Open Source Meeting/2009-08-20

[14:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Rob.
[14:00] Rob Linden: hi folks
[14:01] Aimee Trescothick: hi rob :)
[14:01] Psi Merlin: Hi
[14:01] Mealea Ying: Hya Rob, hows life?
[14:01] Rob Linden: no bad
[14:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: waves to Merov.
[14:01] Mealea Ying: grins!
[14:01] Mealea Ying: good
[14:02] Merov Linden: hi everybody
[14:02] Mealea Ying: Hya Merov, how are you??
[14:02] Techwolf Lupindo: HI merov, I see you found my GCC warning patches.
[14:02] Rob Linden: I just posted a patch to VWR-15229 for consideration
[14:02] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-15229:
[14:02] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-15229|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-15229]]:
[14:02] Merov Linden: Techwolf: yeap
[14:02] Merov Linden: We triaged this morning and I'm reviewing the patches
[14:03] Merov Linden: Will commit them soon I think
[14:03] Geneko Nemeth: Not just Boost, but llMozLib as well.
[14:03] Rob Linden: yup, the gcc 4.3/4.4 fixes are worth getting in
[14:04] Aimee Trescothick: +1 on those
[14:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: throws a nut at Squirrel.
[14:04] Rob Linden: Geneko: the patch is actually more general. it basically checks if you're trying to do a non-standalone build with a non MSVC 2005 compiler, and throws a fatal error
[14:04] Squirrel Wood: Hellos :)
[14:04] Questar Utu: waves.
[14:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rob, Merov, and all
[14:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 'ello.
[14:04] Rob Linden: the patch was done pretty much by rote on advice from Kitware
[14:04] Questar Utu: 'lo. :o
[14:05] Squirrel Wood: What about VS '08 ?
[14:05] Techwolf Lupindo: I didn't add any contrube due to there have been severl patches out there, but was incomplete in one way or another. So I did the fixes on my own and hopefully didn't step on anyone toes. Anther reson is hopefully they can past legil muster and can be accecpted.
[14:05] Geneko Nemeth: >_< fatal... now how do I compile stuff without knowing what I'm doing...
[14:05] Rob Linden: ...and hasn't even been tested
[14:05] Rob Linden: Techwolf, I'm confused about the legal muster comment
[14:07] Morgaine Dinova: While waiting for an answer from Tech, what's the situation regarding the new llMediaPlugin stuff and Snowglobe? How is this expected to go?
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: (If known :P)
[14:08] Rob Linden: I wouldn't worry about stepping on toes...please do give yourself credit on these things. Since you have a contributor agreement on file, there's no worry about patch size
[14:09] Merov Linden: Morgaine: I'll be meeting this afternoon with the dev lead on LLMedia to determine the best course of action for merging into Snowglobe
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Woohoo!!!!
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: everyone's very excited about it :-)
[14:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: hasn't actually heard about it. :o
[14:09] Aimee Trescothick: I think there were some GCC 4.2 fixes for Mac too, that would be nice to get in
[14:09] Merov Linden: Don't get too excited yet... :)
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[14:10] Mealea Ying: Im more hesitantly curious
[14:10] Morgaine Dinova: Potential is exciting, long before reality materializes :P
[14:11] Mealea Ying: heh..... there are acouple of sides to that
[14:11] Techwolf Lupindo: The one jira reveled there was a cmake hack that bypass the warnings. Being faimer with patching in GCC fixes to my ebuilds, I thought I give it a shot and fix the code instead of having those warning turn into real erros sometime in the future that can't be bypassed anymore. :-)
[14:11] Mealea Ying: for example yet another anoying as hell stack of plugins demanding to be upgraded all the time
[14:12] Opensource Obscure: all the time ?
[14:12] Mealea Ying: but then theres the idea of VRML in SL on a prim......
[14:13] Techwolf Lupindo: lol
[14:13] Techwolf Lupindo: Yes, just look at the mozilla plugin site.
[14:13] Merov Linden: Mealea: it seems to be the curse of plug-ins solutions (see FireFox) but is no plug-in better?
[14:13] Mealea Ying: that sounds usefull!
[14:13] Morgaine Dinova: Mealea: it doesn't have to be as bad as Firefox. A good implementation can both load and unload and reload plugins dynamically, I've done it myself with live module upgrade without taking down the app. The viewer doesn't have to be dropped to upgrade a plugin.
[14:13] Techwolf Lupindo: I have two plugins that havn't been upgraded to work on the current firefox.
