User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 15

[13:02] Zha Ewry: Yikes! Tall Linden!
[13:02] Latif Khalifa: hi :)
[13:02] Tammy Nowotny: I wd use the Ryal Wave anim Aki gave me, but it wd probably be overriden by the sit pose
[13:02] FWord Utorid: prospero eats the other lindens and absorbs their mass to become a giant
[13:02] Dante Quan: cant see Prospero
[13:02] Dante Quan: a giant ball of gas?
[13:02] Latif Khalifa: sort of like a black hole? ;)
[13:02] Zha Ewry: Hmm.
[13:02] Dante Quan: last time I was in SL....god, the Ruth's...
[13:02] Zha Ewry: Says sceripts are on
[13:03] Aki Shichiroji: :P
[13:03] Zha Ewry: makes her saving throw
[13:03] Zha Ewry: There we go
[13:03] Tammy Nowotny: what I find funny is when you rezz as a ghost... and after a while... you turn into good ol' Ruth.
[13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, all AW Gropuies transcripts: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts
[13:03] Dante Quan: I thought Ruth had gone completely?
[13:04] Dante Quan: Saij, what would we do without you?
[13:04] Zha Ewry: Including tis mornings,c omplete with Latha and Goldie's very nice discussion
[13:04] Latif Khalifa: fword, all your bood will get into your brain, not good :P
[13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: have much less spam to deal with?
[13:04] Tammy Nowotny: not yet, no.
[13:04] FWord Utorid: latif, where is all of my blood supposed to go?
[13:04] Arawn Spitteler: They're trying out new forms of Ruth; it's something about the terms of service prohibiting anything potentially illegal.
[13:04] Dante Quan: am I correct in seeing Miss Utorid being upside down?
[13:05] Zero Linden: there's "Babe Ruth"
[13:05] FWord Utorid: I am right side up, it's the grid that is upside down.
[13:05] Latif Khalifa: Dante, yes, to increase the blooflow into her brain ;)
[13:05] FWord Utorid: the lindens did it wrong
[13:05] Zha Ewry: Depends on the frame of reference ou're in
[13:05] FWord Utorid: tess, press the right side up button please
[13:05] Zero Linden: the "book of Ruth"
[13:05] Latif Khalifa: haha
[13:05] Zero Linden: "ruth Ruth" - a band
[13:05] Dante Quan: who wrote it, I wonder?
[13:05] FWord Utorid: sings... i come from a land down under... where beer does flow and men chunder
[13:06] BlueWall Slade: will SL br Ruthles
[13:06] Gareth Ellison: i wonder what i walked in on here.....
[13:06] Dante Quan: gags FW
[13:06] Zero Linden: and, my favorite, "Princess Ruth" -- of Hawaii
[13:06] Gareth Ellison: wleomce home zero
[13:06] Dahlia Trimble: ewwwww chunder
[13:06] Aimee Trescothick: has a page up button but no grid up
[13:06] Tao Takashi: Hello
[13:06] Gareth Ellison: bet u missed the tyops
[13:06] FWord Utorid: dahlia, it's a song
[13:06] Aimee Trescothick: does LL have custom keyboards then?
[13:06] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:06] Zero Linden: often looks for that "Grid Up" button....
[13:06] Whump Linden: Just rotate your monitor, Zero.
[13:06] Aimee Trescothick: they definitely have a grid down button
[13:06] Dante Quan: the Grid Down button is stuck down...
[13:06] Zha Ewry: wants zero away freom the "Grid down button"
[13:07] Zero Linden: oh - sorry there....Aimee
[13:07] Gareth Ellison: so.... any serious t alk today? or shouldi get naked?
[13:07] Aimee Trescothick: it's ok, I'm used to it :D
[13:07] Gareth Ellison: (please forgive the lag-induced typos)
[13:07] Zero Linden: well all
[13:07] Dante Quan: This a normal meeting, then? :p
[13:07] Zero Linden: I'm taking orders for the agenda....
[13:07] Gareth Ellison: gridnauts, beta testing etc
[13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: OGP mailing list...
[13:07] FWord Utorid: zero, i would like a large diet coke, and a cheeseburger.
[13:07] Dante Quan: oh good, one coffee for me, please, Zero...
[13:08] Zha Ewry: Clairity on region /agent domion non coupling
[13:08] Arawn Spitteler: starts with a doughnut
[13:08] Dahlia Trimble: and fries
[13:08] Zero Linden: I really should have a coffee maker here
[13:08] Tess Linden: I missed the trust discussion at the AWG this morning
[13:08] Gareth Ellison: oh, i'll take a can of red bull and a burger
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15
[13:08] Gareth Ellison: and beta testing news
[13:09] FWord Utorid: ok you made me hungry. now. afk while you discuss how i won't have to worry about people stealing my shape on other grids.
[13:09] Tammy Nowotny: a clam strip basket and a large ice tea with lemon please
[13:09] Whump Linden: Zero, I can take questions about the beta.
[13:09] Zero Linden: Okay - I've got
[13:09] Zero Linden: 1) Beta plans
[13:10] Zero Linden: 2) region and agent domains and non-coupling
[13:10] Tammy Nowotny: OK, I have a question: will the other grids have the same parametsr for shapes... or can there be different avi models
[13:10] Aramis Tolsen: Saijanai group invite please
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: 3) OGP mailing list
[13:10] Tammy Nowotny: FWord broiught that to midn
[13:11] Aramis Tolsen: accepted your inventory offer.
