Doc Team/2009-11-11

Transcript

[13:08]	Torley Linden:	Er, I mean, Jonathan, I do take suggestions!
[13:08]	Jonathan Yap:	ah, okay then
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	I forget, Are G-Team Office Hours held in 2007 or 2008?
[13:09]	Youri Ashton:	hello jeremy!
[13:09]	Youri Ashton	has pinged you.
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden:	Hello!
[13:09]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	exactly what i had, but i had it for three times, logging in again after each time
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden:	Sorry I'm late!
[13:09]	Youri Ashton:	nicce had jeremy!
[13:09]	Youri Ashton	has pinged you.
[13:09]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Greetings Jeremy
[13:09]	XLR8RRICK Hudson	has pinged you.
[13:09]	Torley Linden:	Cube, I don't know as I haven't been closely involved with that recently. But last I heard from Pastrami Linden, iz going well.
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden:	Thanks :-)
[13:09]	Youri Ashton:	yw!
[13:09]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory marks yoru book, "late again"
[13:09]	Cube Republic:	your such a tease!
[13:09]	Torley Linden:	Heyyy Jeremy!
[13:09]	Torley Linden	has pinged you.
[13:09]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne marks his paw, "late" lol
[13:09]	Cube Republic:	is looking forward to making everything again* lol
[13:09]	Crystalship Rehula:	hi all
[13:09]	Jonathan Yap:	Torley, I would like to see a vidtut on making...vidtuts--if more people knew how (what software to use, etc) and some trick they could make videos to help other people
[13:10]	Jonathan Yap:	*tricks, etc
[13:10]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	No Soup for You
[13:10]	Vista Questi:	ooo torely HAS kinda coverd that , actually./ ;)
[13:10]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	duct tape!
[13:10]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	AAAHHhh!
[13:10]	Torley Linden:	Ahh yes Jonathan, I do have some advice... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Movie_help for making movies in general. I've written other things, beyond Second Life too, on the art of making vidtuts/screencasts. Let me find more articles...
[13:10]	Torley Linden:	http://torley.tumblr.com/post/195882591/some-torley-tips-on-screencasting-video-tutorial
[13:10]	Jonit Ivory:	hello Nicholas, I am an unassuming roll of duct tape, pleas no biting
[13:10]	Jonathan Yap:	ok, that's great to know (and I thought I had watched them all)
[13:11]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne sniffs curiously
[13:11]	Vista Questi:	omg ur not a big enuf FAN then! hee hee
[13:11]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory remains unassuming and tape like in nature
[13:11]	Youri Ashton:	torley, i may have a interresting topic for a new sl vid
[13:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do Saint Bernards now carry Duck Tape with their Whiskey?
[13:11]	kestryl Appin:	I know what a tcket help support is, is Xstreet support different?
[13:12]	Bronson Blackadder:	I seen torley play rip and shred guitar on his keyboards on youtube
[13:12]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:12]	Jonit Ivory:	arawn, it could become the new fashion yes
[13:12]	Youri Ashton:	a lot of residents have problems with how to get wiki working propperly etc, so that could be a interresting thing to have in vid
[13:12]	Youri Ashton:	also jire could be interresting
[13:12]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne digs a hole, puts the tape in the hole, and replaces the dirt, and walks away
[13:12]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory sneezes, from under the rug
[13:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I used the search function on the wiki and could not find what I was looking for.
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	Hahaha Bronson I like to ROCK OUT.
[13:13]	Bronson Blackadder:	yeah it sounded great
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	Youri, yes, I'm going to do some Wiki quicktips in the future. Like a quick intro to search and editing.
[13:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Arawn Spitteler suggests a vid-tut on how to show another how to use the Wiki
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	That will wait until we have Google Search — soon, I hope. It's time for a refresh.
[13:13]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	OH NOESSSSS!
[13:13]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	I seem to get a lot of " No Page Found "
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	XLR8RRICK, tell me specifically what steps you do to see that?
[13:13]	Youri Ashton:	may be a good idea to add that to short term torley, lots are complaining about it
[13:13]	Torley Linden:	Is that searching in-Viewer and clicking on an article with a "?" If so, known bug. :|
[13:14]	Bronson Blackadder:	like if you search for shadows... it usualy sends you to a thousand transcripts to OH
[13:14]	Torley Linden:	Youri, point me to SPECIFIC complaints too. Send me a whole linklist, I'll investigate.
[13:14]	Youri Ashton:	specially newer residents that do not know how to use wiki in general are complaining
[13:14]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm...looks like someone fixed "beta" and "grid" searches. They now return info on how to log into different grids.
[13:14]	Torley Linden:	Bronson, I recommend searching via google and -"office hour" Boolean.
[13:14]	Torley Linden:	Wiki is Resident-contributable so everyone has an opportunity to take 1 minute and correct a broken link or other mistake.
