure for fighting with yourself is? Showing Jacek your ideas xD
[16:41]	StarSong Bright:	smiles
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[16:41]	StarSong Bright:	well i started in on the prefernces, but thats not where i want to end up
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, then you get to fight with Jacek for free :D
[16:42]	StarSong Bright:	part of the fight is the menu vs toolbar/ribbon approach
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	I've noticed you work very independently Star and sometimes write and don't read even though you just started comming here a few weeks ago
[16:42]	StarSong Bright:	what do you mean charlette?
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	makes it look like you are on your own
[16:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tsk, be nice, Charlette
[16:43]	StarSong Bright:	ahh well, in my head i am, but i am tyring to get it out there.. part of my problem atm is just figuring out how to sprew the ideas out to be looked out without a bunch of mental vomit landing on yoru shoes, giggles
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	little discission, mostly a new contribution or idea irrespective of what others say
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted nods. It's really a lot to digest once you get digging into it, and then trying to prioritize! damn
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been thinking it'd be really nice to have an "info gathering" client, one that sent us anonymous info on mouseclicks/hovering/actions etc
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	see if we can sucker (gather) some testees
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh yea, I had this idea today too!
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	And have it opt-in or something and build into Inpruderence/ Meerca or stuff...
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	we are ending up with another JIRA mess when we don't follow ideas through and instead throw new things every time
[16:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Interesting idea
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Probably at install time?
[16:46]	StarSong Bright:	i think what you hear, isnt so much me not listening or reading into others suggestions, so much as my internal dialog about prioritizing.. i have been really having to grab my own reins wiht my redesing ideas to stay on the "here and now and might acutally be possible in a reasonable amount of time"
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Bleh. I have no programming capability or sense of priorities :3
[16:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	heck LL's stats gathering isn't opt-out, let alone opt-in LOL
[16:47]	StarSong Bright:	thus while i think tags are a good idea, for example, refiting a more file explorer solution to the current inventory interests me more
[16:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, true. There's some debugging portions that I've glanced over that could possibly be refitted for info gathering. I imagine just making it anonymous would be a far bigger taslk than I could imagine, though
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. I guess you could categorize ideas by "usefulness", "effort involved", and "technical feasibility". Then find some sort of ratio
[16:48]	StarSong Bright:	i have been a developer for a long time (web not software) but i have learned over the years that what you can do fast will always beat out what you can do well in a year o rtwo
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe we should do that for the wishlist, McCabe?
[16:49]	Charlette Proto:	also threads since the contributions are so mixed up
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	you know, why not. I'll throw it in
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Quick fixes can be good. Especially if you make a quick fix that moves in the direction of a more robust system
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted nods at Star. Those are always the types of changes that interest me, personally. I'm nitpickerish?
[16:50]	StarSong Bright:	sometimes the low hanging fruit will get you furhter than you expected
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	I'm concerned since i've heard some great ideas here but we often jump oall over the place instead of getting everyones reactions to the issues raised
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	but what is the direction?
[16:51]	StarSong Bright:	that is one reason i suggested last time that for the linden meetings when they are here, we work ONLY iwth things in jira already
[16:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, if someone can mentor me on hacking the viewer... ^_^
[16:51]	StarSong Bright:	ie and add them beforehand if necessary
[16:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	I can walk you through compiling if you're on windows, geneko
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	so that we could then "talk turkey" with the lindens, as to feasibility, desireability, and their own feelings on certain things
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, what would we do with the JIRAs? Just harass the lindens about them?
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	well, a few things
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	for low hanginging fruit, like the things you mentioned last week where a fix was turned aside
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	if it was small and simple, why?
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	it would be most useful to know WHy things are or arent moved on
[16:53]	Jacek Antonelli mutters some nasty-sounding words under her breath
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh
[16:53]	StarSong Bright:	if there is some concern that stops somethin really important from getting more worked on
[16:53]	StarSong Bright:	for exampel, the thing of better windowing for the inventroy explorer
[16:53]	StarSong Bright:	have they even considered it before?
