User:Nyx Linden/Office Hours Transcript 2010-09-15

(Note: This is temporary. Nyx says a proper transcript is coming (maybe I just don't know where to find it?). Wanted to get something up for folks to reference. This one ends when I had to leave -- sorry 'bout that -- so if more stuff happened later, please add. Thanks. -- Qie)

Transcript

[12:00]	Nyx Linden:	greetings all
[12:00]	Daniel Voyager:	hey Nyx
[12:00]	Honour McMillan:	Hey Nyx :)
[12:01]	Kopilo Hallard:	hello world nyx
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me waves
[12:01]	Nyx Linden:	I have 60 minutes and a fresh cup of tea - I heard there are a couple questions for me :D
[12:01]	Reed Steamroller:	so these are the new mesh office hours?
[12:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	reed, yeah but it does not give a polys per prim number as far as i can read
[12:01]	Siiaas Saarinen:	hello
[12:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, will the open beta be in 2 weeks?
[12:01]	Reed Steamroller:	thats coz theres no clear answer to that
[12:02]	Nyx Linden:	let's start with the agenda topics first please :)
[12:02]	Liisa Runo:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
[12:02]	Nyx Linden:	you can read (and add to) the agenda here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
[12:02]	Reed Steamroller:	i'll have to add ponies
[12:02]	Nyx Linden:	any objection to skipping to the meshy topics first?
[12:03]	Reed Steamroller:	k
[12:03]	Cummere Mayo:	as long as we get to other topics too
[12:03]	Kopilo Hallard:	I thought it was fisrt
[12:03]	Fleep Tuque:	here for mesh :)
[12:03]	Tillie Ariantho:	Snowstorm crashes way too often without writing a dmp file. :-(
[12:03]	Gianna Borgnine:	*reminds herself to stop tping Reed to OHs
[12:03]	Gianna Borgnine:	lol
[12:03]	Aargle Zymurgy:	/me chuckles over the mesh bear entry
[12:03]	Falcon Linden:	Good, because I've gotta get back to working on mesh soon, so talking mesh first makes me happy :)
[12:04]	Reed Steamroller:	ooooooooooooo falcon
[12:04]	Nyx Linden:	first topic: "What kind limitations meshes have? How they are converted to prim counts? "
[12:04]	Reed Steamroller:	hay!
[12:04]	Falcon Linden:	Oh yeah, I'm here!
[12:04]	Gianna Borgnine:	:)
[12:04]	Reed Steamroller:	hooray
[12:04]	Nyx Linden:	so I'll start by saying the conversion to prim count calculation isn't final yet
[12:04]	Falcon Linden:	very not final.
[12:04]	Cara Ametza:	any estimation on it so far? even if a rough estimation?
[12:05]	Nyx Linden:	That being said, the cost of a mesh will be based on the filesize of the highest level of detail, or the physics cost, whichever is higher
[12:05]	Falcon Linden:	At least, for physics. But the basic formula is there, it's just going to amount to tweaking constants during beta
[12:05]	lonetorus Habilis:	so it will be one of the goals of open beta to gather statistics on uploaded meshes?
[12:05]	Reed Steamroller:	http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/the-status-of-mesh-support-in-second-life/comment-page-1 #comment-7020
[12:05]	Falcon Linden:	yes
[12:05]	Reed Steamroller:	4kb per prim
[12:05]	lonetorus Habilis:	to set a good price point?
[12:05]	Reed Steamroller:	there is the answer
[12:05]	Reed Steamroller:	i quoted runitai
[12:05]	Falcon Linden:	For the render cost, that's the current number, yes
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[12:05]	Nyx Linden:	4kb in the highest LOD only, not the entire asset
[12:06]	Reed Steamroller:	well i quoted runitai as directed by nyx
[12:06]	Reed Steamroller:	yes thank you for not hitting us with lower lods
[12:06]	Reed Steamroller:	everybody should be greatful
[12:06]	Falcon Linden:	For physics it's...rather more complicated. I'll explain it, but before I do and everyone gets overwhelmed and frightened, rest assured we will provide you with all the tools you need to visualize and estimate the costs.
[12:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	seems fair, but 4kb depends on the compressability of the mesh data?
[12:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	or are the 4k before compression
[12:07]	Nyx Linden:	4k using our compression of mesh data, not based on your collada file size
[12:07]	Fleep Tuque:	/me is having trouble visualizing that.
[12:07]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: I believe that the compression is just float to 16bit fixed point
[12:07]	Reed Steamroller:	they did a very good job of compressing the mesh data
[12:07]	Falcon Linden:	so all meshes compress at the same rate
[12:07]	Nyx Linden:	we'll have tools to show you what a mesh will cost on upload
[12:07]	Falcon Linden:	though reusing vertices will reduce the cost
[12:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	*nods*
[12:08]	Contagious Republic:	can we get a sample .dea file now? even if there will be tweaks in the future?
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	That's good Nyx
[12:08]	Rex Cronon:	when u say 4k compressed, u mean 4k vertices compressed?
[12:08]	Latif Khalifa:	4 kbytes
[12:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Those tools are offline I hope, since meshes are made offline
[12:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	its not just vertice data, also uv data etc
[12:08]	Kopilo Hallard:	3 verticies is the minimum for a plane
[12:08]	Reed Steamroller:	normals!
[12:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	morg, shown on upload
[12:09]	Contagious Republic:	is that 256 positions per axis per vertex, or 65536?
[12:09]	Aargle Zymurgy:	hm.... another fine mesh, Ollie
[12:09]	Falcon Linden:	65536, I think...
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	what is max nr of vertices, facets per mesh?
[12:10]	Nyx Linden:	second question: Can you create your own avatar mesh?
[12:10]	Nyx Linden:	answer yes!
