User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 August 21

[8:18] Scotts Winkler: hey tree
[8:20] Chav Paderborn: hi
[8:20] Scotts Winkler: hey hav
[8:20] Scotts Winkler: woops chav
[8:20] Chav Paderborn: i think i have a dog like that
[8:20] Scotts Winkler: you mean cat
[8:21] Scotts Winkler: people keep confusing me for a dog lol
[8:21] Chav Paderborn: oh sorry
[8:21] Chav Paderborn: oh youre a siamese?
[8:21] Scotts Winkler: ya
[8:22] Chav Paderborn: have you been a cat long?
[8:22] Scotts Winkler: hey harleen
[8:23] Chav Paderborn: whats happening here?
[8:23] Bross Noel: hi
[8:23] Scotts Winkler: yup since 5/12/07
[8:24] Chav Paderborn: is this a meeting?
[8:24] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning all
[8:24] Chav Paderborn: hii
[8:24] Morgaine Dinova: It's 6 minutes prior to a meeting
[8:24] Chav Paderborn: oh
[8:25] Chav Paderborn: can i be in it?
[8:25] Morgaine Dinova: Of course, if you have an interest in technical details of SL infrastructure
[8:25] Chav Paderborn: i could fake it
[8:25] Morgaine Dinova: Or just listen
[8:26] Chav Paderborn: ok
[8:26] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Sai
[8:26] Chav Paderborn: i come here for the bears
[8:26] Bross Noel: hi Sai
[8:27] Morgaine Dinova: Bears are rare. I have only one </cry>
[8:27] Chav Paderborn: i am collecting them
[8:27] Chav Paderborn: which one have you got?
[8:27] Xugu Madison: there was more than one bear?
[8:27] Warthog Jun: you have to ask
[8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Let me check. If it's still in inventory that is, what with random inventory loss ...
[8:28] Scotts Winkler: hey oliver
[8:28] Oliver Szondi: Hiya scotts!
[8:29] Morgaine Dinova: Wilder Linden Bear, the only one I have
[8:29] Audoa Giha: Hi All
[8:29] Chav Paderborn: oooh i didnt even know there was a wilder linden
[8:29] Warthog Jun: what is the topic of discussion today
[8:29] Morgaine Dinova: Good idea Warthog, let's think some up
[8:29] Oliver Szondi: Hi Pixel
[8:29] Warthog Jun: where is zero
[8:30] Morgaine Dinova: He likes to be fashionably late :P
[8:31] Warthog Jun: well can I make a personal observation
[8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: tree is skinny?
[8:31] Oliver Szondi: lol
[8:31] Warthog Jun: I consider myself an interested party in open sim
[8:31] Morgaine Dinova: We have no fashion sense?
[8:31] Tree Kyomoon: hey...I resemble that remark
[8:32] Warthog Jun: not going to even try to pretend I am a coder for these types of things
[8:32] Audoa Giha: me 2
[8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Translation for non-Americans: s/resemble/resent/
[8:32] Warthog Jun: more a user with some skills
[8:32] Tammy Nowotny: LOL, I know I don't. even though I am wearing my own designs, mostly.
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: im a coder and I miss 90% of it...its mostly communication protocol stuff which I like to take for granted :)
[8:33] Warthog Jun: it seems that things are getting a bit disjointed
[8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: I come here to learn. OFten end up with massive reading lists
[8:33] Warthog Jun: moving from one hot topic to another
[8:33] Tree Kyomoon: agreed
[8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe Tree. I like communication protocols, and I take for granted that some content will appear automatically :P
[8:33] Warthog Jun: I can not code but I can document
[8:33] Dale Innis: good snergy!
[8:33] Tree Kyomoon: lol
[8:33] Tao Takashi: yo
[8:33] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
[8:34] Warthog Jun: there needs to be some glue here
[8:34] Xugu Madison: I vaguely try to track what you crazy people are up to
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: actually more like stmsq
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: "snicker to myself quietly"
[8:34] Ash Venkman: Howdy.
[8:34] Dale Innis: ( do we expect Zero today? )
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey ash
[8:34] Warthog Jun: make use of the less talented as you see fit
[8:34] Oliver Szondi: Is Zha gonna be here?
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: pull up a cube
[8:34] Warthog Jun: involve us
[8:34] Morgaine Dinova: When you expect zero, you can never be disappointed
[8:34] Tammy Nowotny: I just notioced that those tress over there are waving back and forh at an alarming rate... as if we are in the middle of a hurricane
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: prolly not. Sipping Chiatis like as not
[8:34] Dale Innis: ( Zha is still out on vacation, so I don't know if she's going to sneak in or not )
[8:34] Warthog Jun: to some extent educate us so we can help
[8:35] Tammy Nowotny: waves to Dale
[8:35] Scotts Winkler: zero is late
[8:35] Ash Venkman: oh, according to this sign, zero is out today
[8:35] Dale Innis: :) hi
[8:35] Dale Innis: oh, that would explain it! :)
[8:35] Ash Venkman: and also it's march 27th
[8:35] Morgaine Dinova: Tess might pop in then
[8:35] Dale Innis: hahahaha
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Warhog. These conversations have been going on for over a year. its hard to define every term in real time.
