Open Source Meeting/2009-04-07

Extra meeting held in voice to discuss new http-texture work.

[11:04] Tofu Linden: up it to 640
[11:04] Techwolf Lupindo: I vote for that sence you are using voice. No lag due to full server. :-) Everyone is sitting, up the sim limit is good too. :-)
[11:04] Tofu Linden: 640 residents should be enough for anyone.
[11:04] Cron Stardust: LOL
[11:04] Soft Linden: Ha!
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:04] Fred Rookstown: Yep
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: LOL Tofu :-)
[11:04] Dain Shan: Indeed
[11:04] Obsidian Stormwind: <-- turning off scripts to help reduce any lag.
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Loud and clear, listening only.
[11:04] Zha Ewry: anyeone who can't hear Phil, shout out
[11:04] SignpostMarv Martin: been ages since I seen that technicolor cod piece :-P
[11:05] Opensource Obscure: as a Linux user it's actually the first time i can hear well (i'm using http-texture last build)
[11:05] Rob Linden: tell me if you can't hear Philip
[11:05] Universal Translator: Welcome to the Universal Translator. To configure options type "translator" into public chat. For privacy use channel #777 by typing "/777 translator".
[11:05] Rob Linden: Philip is starting now
[11:05] Cron Stardust: I'm on Gentoo 64bit, and SL voice is working in 1.22.11 (113976)
[11:05] Techwolf Lupindo: For gentoo users, there is my overlay that has working voice on 64 bit plus some svn brances, like http-texture.
[11:06] Fred Rookstown: SL voice works on the latest ubuntu but pulseaudio occasionally crashes.
[11:06] Teravus Ousley:
[11:06] Anissa Sorbet: yell! Scream!
[11:07] Merov Linden: coughs
[11:07] SignpostMarv Martin: remembered poking Jeff about HTTP map tiles ages ago :-P
[11:08] Anissa Sorbet: Anyone else getting breakup in voice?
[11:08] Paul Bumi: nope
[11:08] Dirk Talamasca: no
[11:08] Paul Bumi: clear for me
[11:08] Fred Rookstown: No breakups here
[11:08] Cron Stardust: lightly but not distracting.
[11:08] Coco Linden: coughs too
[11:08] Latha Serevi: can try turning volume down, often theree's clipping.
[11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Perfect here
[11:08] Rob Linden: Philip is talking about the history of developing the map tiles on S3, and getting it into a viewer that people can use
[11:08] Universal Translator: Welcome to the Universal Translator. To configure options type "translator" into public chat. For privacy use channel #777 by typing "/777 translator".
[11:09] Paul Bumi: bless you
[11:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Philip has got the right mic level. Nice and loud and not clipping.
[11:09] Rob Linden: Philip: the process of getting the map tiles in the viewer lead to looking at building the viewer in the open
[11:10] Latha Serevi: ...but if I crank my individual voice volume for Philip to max, I can make him staticky as hell. Don't do that. :-)
[11:11] Rob Linden: Philip sez: interesting thing about open source is decentralized management (like we've had internally at Linden Lab) taken to an extreme
[11:11] Rob Linden: Philip sez: what we haven't yet done so far is having automated public builds, or having outsiders directly committing, or publicizing a separate viewer built by the community
[11:12] Rob Linden: Philip sez: it's seems frustrating to people to have to have work go through the long process we've traditionally had for contributors
[11:13] Rob Linden: Philip sez: also, Merov (who worked on the map tiles) also has a deep background in OSS (e.g. his work on OSAF)
[11:13] Cron Stardust: maybe a build-machine cluster for speed?
[11:14] Rob Linden: Philip sez: so, now, you can do some work on the viewer, and have a download link to send your friends to give it a try pretty quickly
[11:14] Fred Rookstown: Should be both distcc and a singular build machine; I occasionally get some odd quirks in distcc that don't appear in undistributed build
[11:15] Rob Linden: Philip sez: something we need to work on together is deciding how people get commit access, quality bar for viewers getting on the main download page
[11:15] Geo Meek: /:-)
[11:16] Rob Linden: Philip sez: one model to go with is the "fast follower" model (like Firefox) which has a well-known problem domain
[11:16] Rob Linden: Philip sez: another approach: a developer-centric release with features driven by what developers want
[11:17] Rob Linden: Philip sez: the thing I'm excited about (which is ok if you're not on board) is making a "generally interesting" viewer
[11:18] Paul Bumi: will it have live shadow casting/rendering? :P
[11:18] SignpostMarv Martin: sounds like Imprudence
[11:18] Morgaine Dinova: Question: would there be opportunity for multiple branches? Because not all commits make sense within the same branch, as different people have different ideas for the way forward.