[12:10]	Falcon Linden:	Nyx: We're not at question 2
[12:10]	Reed Steamroller:	:D
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well that's no bloody good to show on upload only. At least identify the function so that we can extract it into an offline utility.
[12:10]	Aargle Zymurgy:	o/
[12:10]	Aargle Zymurgy:		Yay!
[12:10]	Aargle Zymurgy:	/
[12:10]	Falcon Linden:	Stop cutting me off! You always cut me off! *cries* wait...nevermind.
[12:10]	Cara Ametza:	lol
[12:10]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: easy enough.
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool :-)
[12:10]	Nyx Linden:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6_twLCdxI cut off by a dancing fox (sorry :D)
[12:10]	Falcon Linden:	Anyhow, here's the complicated part
[12:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	nyx has hidden knives in is robot arms.
[12:10]	Aargle Zymurgy:	hey CG!
[12:10]	Reed Steamroller:	we should do this in voice
[12:10]	Reed Steamroller:	:D
[12:10]	Latif Khalifa:	/me waits for Falcon attempt at explaining physics cost, this should be good :P
[12:11]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	si. voice
[12:11]	Honour McMillan:	/me wishes Falcon and Nyx would play nice.
[12:11]	Reed Steamroller:	latif, ha
[12:11]	Gianna Borgnine:	lol
[12:12]	Falcon Linden:	For physics, you'll have two choices. You can either upload a physics mesh or you can use a utility in the upload tool to "decompose" it into a simpler representation. The tool lets you choose how much to simplify it, and has lots of parameters to play with. The advantage is that it will cost much less if you use the tool rather than upload a physics mesh
[12:12]	Kopilo Hallard:	chat can take multiple inputs >.>
[12:12]	Tensai Hilra:	can one 'decompose' a custom physics mesh?
[12:12]	Falcon Linden:	Tensai: absolutely
[12:12]	Reed Steamroller:	falcon, that would depend on the complexity of the physics mesh we upload, correct?
[12:12]	JB Hancroft:	Once you've used the tool to select a set of parameters, are they fixed for that mesh, from then on?
[12:13]	Reed Steamroller:	you want "fat triangles" if i remember correctly?
[12:13]	Fleep Tuque:	So the total "prim cost" for a mesh will be LOD cost + physics cost?
[12:13]	Nyx Linden:	you set the physics mesh on upload of the asset
[12:13]	Falcon Linden:	Yes, it computes the simpler representation in the viewer and uploads them
[12:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, that's great if you can set your own physics mesh!
[12:13]	Falcon Linden:	Fleep: No, it will be the greater of the two
[12:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	reed, so vertices, normals, uv coordinates, smoothing groups, material id, skinning weights, did i miss anything?
[12:13]	Falcon Linden:	If you choose to use a mesh instead, the physics cost will be different at different prim scales to account for the increased work the physics engine has to do when the triangle density is high
[12:13]	Nyx Linden:	Fleep: no, the cost will be whichever value is higher
[12:13]	Reed Steamroller:	beats me, ask nyx :D
[12:13]	Latif Khalifa:	The total cost is physics cost or mesh asset size cost whichever is greater, the last time this was brought up
[12:13]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks
[12:14]	Falcon Linden:	BUT the flip side is also true. Want to build a flat landscape? Two triangles, covering the whole sim? The physis cost will be 1 prim or less. (Yes, it can be less in some cases!)
[12:14]
[12:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	i have some early dae files that work with sl mesh, who was interested?
[12:14]	Fleep Tuque:	er everyone? ;)
[12:14]	Reed Steamroller:	you guys are forcing lod on mesh beta now right?
[12:14]	lonetorus Habilis:	ill stick some on pastebin then
[12:14]	Falcon Linden:	We're going to modify the viewer so you can't accidentally scale your mesh to the point where you'd exceed the parcel's prim limits, just to be safe
[12:14]	JB Hancroft:	lonetorus, I am, please.
[12:14]	JB Hancroft:	thanks
[12:14]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks IO
[12:14]	Qie Niangao:	so: no scale limits will remain?
[12:14]	Fleep Tuque:	er Io
[12:14]	Falcon Linden:	Reed: yes, we are
[12:14]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah
[12:15]	Falcon Linden:	Qie: Oh, yeah, good point
[12:15]	Kopilo Hallard:	Falcon: but that would be useful for offworld builds
[12:15]	Reed Steamroller:	scale limitations != good
[12:15]	Cummere Mayo:	wait so we can use meshes to landscape too? will thhere eventually be some kinda editor to allow a mesh for the groundshape? or do you mean we have to use a prim to do it?
[12:15]	Reed Steamroller:	if you limit scale, i will cry
[12:15]	Falcon Linden:	We're working on determining whether we can increase the max scale. We do hope to, but it definitely won't be ready in time for the start of beta
[12:15]	Nyx Linden:	Cummere: you would have to use a mesh object
[12:15]	Fleep Tuque:	Wait how will it calculate parcel prim limit .. that doesn't make sense to me
[12:15]	JB Hancroft:	/me doesn't like to see grown avatars crying....
[12:16]	Fleep Tuque:	The parcel I'm standing on when I upload a file is almost irrelevant.
[12:16]	Fleep Tuque:	Must be missing something there.
[12:16]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: What you'd do is flatten the terrain which, because of some separate improvements Andrew made, will effectively remove it from the physics system
[12:16]	Falcon Linden:	the one problem right now is you won't get your mesh to generate ground collision events in scripts. That's something we hope to fix at some point, but isn't a priority right now
[12:16]	JB Hancroft:	so it's not a mesh terrain, but meshes on top of the terrain... same effective result
[12:16]	Fleep Tuque:	Oh oh scale the mesh up on a parcel you mean, doh. Ignore me. :)
[12:17]	Cummere Mayo:	thats okay, most roleplayers are used to it, because half our "ground" is prims as it is anyways
[12:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	http://pastebin.com/K57xFuU3 <- clean cube mesh
[12:17]	Reed Steamroller:	hey nyx, how about those bone offsets?