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: There ARE reading lists of stuff that people have put out
[8:35] Ash Venkman: eek, lag.
[8:35] Tao Takashi: sign lag ;-)
[8:36] Dale Innis: I thought it was at Least April by now.
[8:36] Warthog Jun: yes but
[8:36] Ash Venkman: warthog, I know how you feel, i'm trying to get up to speed on this stuff too :)
[8:36] Warthog Jun: I have asked for the state of the lsl implementation
[8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: I sent this to the caps-talk list. It indexes the main pages for AWG/Groupies/OGP [1]
[8:36] Dale Innis: Which LSL impliementation, Warthog?
[8:36] Warthog Jun: no one seems to know what has or has not been implementsd
[8:37] Tillie Ariantho: Is it only for me or is SL really rezzing 1 object per second only?
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: ah. This isn't the lsl discussion group anyway and zero isn't really on top of that.
[8:37] Dale Innis: in OpenSim, do you mean?
[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: good observation that ... I wonder how progress would plot on the alleged 2-year AWG timeline?
[8:37] Kriss Lehmann: heyas, Enus
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: its all in the wiki isnt it?
[8:37] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Enus
[8:37] Oliver Szondi: Hi Enus!
[8:37] Enus Linden: hola
[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Enus
[8:37] Warthog Jun: not the up to date stuff
[8:37] Tao Takashi: well, 1 year has passed by now ;-)
[8:37] Dale Innis: It's hard to find stuff in the Wiki without knowing where it is. :)
[8:37] Tao Takashi: nearly at least
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgain, we're behind, but with the new gridnauts and the upcoming pyogp release, I think we're going to move ahead of schedule real fast
[8:37] Xugu Madison: While we wait, how's the Mono rollout going?
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: where is the LSL discussion group anyway?
[8:37] Warthog Jun: more coding than documenting
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: That would be the mono discussion, which probalby is in transition since mono is being released mondayish in a new RC viewer
[8:38] Tree Kyomoon: zero incoming...
[8:38] Dale Innis: woot!
[8:38] Ash Venkman: yeah, i saw Miguel de Icaza's post about that, heh
[8:38] Warthog Jun: I asked yesterday if there was a mono test harness for lsl
[8:39] Warthog Jun: lindens have one
[8:39] Warthog Jun: but it is not public
[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: I think you could be right. Once there is something that sort of works, a lot of people find it easier to jump on board.
[8:39] Zero Linden: Mmmmm..... I love the smell of Kernel Panic in the morning.....
[8:39] Scotts Winkler: hey zero
[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Zero
[8:39] Oliver Szondi: Hey Zero
[8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Good morning Teacher
[8:39] Kriss Lehmann: chuckles
[8:39] Oliver Szondi: is the coffee cold?
[8:39] Tao Takashi: Hi Zero
[8:39] Tammy Nowotny: hello Zero
[8:39] Oliver Szondi: LOL
[8:39] Tree Kyomoon: slapocalypse now?
[8:39] Dale Innis: There are a couple of different LSL discussion groups. / looks for URLs.
[8:39] Zero Linden: And bizarrely enough - it wasn't SL's fault... but the X server!
[8:40] Ash Venkman: Colonel Panic? does he work with General Failure? ;)
[8:40] Tillie Ariantho: has anyone a chair for the old guy? :)
[8:40] Scotts Winkler: bahaha blame X
[8:40] Morgaine Dinova: That's the nice thing about virtual worlds --- coffee can always be hot. The manufacturers of microwaves aren't happy.
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: they all order around Private Parts
[8:40] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[8:40] Ash Venkman: wince wince
[8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rex
[8:40] Tao Takashi: never used a microwave for coffee anyway
[8:40] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero we had a couple of guys from teh E language IRC attend yesterday. Feedback I got was they were impressed with the overall design, caps-wise
[8:41] Ash Venkman: waves
[8:41] Zero Linden: Sweet
[8:41] Rex Cronon: oops.sorry enus, just landed on your head
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: points to Ash jacuse!
[8:41] Tao Takashi: just the web guys won't be impressed ;-)
[8:41] Dale Innis: The SecondLifeScripters group is here: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/secondlifescripters
[8:41] Zero Linden: Tao - please....