[13:11] Tao Takashi: I just wanted to note that I halfway through implemented an agent domain and will now try to hook it up to that patched opensim
[13:11] Gareth Ellison: i hope 3 isn't gridnauts
[13:11] Tao Takashi: I second the mailing list
[13:11] Zero Linden: we've discussed avi models before - and I think left it - all same for now but we'll put a type on 'em and in the future we can content negotiate
[13:12] FWord Utorid: fix the thighs first :P
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: there's always the H-Anim avatar type used by MPEG-4
[13:12] Gareth Ellison: if 3 is gridnauts, then there's a horrible lack of posts
[13:12] Pink Clown: Nose: I'm thumbing my nose at Cancer
[13:12] Tao Takashi: I might also have something about where to use a region domain and where to use a region which we quickly discussed at some point but I will first write it down I think
[13:12] Gareth Ellison: the discussion can be summarised as "is anyone here?"
[13:12] Pink Clown: Nose: I'm thumbing my nose at Cancer
[13:13] Whump Linden: Gareth, the beta does not start until the 21st, which is why the list has been quiet thus far.
[13:13] Zero Linden: oooooookay then
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: 212st or 31st?
[13:13] Tao Takashi: I did not even know about this list ;-)
[13:13] Zero Linden: 1) Da Beta
[13:13] Tess Linden: 31st right Whump?
[13:14] FWord Utorid: is the only one that knows about the porn on the ceiling
[13:14] Gareth Ellison: porn?
[13:14] Gareth Ellison: offtopic....
[13:15] Whump Linden: Okay, 31st is the start of the beta, excuse the previous typo.
[13:15] Gareth Ellison: 31st, before then is it a case of sit and wait or will anything be happening before then?
[13:15] Whump Linden: The beta is intended for developers who want to work on teleport interop.
[13:15] Gareth Ellison: i.e is 31st "go live time!" or "start coding!" time
[13:16] Gareth Ellison: should i order my tons of russian nootropics now or on the 31st?
[13:16] Tao Takashi: I hope we can TP around in opensim before the 31st ;-)
[13:16] Whump Linden: Gareth, it's when we will open our Agent Domain for the beta.
[13:16] Tao Takashi: well, at least login
[13:16] Dahlia Trimble: seems the term "beta" may be a misnomer?
[13:16] Tao Takashi: I think it is
[13:16] Whump Linden: To participate, please sign up for the mailing list, https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts.
[13:17] Gareth Ellison: so, russian nootropics to order now
[13:17] Tao Takashi: No such list gridnauts.
[13:17] Tao Takashi: ah that period
[13:17] Latif Khalifa: yeah, work better without it ;)
[13:17] Zero Linden: It's on a beta grid.... it's not quite prime-time.... what else would you call it?
[13:17] Whump Linden: chat subsumed the period into the link?
[13:17] JayR Cela: hmmmm / dont mean to rain on your parade but i hear google is about to destroy LL
[13:17] Tao Takashi: developer sandbox ;-)
[13:18] Aimee Trescothick: ROFL
[13:18] Dahlia Trimble: testbed?
[13:18] Dante Quan: pardon?!
[13:18] Aramis Tolsen: with vivaty? lol
[13:18] JayR Cela: yeppers
[13:18] Tammy Nowotny: (LIvely is supposedly not that lively, JayR.)
[13:18] Zero Linden: JayR - I'd be happy to put Google's Lively on the agenda --- once we've all had some to time to actually see an duse it
[13:18] Latha Serevi: shush about Lively please, the grownups are talking.
[13:19] Whump Linden: So Saijanai, does that answer your question 3?
[13:19] Aimee Trescothick: and once it actually works for more than half their users
[13:19] Tao Takashi: depends on what the scope of that list is
[13:19] Gareth Ellison: from what i hear google lively is best summarised as IMVU on a webpage
[13:19] Zero Linden: But, let's not usurp ValleyWag here... they do a fine job of specualtive headlining
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: I believe we were more concerned with the details of OGP itself instead of the beta
[13:19] Tao Takashi: Whump: I would like to have some forum where all the participants can discuss things like here. If that's the goal of gridnauts, then ok
[13:20] Whump Linden: Tao, the list is intended for the beta program, not general discussion.
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: if grid naughts will address protocols and coding, then yeah, that's what we need at this point
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: pyogp lacks TP code
[13:20] Tao Takashi: ok, then I would like to propose a list for general OGP discussion :)
[13:21] FWord Utorid: lively is an excellent introduction to the notion of a virtual world and one that shouldn't be dismissed as a doorway to other things.
[13:21] FWord Utorid: but there's a constituency in SL and those people aren't going to stop liking sl ;)
[13:21] Tao Takashi: lively will have it's place. I hope LL convinces Google to do interop :)
[13:21] Tao Takashi: where in fact Google is not too bad in doing interop stuff
[13:21] Zero Linden: Tao - what's wrong with SLDEV?
[13:21] Gareth Ellison: we need a group for OGP, a group for PyOGP, ogp-cs, libogp (c), libogp++, jOGP, erl-ogp, OGP for scheme.......
[13:21] Tao Takashi: it's too cluttered IMHO
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: wants LIvely-style avatars in SL, as well as realXtend, etc
[13:21] Zero Linden: just put [OGP
[13:21] Whump Linden: Tao, maybe I'm missunderstanding what you meant by general OGP.
[13:22] Tao Takashi: I don't really like the idea of doing everything on one list
[13:22] Whump Linden: If it's about the protocol, then gridnauts is probably the right place.
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: well, at this poitn there are 2 sets of protocols: (3?): Login, Rez/derez_avatar
[13:22] FWord Utorid: i don't like the idea of having 50 lists and groups where everyone talks about the same thing anyway
[13:22] Tao Takashi: Whump: I will simply post on gridnauts then and will see who complains ;-)
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: we have working code for login and rez, but not for TP within pyogp
[13:22] Zero Linden: right - I'm for a small number of rationally divided lists
[13:22] Whump Linden: Tao, that works for me.
[13:23] Zero Linden: Sounds fine with me, too, Tao
[13:23] Tao Takashi: ok, then we have that list
[13:23] Zero Linden: okay - other Beta questions for Whump?
[13:23] FWord Utorid: just turn it on please
[13:23] BlueWall Slade: gridnaughts IRC or no?