[12:17]	Nyx Linden:	workin on it :)
[12:18]	Falcon Linden:	Unless there are any questions about the physics cost, I'll yield to Nyx :)
[12:18]
[12:18]	Cummere Mayo:	i have a couple falcon
[12:18]	Falcon Linden:	go for it
[12:18]	Latif Khalifa:	Fleep, there is caveat with meshes and physics costs. If you resize mesh object it's prim count might increase. What Falcon was saying is that if you scale the mesh, you cannot scale it beyond the number of free prims on the parcel, otjerwise rescaling the mesh will start returning objects.
[12:18]	Contagious Republic:	yes, nothing like a friendly lava pit, acid river, fountain of blood rundown, tiny decayed wires and cogs to liven up a roleplay ground.
[12:18]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: Actually, we're trying to make it so the viewer just won't let you do that by accident.
[12:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	falcon, clients that dont use 2.x mesh support will still bump into the (invisible) physical mesh?
[12:19]	Falcon Linden:	yes
[12:19]	Falcon Linden:	physics is all server side.
[12:19]	Aargle Zymurgy:	oh, hopefully the coalesced object bug fixed by then
[12:19]	Cummere Mayo:	first is it gonna be harder on the phsyics engine and times to use mesh trees over traditional sculpties? and second how ahrd will it be to walk on the mesh trees? will it be more closely matching what you would "expect" of a RL tree? as opposed to say the walk mesh being 6 m above it?
[12:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	that depends entirely on the physical mesh defined for your tree model
[12:20]	Tensai Hilra:	maybee I missed it, will these limits be lifted if you simply phantom the mesh? or do I have the wrong idea
[12:20]	Reed Steamroller:	that is dependent on how you set it up physically
[12:20]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah what lonetorus said
[12:20]	Falcon Linden:	Good question. Yes, it will be harder on the physics engine than scupties, but not much if you make a quality physics mesh and a quality simplification
[12:20]	Hermit Barber:	Is Nyx's awesome bear(TM) ready for release along with Mesh?
[12:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	you can have a physical box around your tree if you wish
[12:20]	Tensai Hilra:	I could care less if peole run into my trees
[12:20]	Falcon Linden:	AND you can actually make it easier on the engine
[12:20]	Contagious Republic:	how about you give the prim a limiter field, so no one accidentally makes a 14900 prim mesh and then can't find it? (happened with megaprim sculpties early, a lot, but they couldn't take 14900 prims)
[12:20]	lonetorus Habilis:	or something more like a tree
[12:20]	Reed Steamroller:	falcon, when is that new havok version making it into open beta?
[12:20]	Falcon Linden:	because you'll be allowed to say "Don't use any physics for this mesh. Instead, use these invisible linked prims for collisions"
[12:21]	Reed Steamroller:	will that happen at the same time as mesh open beta?
[12:21]	Reed Steamroller:	did it already happen and i'm just blind?
[12:21]	Tensai Hilra:	/me nods
[12:21]	Falcon Linden:	Tensai: making it phantom won't help, but they'll be a new setting "No Physics" that will do the same thing.
[12:21]	Falcon Linden:	Reed: which version?
[12:21]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	Will there be any updates on vehicle physics?
[12:22]	Tensai Hilra:	GoOD... that will help in aircraft too
[12:22]	Contagious Republic:	much like ghostcrafter already do, 'xcept it will be official
[12:22]	lonetorus Habilis:	when open beta starts, will people have to join a group to go to the enw mesh estate? (woot! 42 sregions)
[12:22]	Cummere Mayo:	(9sorry if my questions sound stupid. im not a programer/3d designer... but i want to know how i can use this stuff to better my sims and builds)
[12:22]	Falcon Linden:	Void: Only that you'll be able to have more than 32 prims as long as no more than 32 have a physics shape.
[12:22]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	/me nods
[12:23]	hi from	thornebridgetown)
[12:23]	Falcon Linden:	Did I miss any questions?
[12:23]	Hermit Barber:	When will mesh be backported to the 1.23 based clients that Jack said inflexible and incompetent (codespeak for old and female )would be able to keep using?
[12:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	cummere, you miost definitly can, but as everything else, there are good 3d developers, and there are better ones, all depends how you use the tools available
[12:23]	JB Hancroft:	you'll be able to have a physics shape on a prim-by-prim basis... no physics shape for some prims at all?
[12:23]	Rex Cronon:	is there a wiki page about meshes?
[12:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	falcon, when open beta starts, will people have to join a group to go to the enw mesh estate? (woot! 42 sregions)
[12:23]	Nyx Linden:	we're not backporting to 1.23
[12:23]	Contagious Republic:	will that make my product ghostcrafter entirely obsolete then? i better start giving it away free bundled with my other tools then
[12:23]	Reed Steamroller:	yes
[12:23]	Reed Steamroller:	you missed mine
[12:23]	Hermit Barber:	And I asked about Nyx's Awesome Bear(TM)?
[12:23]	Reed Steamroller:	new havok
[12:23]	Reed Steamroller:	the awesome one
[12:24]	Honour McMillan:	Ionetorus just came off my christmas card list
[12:24]	TheBlack Box:	any plany for a more complete collada support in the future ? allowing scenes ... and with LSL-interface to the transforms of nodes ? :)
[12:24]	Tensai Hilra:	a side note: the 'No Physics' option, can that be applied to sculpt and prim?
[12:24]	Falcon Linden:	Woah, woah, slow down :P
[12:24]	Cummere Mayo:	when this stuff goes live on the main grid, will the documentation team have video tutorials and adewuate documentation so that (for once) we can easily learn how to import and use these meshes? also will the meshes be their own asset or just like any other prim?