[11:18] Kaiser Bogomil: ray tracing?
[11:18] Rob Linden: Philip sez: ...that is something targeted to general end users, and have really broad applicability. for example: faster startup or greater stability
[11:19] Tofu Linden: or diminished appeal.
[11:19] Rob Linden: Philip sez: it's ok to have some advanced features like raytracing *so long as* it doesn't introduce risk or problems for a mainstream audience
[11:19] Tofu Linden: 1.23 will have that stuff (off/hidden by default)
[11:20] Cron Stardust: this is where a module "firefox-extension"-like system would help with making a general viewer capable of doing more, modularly.
[11:20] Rob Linden: Philip sez: hopefully we can move faster in this project than we can work in our internal work on some things
[11:20] Keex Rexroth: if it can filter out when i am picking my nose, then i'd buy it
[11:21] Merov Linden: :D I'll take that as a requirement Keex!
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Question: would there be opportunity for multiple branches? Because not all commits make sense within the same branch, as different people have different ideas for the way forward.
[11:21] Rob Linden: Philip sez: we've got some big projects in the pipeline, and my hope was to work on the smaller iterative improvements
[11:21] Kaiser Bogomil: what is the state of development in http textures?
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: No, I meant for example to explore different ways of making UIs
[11:22] Kaiser Bogomil: http on a cube
[11:22] SignpostMarv Martin: again, sounds like Imprudence :-P
[11:22] Fred Rookstown: (OPTIMIZATION)
[11:22] Rob Linden: Philip sez: if this works, yes. we need to have some early success first
[11:22] Mm Alder: If the branch has multiple new features that are being developed concurrently, how do you pull them out one at a time to incorporate in the main viewer?
[11:23] SignpostMarv Martin: 100% Open Source fun. no memory leaks :-P
[11:23] Latha Serevi: Generally, the new external-commit approach is great stuff, right on target, we love it!
[11:23] Merov Linden: sounds like Rob is calling from outer space...
[11:23] Obsidian Stormwind: I'd like to see a viewer that shows position and rotations to the 5th decimal. This may be more exact than more non-builders need, but builders sometimes need to line things up "exact".
[11:24] Cron Stardust: What kind of build system would you use? Distributed or single-machine, or both?
[11:24] Gwen Carillon: yes
[11:24] Fred Rookstown: Yes
[11:25] CG Linden: we may choose to host that externally, eventually
[11:25] Latha Serevi: I echo the request for a quick update on http textures
[11:25] Dain Shan: Yepp
[11:25] Geo Meek: im recording you
[11:25] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[11:25] Rob Linden: Philip sez: not substantially changing the UI
[11:25] Techwolf Lupindo: My contrubition is my gentoo overlay that has quiet a few brances, including Imprudence. This is to make it easy for end users to test differenct brances. Feedback has been positive from devolpers due to easer testing.
[11:25] Rob Linden: is having a problem both being notetaker and participating :)
[11:25] Prokofy Neva: where will you put the search button on the new viewer?
[11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: I lost voice.
[11:26] Fred Rookstown: Voice is still working for me.
[11:26] Fred Rookstown: (A miracle, on my machine)
[11:27] Rob Linden: Philip sez: one thing that's a general problem in OSS is that developers feel they should be able to throw code over the wall, and let QA/etc to have to deal with the consequences
[11:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Grrr...have to wait for voice to reset on me. This is a known problem. There is a jira entry.
[11:27] Cron Stardust: absolutley.
[11:27] Gordon Wendt: isn't that one of those things sldev would be good for?
[11:28] Prokofy Neva: yes that's what Second Life is *for*
[11:28] Rob Linden: Philip sez: we need to think as engineers about making sure we have tests and other upfront work to make sure that we aren't creating downstream problems
[11:28] Gordon Wendt: I realize that it has to be done mostaly internally but is externalizing some of the excripting revamp work part of the agenda?