[14:14] Mealea Ying: no...... its one of those toss up sorts of things, I kept flash stuff and ditched realaudio or what ever it was called
[14:14] Merov Linden: Morgaine: on which app did you do that?
[14:14] Opensource Obscure: i'd guess there are more firefox extensions than useful media types though
[14:14] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: my own. I have things on which "The sun never goes down".
[14:15] Rob Linden: having a lot of plugins nagging for upgrades seems like a good problem to have. not that it isn't a problem, but we're nowhere close to having it yet.
[14:15] Morgaine Dinova: It's just dlopen() with a spot of indirection, doesn't take a lot at all.
[14:15] Thickbrick Sleaford: i think it's more smilar to NS plugins, than firefox extentions - which has been stabel for years
[14:16] Morgaine Dinova: I've not actually looked at NS plugins, but I assume they use dlopen(2) on Unix-type systems.
[14:17] Rob Linden: well, the way we're dealing with plugins is to actually have them in separate processes
[14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Dlopen() is actually man 3 of course, just testing ya'all :P
[14:17] Thickbrick Sleaford: lol
[14:17] Geneko Nemeth: Would that still be plugins at all?
[14:18] Rob Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework_Technical_Overview
[14:18] Mealea Ying: actualy now that I think of it.... no, I dont want stuff like adobe and macromedia or real networks involved here..... hmmmmm.....
[14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: Whould be nice is there is a way to have a bitness netrel plugin API. This would avoicd "Do I need the 32 bit or 64 big plugin for this client"
[14:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ewww.
[14:18] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, LL's approach is much nicer than Firefox's, with everything in separate processes.
[14:19] Geneko Nemeth: And then people would ask for plugins that run on 9-bit byte architectures!
[14:19] Rob Linden: the idea is similar to what Google is doing for Chrome. keeping the plugins in separate processes means the viewer doesn't get taken down by a buggy plugin
[14:19] Morgaine Dinova: nods
[14:19] Mealea Ying: I think people just like when things work and done ask for stuff endlessly
[14:19] Techwolf Lupindo: Well, the plug-ins might require to be 64bit due to OS, but they shojld be able to be use with the LL 32 bit bianary clietn.
[14:20] Morgaine Dinova: And communication is through TCP sockets, which is very portable and provides great isolation, love that.
[14:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: If it runs with a 32-bit client, it shouldn't really cause an issue (I hope, anyway).
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: The vovix voice client does that.
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: BUT
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: There is some real problems with the TCP link due to the network layer in SL is not the best.
[14:21] Morgaine Dinova: Sure, being separate processes communicating via TCP sockets means you can mix'n'match 32 and 64-bit freely.
[14:21] Morgaine Dinova: And I see that you use shared memory to accelerate the comms if needed, that's great
[14:22] Morgaine Dinova: But slightly dangerous. Avoid when high speed not needed.
[14:22] Techwolf Lupindo: And can have decated seperate computer if need be. :-) yes, lets go for OverKill. :-)
[14:22] Merov Linden: likes this plugin architecture as well
[14:23] Morgaine Dinova: Ultimately, the usefulness is going to be limited not by the plugins, but by the handlers inside the viewer.
[14:23] Squirrel Wood: plug-ins must run on separate machines, all linked together through a HUB for maximum traffic ;)
[14:23] Merov Linden: takes 2 for a BRB
[14:23] Rob Linden: anyway, we'll see if a merge with Snowglobe will be feasible. The tricky part is going to be Linux support. We've got the code for that, but it's mixed in with other code we're not ready to release yet. we'll have to figure out a plan for teasing that out to get the Linux support out there.
[14:23] Aimee Trescothick: looks around wondering which 2 Merov took
[14:24] Morgaine Dinova: Linux support tricky? Linux loves processes and sockets ^_^
[14:24] Rob Linden: heh
[14:24] Rob Linden: Morgaine: the problem is with the Linux specific implementations (e.g. GStreamer ported to this new interface)
[14:24] Thickbrick Sleaford: there's a signifact difference between mac os and linux for the plugins?
[14:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh
[14:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Linux has good schedulers.
[14:25] Techwolf Lupindo: I think MAC has the best, I don't know of any laptop that can do 16 movies trailers at the same time smootly other then a macbook.
[14:25] Rob Linden: if we merge what's currently published into Snowglobe now, Snowglobe LInux will lose all support for streaming media, for example
[14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: ah
[14:26] Rob Linden: ...since what we've done is replaced some existing systems with implementations using the new API
[14:26] Techwolf Lupindo: Arg...I tried to video, the site just could not handle that fact that GStreamer does handle .mp4 and the site dumped me in google.com
[14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Is the relevant SVN branch visible to SLdev so people can look at the issues?