[12:24]	Nyx Linden:	keep it to physics questions for now, I'll answer the others soon :)
[12:24]	Falcon Linden:	JB: Yes, physics shape per prim
[12:24]	Qie Niangao:	Rex, there was a wiki page; Jeremy removed it back in May. No update since.
[12:24]	JB Hancroft:	thanks Falcon
[12:24]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: no idea about groups. That's not my thing.
[12:24]	Falcon Linden:	Contagious: Probably, yes
[12:25]	Falcon Linden:	Reed: Havok 7 is out. Havok 2010.1 or .2 is our next likely upgrade target, but neither have been released yet.
[12:25]	Falcon Linden:	Tensai: No physics can be applied to any prim that is not a root prim.
[12:25]	Reed Steamroller:	falcon, any ETA on that?
[12:25]	Rex Cronon:	well. i am interested in a wiki page with all the details about meshes. it will also make life easier for lindens. they will have to answer less questions:)
[12:25]	Reed Steamroller:	or "when its done"
[12:25]	Latif Khalifa:	Cummere, mesh shows up in your inventory like other assets, say texture, or sound
[12:25]	Tensai Hilra:	/me nods
[12:25]	Qie Niangao:	Rex: completely agreed
[12:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	theblack, as far as i know qarls awsome importer does scenes, you should then be able to manipulate the individual objects as you please (also with lsl)
[12:25]	Nyx Linden:	wiki documentation will go up with the open beta
[12:25]	are physics	proxies triangle meshes? convex meshes?
[12:26]	Falcon Linden:	Sorry, I didn't mean 2010.1 and .2. .1 is out, but we're skipping it. .2 is due in a few months
[12:26]	Mathieu Basiat:	so terrain meshes would be useless with the old viewers
[12:26]	Cummere Mayo:	latif as its own kind then?
[12:26]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah mesh scene importer works like a charm
[12:26]	Latif Khalifa:	Cummere, yes
[12:26]	Falcon Linden:	mathieu: meshes in general will be useless with the old viewers.
[12:26]	Cummere Mayo:	thank you latif :)
[12:26]	Honour McMillan:	ooops apoligies Ionetorus - it's Hermit on my black list
[12:26]	Mathieu Basiat:	will they render at all?
[12:26]	Nyx Linden:	any remaining physics questions before we move on to general mesh topics?
[12:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	honour, what did i say? ;)
[12:26]	woofs from	irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies ....
[12:27]	Mathieu Basiat:	in the old viewer i mean
[12:27]	Falcon Linden:	Physics questions?
[12:27]	Honour McMillan:	Ionetorus it wasn't you - I apologize :)
[12:27]	are physics	proxies triangle meshes? convex meshes?
[12:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	hehe
[12:27]	Latif Khalifa:	there was some changes in the viewre, at some point in the edit tool you could select prim type sculpt, subtype mesh, and drop the mesh asset where the sculpt image would go. but that was removed, and then added, and removed again, i have no idea what's the latest lol
[12:28]	Falcon Linden:	You can choose to make the physics proxy a triangle mesh or an auto-generated (with tunable parameters) set of convex hulls.
[12:28]	Cummere Mayo:	this is kinda a physics kinda not... but will the code required to render them be made availible tot eh tvps before this goes live to the main grid?
[12:28]	Falcon Linden:	I have no idea
[12:28]	Tillie Ariantho:	did you see dahlia's question? She's in via chat relay.
[12:28]	do the	hulls count as prims for prim count?
[12:28]	Falcon Linden:	Tillie: yes, I replied.
[12:28]	Tillie Ariantho:	ok ;)
[12:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	the source should afaik be open when the open beta starts
[12:29]	Hermit Barber:	Honour: Being female,. I thought it was very special of Jack to make a special exception for us :-P
[12:29]	lonetorus Habilis:	though i suspect tpv's will have a easier time moving to 2.x base and porting the old UI
[12:29]	Falcon Linden:	Dahlia: The physics cost of a mesh represented as hulls will be equal to some constant times (total_number_of_vertices - 4*number_of_hulls)
[12:29]	Falcon Linden:	or so
[12:29]	Latif Khalifa:	Dahlia, the physics and asset size costs are not added, whicever is bigger, is how much the mesh object will cst
[12:29]	Falcon Linden:	constants subject to change without advanced notice before release :)
[12:29]	ty Falcon	:)
[12:29]	Honour McMillan:	:) I'll get my baseball bat for his next OH
[12:29]	Contagious Republic:	can we get our hands on one of the currently compatible .DEA files so we can start coding mesh tools right now?
[12:29]	Reed Steamroller:	for Maya and 3dsmax users, I've found opencollada to be the best export tool
[12:29]	Reed Steamroller:	http://www.opencollada.org/download.html
[12:30]	Reed Steamroller:	opencollada is also open source
[12:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	contagious, see my above pastebin url
[12:30]	Falcon Linden:	Dahlia: but that constant is expected to be very small. Right now it's 0.04
[12:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	http://pastebin.com/K57xFuU3
[12:30]	Nyx Linden:	any last physics questions?
[12:30]	Falcon Linden:	so a hull with 29 verts would be 1 prim.
[12:30]	Mathieu Basiat:	one more question about using meshes as terrain... how will they show up on the map view? will it make the minimap useless?
[12:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	contagious, but more collada options are supported than represented in that dae file
[12:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	i kept it simple on purpose
[12:31]	Nyx Linden:	that's a map tile generation problem Mathieu
[12:31]	ll have	more later I'm sure ;)
[12:31]	Contagious Republic:	sure i'll have meshcrafter make the basics before mesh is officially out
[12:31]	Fleep Tuque:	(The minimap already is useless for seeing anything but people.)