[11:28] Fred Rookstown: Someone asked earlier about the status of HTTP textures
[11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: great synthesis, that last line of yours.
[11:28] Gordon Wendt: *scripting
[11:29] Latif Khalifa: you mean http texture on a prim face?
[11:29] Prokofy Neva: well except what Philip said was *sitting next to each other* that was key
[11:29] Teravus Ousley:
[11:29] Rob Linden: Philip sez: (in response to HTTP assets): that's what we're hoping to get out there.
[11:29] Paul Bumi: its only possible on your own stream right?
[11:30] Teravus Ousley:
[11:30] Rob Linden: Philip sez: part of what we'll do as part of this open source effort is evanglize the idea that poeople doing work internally at Linden Lab consider doing that work in our public branch
[11:30] Latif Khalifa: What about coordination with the server guys? Stuff like http texture on a prim face require protocol changes.
[11:31] Teravus Ousley:
[11:31] Rob Linden: Philip sez: we're definitely sensitive to the problem of IP identification, and makign sure that assets proxy through us if that's what people want
[11:31] Zha Ewry: Plenty of OpenSi peeps listening here
[11:32] Fred Rookstown: Teravus: Your messages aren't getting out
[11:32] Zha Ewry: Visibility into the changes forthcoming inside the lab
[11:32] Rob Linden: Philip asks: what do you all think is wrong with our open source process right now that I haven't talked about?
[11:32] SignpostMarv Martin: proprietary codecs for voice chat
[11:32] Prokofy Neva: No Quick Impact Projects that really convince the consumer that opensourcing the viewer does anything good besides adding more opportunities for hacking and griefing
[11:32] Robin Cornelius: i missed the start, but feed back on what is happening from your dev team
[11:33] Techwolf Lupindo: I notice there is not enough time on the bug triages to get to all the bugs. Good patches are missed due to not able to get though the bugs and onto the patches at the bug traiges mettings.
[11:33] Rob Linden: Philip sez: re: visibility. one thing I beg indulgance on is that you may be expecting more of a roadmap than we have for ourselves
[11:33] Latif Khalifa: Linden Lab takes too long to accept patches, its frustrating to provide a bug fix and wait half a year - yeaer for it to get into the release viewer.
[11:33] Obsidian Stormwind: Are there methods for the open-source community to contribute non-code (textures, scultped prims,e tc) to Linden Lab for "public domain" use?
[11:33] Gwen Carillon: Why isn't there a road map?
[11:33] Paul Bumi: u must have some milestones to put out
[11:34] Aleric Inglewood: No full documentation of protocol
[11:34] Latha Serevi: Philip, perhaps you could toggle your mic off when Rob talks
[11:35] Gordon Wendt: a roadmap for some future changs that have been pretty much promised would be nice if at all possible, like the external coding languages support
[11:35] Rob Linden: Philip sez: @Lativ: we'll be quicker in this branch
[11:35] Soft Linden: Or other projects that have a roadmap format you like
[11:35] Zha Ewry: / Regression tests
[11:35] Rob Linden: Philip asks: what sorts of things would qualify as roadmap items?
[11:35] Cron Stardust: What about a group of public open source developers who are interested in BEING the group QA for OS?
[11:35] SignpostMarv Martin: [1]
[11:36] Latif Khalifa: An idea might be to establish a formal opensource QA team, with a team leader and group that will work on it. This has worked for some large opensource projects that I have been participating with (PHP).
[11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: takes a moment to pitch participation in python viewer develoipment (pyogp)
[11:36] Prokofy Neva: Maybe you need a new corporate mission statement now that it isn't 'connect us all' and you have these sims in a box now
[11:36] Merov Linden: Cron Stardust: would be great to have folks vounteering for QA on sldev
[11:36] Prokofy Neva: STOLEN
[11:36] Latha Serevi: Does "lifted" mean "cloned by somebody"?
[11:37] Prokofy Neva: Yes, Philip entire builds and textures are swiped and parked in OpenSim
[11:37] Soft Linden: I lost track of how this relates to a roadmap
[11:37] Prokofy Neva: Soft, a plan to deal with IP theft *is* a roadmap for continuing the viability of the company
[11:38] Dirk Talamasca: The Tech
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: does think IP rights are important as well.