[13:23] BlueWall Slade: would it be useful?
[13:24] FWord Utorid: could be, or could be spammy
[13:24] Zero Linden: I suspect it will be useful once the system is live
[13:24] Zero Linden: so, let's hold off until then
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess, in the lkong run, we need a flowchart or some other detailed diagram for TP ala: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OGP_Draft_Login
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: but we can discuss that on the gridnaught list
[13:24] Zero Linden: Okay
[13:24] Latha Serevi: (let's try to spel it -nauts, like explorers, not with a "gh" like nothings.
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: ok
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: lol
[13:25] Zero Linden: 2) Agent Domain, Region Domain, Oh my
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: gridruths
[13:25] Whump Linden: brb
[13:25] Zero Linden: or rather - why these two must not always be co-mingled
[13:25] Tao Takashi: seems, there already is a gridnauts channel ;-)
[13:25] Zero Linden: Zha?
[13:25] Dahlia Trimble: ruthnaughts?
[13:25] Zha Ewry: yes?
[13:25] Zero Linden: did you have an intro to this topic?
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Sure
[13:26] Tao Takashi: actually I might have a question for Zha later about the patch
[13:26] Zha Ewry: One thing which sometimes seems to be happening, is that an assumption is creeping into discussion
[13:26] Zha Ewry: that we have a grid defined by a pair of agent and region domains
[13:27] Zha Ewry: and I think, for a rather large pile of reasons that's wrong.
[13:27] Tao Takashi: noticed that, too
[13:27] Zha Ewry: I think, prety seirusly, that the model is probably closer to
[13:27] Prospero Linden: agrees that that is a bad assumption. The term "grid" should fall out of use.
[13:27] Zha Ewry: We have region domains, we have agent domains, and some of them will compsose into useful systems, some of which may be called "grids"
[13:27] Zha Ewry: (Yeah, I'd be very happy without grid)
[13:28] Zero Linden: Well - As much as I'd love to kill the term "grid" - I think it is going to be the term my mother ends up saying:::
[13:28] Zha Ewry: I know
[13:28] Lars Donardson: don't use the worda "fall or out" Prospero..it scares the stuffing out of me if you so :D
[13:28] Zha Ewry: But. it's a techno blur
[13:28] Zha Ewry: So...
[13:28] Zero Linden: "I was browsing the Web the other day and came to this great page on a site about ...."
[13:28] Gulliver Linden: fwiw, i know there are some people who conceptualize this as "regions" and "agent domains", which are on "The Grid"
[13:28] Zha Ewry: In fact, what I'd like to see is us be very clear..
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: zero - an agent domain or a region domain probably runs on top of a grid as in a grid of computers
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: grid computing et al
[13:29] Zero Linden: "I was roaming the metaverse the other day and came to this great region in a gird for ..."
[13:29] Gareth Ellison: i think i must be your mother zero, as i say not just grid but supergrid
[13:29] Zha Ewry: that we will have lots of the parts
[13:29] Zha Ewry: that the early going wil offten be clustered in a set of regions and agent domain, but that the pattern is much more about
[13:29] Zha Ewry: clustering stuff by use, and by service
[13:29] Zha Ewry: and in particular
[13:29] Zero Linden: But the news coverage for last week's announcement made it clear that we need to start socializing some agreed upon common terms
[13:29] Zha Ewry: Not one to one
[13:30] Gulliver Linden: that kind of makes sense to me, espicially since OGP is "Open Grid Protocol".
[13:30] Prospero Linden: heh
[13:30] Prospero Linden: OMP
[13:30] Gareth Ellison: give that gulliver an orange
[13:30] Zha Ewry: I'd actually expct to see the follwoing cases
[13:30] Gulliver Linden: users of the "The Web" just think of "The Web" as One Big Thing.
[13:30] Zha Ewry: agent domains servicing motultiple regoin domains
[13:30] Gareth Ellison: just don't you dare name it GMMP or use port 4183 ;)
[13:30] Zero Linden: reporters used "metaverses", "grids", "worlds", "world servers" and "platforms"
[13:30] Zha Ewry: Agent domains paired with region domains
[13:30] Zha Ewry: and.. quite posisbly
[13:31] Gulliver Linden: they don't really think about domains, in the "administrative control" sense.
[13:31] Prospero Linden: fully expects Linden to have multiple agent and multiple region domains with some degree of complicated mixing between what is related to what.
[13:31] Zha Ewry: regiondomains workign with several agent domains
[13:31] Zha Ewry: Exactly Propsero
[13:31] Tammy Nowotny: I think the term "grid" has stuck... even though not all worlds will be rectangular like opurs
[13:31] FWord Utorid: i want one grid where time goes faster and one where time goes slower, and the ability to travel between them
[13:31] Gareth Ellison: i like to think of grid as in "grid computing"
[13:31] Zha Ewry: In fact, I really expect it grows out to be sets of clustered web services permitting tasks to be done, and lots of factoring aroudn that
[13:32] Gareth Ellison: grid services on the backend are akin to the head node in traditional clusters in various ways
[13:32] Zha Ewry: In any case, I tink we need to nip the agent/regoin pairing in the bud
[13:32] Zero Linden: I think the main point I'd like us to keep afore is that not all collections of regions will need to have an agent domain at all
[13:32] Zha Ewry: People will make all sorts of horrible simplifyin assumptions which will be really wrong down the road
[13:32] Dahlia Trimble: or single independant regions?
[13:33] Prospero Linden: Yeah, I was sort of implying that the term "grid" should fall out of use by this group....
[13:33] Zha Ewry: ?me eyes Propspero's stcick nervously
[13:33] Zero Linden: I think technically, in our documents, "grid" is far too mushy a term
[13:33] Zero Linden: and so, yes, this group shouldn't use it
[13:33] Gulliver Linden: Prospero... why do you say that, given the protocol name?