[12:31]	Imaze Rhiano:	huh... we didnt' cover een half of questions in agenda :(
[12:31]	Falcon Linden:	All right, I've gotta get going and work on that whole mesh physics thing
[12:31]	Hermit Barber:	Mathieu: I keep hoping they will add a pair of flags, one for casts shadows and another for shows on minimap.
[12:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, do you have any idea if the sim code will be updated to be mesh aware for tile generation?
[12:32]	Mathieu Basiat:	well, it certainly is useless in viewer 2
[12:32]	Reed Steamroller:	Falcon, and a pony.
[12:32]	Nyx Linden:	lone: I'll look into it
[12:32]	Falcon Linden:	Reed: Never! No pot o' gold, either!
[12:32]	Reed Steamroller:	New announcement: Mesh objects to be measured in ponies, not prims.
[12:32]	Nyx Linden:	alright next agenda topic: Can use current bones/armature of LL avatar mesh in your avatar meshes?
[12:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes
[12:33]	Nyx Linden:	yes! you just have to specify vertex weights for the bones :)
[12:33]	Reed Steamroller:	yes, but thats the only skeleton you can use :(
[12:33]	Nyx Linden:	I refer you back to the dancing fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6_twLCdxI
[12:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	when will we have offsets for bones, for arbitary skinning?
[12:33]	Reed Steamroller:	i want wings and a tail and antlers
[12:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	(and support in anim files)
[12:33]	vertex limit	for avatar meshes?
[12:33]	Hermit Barber:	I want to be able to be an amoeba with pseudopodia :-P
[12:34]	Nyx Linden:	offsets won't give arbitrary skinning, but will be helpful still.
[12:34]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah
[12:34]	Nyx Linden:	we're looking into bone offsets, but its not ready yet.
[12:34]	lonetorus Habilis:	so still limited to the set number of bones and their hirachy?
[12:34]	Nyx Linden:	for now, yes
[12:34]	lonetorus Habilis:	we want quadropeds
[12:34]	how about	morphs? like hand gestures or speech?
[12:34]	Contagious Republic:	but you're not forced to use an arm as an arm, you can make a wing, right?
[12:34]	Reed Steamroller:	i'll be able to be a terradactyl with bone offsets
[12:34]	JB Hancroft:	/me passes lone 4 peds
[12:35]	Tillie Ariantho:	More to come with an avatar 2.0 project? ;)
[12:35]	lonetorus Habilis:	contagious, yes
[12:35]	lonetorus Habilis:	when its done (offsets)
[12:35]	Tensai Hilra:	/me waits for the centipede bone set
[12:35]	Nyx Linden:	next question: Can you hide part of verticles by textures (like using alpha texture)?
[12:36]	Nyx Linden:	alpha blending: yes. alpha masking: not yet.
[12:36]	Nyx Linden:	meshes will be textured like prims
[12:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	with mesh material id assigning as prim "sides" so textures can be changed with lsl
[12:36]	Contagious Republic:	will we be able to use some texture on part of the mesh, and some other texture on some other part, to help with alpha sorting bugs?
[12:36]	Tensai Hilra:	so am I right reading into that as Blend/Mask an option later on? and for all prims?
[12:36]	Qie Niangao:	woah, can we get back to Dahlia's question about morphs? Will those be supported just by rigging to the skeleton?
[12:37]	Latif Khalifa:	on the plus side that means you can make translucent and glowing avatars ;)
[12:37]	Nyx Linden:	Tensai: its something we want to do eventually. No word yet on when.
[12:37]	Reed Steamroller:	shiney avatars too!
[12:37]	Nyx Linden:	Contagious: you can specify "sides" of a mesh to be textured independently.
[12:37]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes, there is a new shiny material
[12:37]	Reed Steamroller:	qarl called my purple one a condom :(
[12:37]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, mirror material
[12:38]	Cummere Mayo:	nyx, are there plans to eventally allow, extra limbs?
[12:38]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, can you say something about the mirror material
[12:38]	Imaze Rhiano:	not yet specual texturing?
[12:38]	Nyx Linden:	Dahlia: skeletal animation only for now, no facial anims :/
[12:38]	Imaze Rhiano:	... specular ...
[12:38]	Reed Steamroller:	imaze no
[12:38]	Reed Steamroller:	new shiney yes
[12:38]	Reed Steamroller:	psudo reflections on the very shiney setting
[12:38]	lonetorus Habilis:	looks good imo
[12:38]	Reed Steamroller:	yep
[12:38]	Nyx Linden:	don't have advanced materials yet
[12:39]	Reed Steamroller:	YET, right?
[12:39]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	shiney happy avatars having phun
[12:39]	Honour McMillan:	/me is getting inspired to go back into Blender - I'd better get blood pressure pills.
[12:39]	Aargle Zymurgy:	/me sees T2 avatars in the future
[12:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	reed, materials are for next xmas ;)
[12:39]	Hermit Barber:	MIrror mirror on the wall, aren't you scared you're going to fall? MIrror mirror off the wall, did maybe hurt a ball?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden:	next question falcon already answered: How are physical collision handles with meshes?
[12:39]	Contagious Republic:	mirror material? infinite rendering loop senses, tingling... companion cube is worried
[12:39]	JB Hancroft:	maze of little passages, all alike
[12:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	contagious, pseudo mirror ;)
[12:39]	Reed Steamroller:	the mirroring isn't raytraced...
[12:40]	Nyx Linden:	meshes first, materials later :)
[12:40]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	oooohhh
[12:40]	Reed Steamroller:	its more like an on the fly auto environment map
[12:40]	Nyx Linden:	next question: Is your bear going to be mesh bear?
[12:40]	Nyx Linden:	answer: of course
[12:40]	lonetorus Habilis:	when
[12:40]	Reed Steamroller:	who's going to make it?
[12:40]	hey latha	hey dahlia
[12:40]	lonetorus Habilis:	we should all get to add a bit to his bear
[12:40]	Contagious Republic:	defend your rights to own and arm bears! lolz
[12:41]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	hah
[12:41]	JB Hancroft:	bears with arms!