[13:14]	Youri Ashton:	well, most complaints are how to search for things and how to add something, specially new pages for example
[13:15]	Youri Ashton:	also what tags are used is a big issue it seems
[13:15]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne snorts "imcoming"
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	E.g., http://www.google.com/search?q=site:wiki.secondlife.com+- "office+hour"
[13:15]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	incoming*
[13:15]	Alexander9 Carver:	hello all
[13:15]	Cube Republic:	way i see it, most people dont want to fill in wiki pages etc, they just want results in a few clicks
[13:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	If they're ready to add, theyre ready to read the instructions... Where're the instructions?
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	Youri, we don't have tags. Categories, you mean? Since it sounds like you've heard a fair amount, send me links. I want specific details.
[13:15]	Youri Ashton:	think philip is either testing or crashing a lot :p
[13:15]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:15]	Torley Linden:	Re: Wiki search issues in general, integrating Google Search will simplify that.
[13:15]	Jonit Ivory:	ahh he's back
[13:16]	Crystalship Rehula:	i just have a quick question here... is there a way to make pictures when you're in mouselook?
[13:16]	Cube Republic:	google smoogle :P
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	Crystalship, yes, shortcut key.
[13:16]	Jonit Ivory:	probably testing the banlines at P Squared
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	Same as File menu > Snapshot to Disk.
[13:16]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	well in the KB I search for Black Avatar and it comes up with No page title matches
[13:16]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	AWWW MAN.......
[13:16]	Youri Ashton:	well, the tags like adding in something like building skills (so that search finds these people on building skills) etc
[13:16]	Crystalship Rehula:	aah as simple as that
[13:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	yea...I tried to edit a coupld pages using the "edit" near the paragraph I wanted to edit, but all that did was pull up a short blub of non-related text, a template. I remember digging though the source code to find the right link to the page where I could edit the text to corrent an error.
[13:16]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	no scripts lol
[13:16]	Torley Linden:	XLR8RRICK, yeah, that's a symptom of sucky MediaWiki search. Google does it better.
[13:17]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, yeah, that is a tricky thing of nested templates and stuff. When you edit a page, all used templates are shown at the bottom.
[13:17]	Youri Ashton:	a lot dont get the idea of placing a page or update from a page in general either. so i have a feeling its best to explain most things in general lines
[13:17]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory tapes the puppy's legs together
[13:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I found many good wiki pages from links, not searches. A lot of good pages of usefull info is buried under the users pages.
[13:18]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	AAAHHhh!
[13:18]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	OH NOESSSSS!
[13:18]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne gets the panda to untie him,
[13:18]	Youri Ashton:	think you did not log on to your own avi yet, but i sended a message that I contacted zai, about joining the doc OH
[13:18]	Torley Linden:	And also, on official policy pages you *can't* change, just send us a message via the form at the top of the page, like http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLT
[13:18]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Too bad he's not a cat; I think I saw some Duct Tape about
[13:18]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, if you have some faves, send them my way. Being able to create your own hotlink lists is definitely awesome!
[13:18]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory hides
[13:18]	Youri Ashton:	she told me she did have a meeting already but if she did not forget, she would place a alt here
[13:19]	Pat48 Barbosa:	waves....sorry for dropping in the middle of the stage, Torley made me do it lol
[13:19]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:19]	Pat48 Barbosa:	blame it on facebook :)
[13:19]	Youri Ashton:	zai could be very usefull in helping out as well, she is.. well... zaipedia in general :p
[13:19]	Torley Linden:	Learning Wiki stuff makes sense over the long term with a little invested each day... like a savings bank account or the incremental nature of the Wiki itself.
[13:19]	Torley Linden:	Hahah Pat48 welcome!
[13:19]	Torley Linden:	Glad you could join us. :)
[13:19]	Youri Ashton:	hi kate!
[13:19]	Pat48 Barbosa:	nice to finally meet you torley!!!
[13:20]	Jonit Ivory:	Torley, that was so Zen, I salute you
[13:20]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	Yes Zai is superbly prolific. :D :D :D :D She is one of the Wiki's top contributors in terms of quality + quantity.
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	*salutes back*
[13:20]	Youri Ashton:	yeah, you told me some time ago :)
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	OMG Nicholas, there's some fancy ASCII art. I like that Japanese diagonal smiley that's been catching on.
[13:20]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:20]	Youri Ashton:	since i usually bump into her during CT translator OH, I asked her to join us
[13:20]	Torley Linden:	ッ ッ ッ ッ
[13:21]	Jonit Ivory:	it can be duct taped, he ain't that cool
[13:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Most of the stuff I find is pretty spicific, like Robin page on how to get webit to build standalone snowglobe. For someone building snowglobe on there machine, it usefull info, so the millinon that download the bianry, useless. So figureing out what good and not is a bit tricky.
[13:21]	Youri Ashton:	was your request to me as well if im not mistaken, some time ago :)
[13:21]	Youri Ashton:	if i could try to get her in..
[13:21]	Torley Linden:	Our Doc Team has been working on some really exciting stuff, including for Viewer 2.0. We can't talk about the innards yet but it's ongoing.