[13:33] FWord Utorid: ok. from now on, yall are part of this here plantation
[13:33] Prospero Linden: Gulliver : OMP :)
[13:33] Zha Ewry: Yes, I think "Joe's Garage" region may not want or need an agent domain
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: M?
[13:33] FWord Utorid: open Yonder Protocol
[13:33] Prospero Linden: Metaverse
[13:33] Gulliver Linden: OMP?
[13:34] Zha Ewry: he's welcome to have one
[13:34] Zha Ewry: But. he'll have to get it trusted by other people and all sorts of pain
[13:34] Zero Linden: but if we think that casually, "Grid" primarilly referes to a region domain, or perhaps a set of region domains (much like "web site" might really refer to a collection of serves and related domain names)
[13:34] Gulliver Linden: did it change in my absense? or is that a topic of discussion?
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates PyOMP
[13:34] Prospero Linden: I'm just pushing it right now
[13:34] Zero Linden: and possibly (but not always) an agent domain, then we'll be okay
[13:34] Rex Cronon: Grid sounds ok
[13:34] Prospero Linden: Nobody else has indicated the like the idea :)
[13:34] FWord Utorid: people will never ever ever ever learn to speak one language
[13:34] Zha Ewry: I do
[13:35] FWord Utorid: prospero, make a translator hud that turns all instants of grid to metaverse
[13:35] Latha Serevi: Zha, it would be of interest to make a good list of "services of a full SL style knitted-together-grid-thing". Then, a couple of other sets that Joes Garage might use instead.
[13:35] FWord Utorid: *instances
[13:35] Zha Ewry: But, I also accept pragmatically, that grid is likely to stick
[13:35] Gareth Ellison: note: amazon EC2 (grid computing) often publically talk about "on the grid" and "outside the grid"
[13:35] Zha Ewry: Very much so Latah
[13:35] Zha Ewry: *latha
[13:35] Gareth Ellison: grid == big pile of computers used together
[13:35] Prospero Linden: Yeah, but there grid is different from the kind of "grid" we're vaguely talking about here.
[13:35] Prospero Linden: And, then, in Paritcle Physics, they have "The Grid" with a capital G.
[13:35] Zero Linden: So - the key for me is ensuring that we don't imply, or fall into, the case where to visit a set of regios you need an avatar account on some associated agent domain
[13:35] FWord Utorid: i will use the terms yonder and plantation from now on
[13:36] Gulliver Linden: people do fine with homonyms
[13:36] Dahlia Trimble: grid = means of extortion by power companies
[13:36] Gareth Ellison: tell me, does grid on SL include the space server and data servers?
[13:36] Aimee Trescothick: when we get the spellchecker integrated into the client we can make it autocorrect
[13:36] Gareth Ellison: and the asset servers?
[13:36] Zero Linden: If we think "agents go with regions" - then vistiing another grid will alawys me being a tourist
[13:36] Zha Ewry: which may be very misleading
[13:36] Zero Linden: we want avatars to be citizens of the metaverse, not of individual grids
[13:36] Gareth Ellison: the term grid on SL refers not just to geography but "the pile of servers that run to provide a service"
[13:36] FWord Utorid: ok. so when do we connect this plantation to the one over yonder?
[13:36] Zha Ewry: Right
[13:36] Zero Linden: (that's a little flowery, but seems plain)
[13:37] Zha Ewry: This also, in general, leads to assets being URLs and global, not UUIDs and tied to one grid
[13:37] Zha Ewry: (They may only be allowed out to play on some grids, but they should be
[13:37] Zha Ewry: referencable, globally)
[13:37] Gareth Ellison: zha - you score another orange
[13:37] Prospero Linden: Has the decision been made where assets go?
[13:37] Gareth Ellison: use UUIDs internal to one agent or region domain
[13:37] Prospero Linden: ASsets *ought* to be in the agent domain, since they're inventory related.
[13:37] Prospero Linden: At least, in current SL.
[13:37] Gareth Ellison: prospero - they should go in both
[13:38] Prospero Linden: OK
[13:38] Zha Ewry: except for the ones rezzed in sims
[13:38] Prospero Linden: In current SL, things rezzed out in regions aren't in the asset server.
[13:38] Zha Ewry: and ones in a library for many people tro share
[13:38] Gareth Ellison: assets specific to a region, like furniture etc should go in region domain
[13:38] Prospero Linden: Gareth : but those aren't even assets.
[13:38] Gareth Ellison: hmm, what happens if a simulator dies?
[13:38] Prospero Linden: They're just objects in the sim
[13:38] Gulliver Linden: my hunch is that "grid" will be a more accessible mass-use term than "metaverse".
[13:38] Zero Linden: Prosero - except for region assets - like inventoy in objects in world
[13:38] Prospero Linden: Saved with the simstate.
[13:38] Gareth Ellison: what if it crashes and burns in a horrendous way?
[13:38] FWord Utorid: everything needs redundancy.
[13:38] Prospero Linden: Zero : we have those? I thought those things were saved in the simstate once rezzed.
[13:38] Zha Ewry: Your tree burns with the simstate ;-)
[13:38] Gareth Ellison: gulliver - "the metaverse" is the collection of all virtual worlds i'd argue
[13:39] Gareth Ellison: nice, single point of failure
[13:39] Latha Serevi: Are we thinking there will be only one kind of agent in the our OGP world, who has SL style objects etc? Or are we going to try to generalize far enough to encompass all web interactions and include someone in a web browser?
[13:39] Zha Ewry: But. hopefully, someone has a backup of your simstate
[13:39] Gulliver Linden: kind of like "Web" caught on, where as "hyperworld" probagbly would not have.
[13:39] Zero Linden: Yes, but when a rezzd object has inventory - *that* inventory isn't in the simstate
[13:39] Prospero Linden: Zero : OH! Right, OK
[13:39] Prospero Linden: Yes, then, asset servers go with region domains.