[14:27] Rob Linden: Morgaine, not the branch with the Linux work already done. here's what's available:
[14:27] Aimee Trescothick: heh, the video with the 16 streams running was on my Mac Pro, so maybe a little unfair :D
[14:28] Rob Linden: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/branches/2009/plugin-api/
[14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Tech: yeah, there's an issue with which codecs gstreamer supports in the viewer under Linux. H.264 is fine as an envelope, but the proprietary Sorensen codec that everyone uses is a killer.
[14:28] Mealea Ying: chucks her 2 core PC at AImee
[14:28] Aimee Trescothick: aww
[14:29] Mealea Ying: hehehehe
[14:29] Rob Linden: (or of course https://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/2009/plugin-api/ if you want to run svn to snarf it)
[14:29] Aimee Trescothick: I could rent out the unused cores when I'm in SL :D
[14:29] Mealea Ying: dont worry, its micro, and soft
[14:29] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: link the video, for those who haven't seen it :-)
[14:29] Questar Utu: blinks. o.o
[14:29] Mealea Ying: like nerf bb's only less fun
[14:29] Aimee Trescothick: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2009/08/open-forum-on-ll-api.html
[14:29] Aimee Trescothick: heh, it made NWN, wondered why it was getting so many hits lol
[14:30] Mealea Ying: Questar, where is your camera most of the time? can you see your self while walking around?
[14:30] Techwolf Lupindo: I hope the API is OS netrul. Linux, MAC, and Windows should have equell acces.
[14:30] Questar Utu: Yeah. I made a script using llSetCameraParameters or whichever it is to fix it to just behind my av'.
[14:31] Mealea Ying: neat!
[14:31] Rob Linden: Techwolf: the API is totally OS neutral. the plugins themselves are possibly another story
[14:32] Rob Linden: it's conceivable there will be plugins for some platforms and not others, due to differing support for the media type in question
[14:33] Rob Linden: let's move onto some other topics here
[14:34] Rob Linden: is there anything urgent in this list: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&mode=hide&sorter/order=DESC&sorter/field=priority&resolution=-1&pid=10100&fixfor=-1
[14:34] Techwolf Lupindo: lol "I like this commnet on the blog: "...will an ad-blocker be the next requested feature after any media plug-ins start appearing?"
[14:35] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: SNOW-165 - I wonder if that's regarding small prims?
[14:35] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-165:
[14:35] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-165|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-165]]:
[14:35] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: An example - Questar just next to me.
[14:35] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Snowglobe won't render his prims at a certain distance.
[14:36] Mealea Ying: Techwolf: I like that too!
[14:37] Mealea Ying: I cant see him from here and Im in Emerald
[14:37] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: He's tiny.
[14:37] Mealea Ying: I can zoom in and see him though
[14:37] Mealea Ying: I know, its awesome
[14:37] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Strange, I can see him if i zoom out but on Snowglobe, I have to zoom in very close for his prims to rez.
[14:37] Trinity Coulter: may I make a point from a non-technical point of view? you all seem so excited about these technical additions, and they sound like they can do a lot... but forgive me for asking something maybe dense.... but is any of this really what the regular users have been asking for? the non-techy people?
[14:38] Geneko Nemeth: Have the regular users actually asked for anything other than bug fixes?
[14:38] Trinity Coulter: yes, Geneko
[14:38] Questar Utu: Lots of bugs to fix, so far as I know [which isn't really that much.]
[14:39] Trinity Coulter: sits to wait for the answers :)
[14:39] Rob Linden: Trinity: this meeting is about working with developers, most of which aren't being paid to be here, so I think we need to cut everyone a little slack for being interested in the developer features
[14:40] Rob Linden: moreover, the features that interest developers enable features that ultimately interest everyone. the media API stuff, for example, is going to enable a lot more inworld interaction, and generally should make the viewer more stable
[14:40] Aimee Trescothick: this will allow outside developers to and media features more easily, freeing up Lindens that may otherwise be working on it to do other things also
[14:40] Trinity Coulter: oh I didn't mean to say anything against new features, but its like making someone a pizza when they don't like pizza and they would prefer lasagne
[14:40] Rob Linden: (e.g. right now, when the inworld browser crashes, it takes down the whole viewer)
[14:40] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Eep?
[14:40] Aimee Trescothick: *to add
[14:41] Mealea Ying: um... I hate to point this out, but it does that with sound, media and voice all turned off....