[13:21]	Jonit Ivory:	your nose smells
[13:21]	Youri Ashton:	kate, dont hide! come over here!
[13:21]	Cube Republic:	would you get shot at dawn? ::P
[13:22]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:22]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Viewer 2.0 is that SL 2.0
[13:22]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne sniffs curiously
[13:22]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, my own approach to it is to bookmark stuff as I come across it, then if I think it'll be helpful to others, compile it. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/The_art_of_compiling
[13:22]	Jonit Ivory:	hmm Kate needs duct tape
[13:22]	Ellla McMahon:	if you use Sl Wiki alot, please vote for this :)) http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1366
[13:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Torley, I hope you are on the alpha/beta testing viewer 2.0 and reporting UI disign bugs. :-)
[13:22]	Torley Linden:	Ellla! I see your helpful responses in SL Answers every day!
[13:22]	Youri Ashton:	shhhh @ IM :)
[13:23]	Kate Linden:	Hi everyone :)
[13:23]	Jeremy Linden:	Jeremy Linden may or may not be testing a thing that was just mentioned... right now.
[13:23]	Cube Republic:	hi kate
[13:23]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Greetings Kate
[13:23]	Bronson Blackadder:	hiya kate
[13:23]	Torley Linden:	Hahahaha. Yes Techwolf, we are. ^_^
[13:23]	Pat48 Barbosa:	hi kate :)
[13:23]	Youri Ashton:	hey sweet kate!
[13:23]	Bronson Blackadder:	hopefully we wont have anyone trying to date you today kate
[13:23]	Youri Ashton:	lol
[13:23]	Ellla McMahon:	Thank you Torley :)) would be great if Wiki search was better
[13:23]	Youri Ashton:	like last week...
[13:24]	Bronson Blackadder:	yeah
[13:24]	Jonit Ivory:	there's always tomorrow, take heart
[13:24]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	I missed last week; some noob appreciative?
[13:24]	Youri Ashton:	was pretty funny to see tho, some joker trying to date kate :p
[13:24]	Bronson Blackadder:	very
[13:24]	Torley Linden:	Ellla, oh yes, we chatted with Zai about this as she's a Wiki Reviewer. AND we're adding Google Search, soon, I hope. That'll remove a lot of the weird problems. In the meantime, you can use...
[13:24]	Tegg Bode:	What are you saying Kates not datable? ㋡
[13:25]	Torley Linden:	http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=004599080153867122396:yq7nhvunuvi (ugly URL, searches the Wiki, bookmark it!)
[13:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Probably not, on the basis that all beautiful women are married
[13:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm...now I'me thinking of a good title to a page with links to all the folks that build the viewer.
[13:25]	Crystalship Rehula:	he said data-able, not datable :P
[13:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	all the info that folks building the viewer would find helpfull that is
[13:25]	Bronson Blackadder:	data able
[13:25]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:25]	Youri Ashton:	should ask her to join the doc team, she'll be a worthy candidate for it :)
[13:25]	Jonit Ivory:	my wife says not, she's only really happy when I talk to Blue
[13:25]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, therein is an idea!
[13:26]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	i'm not sure if this is the proper venue for this question, but i've been searching all day for an answer and can't get a clear-cut response: Is camping now illegal in SL?
[13:26]	Kate Linden:	*reading back*
[13:26]	Torley Linden:	I watch metrics for what info people are looking for and not finding, both automatically (machine-based) and manually (word on the streets, SL Answers and such, y0). So we know what needs to be obvious and always appreciative when you tell us you couldn't find something that should be wayyy easier.
[13:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall that Camping and Traffic Botting are against policy, but where's that policy documented?
[13:27]	Torley Linden:	Euterpe, if by camping you mean unfair usage of Region resources, yes.
[13:27]	Jonathan Yap:	I would like to see a better document for vehicle scripting
[13:27]	Youri Ashton:	that is still happening
[13:27]	Bronson Blackadder:	I know that the cbots are on your dashboard
[13:27]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	the way i understood it is that if a person allows camping, they must take their land off of search. is that correct?
[13:27]	Bronson Blackadder:	cbots
[13:27]	Bronson Blackadder:	Bots
[13:27]	Nicholas Hawthorne:	Nicholas Hawthorne bites the duct tape
[13:27]	Torley Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots
[13:28]	Youri Ashton:	there are still freebie places that use camping spots, as in places to camp for money over time, and do not listen to good advice
[13:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Words like Damping aren't well defined, there. Once a person can handle the terminology, they don't tend to object to the objectionable documentation
[13:28]	Jonit Ivory:	outch!* gets sticky*
[13:28]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	i understand the policy on bots, but what about people who aren't using bots to camp
[13:28]	Torley Linden:	Euterpe, provide a source for that?
[13:28]	Youri Ashton:	camping was declaired forbidden to my knowlage
[13:28]	Bronson Blackadder:	thats on your dashboard
[13:28]	Jonit Ivory:	they can set scripted agent status! oh yes a vidtut idea
[13:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can't really tell, if someone is a bot.