[11:38] Catherine Cotton: I second what Prokofy brought up.
[11:39] Fred Rookstown: The problem is, you either send data to the viewer, or you don't/
[11:39] Prokofy Neva: Philip it isn't just th eproblem of us poor chickens on the main grid, it's about how the Nebraska boxes will work - the nebraskans can't upload content into their box sims, and of course they form a lobby that wants to do that, and then what about their IP coming out of the firewall to a meta market above the boxes
[11:39] Kaiser Bogomil: you can use Mod_Rewrite to prevent theft of http textures
[11:39] SignpostMarv Martin: is voice chat ever going to get an open-source codec ?
[11:39] SignpostMarv Martin: Speex ?
[11:39] Fred Rookstown: I thought SL used SIP
[11:39] Tofu Linden: (celt)
[11:39] Dirk Talamasca: I'll do it myself for the salray of only 75 Philip. I promise
[11:39] Zha Ewry: SL uses Vivox
[11:40] Rob Linden: I can break in here.....I think that's a great question for Vivox
[11:40] SignpostMarv Martin: for those not familiar with Speex, see [2]
[11:40] Latif Khalifa: An idea might be to establish a formal opensource QA team, with a team leader and group that will work on it. This has worked for some large opensource projects that I have been participating with (PHP).
[11:40] Gordon Wendt: Phillip, is the implemenation of external scripting languages still on the eventual plan and is that going to be one of the community endeavors
[11:40] Rob Linden: open@lists.vivox.com I believe
[11:40] Prokofy Neva: Are you going to take a look t those successful viewers like Nicholasz or Kirsten?
[11:41] Gordon Wendt: agrees with Prok, LL could learn a lot by Nicholaz's viewer
[11:41] Mm Alder: The Vivox mailing list doesn't have much action because it isn't open source yet.
[11:41] SignpostMarv Martin: Philip used to work at Real Networks :-P
[11:41] Aleric Inglewood: I have no working voice :(
[11:42] Zha Ewry: And the mixing is driven off relative positions.. which means changes in mixing as people move
[11:42] Fred Rookstown: Just make a forum
[11:42] Fred Rookstown: :P
[11:42] Rob Linden: Cron: how do we form an open source QA team?
[11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: promotes pyogp in reference to QA
[11:42] Tofu Linden: testplans with patches = super win (thanks Aimee)
[11:42] Zha Ewry: regression tests
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: yeah but you formalize it in a way.
[11:43] Rob Linden: Philip sez: great thing to talk about. it sounds like a partnering opporunity.
[11:43] Latha Serevi: Given the new open source commit process, presumably stuff like Nicholaz's might find a path into the mainstream via external commits to LL's new open source repository?
[11:43] Zha Ewry: co-development/peer programming is a huge win
[11:43] Nyx Linden: being forced to explain your code in real-time to another person helps catch a lot of bugs / edge cases
[11:43] Dirk Talamasca: Voice is beautiful for learning and teaching.
[11:43] Wyn Galbraith: it's a great idea
[11:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Many open source folks live in different time zones and are not awake/online at the same time.
[11:44] Nyx Linden: (we have that problem too :) )
[11:44] Mm Alder: Sounds like code review should be an integral part of this new project.
[11:44] Cron Stardust: Perhaps a dayly/continuing meeting time/area for OS devs in SL...
[11:44] Teravus Ousley: hehe, agreed, time zones are tricky :P
[11:44] Dirk Talamasca: Chocolate milk on a prim would be great right now.
[11:44] Latif Khalifa: most OS teams have a thing like commits list, where each commit with a diff gets sent, in that way many eyeballs look at each change going in
[11:44] Gordon Wendt: San Francisco, Boston, London, don't know what the other two are
[11:44] Rob Linden: Philip sez: @Techwolf .... I hear you. it's a big problem
[11:44] Merov Linden: thinks he should have some Office Hour IW
[11:45] Zha Ewry: Sleep is such a problem
[11:45] Gordon Wendt: wow
[11:45] Nyx Linden: seattle, davis
[11:45] Fred Rookstown: Yes, sleep is a MAJOPR issue.
[11:45] Fred Rookstown: Except spelled correctly.