[16:54]	StarSong Bright:	was there some huge mountainous roadblock
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	my feelin is that we should crystalise the overall vision (direction) from the issues raised here and JIRA
[16:54]	StarSong Bright:	if so, what was it, and is it something jacek can work magic to get us around, smiles
[16:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's a two year old wiki page for "soon to be upcoming inventory improvements"
[16:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	just to give you some idea of their history on this
[16:54]	Aimee Trescothick still wants a draggable split pane inventory
[16:54]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, as Malbers said last time -- they do things that are "business critical". And other stuff tends to get swept aside.
[16:55]	StarSong Bright:	so it would be helpful to know what they consider mission critical, and what is runner up
[16:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	everything's focussed on stability and economy right now
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	but isn't a vision a business thing to have
[16:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm; he did also mention that user experience was finally becoming a critical area though
[16:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	and first hour
[16:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's no use though, when what's "business crirical" changes faster than the wind direction in-world!
[16:55]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	anything else doesn't get a look in
[16:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	though, the Featurettes initiative is an attempt to address the really small stuff that gets starved for attention
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	I still think we don't really know where we are going (objectives)
[16:56]	StarSong Bright:	simple fact of the matter, if we cant guage what they think is important, or bring them reasonable arguements why they are wrong, nothing will ever change
[16:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah
[16:56]	Geneko Nemeth signs "I~love~fea~ture~ettes"
[16:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	so, should we use these meetings to gang up on them? ABSOLUTELY!
[16:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds good to me ;)
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	on point, on message
[16:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although we need to do it in a more organized fashion. -_-
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	find the soft fleshy tenticle and squeeze it a bit, lol
[16:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hahaha... but we need to get a concensus on what we want to gang up for.
[16:57]	McCabe Maxsted thinks we need some solid wiki pages
[16:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	basically nothings going t happen unles they get presented with working code ... and then it still might not
[16:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh
[16:57]	Charlette Proto:	first we need to agree on some priority issues before we can gang up
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	see if we cant get malbers to squeek for us
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	yes exactly
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	which is why i suggested the jiras
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	and why i think concentrating on the "low hanging fruit" is a good idea
[16:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	they're pretty scattered; first we should create and be concise about our ideas, then create JIRA topics for them
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	lots of tiny nickle and dime changes can really add up quickly
[16:59]	Charlette Proto:	a digest of the JIRA and our meetings through the year would be a start perhaps
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also the mailing list!
[16:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. What if we used (part of) the meeting before the Lindens come to organize the ideas we're going to present to them?
[16:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not enough time.
[17:00]	Charlette Proto:	good move as a start
[17:00]	StarSong Bright:	i am not as intouch with the innards as you Jacek and McCabe, but perhaps if you could begin by looking at the things that are so simple to do - that woul ahve an impact we could begin there?
[17:00]	StarSong Bright:	yes good ideas Jacek!
[17:00]	Charlette Proto:	we have covered so much ground as it is and a roadmap could be inferred from that
[17:01]	StarSong Bright:	even if we began with some of the older "meta" jiras... like the one McCabe mentioned earlier with the two year old coming soon... note
[17:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	How do you guys see the mailing list as fitting in with this?
[17:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's not getting much use these days
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	set direction before we try to prioritise things we have talked about before
[17:02]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	It does need more exercise
[17:02]	McCabe Maxsted nods. It's been waiting for some steering for a while
[17:02]	StarSong Bright:	there is jsut so much stuff, i mean look how we are chasing our tails, msut be many times worse in teh lab lol
[17:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	at least there it's easier to keep stuff organised into threads for ongoing discussion
[17:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Back when the Lindens were announcing their cut-back on meetings, the mailing list was mentioned as a way to get in touch with the Lindens
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	I think a Wiki would be the best thing
[17:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would also be useful for including people who can't attend due to time zone / being at work / etc.
[17:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	it makes it easier for them to monitor popular topics asynchronously
[17:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	I have to agree on using the wiki heavily; the AWG has done that with great success
[17:03]	StarSong Bright:	awg>?
[17:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	architectural workign group... the people working on the agent domain and intergrid movement
[17:04]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, how might we use the wiki better?
[17:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Make pages for presenting and refining ideas?
[17:05]	StarSong Bright:	well, let me ask you this... for each of you, what would you like the focus of this group to be, specifically?
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	yes I'm thinking of bringing some stuff discussed before to the surface
[17:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Also, would someone be willing to write up summaries of the meetings? Transcripts aren't good for getting a quick look at the ideas presented.