[13:28]	Torley Linden:	Euterpe, there are many uses for bots so it's important to be specific. Beneficial uses of bots, such as for a creative art show that delights the crowd are of course allowed.
[13:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Techwolf Lupindo thinks "There is the open source portal, but i'me thinking of something for folks that are building the viewer, "build" and "building" refers to in-word building, so there would be a lot of false hits if the title has that word..."
[13:29]	Youri Ashton:	about sploders, think you may need to read my blog for details
[13:29]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/land/blog/2009/05/21/further-clarification-on-bots-and-camping
[13:29]	Jonathan Yap:	There is a place on your account status page where you can declare if you are a bot or not
[13:29]	Bronson Blackadder:	yep
[13:29]	Cube Republic:	how could you declare if you are a bot if you are a bot , thats like 'do androids dream of electric sheep' lol
[13:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	It might be fun, for a linden to script his Linden Viewer, to follow at command, in a Djinni outfit
[13:29]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, you can use a disambiguation template. Like on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Click_actions at the top where it points to the LSL function.
[13:30]	Youri Ashton:	there are eve residents that just call you a bot and ban you on sight for that matter
[13:30]	Tegg Bode:	There is botting and there is massbotting
[13:30]	Torley Linden:	Cube: BIG PKD FAN HERE
[13:30]	Jonathan Yap:	You have to set up your account initially
[13:30]	Cube Republic:	:P
[13:30]	Ellla McMahon:	Could the link to Wiki KB be bigger and bolder on the SL Answers front page ? At least half the Qs could be answered from a simple search
[13:30]	Bronson Blackadder:	yes
[13:30]	Youri Ashton:	PKD?
[13:30]	Torley Linden:	Ellla, did you ask Lexie/Jeska about that? I can ask them too.
[13:30]	Torley Linden:	They're in charge of SL Answers layout.
[13:31]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Lexie said earlier that there were 100K hits on Answers last month
[13:31]	Torley Linden:	Answers has continued to grow! I don't know the stats but there's a lot of room for traffic between that and the Wiki, esp. for questions that've already been answered.
[13:32]	Youri Ashton:	Blue probably knows
[13:32]	Torley Linden:	Those connections need to be more obvious, so when someone needs human responses, they can get it, while at the same time having the in-seconds convenience of knowing "Hey, there's what I was looking for".
[13:32]	Youri Ashton:	he's usually with his noose in such things
[13:32]	Jonit Ivory:	it seems to be viewed as a support forum for many, I have read lamentable questions about my friend X was stalked by Y amd it's all terrible etc
[13:33]	Jonit Ivory:	hardly a tome of knowledge
[13:33]	Torley Linden:	Yes Jonit, some people want to be heard and validated, knowing it's not just them. It's bound to get messy as any human channel of communication is.
[13:34]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory nods, is thatacceptable?
[13:34]	Ellla McMahon:	but I think those are just the Q there should be on SL Answers. If the information is available elsewhere, then its duplication
[13:34]	Torley Linden:	Sad are the cases where someone keeps IMing their stalker and telling him/her off instead of muting, then publicizing this, it doesn't really help. Residents can bring up their problems but in some cases, they need to use the tools to self-govern.
[13:34]	Bronson Blackadder:	sometimes duplication is good
[13:34]	Torley Linden:	I agree Ellla, cutting down on unnecessary redundancy saves time for all!
[13:35]	Torley Linden:	Some questions keep coming up so it's good to know where the answers are.
[13:35]	Bronson Blackadder:	at least it doubles or triples the chance for an answer
[13:35]	Torley Linden:	There's a bunch of stuff that came up in SL Answers where I looked at the Wiki articles and revised them, or wrote new ones based on that hotness so they can be distributed, saving time.
[13:35]	Youri Ashton:	lots of stalkers lately
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	Bronson, in many cases, no, since that can create crowding, as seen with the many "IS SECOND LIFE DOWN!?" threads.
[13:36]	Jonit Ivory:	self governance is very easy here, mute, AR, etc, but it seems that some actually want to publicise the "drama" associated with it, this is lamenable, nd I fear it will cloud the Sl Aswers forum somewha
[13:36]	Jonit Ivory:	t
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	There should be better ways to link similar/same stuff; duplicate issues (like on the Issue Tracker for bugs) isn't helpful.
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	Yes Jonit, some people are mentally ill, too. That's just a fact of life.
[13:36]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	i agree jonit.
[13:36]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory nods
[13:36]	Cube Republic:	mental illness was invernted by psychiatrists
[13:36]	Torley Linden:	They're not Second Life problems per se, they're human problems.
[13:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	attention getters
[13:37]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	right
[13:37]	Torley Linden:	It's like every "NO DRAMA ZONE" I've walked into has, heck, had a lot of conflict.