[11:45] Aleric Inglewood: Clear, authoritive (think "standard") and formal documentation is the most important thing for Open Source development to work imho. If it was exactly documented how the code of a given (internal?) API of the viewer should work, then anyone can sit down and write a testsuite for it. After that anyone can sit down and write patches to show that it improves speed etc.
[11:45] Aimee Trescothick: gave up sleeping years ago
[11:45] Merov Linden: couldn't hear Cron
[11:45] Paul Bumi: codefield instead of cornfield?
[11:45] Zha Ewry: Put some standard things to render and test against
[11:45] Paul Bumi: :D
[11:46] Tofu Linden: looks around at this sim
[11:46] Prokofy Neva: OpenSource Lounge of SL
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: hehe, codefield
[11:46] Fred Rookstown: Brilliant
[11:46] CG Linden: cubicle-ville :)
[11:46] Soft Linden: Right now that's kind of efnet #opensl
[11:46] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to see somekind of pipeline where one can place a question/commints and come back next time they are awake and hopefull see some actions on the previous question/connint.
[11:46] Gwen Carillon: that's a great idea
[11:46] SignpostMarv Martin: Open Source Linden Village ?
[11:46] Aimee Trescothick: equivalent of the IRC channel
[11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks we need new whiteboard group IM capabilities in SL to allow better collaboration
[11:46] Merov Linden: it's kind of empty... should we build in?
[11:47] SignpostMarv Martin: Merov: move your office here :-P
[11:47] Prokofy Neva: the whiteboard capacity of SL is called "Googledocs in the other window"
[11:47] Merov Linden: well, I don't have an IW office yet
[11:47] Merov Linden: would be a good idea
[11:47] Rob Linden: Hippotropolis is meant to be open source central for us
[11:47] Latif Khalifa: (and working group IM is called IRC in another window) :P
[11:47] Gordon Wendt: would be nice to have clipboard.secondlife.com similar to what they have on one of the ubuntu sites
[11:48] Gordon Wendt: as a public copy/paste bin
[11:48] Gordon Wendt: currently people use the wiki for that as a hack
[11:48] Merov Linden: I'm on #opensl most of the time
[11:48] Cron Stardust: once I learn to IRC.. :P
[11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy and Latif, yeah, but should have the capbility for peer 2 peer whiteboards that can display 2D AND 3D data
[11:48] Paul Bumi: i wanna see bump/normal maps :P
[11:48] Paul Bumi: mesh
[11:48] Paul Bumi: hehe
[11:48] Prokofy Neva: well there are only so many facets to a prim, so you can't add to that, as we all know, until they make HTTP on a prim
[11:48] Latha Serevi: Aleric mentioned the usefulness of documentation to an open source process. Does the new repository address documentation at all?
[11:49] Merov Linden: the new parts of the http texture and map stuff are documented (well, I started one...)
[11:49] Latha Serevi: If I contribute a hunk of code, where/how should I document it?
[11:49] Teravus Ousley: there is a lot of stuff
[11:50] Dirk Talamasca: Maybe we could reach out more and engage more contributors. Many residents miss the blog, or don't frequent office hours or the wiki.. Maybe something on MOTD or even a bit on the web site.. a banner on your account page which you are sure to check now and then that alerts residents to things going on in SL.
[11:50] Cron Stardust: what about building with an inline docuemntation system?
[11:50] Aleric Inglewood: What about starting to use doxygen in the viewer?
[11:50] Zha Ewry: Regression tests, too
[11:50] Cron Stardust: ya, doxygen
[11:50] Latha Serevi: The question was more, is there guidance to help _contributions_ to be documented
[11:50] Cron Stardust: or any language
[11:50] Techwolf Lupindo: I have been seeing more and more users build there own client and the documation for doing that is severly lacking. I see many common problems with questions from users doing windows builds.
[11:50] Fred Rookstown: /**\n* Whatever\n*/
[11:50] Zha Ewry: The more we're trying to do collective QA, the more regression tests are helpful
[11:50] Gordon Wendt: since when has the SL code been commented to any standard :)
[11:50] Merov Linden: we have doxygen I think but it's mostly boilerplate stuff :\
[11:51] Mm Alder: Doxygen is not a substitute for user documentation.