[12:41]	Nyx Linden:	I'm going to make it, and when I get some time to do so :)
[12:41]	hey Sai	and everyone at the Nyx OH :)
[12:41]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello Sai :)
[12:41]	m right	behind you Latha
[12:41]	Reed Steamroller:	the best part of that nyx, will be that you'll be able to rig it and wear it if you wanted to
[12:41]	sai just	woke up here in TBT and may not have known he had so much company ;) )
[12:41]	Nyx Linden:	maybe for version 2.0 Reed :)
[12:41]
[12:41]	Contagious Republic:	bear says: only you can prevent video card overload! (this is going to be necessary as some people will want to wear 50 complex meshes)
[12:41]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	How would sales be made for customer to buy mehs avatar for eg?
[12:42]	Nyx Linden:	last mesh question on the agenda: Will open beta start in 2 weeks, or later?
[12:42]	Tillie Ariantho:	Sai: its 40 people over here at Nyx' :)
[12:42]	Reed Steamroller:	they're putting in restrictions on ARC soon
[12:42]	Nyx Linden:	later.
[12:42]	Reed Steamroller:	and with good reason
[12:42]	Fleep Tuque:	Srsly??
[12:42]	lonetorus Habilis:	contagious, meshes can be more efficient, prims contain lots of polygons that are not visible but still have to be rendered
[12:42]	Fleep Tuque:	ARC restrictions?"
[12:42]	Nyx Linden:	we're going to announce when open beta will be in 2 weeks.
[12:43]	Reed Steamroller:	will the announcement in 2 weeks be "we're opening beta testing TODAY!"
[12:43]	Reed Steamroller:	?
[12:43]	Contagious Republic:	not to mention LOD proofing with quadruples, lol
[12:43]	Reed Steamroller:	:D
[12:43]	lonetorus Habilis:	are there set goals for the open beta?
[12:43]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah restricting the amount of stuff you can wear on your avatar
[12:43]	lonetorus Habilis:	and what are the most important ones, if yes
[12:43]	Nyx Linden:	goals for open beta are to get as many people trying it out as possible so we know what issues we need to fix
[12:44]	Fleep Tuque:	Not sure about that, the ARC restrictions.
[12:44]	Contagious Republic:	arc = avatar rendering cost. shows who's crashing everyone's viewer with 5000 individually scripted highly textured hair
[12:44]	Reed Steamroller:	philip mentioned it at SLCC.... i thought you were there :D
[12:44]	Nyx Linden:	let me be clear: this will be a technology beta, not a product beta. Things are going to be a bit rough at first
[12:44]	Gianna Borgnine:	lol Reed
[12:44]	Reed Steamroller:	please don't hit me fleep
[12:44]	Fleep Tuque:	Sure but for a machinima or some other purposes.. I dunno hard limit sounds worrisome.
[12:44]	Nyx Linden:	some things will change between the beta and release
[12:44]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, will we get the 2048^2px textures?
[12:44]	Fleep Tuque:	laugh Reed :)
[12:45]	Nyx Linden:	no change to max texture resolution
[12:45]	Qie Niangao:	well, let's talk about avatar complexity restrictions a sec. What are the plans, when the "new standard" AV will want to be 3 orders of magnitude more complex to render as the current standard--ignoring attachments.
[12:45]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, will there be tiered versions of mesh, free semi pro and pro, with different abilities?
[12:45]	Fleep Tuque:	I'd rather some kind of warning syste, so chickie with a 25,000 ARC has some notice she's being a jerk. ;)
[12:45]	Contagious Republic:	how about allowing 8192x128 textures for oblong sculpts?
[12:45]	Gianna Borgnine:	I don't know that they are going to "limit ARC" Philip just said some kind of restriction
[12:45]	Contagious Republic:	which are the same size as 1024x1024 textures really
[12:45]	Nyx Linden:	oooh ARC my favorite topic :D
[12:45]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: That will make mesh dangly bits as about half of the avatars in second life seems to like their sex rough :-P
[12:45]	Saijanai Kuhn	admires his arc of 1[
[12:46]	Reed Steamroller:	contagious, whats the point.... we're talking about mesh support here
[12:46]	Reed Steamroller:	you could just do whatever you wanted to do with a crazy oblong sculptie like that w/ a mesh instead
[12:46]	Nyx Linden:	so I'm looking into changing the ARC algorithm.....again
[12:46]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: s/That will make mesh dangly bits as about/That will make mesh dangly bits extremely popular, as about/
[12:46]	as long	as I'm still #1
[12:46]	Reed Steamroller:	and do it more easily
[12:46]	Reed Steamroller:	not to mention more efficiently
[12:46]	lonetorus Habilis:	oh noes, you will ruin my carefully mined database of ARC scores for the whole grid
[12:47]	Reed Steamroller:	i'm not saying sculpties won't have their place
[12:47]	Tillie Ariantho:	Ione: ahaha. ;)
[12:47]	Reed Steamroller:	but the days of sculptigamy are coming to an end... thank god.
[12:47]	Nyx Linden:	the current algorithm isn't really great for getting actual complexity measurements
[12:47]	Contagious Republic:	sim owner will want to be able to control ARC maxes in their sims. Some people do machinima, and some people run sandboxes, you can't have those people be happy with same max
[12:47]	lonetorus Habilis:	reed, depends on final cost, if its too expensive sculpts will still have a place for specific things
[12:47]	Hermit Barber:	lonetorus: You do lnow that there is competition amongst the fashionista to get it as high as possible? I have managed and ARC of just over 116,000 so far.