[13:37]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	dramaholics. lol
[13:37]	Youri Ashton:	im saying the same all the time torley, no one is willing to agree on that so far
[13:37]	Youri Ashton:	a lot claim they play against avitars, not humans
[13:38]	Torley Linden:	I like knowing followup, after someone has been helped, they in turn are inspired to help others.
[13:38]	Bronson Blackadder:	yeah a lot seem to forget there is a human behind the AV
[13:38]	Jonit Ivory:	hmm someone attached a prim and made me creash!
[13:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	The World offers many perspective, of human interaction, which is better than the alternative.
[13:38]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	I have seen a lot of that Torley
[13:38]	Laurent Bechir:	it's the same on a lot of virtual communications (forums, ...), people tend to forget the uman being in front of the computer
[13:39]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Helping is Infectous
[13:39]	Niky Zenovka:	Niky Zenovka nods at Torley... The Help Domino effect... :) So cool
[13:39]	Youri Ashton:	lol, i just help others without trying to gain something or following in anyones footprints so to speak
[13:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, I was looking for Refer-A-Friend, the other day, but can find no information
[13:39]	Torley Linden:	It's sad to see heated arguments that don't result in any lasting change. Just wasted time & space.
[13:39]	Youri Ashton:	i just cant help being good :p
[13:39]	Jonit Ivory:	Yes!
[13:39]	Torley Linden:	HELP DOMINO! I like that. Instead of falling down, in a sense, we help each other rise up.
[13:39]	Cube Republic:	yes there is a certain narative that flows through a lot of intertent communications, a kind of alternative persona some people adopt, very interesting to obeserve
[13:39]	Youri Ashton:	a lot do try to abuse that though
[13:39]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:39]	Bronson Blackadder:	reverse domino effect
[13:39]	Youri Ashton:	torley, you need to be in the netherlands soon then
[13:39]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:40]	Jonit Ivory:	I visited Ross this week, never been before, what a fact filled infohub that is
[13:40]	Youri Ashton:	dominoday is coming up soon
[13:40]	Torley Linden:	Arawn, hm, last I checked, I think that was discontinued. I'm not 100% sure.
[13:40]	Youri Ashton:	17th november
[13:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	No time is wasted in Heated ARgument, if you notice what hasn't worked, in that circumstance, it's target practice
[13:40]	Youri Ashton:	trying for another world record
[13:40]	Torley Linden:	*checks* Looks like there was a recent websweep to remove Refer-a-Friend links. Its social successor has been discussed, but I don't know anything else past that.
[13:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think it's discontinued or discontinuing, but there's no mention of it's existance or status. I've actually gottn money, that way, recently, but there's nothing for the historical record
[13:41]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	I still get questions about First Land
[13:41]	Torley Linden:	Sorry to hear that confusion, Arawn, I'll ask our folks in that dept. about clarifying what happened.
[13:41]	Youri Ashton:	refer-a-friend never really works, best is mouth-to-mouth talk to get something going
[13:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Theren're still be questiona about first Land, so there should still be answers.
[13:42]	Youri Ashton:	reffer-a-friend usually ends up in 1 month tops play time and then the friend stops
[13:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	The lady I got the money for, had no idea who I was
[13:42]	Cube Republic:	lol
[13:42]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol... I think alot of people forgot they even have thier first land
[13:42]	Torley Linden:	In many cases Doc Team ping other teams for info to put out policies so they're ratified by the proper Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) for short.
[13:42]	Torley Linden:	The Wiki can certainly store historical stuff, too. There's a whole cultural aspect to it.
[13:43]	Torley Linden:	It's like, new people don't care that Xstreet was acquired by Linden Lab. Do trivia buffs? Likely so.
[13:43]	Youri Ashton:	keep doing it, i have a feeling SL may become very important for future generations :p
[13:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Is there a page for dealing with stalkers?
[13:43]	Youri Ashton:	at least the basic concept of SL though
[13:44]	Cube Republic:	i cant imagine future generations looking at screens for entertainment
[13:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	What was XStreet, before the take over, and why and when the take over; similar issues could arise, and history has uses.
[13:44]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/First_land
[13:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open a Stalkers Stub
[13:44]	Youri Ashton:	before the take over it never really had to much problems :p
[13:44]	Techwolf Lupindo:	A "history" page woujld be usefull.
[13:44]	Torley Linden:	Why, searching for "stalkers" brings up https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Stalkers It's Resident-created so hasn't officially been approved by us. Opportunity to connect that to official docs tho.
[13:44]	Niky Zenovka:	RL calls... wished I could stay, but have to go. Have fun everyone... nice chat as always....
[13:44]	Torley Linden:	Take care Niky!
[13:44]	Niky Zenovka:	Niky Zenovka waves
[13:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Before the Takeover, Linden Labs wasn't at fault for every complaint
[13:44]	Jonathan Yap:	There is a cool video of what LL was doing as they started to develop what became SL: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Culture  :)
[13:45]	Tegg Bode:	Well later viewers may be downloads into your head CPU so you would be in SL™ in true 3D :)
[13:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	What about "stalker"? (without the s)
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	Ah Techwolf, that brings up a great opportunity to do a redirect.