[11:51] Robin Cornelius: Dale glass did one and i have one
[11:51] CG Linden: I don't have it in the builds... would be nice though
[11:51] SignpostMarv Martin: uses phpDocumentor. automated documentation generation is good :-)
[11:51] Latha Serevi: I guess I'll just have to listen for comments on the mailing list and read the source. Sigh.
[11:51] Catherine Cotton: *giggles @ Gordon
[11:51] Prokofy Neva: Philip could you comment whether you think these new Nebraska firewall things break your vision of a connected world? Have you had to revise your concept of the world? is there still a world?
[11:51] Morgaine Dinova: Doxygen helps, but it's not magic. It doesn't replace the need for good comments from designers and programmers.
[11:51] Cron Stardust: absolutley.
[11:51] Merov Linden: +1 on Morgaine
[11:51] Zha Ewry: Definitely effective
[11:51] Robin Cornelius: its way out of date but [3] ill try to make mine public on http-texture soon
[11:51] Zha Ewry: and yes, +1 Morgaine
[11:52] Merov Linden: devs need to document the *intent* of the design
[11:52] Geo Meek: /thank you for using voice
[11:52] Gordon Wendt: Is the plan to allow external scripting languages still moving forward, and is that going to be community worked on as well?
[11:52] Dirk Talamasca: It's good stuff Philip Please come chat more often
[11:52] Aleric Inglewood: Of course not - I meant doxygen as tool and THEN add extensively documentation to every function and class :p
[11:52] SignpostMarv Martin: MUHAHAHAA
[11:52] Mm Alder: I still don't have an understanding of what the process for contributions to this new project will be.
[11:53] Merov Linden: I couldn't hear SignpostMarv
[11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Observation: one issue that comes up over and over is the speed of change for client-side stuff vs server-side.
[11:53] Mm Alder: Who is the gatekeeper?
[11:53] Prokofy Neva: The IRC channel is the Shadow Government of SL.
[11:54] Latif Khalifa: the criteria for becoming a comitter?
[11:54] Saijanai Kuhn: E.G> we can make all sorts of fun user interfaces for pupetteering, but without server support of some kind...
[11:54] Tofu Linden: sigourney weaver.
[11:54] Merov Linden: BDFL = Philip
[11:54] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:54] Aimee Trescothick: LOL
[11:54] Mm Alder: Who will do the code review?
[11:54] Rob Linden: Tofu is right
[11:54] Techwolf Lupindo: What kind of hardware is LL going throw at the open source effert? There is the svn repository. What about a test build reposrtiry where daly buids could be place for testers.
[11:54] Merov Linden: code reviewers == committers
[11:54] SignpostMarv Martin: Merov: assigning texture URLs asset IDs for use with llSetTexture(), firing off http_response with the request ID matching the asset ID so that error responses can be processed by LSL
[11:55] Lexa Ultsch: In open source projects the code is free, so you have thousand of code reviewers
[11:55] Mm Alder: Who decides when a feature gets promoted to the main viewer?
[11:55] CG Linden: Lupindo, you will get links to builds sent in the commits list
[11:55] Zha Ewry: You need both a gatekeeper, and a shared set of eyes on the reviews
[11:55] CG Linden: that's the BD part of BDFL :)
[11:55] Mm Alder: Who will incorporate changes from RC branches?
[11:55] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[11:55] Zha Ewry: Core commiters, and a way for non-core to submit to people who are trusted
[11:56] Prokofy Neva: The concept of the BDFL is what makes opensource ultimately a closed society. Proprietary code has the market instead which winds up being more free.
[11:56] Zha Ewry: wicked common in OpenSource
[11:56] Merov Linden: SignpostMarv: I *think* that'll be addressed by the "media layer" that will use http -texture to display on prim
[11:57] Merov Linden: so you should raise that question on @sldev and we'll relay to the relevant dev (I think sam's working on this)
[11:57] Prokofy Neva: What you have then is called "The Balkans" Philip
[11:57] Twisted Laws: filter by name in history would be nice :p
[11:57] Prokofy Neva: This is why you have people forking off opensim and then selling code and then being accused of violating licenses, look at OpenLife
[11:57] Cron Stardust: Twisted: JIRA it.
[11:57] Prokofy Neva: It's better just to say you need to have private property and sell it in the first place. Thank God you aren't opensoucing the server code.
[11:57] Techwolf Lupindo: Famious fork, xfree86 to sorg.