[12:48]	Reed Steamroller:	that is both rediculous and retarded
[12:48]	Nyx Linden:	Hermit: I've gotten ARC of a billion. :D
[12:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	and i used to have a arc of 300k
[12:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	but that was a nyx bug
[12:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	;)
[12:48]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: Grin :-)
[12:48]	Gianna Borgnine:	lol
[12:48]	Tensai Hilra:	/me managed 1M+ but it crashed
[12:48]	Reed Steamroller:	40 prim shoes... thats 80k poly's for YOUR SHOES
[12:48]	Cummere Mayo:	Ive een somre higher legitimate arcs then 116k hermit ><
[12:48]	Reed Steamroller:	that stuff must come to an end
[12:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Limiting what a machinimist can achieve on their own sim just because it would be excessive in public would be very bad.
[12:49]	Contagious Republic:	some people still distribute supermegaprim to reach ARC caps and hide avatar. sad
[12:49]	Reed Steamroller:	morgaine, true
[12:49]	Hermit Barber:	Reed: Unless you make them of cut torii.
[12:49]	JB Hancroft:	Nyx - what are you thinking ab out for the new ARC algorithm, then?
[12:49]	Reed Steamroller:	that is a caveat i will admit
[12:49]	Tillie Ariantho:	With meshes I think you have have fab 1 prim shoes at last. :)
[12:49]	Fleep Tuque:	Agree mOrgaine, that was my point too.
[12:49]	Cummere Mayo:	some idiot on twisted hunt had almsot 500k using viewer 2.0 and then wondered why they kept freezing and why people were getting mad at them
[12:49]	Tillie Ariantho:	can have
[12:49]	Rex Cronon:	what business has a sim owner controlling what prims u wear? the sim doesn't render your prims
[12:49]	Fleep Tuque:	Not just machinimists but educators and researchers as well might have legitimate uses for high ARC avs.
[12:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yes Fleep
[12:50]	Nyx Linden:	I have some tweaking and performance testing to do for my new ARC algorithm, but It will be released when we go to open beta (or before, if I work quickly)
[12:50]	Reed Steamroller:	ok, so limit ARC on your own system
[12:50]	Reed Steamroller:	say, "I don't wnat to see detail past 1000 ARC"
[12:50]	Qie Niangao:	but a "research" avatar of super high complexity could be a *weapon* outside the lab.
[12:50]	Aargle Zymurgy:	Well, Back to the old drawing board
[12:50]	Hermit Barber:	Cummere: A small necklace of cut torri nicely textured with high resolution textures can make time run backwards for everyone on a sim.
[12:50]	Reed Steamroller:	so the viewer doesn't show it to you
[12:51]	Reed Steamroller:	then people could be as complex as they want
[12:51]	Nyx Linden:	we are still investigating how we are going to handle the rendering of really complex avs, please don't speculate too widly about what we're doing with ARC just yet
[12:51]	JB Hancroft:	Nyx - I'll be interested to see how we can use it to monitor lag sources in large gatherings
[12:51]	Reed Steamroller:	and it wouldn't matter at all to you
[12:51]	Cummere Mayo:	anyways theres lots of other items still on nyxs agenda and only ten minutes left. can we move on past arc please?
[12:51]	Reed Steamroller:	they might end up looking funny though
[12:51]	Fleep Tuque:	(ARC has always seemed an education problem as much as a technical one to me.)
[12:51]	Nyx Linden:	correct Fleep
[12:51]	Gianna Borgnine:	agreed
[12:51]	Fleep Tuque:	Ignorance is not bliss in this case. ;)
[12:51]	JB Hancroft:	Maybe Avatar impostor option about a certain ARC cutoff?
[12:51]	Nyx Linden:	any other mesh questions real quick?
[12:51]	JB Hancroft:	*above
[12:52]	Reed Steamroller:	will your mesh bear be a pony?
[12:52]	Tensai Hilra:	my 0.02L$ , client side restrictions seem appropriate... I didnt spend 500 bux on a video card for basic avatars
[12:52]	Reed Steamroller:	that would be appropriate
[12:52]	lonetorus Habilis:	ill be here after oh and answer any mesh questions i know the answer to
[12:52]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: Can you texture every facet with a different texture? On each side or just one?
[12:52]	Contagious Republic:	jb: nice, so people with old quasi-fossilised computers can come to meetings here without looking at the wall like i do
[12:52]	Nyx Linden:	Hermit: no. there is a limit to the number of different faces you can use
[12:52]	Nyx Linden:	(in a single mesh)
[12:53]	Alimah Destiny:	sry, I came in late, will we be able to use normal maps?
[12:53]	Latif Khalifa:	It was 6 or 8, i forgot lol
[12:53]	Hermit Barber:	:-(
[12:53]	Imaze Rhiano:	face = UV map?
[12:53]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah... uv tile
[12:53]	Reed Steamroller:	in a way
[12:53]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif, 8 sides, like regular prims
[12:54]	Nyx Linden:	Hermit, if you have a genuine use case for downloading a separate texture for every single face, I have some content efficiency issues with how you're making your builds :)
[12:54]	lonetorus Habilis:	nyx, what will be done to educate builders in efficient and "correct" mesh methods?
[12:54]	Hermit Barber:	Lonetorus: A tube can have 9
[12:55]	Reed Steamroller:	lonetorus: cause and effect
[12:55]	Reed Steamroller:	and poly to prim conversion
[12:55]	Nyx Linden:	lonetorus: great question!
[12:55]	cause and	effect hasnt worked so far
[12:55]	JB Hancroft:	Mesh Mentors!
[12:55]	Reed Steamroller:	nyx, any word on upload fees?
[12:55]	Fleep Tuque:	/me snickers at Dahlia.
[12:55]	Reed Steamroller:	lonetorus, you could join Mesh Dev group
[12:55]	Nyx Linden:	I want us to develop better tools for identifying inefficient content and providing better education around it
[12:55]	Mathieu Basiat:	but won't the actual mesh be translated via uploading anyway?