[13:39] Zero Linden: tht is, those objects are assets
[13:39] Tammy Nowotny: and is the mapping between agents in one domaon and agents in another always going to be one to one?
[13:39] FWord Utorid: if i wear pants from plantation A into yonder B, and plantation A crashes, will yonder B crash, or will I have no pants?
[13:39] Prospero Linden: As well as agent domains.
[13:40] Zero Linden: "assets, assets everywhere, and not a one to rez!"
[13:40] Zha Ewry: I'd argue that you could probably generzlize it to
[13:40] Zha Ewry: Assets are held in an asset service
[13:40] Prospero Linden: "assets, assets, everywhere, and the memory did leak"
[13:40] Zha Ewry: and we have some of those in both Agent Domains and Region Domains, and probably, over time... in other places
[13:40] Zero Linden: Tammy - see - that is exactly the kind of thing we don't want to be in the space
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: a fool and his assets are soon parted
[13:40] Zha Ewry: They are just web services
[13:40] Zero Linden: No - not at all
[13:40] Zha Ewry: with a good API
[13:41] Zero Linden: I shouldn't need an agent in a remote grid at all
[13:41] Zero Linden: I should just be able to go there
[13:41] Latha Serevi: Hmm - perhaps some regions will allow visitors who don't happen to have SL style assets, and some won't.
[13:41] FWord Utorid: wants everyone to kiss my... assets
[13:41] Tammy Nowotny: I see what you mean Zero
[13:41] Zero Linden: Which is why I don't want us to assume the idea that the agent domain always goes with a region domain
[13:41] Zha Ewry: Right
[13:41] Tao Takashi: yep
[13:42] Zha Ewry: And at the same time, some "grids" are going to insist that you come in with some relatoinship to "thier" agent domain
[13:42] Zero Linden: I fear, that if every "grid" (purposly using common terminology) has an agent domain and has accounts....
[13:42] Prospero Linden: Well, any given region domain can, presumably, decide to admit or prohibit any other agent domain.
[13:42] Prospero Linden: But, conceptually, there shouldn't be a one-one link even if there will be some region domains that only accept a single agent domain.
[13:42] Zero Linden: ...then we will end up like the web -- where you have an avatar in every port^h^h^h^h region
[13:42] FWord Utorid: i want to make a sim that travels from domain to domain
[13:42] Zha Ewry: which we realy don't want.
[13:43] Tao Takashi: look here on slide 53: [1] how connections could look like
[13:43] Zha Ewry: we want to keep, as much as popssible
[13:43] Zha Ewry: our avatars singular and places to take them multiple, not the other way around
[13:43] Zha Ewry: I am getting really tired of registering my name in every place I go
[13:44] Tao Takashi: the good thing with OGP is that in the same process we might as well solve the dataportability problem ;-)
[13:44] FWord Utorid: actually, zha, i want to be able to make copies of places and avatars. so like, i could have a replica of this meeting on my opensim
[13:44] FWord Utorid: and i could play it back later
[13:44] FWord Utorid: only, i could edit it, so that later, dahlia was hitting on rex cronon the whole time
[13:44] Gulliver Linden: Zha -- i think you are describing the case where region A is only open to av from agent domain A.
[13:44] Zha Ewry: No
[13:45] Gulliver Linden: that case is fine ... but probably would not be typical.
[13:45] Zha Ewry: Just that you have to hand off to thier agent domain when you tp in, not, keep your old connection
[13:45] Gulliver Linden: Zero-- it that true? my understanding is otherwise.
[13:45] Tammy Nowotny: I cd imagine for example a tole playing sim where there are a finite number ofg roles which are available to anyone who TPs into the sim
[13:45] Zero Linden: In other words - I don't want to have ZeroLinden as an avatar on 25 grids - and have the viewer do the sign-in/sign-out as a traverse from one to the other
[13:46] FWord Utorid: and if i could modify the time stream well there would be some changes in poses.
[13:46] Zero Linden: that will give me multiple-avatar-personality-disorder
[13:46] Zha Ewry: Severe
[13:46] Latha Serevi: Seems mostly a political issue; so we just want to make some technical means available to (a) connect using your home agent domain , and (b) guest-login using a ghosted avatar visibly connected to your home agent identity, in case that "a" isn't possible due to incompatibility, say.
[13:46] FWord Utorid: but, what if i could make four replicas of this sim, and have them at joined edges, mirrored
[13:46] Zha Ewry: and MPD is bad enough already
[13:46] Zero Linden: which I'm pretty sure my medical insurance doesn't cover
[13:46] Tao Takashi: like we have multiple-user-socialnetworking disorder
[13:46] FWord Utorid: so i could watch four copies of the same activity
[13:47] Latif Khalifa: so we should get used to seeing avatar names with domain name attached? ie Latif Khalifa@Second Life
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: fwoard go do this on a Croquet world today
[13:47] Tammy Nowotny: this might also be useful for certain administrative and customer service roles
[13:47] Zero Linden: Latha - see, I think you've posited "second class" status for guests - and that is what I want to avoid
[13:47] Goldie Katsu: I would think a type of trust relationship between two agent domains could work - where you get a partial account (enough to get there) ala OpenID for accessing the region as needed.
[13:47] FWord Utorid: soujanoi ok
[13:47] Zero Linden: I want being in a remote grid with *my* agent domain hosted avatar to be a first class experience
[13:47] Tao Takashi: ah, a grid :)
[13:47] Zha Ewry: When the trust relatonship allows that, absolutely
[13:47] Gulliver Linden: Zha: if RD A only accepts AD A, your AV from AD B is out of luck. but if RD A accepts every one, your AV enters RD A and has no contact with AD A
[13:48] FWord Utorid: what about Null Domains
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: problem is with agent domains handing off control of avies, you now have the possibility fo rman in the middle attacks from untrusted AD's
[13:48] Aramis Tolsen: and you want your mother to understand this?? lol
[13:48] Latha Serevi: Zero - if we don't allow for second class status of some kind, then how can we make ourselves open to visitors from wildly different worlds that don't meet our list of criteria, use the same kind of asset server, etc?