[11:58] Techwolf Lupindo: xorg
[11:58] Mm Alder: Forking is easy. Merging back together is hard.
[11:58] Latif Khalifa: OpenLife is not violating OpenSim license, its bsd, you can close source it and sell it if you want
[11:58] Prokofy Neva: Forked viewers on SL = griefers' viewers and viewers hacking things like rental boxes and making them appear paid for 90 days
[11:58] Zha Ewry: Managing trunk, is what normally makes or breaks most opensource projects
[11:58] Latif Khalifa: Zha +1
[11:59] Robin Cornelius: Prokofy, i resent that, i've got no greifer features in my viewer
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: ditto
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: @ Zha that is
[11:59] PM Sands: thanks for the info & conversation :)
[11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Adding to Mm's question on procedure: would the gatekeeper(s) do their work by reverting commits, or by giving approval for forthcoming commits, or both, or some other model?
[11:59] Fred Rookstown: Prok, then you need to improve security on the rental box instead of relying on the client
[11:59] Prokofy Neva: So what? You aren't the only set of hand son this "opensouce" thing, which is hacked and used to grief and steal
[11:59] Prokofy Neva: No, the Lindens need to block griefing and hacking viewers
[11:59] Paul Bumi: voice rawks
[11:59] Techwolf Lupindo: I got a few good snapshots of this meeting. Will be post processing them in a few minutes.
[11:59] Geo Meek: :-)
[11:59] Fred Rookstown: The Lindens can make a better mousetrap, but there's always a better mouse
[11:59] Prokofy Neva: You have a benevolent dictator; use it benevolently for good.
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: Thank you Philip, Rob etal
[12:00] Lexa Ultsch: Thks for the infos, Philip
[12:00] Rob Linden: thanks everyone!
[12:00] Zha Ewry: Thanks so much Phillip and all Lindens
[12:00] Latif Khalifa: thanks Philip
[12:00] Prokofy Neva: instead of telling everyone to go pre-anticipate eveyr hack and think of a gthousand security measures for every script
[12:00] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[12:00] Dirk Talamasca: Thanks Philip!!!
[12:00] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[12:00] Geo Meek: i well post thios
[12:00] Keex Rexroth: thank you :)
[12:00] SignpostMarv Martin: remembers the days of voice-enabled office hours
[12:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Reminder: Zero Linden will be talking about MMOX/OGP in about an hour
[12:00] Twisted Laws: thanks and voice was right way
[12:00] Catherine Cotton: How about building a decent mouse trap.
[12:00] Fred Rookstown: Never trust the client prokofy.
[12:00] Opensource Obscure: Thanks Philip, Rob [..]
[12:00] Mm Alder: See you on SLDev.
[12:00] SignpostMarv Martin: town hall meetings, i mean
[12:00] Dirk Talamasca: Yes please come back more ofyen.
[12:00] Zha Ewry: On the stats feed
[12:01] SignpostMarv Martin: Philip: google graphs API thing ?
[12:01] Zha Ewry: Put them on the stats feed, and fix the broken stats feeds
[12:01] Squirrel Wood: ya. track my terraforming speed :p
[12:01] Merov Linden: working on instrumenting to get the start time... as a beginning
[12:01] SignpostMarv Martin: ++Zha :-P
[12:01] Dirk Talamasca: Oh yes, please fix the stats feeds.. Jeeze
[12:01] Fred Rookstown: The quitting time on Linux takes forever
[12:01] Wyn Galbraith: LOL@Squirrel!
[12:02] Merov Linden: hurray for Robin :)
[12:02] Tofu Linden: yesss
[12:02] Dirk Talamasca: Robin! woot!
[12:02] Prokofy Neva: The reality is, you cannot sell opensource without some really visible improvement that comes from this process for the viewer -- and it has failed to appear yet
[12:02] Zha Ewry: Regression testing!
[12:02] Wyn Galbraith: Regression testing is a must!
[12:02] Prokofy Neva: so you need a Quick Impact Project for sure if you can think of one, otherwise, opensource is just a morass of competing forking egos
[12:02] Techwolf Lupindo: There is a patch on jira that has a command line option ot disable crashlogger so linux user can get core dumps.
[12:02] Wyn Galbraith: automated testing

Open Source Meeting/2009-04-07

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