[12:55]	Cara Ametza:	yeah cause and effect really is a bad way to handle it, too many people would be unleashing disasters on the grid
[12:55]	Latif Khalifa:	upload fees and prim cost should be self correcting measure :)
[12:55]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: A matter of resolution vs area. I like burned in textures on 1024m^3 prims and the limits of texture mapping become very apparent there.
[12:55]	Reed Steamroller:	thats the point of the group
[12:55]	lonetorus Habilis:	well yes, 9 if you include side 0 ;)
[12:56]	Qie Niangao:	will scripts be able to set an object to use a different mesh?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden:	upload costs are not decided yet.
[12:56]	Reed Steamroller:	and nyx was nice enough to join :D
[12:56]	Rex Cronon:	isn't mesh dev group only for those that took part in beta, under nda?
[12:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	reed, we spoke about mesh dev last night XD
[12:56]	Mathieu Basiat:	yesy, what new lsl calls?
[12:56]	Reed Steamroller:	ooooooooo
[12:56]	Reed Steamroller:	when and where?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden:	Hermit: texture repeats :)
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	Good question Qie
[12:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	regarding a seperate role for ppl who where in closed beta
[12:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	so ppl can find ppl who knows
[12:56]	Reed Steamroller:	oh yeah
[12:56]	Contagious Republic:	how about we have rendering costs of avatars listed in the new marketplace, along prim counts for rezzed stuff? that would help people think cut down is good
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	yeah, good idea
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	think it should be done
[12:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	thats what you said last night too ;)
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	i'll have to do it though
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	so don't know when that will happen lol
[12:57]	Hermit Barber:	Nyx: Not unless you are just mapping stupid cg textures onto landscapes :-P
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	seamless texture repeats will depend on how you layout your UVs
[12:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	just state it in the group info, that closed beta participants can ask for a role change
[12:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	so you wnt have to do all at once
[12:57]	Reed Steamroller:	laying out UV's will be another skill people are going to have to learn to make qulity stuff
[12:58]	Hermit Barber:	Throws a roll at the lone torus.
[12:58]	Nyx Linden:	any other questions?
[12:58]
[12:58]	Hermit Barber:	When will your bear be out?
[12:58]	lonetorus Habilis:	hermit, what what
[12:59]	Mathieu Basiat:	any new lsl calls?
[12:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	nop
[12:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	mesh are compatible with the existing ones
[12:59]	Nyx Linden:	well if my bear is mesh-based, it will have to wait until sometime after open beta
[12:59]	Fleep Tuque:	I have to run, thanks Nyx and all
[12:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	(specifically texture assignment per side)
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	ya
[12:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nyx: you should work on the bear (seriously) just so that questions about the bear are history, as they waste time.
[12:59]	JB Hancroft:	tc Fleep
[12:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	etc
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	back to work before i get the whip again
[12:59]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[12:59]	Gianna Borgnine:	:)
[12:59]	Qie Niangao:	lone: how? based on what prim type? sculpts?
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	thanks nyx
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	you rock hardcore
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	everybody: JOIN MESH DEV
[12:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes
[12:59]	Reed Steamroller:	nyx is there
[13:00]	Reed Steamroller:	to be easily found
[13:00]	ty Nyx	and Falcon :)
[13:00]	Reed Steamroller:	for harassment
[13:00]	Reed Steamroller:	:D
[13:00]	Latif Khalifa:	:P
[13:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	except they have 8 sides adressable (might be 9 as pointed out by hermit)
[13:00]	Qie Niangao:	lone: so I can change the mesh with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams, like I can swap a sculptmap
[13:00]	Imaze Rhiano:	anyone have chat log? my viewer crashed for sec....
[13:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	i did not test that
[13:01]	JB Hancroft:	(I'd like the chat log also - got get a little delayed)
[13:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	my lsl tests consisted of changeing material, colour and texture for mesh "sides"
[13:01]	Latif Khalifa:	i will test it, it should work by changing "scult map" and suppling mesh asset id
[13:01]	Jonathan Yap:	I would like a chat log too, due to getting the time wrong
[13:01]	Cummere Mayo:	i think nyx usually posts his hours
[13:01]	Qie Niangao:	right, okay, thanks lone
[13:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	but what latif says, should be possibel
[13:01]	Nyx Linden:	I don't usually post transcripts, but think I might need to make an exception this week
[13:02]	VoidTraveler Seetan:	si.
[13:02]	I can	put one on the Groupies page in a minute.
[13:02]	Nyx Linden:	danke Latha
[13:02]	Qie Niangao:	Nyx, we really do need a *temporary* wiki page as central data collection for all the questions that these folks will be answering over and over again
[13:02]	Cummere Mayo:	please nyx. I have litterally four major content makers asking me for all the details
[13:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Qie++
[13:02]	Bronson Blackadder:	sorry Imaze but its in 4 notecards
[13:02]	Imaze Rhiano:	thanks
[13:02]	Nyx Linden:	I'll be posting a transcript in the wiki
[13:03]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks nyx for your time
[13:03]	JB Hancroft:	thanks Nyx - awesome stuff
[13:03]	Qie Niangao:	(i guess they could just edit it over the top of Jeremy's deletion, now that I look at it. the page is still editable)
[13:03]	Contagious Republic:	thanks for the transcript nyx!
[13:03]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Nyx.
[13:03]	Rex Cronon:	a transcript doesn't make a good wiki article:(
[13:03]	Nyx Linden:	better than no transcript *shrug*
[13:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	rex, a good way to learn about mesh is by documenting it
[13:03]	Cummere Mayo:	no rex, but it IS a convient place to toss a transcript
[13:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	you will need to ask all the right questions
[13:03]	Contagious Republic:	make clean article start, but the transcript in talk, then
[13:04]	Gianna Borgnine:	many details listed here - http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/the-status-of-mesh-support-in-second-life

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