[14:42] Rob Linden: in the new plugin model, when the inworld browser crashes, the only thing that's affected is the prim that the browser was assoicated with
[14:42] Mealea Ying: ok...
[14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: Trinity, one should never be force to choose between pizza and lasagna
[14:42] Mealea Ying: so....... crashed prims? am I totaly confused here?
[14:43] Thickbrick Sleaford: grey, probably
[14:43] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I'm guessing the prim would just go...what Thickbrick said. :)
[14:43] Merov Linden: also a plugin architecture is a way to empower 3rd party developers to add functionalities to the viewer
[14:43] kimmie Loveless: I have a question about the media API, will it be possible for scripts to send a media plugin data that could be used to make procedural textures without having to tell it to look for a different media url?
[14:43] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: there are a *lot* of Open Source developers in the SL/Opensim viewer ecosystem. A really good idea is bound to find support from one or more of them, so I think your problem might be attracting their attention with a really good Jira. That said, the community devs aren't paid, as Rob explained.
[14:44] Rob Linden: kimmie, yeah, that ultimately where this all is heading
[14:45] kimmie Loveless: good, will make my current projects more responsice after retrotiting them then :)
[14:46] Thickbrick Sleaford: is there a timetable for the server-side changes for the LLMedia stuff?
[14:47] Rob Linden: Thickbrick: I don't think there's anything we can talk about here, other than to say that we're not terribly interested in releasing viewer features that don't have server support ;-)
[14:47] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh, ok
[14:47] Morgaine Dinova: A related question was raised by our Sai on SLdev ... making the source of the URL that ends up used by the media plugin more flexible Hard question though.
[14:48] Rob Linden: Morgaine, if I understood Sai's question correctly, he was asking about whether localhost could be supported, for example
[14:48] Morgaine Dinova: Sai only referred to localhost, but the question is more generic ... providing more source for the URL, and not coupling the source to land ownership.
[14:49] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, that's true Rob. Sai asked a limited question.
[14:49] Morgaine Dinova: But it's a more general topic :P
[14:49] Rob Linden: can you repeat the part of the question you're interested in addressing?
[14:50] Morgaine Dinova: Sure. It's mechanisms for generating the URL which ends up triggering things, for example triggering video playback in a plugin. The problem from Sai's PoV (and more generally) is that the source of the URL can only come from land, which implies ownership.
[14:50] Rob Linden: I think, in general, we're going to have to keep in mind many of the same rules that web pages have about transclusion. There's pretty severe security implications about just letting anything through
[14:51] Morgaine Dinova: There are, yes.
[14:51] Thickbrick Sleaford: but making exceptions for huds (as opposed to random rezzed objects) will be really useful
[14:52] Thickbrick Sleaford: or possibly owned objects
[14:52] Morgaine Dinova: However, if the source of a media URL is a script within the user's attachments, then the security issues are far more tractable.
[14:52] Rob Linden: this is where I'm a little out of my depth on the current thinking. in general, we want to provide more flexibility, but we're trying to be mindful of the security risks. we know it's a pain that URLs are tied to parcels
[14:52] Morgaine Dinova: Not an easy issue, admittedly
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: nods
[14:53] Mealea Ying: so.... wait, these plugins will only be handaling land based media? So I cant make a prim and texture it wiuth a flash anamation that is sitting on a webserver on the computer Im sitting at now?
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Mealea: currently, yeah. Unless you run a gridproxy in front and inject URLs.
[14:54] Rob Linden: Mealea: I'm not sure how quickly we're planning on moving to a more flexible model than that. there may actually be more information about that in the online documentation
[14:54] Morgaine Dinova: Early days. But it's a good time to be talking about potential designs.
[14:55] Rob Linden: well, anyway, we're coming up on the end of our time. anything else we need to cover here?
[14:55] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4273 caught my eye
[14:55] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4273|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4273]]:
[14:55] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: mentioned the prim disappearing but didn't really get an answer.
[14:56] Morgaine Dinova: Is a new official Snowglobe release coming upo soon? I'd love the full Fast timers fix to be in it.
[14:56] Rob Linden: Sahkolahaa: I'm not sure where to go with that. Could you comment on SNOW-165?
[14:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Sure - I'll post some screen shots of what I think may be it too.
[14:56] Robin Cornelius: Morgaine, still not tied the loose ends on that
[14:57] Mealea Ying: Ardy that sounds cool, and someone made a hud that does that, I saw it at SL6B
[14:57] Rob Linden: Morgaine: we're tentatively shooting for the end of September on a next release, but we still need to nail down whether the new media API is in
[14:57] Ardy Lay: Seems that HUD was using a security hole that got plugged.