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	like I said a digest of issues
[17:06]	Jacek Antonelli nods to Charlette. Yes.
[17:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	idea presentation, prioritizing, organizing ideas and mockups of possible improvements that we could either do ourselves or, more particularly, would involve large or server-side changes that one coder working alone prolly couldn't knock out easily in their spare time
[17:08]	Charlette Proto:	the chat captures some great ideas but i read some of the past transcripts and having been here sometimes it is still hard to see the threads
[17:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Agreed, Charlette
[17:08]	StarSong Bright:	i tend to be a bit unfocused i am afraid, apologies, but this is like 2am for me right now heheh....
[17:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes! My translation got into the official 1.22.3 viewer!
[17:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	I can handle the transcript-taking, but I'm a bit too busy to write up summaries, unless I really have to.
[17:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	nice, gen
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	eg everyone has their pet subjects and we could do our best to find related issues from the whole body of info
[17:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Woot, Geneko \o/
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	hehe it is midday and i haven't slept
[17:10]	McCabe Maxsted is fine with simply talking about the ui and improving it where I can... but I love bandying about ideas most; even if they're failed ones good ones spring off them
[17:10]	StarSong Bright:	agreed
[17:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	The summary doesn't necessarily have to be written right away (although it might be easiest to do that). They could be added to the transcript page later
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	I agree but some of it gets jumbled up
[17:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh: benjamin, if you're reading this, thank you
[17:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh, what?
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	Benj is so absent and so in a hurry
[17:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh "I just sent a message into the future" heh
[17:11]	StarSong Bright:	laughs
[17:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hah, okay. Just curious what you're future-thanking him for. :D
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	what if we all created wiki pages on our pet subjects
[17:12]	StarSong Bright adds, hey ben, get some more comfie furniure!
[17:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	approving all our ideas of course ;)
[17:12]	StarSong Bright:	smiles
[17:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	That sounds like an idea, Charlette
[17:12]	StarSong Bright:	can we do that?
[17:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	sure
[17:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Like how Morgaine and Geneko (I think it was) made that wiki page about the client-side scripting and HUD stuff
[17:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	wiki's created mostly by residents for residents; we can fuck around with it as much as we want
[17:13]	StarSong Bright:	hmm where would we want to make thee pages?
[17:13]	StarSong Bright:	we would want them consistant
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	would be a start if we pulled relevant stuff for last year and JIRA on given threads
[17:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, we'd want a main page for the group, then splinter off from there
[17:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey, it was Morgaine, i didn't do anything on that page.
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	a wiki star
[17:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	A barnstar?
[17:14]	StarSong Bright:	well, one inside the curretn one or?
[17:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wonder where morgaine is, anyway? She's online but not responding
[17:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	inside the current on?
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	she is often afk
[17:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Articles
[17:14]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahh right
[17:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	They could be added anywhere on the wiki, just add a link there
[17:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Actually, please use categories
[17:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, categories would work as well.
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	a wiki can be very fluid and have many front ends (indexes)
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	eg the undo today was completely out of topic but a good thing to put separately from inventory thread
[17:17]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:17]	StarSong Bright:	well all i am sorry to poop out on you but i am sick as a dog and its after 2am.. if i dont start rolling toward bed now i am gonna wake up with drool in my keyboard lol
[17:17]	McCabe Maxsted:	aw, okay. Hope you feel better star :)
[17:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Aww hehe, okay take care Star!
[17:18]	StarSong Bright:	see you all next week!
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	there is a risk of overlap unless delegation of topics is upfront but we could start with something we feel strongly about
[17:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	for example, the pie menu
[17:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	hehe don't laugh, gesture computing will be here before long
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	and old menues are of no use with gestures
[17:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	I hope not
[17:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'm very loose with my mouse
[17:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mouse, shmouse. Everything in the future will be touchscreens. Or holograms
[17:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	(err, that sounded wrong for soem reason)
[17:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	mmm touchograms
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	gestures allow you to be loose and yet precise
[17:20]	Aimee Trescothick uses a trackpad mostly
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	that is the whole point
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	me to i work on a touchpad all the time
[17:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's call it a day, and we can resume this topic next week. In the meantime if you want to start writing on the wiki, go for it. Remember pages can be edited and moved as needed.