[13:48] Goldie Katsu: The openID being in the case where region domain A does not strictly trust agent domain b, but will accept secondclass agents of agentdomain A
[13:48] Zha Ewry: I'm honestly expecting a full set of both good and messy relationships
[13:48] Gareth Ellison: heh, one solution i've pondered is setting up @domain.tld for surnames
[13:48] Goldie Katsu: which could be promoted to a full class agent if necessary.
[13:48] Zero Linden: Right - so - no hand off, no "matched personalities" on multiple grids
[13:48] Tao Takashi: I still would assume though that different region and agent domain providers have different rules and services and it's not all one big piece of land
[13:48] FWord Utorid: we need a way to make sure that there are places where nothing happens.
[13:49] Tammy Nowotny: LOL. plenty of those on the current grid
[13:49] FWord Utorid: and a way to view the nothing. so we need null domains.
[13:49] Gareth Ellison: and on that remark i must leave early, for i have another meeting about super secret things involving small kittens, python and prim fetishists.......
[13:49] Zero Linden: we really have to strive to make it so that, barring administrative choice of the grid, you can take your avatar to a grid and fully participate, no more or no less than the avatars from the agent domain owned by the grid operator
[13:49] Tao Takashi: and I personally would also like to control the amount of data going from my agent domain to users on different agent domains or region domains
[13:49] Zha Ewry: The problem, I think, is when you want to visit a domain, which is very restricted compared to your current domain
[13:49] Zha Ewry: or, for that matter, in some cases, very much more open
[13:49] Gulliver Linden: Tao: why is that?
[13:49] Goldie Katsu: Also although the region domain may know you came from a particular agent domain does that information necessarily have to be shared with other agents who are rezzed in that region?
[13:50] Dahlia Trimble: thinks a different colored nametag for agents from other domains may be a nice feature for the beta client
[13:50] Zero Linden: I think one way to do this is make sure that by default, when we set up grids, we dont' just automatically include a component that is also an agent domain
[13:50] FWord Utorid: gulliver: bandwidh could be costly
[13:50] Tao Takashi: Gulliver: We discussed this a lot in the dataportability group and in the end it just means that the user should be in control of his/her data
[13:50] Zero Linden: it should be a concious choice to decide to host avatars
[13:50] Whump Linden: Gulliver: possibly differing privacy policies as well?
[13:50] Gulliver Linden: Zha / Latha: i am imagining some form of content negotiation, but waving hands on the details.
[13:50] Zero Linden: At least, I think that would be best
[13:51] Tao Takashi: as I would also see some merge of today's social networks with virtual worlds and we have the problem of user control already
[13:51] Zero Linden: But in any evnt, we need to make sure that we keep talking in this way...
[13:51] Tao Takashi: because there is none today. The services defines even what you are allowed to do with your data
[13:51] Tao Takashi: it's basically the same issue as with objects moving around
[13:52] Tao Takashi: somewhere might be some bad data grabber and I only want to give certain information to trusted people
[13:52] Tao Takashi: or services
[13:52] Zero Linden: I think different colored name tags, or "@foogrid.org" at the end of names
[13:52] Goldie Katsu: It might be something of the higher layers of the trust to identify what agent information must be shared to enter a region. and what information the agent domain will share.
[13:52] Gulliver Linden: understands, but is not sure how such controls would work
[13:53] Zero Linden: will exactly lead to "nationalism" ("gridism"?)
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Gridism
[13:53] Zha Ewry: sighs
[13:53] Zero Linden: which is waht we (I at least) don't want
[13:53] Zha Ewry: A new form of drama
[13:53] Zha Ewry: No, we don't really
[13:53] BlueWall Slade: what if we arent identified by name, but rathere by asn id number
[13:53] Zha Ewry: But I want to konw when I'm dealing with
[13:53] FWord Utorid: i told you, they aren't grids, they are plantations
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Zero Linden the Linden, not Zero Linden the griefer
[13:53] Tao Takashi: I see them actually better working if we place them on top of OGP. Right now with those decentralized social network data mess it's not working at all ;-)
[13:54] Tammy Nowotny: the colors wd be confusing... the @foogrid is better
[13:54] Zero Linden: Right - but the issue of human verifiable uniqueness needn't be bound up in the grid I started my second life on.
[13:54] Latif Khalifa: yeah @domain is way to go
[13:54] Tao Takashi: I don't think we need @something
[13:54] FWord Utorid: we should make it as confusing as possible, to fit in with everything else. it would be more confusing if it was less confusing than the rest of the confusion.
[13:54] Gulliver Linden: Zha: you mean Zero Linden @ lindenlab.com, vs Zero Linden @ griefersrus.com
[13:55] Latha Serevi: (nice and on-target discussion, everybody++) Zero, I do share your desire to establish a clear path towards full portability across grids. But do you see my point at all, namely, that if we want to encompass a wide variety of interoperability across virtual worlds, having some well-defined kind of "second-class ghost visitor" status could be extremely beneficial in allowing broadened access to worlds?
[13:55] FWord Utorid: personally i think that is all profile stuff
[13:55] Latif Khalifa: i don't see how you can distinguess different agent domains without @domain
[13:55] FWord Utorid: name tags are intrusive visually
[13:55] Zero Linden: Right - but I expect that the @ part isn't in my name badge (though I suppose that is just Viewer UI preferences...) but is just visible from profile
[13:55] Goldie Katsu: There is a challenge in that we use our av names to identify ourselves since we can look like anything.
[13:55] Tao Takashi: And actually at least on the public facing side I also have nothing against duplicated names, as long as there is a way to uniquely identify somebody
[13:55] Goldie Katsu: In RL it is practical to have name overlaps and that doesn't usually cause a problem.