[13:45]	Youri Ashton:	think the doc team should approve of it, at least in a good form to make people aware of what a stalker is in the eyes of LL and their lawyers
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	Multiple Wiki page names can all be redirected to a SINGLE page.
[13:45]	Youri Ashton:	saves problems perhaps in the future
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	So, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Stalker is blank right now... but I'll add a redirect and all of you who are curious can see what that works...
[13:45]	Torley Linden:	*how that works...
[13:46]	Youri Ashton:	think you should ask scott about that
[13:46]	Torley Linden:	Youri, we do have a Community Standards part for harassment, which includes stalking.
[13:46]	Youri Ashton:	think he can help out with that subject
[13:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Making a Machinima, of how to create a redirect? You might add it to the wiki under wiki
[13:46]	Torley Linden:	Some things can be defined but not to every wordy degree. Otherwise rules lawyering erupts and it's altogether impractical.
[13:46]	Youri Ashton:	not everyone knows the diffenition of a stalker, it isnt equal in all countries and for that matter religions
[13:47]	Youri Ashton:	thats why i said to make it more clear
[13:47]	Torley Linden:	Some things are cultural for sure, Youri, that's why we encourage Residents to consult their own lawyers and local police (as-appropriate) if something unpleasant crosses over from Second Life into real life.
[13:47]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	we all stalk lindens at office hours!
[13:47]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:47]	Youri Ashton:	lol luf
[13:47]	Bronson Blackadder:	is true
[13:47]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:48]	Jonit Ivory:	I don't, Torley, I am not stalimg you, you are not that cute
[13:48]	Jonit Ivory:	stalking*
[13:48]	Torley Linden:	It's like the many questions we get about "Is it legal to do... ?" and we can't always answer that, there are times when someone needs to be aware of their local jurisdiction and call an attorney. There are times people just ask us that to see what we say and troll us, I'm aware of that.
[13:48]	Jonit Ivory:	I just come here to practice typo
[13:48]	Torley Linden:	Haha Jonit not even with my HEAD-FIN?
[13:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	different contries may be searching for something other then "stalker" for finding info on how to deal with them.
[13:48]	Jonit Ivory:	no
[13:48]	Bronson Blackadder:	actualy torely doesn't live that far from me
[13:48]	Jonit Ivory:	umm *looks closer*
[13:48]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	haha
[13:48]	Youri Ashton:	i know torley, still. LL still has a task of protecting their users in a way. specially since the servers are actually in the US. making people rather do nasty jumps from time to time
[13:48]	Torley Linden:	Techwolf, also it helps the Wiki is being translated into other languages. Laurent Bechir here is doing video tutorials in French, for example. :)
[13:48]	Jeremy Linden:	Typo? Is that a new fitness routine?
[13:49]	Torley Linden:	Youri, I didn't say we didn't have responsibility. Those are clarified in the Terms of Service.
[13:49]	Jonit Ivory:	Yes, it's Pliteas
[13:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	TrO{gO DsA[M,bN HyAqR4tDc TgrOo TgYPmE WeIjTyH P;AzWqS,. *
[13:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	:-)
[13:49]	Jonit Ivory:	umm that was typo, or mispelling for comedic effect
[13:49]	Youri Ashton:	i didnt say you didnt torley :p
[13:49]	Jeremy Linden:	Jeremy Linden grins.
[13:50]	Torley Linden:	All too often with specialized discussions (legal, technical, etc.) you get people jumping in who haven't really read up on the subject and don't understand it. I always encourage that first but it's unlikely, like RTFM, to be a practical reality. However, focusing on who is giving helpful answers helps raise the quality-in-quantity of conversation.
[13:50]	Youri Ashton:	only trying to make clear that it has to be clear to everyone. not just LL or those that do understand
[13:50]	Youri Ashton:	not everyone understands lawyer talk :)
[13:50]	Youri Ashton:	if you know what im trying to say :)
[13:50]	Cube Republic:	my dad was one, lol dinner times were like being in court
[13:51]	Bronson Blackadder:	blaming LL for someone stalking you is the same as blaming comcast for someone internet stalking
[13:51]	Youri Ashton:	lol, your in luck then
[13:51]	Resizer 1:	Touched.
[13:51]	Kate Linden:	We try to be consistent with the terms we use in KB articles along with Viewer terms. Since in the viewer you can file an Abuse Report, you'll find information in the KB by searching "abuse".
[13:51]	Resizer 1:	Touched.
[13:51]	Jonit Ivory:	point of note, anyone,presenct company accepted if there is anyone, who says "no drama" in profile, is invariably dramatic
[13:51]	Resizer 1:	Touched.
[13:51]	Torley Linden:	Good point Kate!
[13:51]	Jonit Ivory:	present*
[13:51]	Youri Ashton:	there are however people that do not know, dont even got close to something similar. or for that matter need a lot of plain english to understand
[13:52]	Cube Republic:	going to listen to some music :D
[13:52]	Centrax Runner:	Hey!