[14:57] Morgaine Dinova: Robin: works in Techwolf's SVN Snowglobe now.
[14:57] Thickbrick Sleaford: Sahkilihaa, are the prims in question semi-transparent or have an alpha texture?
[14:57] Mealea Ying: oh forchrist sake
[14:57] Techwolf Lupindo: I revied that patch.
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: looks for the jira number...
[14:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Que - they have an alpha texture, don't they?
[14:58] Questar Utu: Only on certain faces.
[14:58] Mealea Ying: Thanks Ardy, I dident know that
[14:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah, ok.
[14:58] Questar Utu: Others are solid textures 95% of the time.
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: OH, now I rejember, Rob, you commented on there to commmiet what ever patch is better.
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: I made a commnet on what patch was better for the fast timer fix.
[14:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Like I said, I'll grab some snapshots later tonight before going off of how Questar disappears after a certain distance.
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: yea we need to use monotomic timers and do it properly
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: the monotomic timer is syncronsied when the kernel boots across cores and is not effected by CPU speed/scaling etc
[15:00] Robin Cornelius: its not a big amount of work, but i've had a few more important things recently
[15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: The assembily code that was use is the TRC(?) and that is unreiable.
[15:00] Rob Linden: which issue number are you talking about, Techwolf and Robin? I remember the issue generally, but some of the specifics are fuzzy
[15:00] Robin Cornelius: yes that is bad to do that the TRC is not syncronised and not even sure to run at the same speed on different cores
[15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: SNOW-108
[15:00] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-108:
[15:00] [[User:JIRA-helper:[#SNOW-108 undefined|JIRA-helper:[#SNOW-108 undefined]]:
[15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: I found the jira number finially
[15:01] Robin Cornelius: its alwaws wrong to hit the harware directly, you should use the operating system API
[15:02] Robin Cornelius: anyway i got distracted by openjpeg this week
[15:02] Rob Linden: cool...yeah, that's right. we looked over the approaches, and it all seems fine. whatever you all like the most
[15:02] Robin Cornelius: at least i'm not transparent anymore
[15:02] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[15:02] Mealea Ying: yes you are
[15:02] Rob Linden: Robin: are the core devs on OpenJPEG back on email?
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: I'm not seeing my self as transparent and my offline tests all pass now
[15:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Yep, switching form "__asm__ volatile (".byte 0x0f, 0x31" : "=A" (x));
" to gettimeofday seem to have fixed the issue on linux for now.
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: yes that will work but its not the best solution
[15:03] Techwolf Lupindo: nodws
[15:03] Mealea Ying: I zoomed in on you and that fixed you
[15:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Buts is better then not working at all. hheheeh
[15:03] Morgaine Dinova: Robin: you're fully rezzed to me on Snow 1.1.2 / Linux 32
[15:04] kimmie Loveless: speaking of transparent, when might we expect alpha masking avatar skins to be availible? Content was broken with the excuse that masking was coming soon to provide the same and better functionality.
[15:04] Robin Cornelius: Rob, no word from openjpeg decs
[15:04] Robin Cornelius: but the fix is pushed to debian/meerkat/libomv etc
[15:04] Robin Cornelius: devs
[15:04] Robin Cornelius: eeek
[15:05] Rob Linden: is it going to be necessary to fork OpenJPEG, and if so,who would lead that project?
[15:05] Techwolf Lupindo: Yes, a linden devoloper..um...got a attude and broke content before the switchover.
[15:05] Robin Cornelius: not exactly fork, but may be track the debian version, which is upstream + patches for example
[15:05] Mealea Ying: wow
[15:06] Techwolf Lupindo: I;'me heading over toe beta grid.
[15:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you. :o
[15:06] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Tech
[15:06] Questar Utu: waves.
[15:06] Mealea Ying: Bye FuzzBelly!
[15:06] Rob Linden: ok...well, topic for another day I guess.
[15:07] Rob Linden: thanks everyone for coming!
[15:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: see you next week, Rob.
[15:07] Aimee Trescothick: thanks Rob :)
[15:07] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Rob -)
[15:07] Mealea Ying: thanks for having us
[15:07] Mealea Ying: have fun Rob!
[15:07] Rob Linden: have a good rest of your week! see ya!
[15:07] Mealea Ying: Bye everyone!
[15:07] Geneko Nemeth: Off to UXIG meeting then.
[15:07] Aimee Trescothick: yup
[15:07] Thickbrick Sleaford: see you everybody
[15:07] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, UXIG meeting

Open Source Meeting/2009-08-20

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