[13:55] Tao Takashi: well, like Zero said
[13:56] Tao Takashi: Goldie: indeed
[13:56] Gulliver Linden: likes the idea of "second class ghost", but just when a region does not know how to render "Super Groovy AV 2.0"
[13:56] Tao Takashi: maybe it can use V1.0 ;-)
[13:56] Zero Linden: yes, Goldie - that is a good point --- In RL I know you aren't the "Amy Smith" I met last week, because you are different physical heights...
[13:56] FWord Utorid: your name is Michael Bolton? are you related to the singer?
[13:56] Tao Takashi: what about defining fallback appearances?
[13:56] Zero Linden: in virtual worlds, not so easy
[13:57] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[13:57] Zha Ewry: Also, in RL, most peoplpe dont' have to worry about RL domain squating on the level we see on the web
[13:57] BlueWall Slade: AvatarHostUUID::AvatarUUID
[13:57] Zero Linden: Tao - that is exactly the user requirement we were drafting here at LL the other day
[13:57] Zha Ewry: Someone *could* spend thier life tyring to mimic RL me..
[13:57] Goldie Katsu: Or name squatting like in social media.
[13:57] Tao Takashi: Zero: very good :)
[13:57] Zha Ewry: but that is hard
[13:57] Goldie Katsu: Where Scobleizer has to reclaim his name on each new service.
[13:57] Zha Ewry: here, it's easy
[13:57] Gulliver Linden: Goldie: i think it comes down to using trusted clients (viewer), that provide some facility for viewing unique IDs when you wnat to see them, and hiding them when thy are just in your way.
[13:58] Tammy Nowotny: we had a lot of cybersquatting when Lively oepned, I heard
[13:58] Tao Takashi: it might come down to your friends list
[13:58] Latha Serevi: I'm not talking about second-class clothing as much as "visitor" status for someone who is not permitted/able to rez legal SL objects or provide a recognizable asset server.
[13:58] Goldie Katsu: I'm hesitant on the term "trusted clients"
[13:58] Tao Takashi: if you met somebody you maybe have him on your friends list and the viewer can display if that is the same person or not
[13:58] Zero Linden: wonders "we"? Does Tammy work for Google?
[13:58] Zha Ewry: Trusted client is an ugly thing, in this space
[13:58] Zha Ewry: We basically have to assume a hotstile client, all the time
[13:58] Tammy Nowotny: nooo.. I do not
[13:58] Tao Takashi: where friends list might also contain contacts, so it's more a cloud with different tags for each person maybe
[13:59] Zero Linden: I think, in that case, Zha, it was meant trusted by the user to display the true data
[13:59] Gulliver Linden: Goldie: you trust when firefox tells you a page is SSL, that it is really SSL, right? i mean that kind of trust.
[13:59] Tao Takashi: can I trust my eye doctor? ;-)
[13:59] Zha Ewry: Fair enough
[13:59] Lars Donardson: and person B who doesn't have it on yhis friendlist but knows the name will still thing Zero Linden @griefer.ru is Zero Linden @sl
[13:59] Latha Serevi: Maybe Gulliver just means "a client the user trusts to make things clear for her". the client can be trusted by one person, the one who ran it.
[13:59] Zha Ewry: But don't use the phrase ;-)
[13:59] Tammy Nowotny: I meant the SL community had lots of names snarfed up when Lively oepned
[13:59] Gulliver Linden: Tao: how many fingers am i holding up.
[13:59] Lars Donardson: *think
[13:59] Goldie Katsu: Ok well that kind of trust yes
[14:00] Gulliver Linden: Latha: yes
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: but if you mean Agent Domain can trust this client more because it got a good signature from it over the network then I'm not so certain.
[14:00] Tao Takashi: Lars: Maybe, but then we either have @something in the name tag or we have a central authority giving out names
[14:00] Zha Ewry: lively saved your name, if you had a gmail id
[14:00] Latif Khalifa: you can change name of the avi in Lively
[14:00] Tammy Nowotny: what I meant was many SL reisidents had their avis names cybersquatted when Lively opeend
[14:00] Gulliver Linden: Goldie: yeah, i don't mean that.
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: Ah well that is nice of lively
[14:00] Aimee Trescothick: wonders how many "Lindens" there are on lively now
[14:00] Latif Khalifa: you can change it any time you want there ;)
[14:00] Zero Linden: Then I wonder - who's domain name do *I* want at the end of *my* virtual world name?
[14:00] Tao Takashi: Aimee: you mean hired by Google? ;-)
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: Trust and Identity are overloaded terms and context bits aren't always clear in conversations.
[14:00] Aimee Trescothick: lol Tao
[14:00] Zero Linden: This is why I don't like the @ domain idea...
[14:00] Tao Takashi: Zero: I might want to use a domain I own ;-)
[14:01] Tao Takashi: if it's a domain
[14:01] FWord Utorid: I am Yeast Linden on Lively
[14:01] Goldie Katsu: Status domains!
[14:01] BlueWall Slade: lol. how many names are there to go around, why not use a UUID as teh identifier
[14:01] Lars Donardson: exactly....surely not griefer.ru...lol
[14:01] Tao Takashi: yes, make it long numbers! :)
[14:01] BlueWall Slade: layer on whatever name you need to?
[14:01] Gulliver Linden: Zero: yours! The cool kids run their OWN agent domains. :D
[14:01] Zero Linden: Toa - you and I own domains. Probably everyone sitting here owns a domain. My mother does not
[14:01] Aimee Trescothick: presumably there are a fair number whose RL name is Linden
[14:01] FWord Utorid: I have a camping place there
[14:01] Goldie Katsu: my dad does
[14:01] Tao Takashi: Zero: I know, I am not for using domains
[14:01] Goldie Katsu: To throw in a completely irrelivent fact.
[14:01] FWord Utorid: [2] go to my lively place and camp so i can increase my traffic score.