[13:52]	Youri Ashton:	hello cen
[13:52]	Bronson Blackadder:	alot of that plain english can get boiled down to a simple... file a AR
[13:53]	Jeremy Linden:	...unless you don't know what an AR is, or how to file one!
[13:53]	Bronson Blackadder:	true
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	Youri, in some sense, that's what the Community Standards is, an easier-worded rendition of some stuff from the ToS. It's important to have both versions for (1) accessibility and (2) required precision.
[13:53]	Kate Linden:	That's where tags come in handy
[13:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The AR dropdown does not cover a lot of issues.
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	Wiki interlinks are important, being able to link a key term to its definition.
[13:53]	Youri Ashton:	i noticed that a lot of words are still difficult to understand for some, this may need some attention, but thats only my opinion :)
[13:53]	Torley Linden:	And we'll never cover EVERYTHING (that's just not realistic) but catching most out what's out there and continuing to iterate serves broad usefulness.
[13:53]	Vista Questi:	if u wanna be ungreifABLE, be tolerant yourself, first!
[13:54]	Youri Ashton:	oh i agree on that torley
[13:54]	Torley Linden:	Sometimes something really needs better explanation. Sometimes someone is just lazy.
[13:54]	Youri Ashton:	it just may be wise to have a 'simplified' version also along side
[13:54]	Torley Linden:	Takes a lot of experience to figure out that out and make a cut in the shades of gray that isn't unsatisfyingly ambiguous.
[13:54]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory nods, from whta I have seen of teh AR process, it is not difficult if you step back and without emotion file it as best you can
[13:55]	Jonit Ivory:	what*
[13:55]	Torley Linden:	Youri, also, there are some things we can't simplify to the degree where it's abstract as to be unenforceable, and can be loopholed too easily. E.g., "don't do bad things".
[13:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Maybe we should have sim ratings for Abuse Tolerance, to warn those who can't take a joke
[13:55]	Jonit Ivory:	darn Torley's fin is making me typo, AR Torley!
[13:55]	Youri Ashton:	true torley
[13:55]	Torley Linden:	Hahaha. "i herd u liek melons?"
[13:55]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[13:55]	Jonit Ivory:	I do
[13:55]	Jonit Ivory:	this is beside teh point
[13:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	If renamed Abnormality Report, they woulnd't feel so abusive, and could be filed more easily when appropriate
[13:56]	Torley Linden:	Hahaha.
[13:56]	Jonit Ivory:	or Torley's "some people are just unwell report"
[13:56]	Bronson Blackadder:	LOL
[13:56]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	i've been hesitant to fill out an AR before
[13:56]	Bronson Blackadder:	I like that
[13:57]	Jeremy Linden:	Abnormality report #9998347123: Furry humanoid sighted.
[13:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	For someone to say Hello, another might consider this Abuse. Momentary Stalkers might be more abnormal than abusive
[13:57]	Youri Ashton:	Jonit: problem is, usually the G-team doesnt read the whole text sended in. I been told be several g-team members that they are only allowed to use 10 minutes per case. which makes them read just the first 2 or 3 lines mostly
[13:57]	Torley Linden:	Why so, Euterpe?
[13:57]	Youri Ashton:	thats why it is important to add a picture
[13:57]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I know a few places that ban when someone starts talking like a teen SMS message.
[13:57]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	The AR System works well and the GTeam is doing a fantasic job
[13:57]	Vista Questi:	chat greif can NOT be LL's responsibility!
[13:57]	Jonit Ivory:	Well Youri, G-Team is trained, and they get a feel for issues by sheer volume
[13:57]	Vista Questi:	yes, they are!
[13:57]	Vista Questi:	the recact real quick! so yay to that!
[13:57]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	well, i guess i just don't know enough about the procedure. for example, if someone is abusing, and i report it, I wouldn't want their account to get deleted or anything.
[13:58]	Torley Linden:	lol omg tekwolf dats funy
[13:58]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	do they get warnings?
[13:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ten Minutes is too much time, and not enough. All too often, the G-Team needs an AR
[13:58]	Youri Ashton:	as i usually say, only really need commen sense. the rest is experience :)
[13:58]	Torley Linden:	Euterpe, they do. Depending on the seriousness of their offense.
[13:58]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	does the person who filled out an AR get a follow up?
[13:58]	Bronson Blackadder:	no
[13:59]	Youri Ashton:	usually not
[13:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The new tool that griefters are useing is the AR.
[13:59]	Kate Linden:	Euterpe, you can check our security page for info: http://secondlife.com/policy/security/harassment.php
[13:59]	Jonit Ivory:	iz dat tru Tecch, XD (badly does a teen SMS message to make comedy) anyway teens grunt and whinge, they rately talk
[13:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you file an AR, you're deservedly left in the dark.