[14:02] Tao Takashi: I just think everybody should use a name they like be it 1 word, 2 words or 10 words (up to a certain length)
[14:02] Lars Donardson: let's not look at the "cool kids" but the vast majority who don't have their own domain
[14:02] Tao Takashi: but I guess you do not like this idea ;-)
[14:03] Latha Serevi: Have we finished our agenda for the day?
[14:03] Lars Donardson: how would an "average" user know which domain has a bad reputation for example or which one is trusted
[14:03] Zha Ewry: Its actually, really bad to dpeend on the cool kid adopters
[14:03] Tao Takashi: I guess we also finished this meeting
[14:03] Zha Ewry: nods
[14:03] Zha Ewry: Well, they go et AOL accounts
[14:03] Zero Linden: yes - though the problem with NOT understandign the structure of the name (surname, first name, middle name(s), each of which might be multiple words) is that then you can't do semantic operations like sorting the way many cultures expect names to be sorted
[14:03] Zha Ewry: and everyone laughs at them
[14:03] Gulliver Linden: Lars: they won't care ithink, just like my less internet-ish friends don't care. They are find with hotmail, etc.
[14:03] FWord Utorid: trust is something you can't believe in
[14:03] Goldie Katsu: The reputation information needs to be something processible by the client to a certain extent.
[14:03] Zha Ewry: sighs
[14:04] Zha Ewry: I have to spring to my 2:00/5:00
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Jef Raskin used to have an AOL account...
[14:04] Zero Linden: I have to go too
[14:04] Zero Linden: thanks all
[14:04] Aki Shichiroji: Bye Zha, Zero
[14:04] Gulliver Linden: used cool facetiously
[14:04] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[14:04] Lars Donardson: well..Gulliver..now think about some plantation that will care and lock them out because domain xyz has cause so many problems in the past?
[14:04] Zha Ewry: I know GGuliver
[14:04] Rex Cronon: bye zero, zha
[14:04] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[14:04] Tao Takashi: I will checkin my agent domain stuff then
[14:04] Zero Linden: ah, but Jef's son has his own domain name -- actually he has several
[14:04] Aimee Trescothick: according to JustLeapIn's sign up process AOL is now a province of the UK anyway
[14:04] Rex Cronon: i have have to go too
[14:04] Goldie Katsu: e.g. I set PG in my client and unless a region domain is lying then the client I don't go to any Mature sims
[14:04] Zero Linden: later all - thanks for coming
[14:04] Tao Takashi: too bad Jef's son wasn't at this years EuroPython
[14:05] Goldie Katsu: later
[14:05] Tao Takashi: I remember when Jef was there
[14:05] Goldie Katsu: Thanks Zero
[14:05] BlueWall Slade: thanks
[14:05] FWord Utorid: rex, if you need a bathroom break don't tell us, just go ;P
[14:05] Tao Takashi: that was quite cool :)
[14:05] Gulliver Linden: Zero: maybe names should have "collation" rules attached, to describe their parts.
[14:06] FWord Utorid: gulliver, make an extremely complex xml schema to define all of the parts of names
[14:06] Gulliver Linden: Lars... i guess i'm thinking that responsible agent domains will want to have AUPs, so as to not get banned.
[14:06] Pink Clown: Nose: I'm thumbing my nose at Cancer
[14:06] Zero Linden: aza's (jef's son) latest thing ( [3] ) is a riff on one of my open source projects ( [4] _
[14:07] Zero Linden: (warning: either or both of those links might eat up your whole afternoon and evening....)
[14:07] Zero Linden: :-)
[14:07] Gulliver Linden: FWord... yeah. that collation rule idea is pretty half baked.
[14:07] Lars Donardson: this topic need lots of thought showering (avoiding brain storming)
[14:07] Gulliver Linden: first thing that came to mind.
[14:08] Zero Linden: Gulliver - dunno - it is an interesting idea....
[14:08] Zero Linden: then again, maybe such concepts as sorting by surname will be laughed out by our grandkids....
[14:08] Gulliver Linden: it needs detail / iteration tho.
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks he may have inspired that dustup on usenet between Raskin and one of hte later Apple guys. Was constantly emailing remakrs from one to the other via usenet
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: and then it got public
[14:08] Tao Takashi: well, as Zha is gone now, does anybody else know what the correct URL is to contact rez_avatar with the opensim patch?`
[14:08] Tao Takashi: and if request_rez_avatar is actually used?
[14:08] Tao Takashi: I didn't see it in the patch
[14:09] Tammy Nowotny: my RL sisyter went to library school and they had a whole yera course just on how to sort names in the catalog
[14:09] FWord Utorid: :P
[14:09] Gulliver Linden: most people have not needed to create directories that spanned cultures and charater sets.
[14:09] Gulliver Linden: to my knowledge, anyways.
[14:09] Lars Donardson: sure Zero...once they all are uniquely identified by an encrypted chip
[14:09] Lars Donardson: :D
[14:09] Gulliver Linden: i wonder what the UN does.
[14:09] Whump Linden: ttyl
[14:10] Gulliver Linden: so people write there family name first. unlike what is generally done in the US.
[14:10] Gulliver Linden: s/so/some/
[14:10] Zero Linden: A common technique, is to render the names in the Latin alphabet and then put the surname in ALL CAPS
[14:10] Zero Linden: but - I think that is a non-starter
[14:10] Zero Linden: :-)
[14:10] Gulliver Linden: lol
[14:10] Zero Linden: later all
[14:10] Gulliver Linden: bye zero.
[14:10] Lars Donardson: bye Zero
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: take care zero
[14:10] Latif Khalifa: it's the internet, ppl are used to email style identifiers
[14:10] Goldie Katsu: Sounds possibly like an implementation issue.
[14:10] Gulliver Linden: see you guys...
[14:10] Dahlia Trimble: bye all, vote for my jira! :) [5]

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 15

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