[13:59]	Youri Ashton:	unless they filled in a AR that isnt right, as in it never had need for it to be send
[13:59]	Jonit Ivory:	ahh imagine if you got feedback on ARs
[13:59]	Torley Linden:	Hm Kate, wasn't that sourced from our KB? It'd be neat to be able to transclude a Wiki page into that so that it could be easily updated.
[14:00]	Jonit Ivory:	oh teh abuse of it that would happen
[14:00]	Youri Ashton:	or in any othe rcase it may cause a problem, wrongfull accusations for example
[14:00]	Kate Linden:	yes, one sec
[14:00]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	yeah that has scared me before actually... there was a girl trying to fight with me one day (no, i'm not kidding, fighting animations and all) and she started follwoing me everywhere. i thought about an AR but then i thought she might do one as a backlash, so i didn't
[14:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I personally know a few that got susbinded due to being grrieft via the AR process. Griefter find the AR process very effected to grieft someone with.
[14:00]	Torley Linden:	Personal attention and followup is lovely. Alas due to scalability, not always practical or possible with some things.
[14:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I had one emergency come up, during G-Team Office Hours, that somebody ARred a comedy show, and the Comic got suspended, during the show
[14:00]	Kate Linden:	It's sourced from our "What should I do about abuse that moves outside of Second Life" article
[14:00]	Torley Linden:	Euterpe, I know some people have tried to persist griefing under alts and that's the wrong, stupid thing to do, so their alts were shut down too.
[14:00]	Torley Linden:	Thanks Kate.
[14:01]	Youri Ashton:	agreed torley, i wish the g-team indeed did a follow up, tell what they did to solve the problem for example
[14:01]	Youri Ashton:	isnt done now
[14:01]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	yeah that would be nice
[14:01]	Jonit Ivory:	no, if reportes get any feedback from ARs it would encourage ARs as a revenge mechanism, they work well as they are
[14:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wonder if Mentors could be extended to screen the ARs, and let the unscalables take the refined cases.
[14:01]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	I dont think the GTeam gets fooled by bogus ARs
[14:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Just a automated responce back the reporter would be nice. Like "no action taken" or "temp bann" or "perm bann" is all that is needed.
[14:02]	Youri Ashton:	it wont jonit
[14:02]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	what if someone falsely fills out an AR?
[14:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	GTeam gets fooled all the time, especially if it happens enough that they learn better.
[14:02]	Vista Questi:	that's grief too, hun.
[14:02]	Youri Ashton:	the person getting the punishment will not receive the name of who complained
[14:02]	Torley Linden:	Yeah, fake and unsubstantiated ARs get thrown out. Repeat offenders are guilty of misrepresentation, and possibly other things... including wasting our time!
[14:02]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	i mean, if someone did that to me and my account got deleted i'd be fuming.
[14:02]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	yeah
[14:02]	Youri Ashton:	false AR is a problem as well
[14:02]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Corn Field
[14:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	There was a time, that you could report crimes to a portal and, if the crime didn't check out, you'd be investigated. I think it was in Venice
[14:02]	Youri Ashton:	cornfield is free to be entered :p
[14:03]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonit Ivory is looking for an AR category for the Torley fin
[14:03]	Vista Questi:	the liklihood is close to zero, euterpe
[14:03]	Kate Linden:	Go to Help > Corn Report
[14:03]	Torley Linden:	Hahaha. ___|___
[14:03]	Kate Linden:	lol
[14:03]	Jonit Ivory:	Gah!
[14:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[14:03]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	id on't know vista, i've run into a lot of dramaholics and crazies
[14:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	arg....I just notice its no-script here. The office hour HUD is not working here.
[14:03]	Youri Ashton:	make sure you fly before teleporting tho, else you need to walk everything there :p
[14:03]	Vista Questi:	im pretty much a grief-proof bunny Euterpe.
[14:03]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	lol
[14:04]	XLR8RRICK Hudson:	Mia did a super job on the Corn Field
[14:04]	Vista Questi:	for 3 lindens and a few hours of your time
[14:04]	Vista Questi:	i can SHOW u
[14:04]	Vista Questi:	how to be like that lol
[14:04]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Brb, I have to find a script area.
[14:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Flying in a no fly zone is easy. The Offic e Hours HUD just needs a control event
[14:04]	Youri Ashton:	she sure did :)
[14:04]	Youri Ashton:	i actually have a part of the cornfield in my inv :)
[14:04]	Kate Linden:	XLR8RRICK I agree! Mia did an outstanding job on the corn field and asylum.
[14:04]	Pat48 Barbosa:	uh oh, I scared the melon away
[14:04]	Youri Ashton:	got it from blue
[14:04]	Vista Questi:	Vista Questi sobs
[14:04]	Euterpe Aluveaux:	you can fly in no fly zones without a hud
[14:04]	Torley Linden:	Sorry, crashed. :)
[14:04]	Vista Questi:	time is over, isn't it.
[14:05]	Jeremy Linden:	Cutting here for the transcript :-)
[14:05]	Torley Linden:	Alas yes we have come to the end of our office hour for today!

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