[8:41] Tao Takashi: :-)
[8:41] Tao Takashi: sorry
[8:41] Ash Venkman: Hi. I met Saijanai on #python and told him about E, and he told me about PyOGP. :)
[8:42] Tao Takashi: I just want adoption of this thing
[8:42] Zero Linden: The guys are just going to have get out of their "authorized on each operation" mind set
[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Or even just the plain "authorized" mindset ;-)
[8:42] Zero Linden: The original cap designI came up with stemmed from my attending some of the capability discussion group sessions held at HP in Palo Alto
[8:42] Ash Venkman: Awesome.
[8:43] Ash Venkman: So you probably know Zooko and Brian Warner
[8:43] Zero Linden: The E folks are regulars there
[8:43] Tao Takashi: well, caps is the reason why for now plone AD has no security implemented because it does not fit how web frameworks work
[8:43] Zero Linden: I went to two or three sessions about two years ago
[8:43] Ash Venkman: aah
[8:43] Zero Linden: read everything they pointed me to
[8:43] Tao Takashi: so I have to think how to really implement it properly
[8:43] Zero Linden: and designed our current caps system
[8:43] Tree Kyomoon: is HP in SL yet?
[8:43] Tree Kyomoon: is HP in SL yet?
[8:43] Zero Linden: don't know
[8:44] Oliver Szondi: Nope dell is
[8:44] Oliver Szondi: ibm is
[8:44] Oliver Szondi: MS is
[8:44] Ash Venkman: no wonder OGP reminded me so much of Tyler Close's "web-calculus" stuff.
[8:44] Oliver Szondi: but not Hp from my mind
[8:44] Scotts Winkler: sweet dell
[8:44] Ash Venkman: imagines a sim with a 100-foot-high scientific calculator
[8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Web security is an entirely different issue from security of the data carried over web services though. The two shouldn't be conflated. The web systems doesn't have the semantic complexity to cope with data security.
[8:44] Zero Linden: Funny - long ago and far away, Tyler and I were both working on web languages - he and I had several discussions face to face and we just couldn't see eye to eye at all
[8:45] Zero Linden: then years later we've re met and I think we've both come to find much common ground
[8:45] Ash Venkman: Tyler is notably difficult. :)
[8:45] Tao Takashi: that might be Morgaine but we have a better chance of adoption if implementation is simple and uses things people are used to
[8:45] Zero Linden: Well - we were both being dogmatic about or particular philosophies at the time...
[8:45] Xugu Madison: What exactly is the problem with web security and caps? A pointer to background reading for after is fine...
[8:45] Zero Linden: ...which as a language designer you need to do for a few years, of the language will have no integrity
[8:46] Morgaine Dinova: That's an argument for staying with the 2D Internet, lol. I don't buy it at all.
[8:46] Zero Linden: but now, we are both in the pragmatic side of things --- and surprize we agree on alot
[8:46] Tree Kyomoon: I like my internets with extra D
[8:46] Morgaine Dinova: Heh
[8:46] Zero Linden: incidentally, two years ago I got to teach Tyler to play Go --- and he was the best student EVER --- watching him unfold the game in his mind was sheer joy!
[8:55] Morgaine Dinova: Wb Tree
[8:55] Pixel Gausman: anyone seen the new speedtree models, they totally rock.
[8:55] Xugu Madison: any sort of grid registry planned?
[8:55] Zero Linden: Ash - there was a time when I would type a single command on my terminal window and grep the logs of ever simulator live... hundreds of 'em
[8:55] Ash Venkman: i'm sure :)
[8:55] Scotts Winkler: zero whats different the one in SF dallas and phoenix
[8:55] Tree Kyomoon: /if a tree crashes in the forest...?
[8:55] Zero Linden: Now, I'd be drawn and quartered for doing so...
[8:55] Scotts Winkler: i know one SF main one
[8:56] Ash Venkman: Zero, I was talking to Zha last night about OGP's design a bit
[8:56] Zero Linden: The three are esentially the same except for the -- ugh --- central databases
[8:56] Zero Linden: which are in SF
[8:56] Ash Venkman: (All Hail The Central Database)
[8:56] Scotts Winkler: as well asset server
[8:56] Zero Linden: one of the difficulties is keeping the dedidcated VPN circuits up to feed the DB connections
[8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: drawn and quartered owing to demarcation issues, or security, or for adding load, or what?
[8:57] Saijanai Kuhn: wonders if Zero picked up decafe this mornign by accident
[8:57] Lillie Yifu: 1.24?
[8:57] Zero Linden: we have at least one slave copy of the asset server in one of the other colos (I forget which)
[8:57] Tao Takashi: I hope you remember in case of a problem ;-)
[8:57] Zero Linden: Morgain- mostlly for likely bringing the system to it's knees
[8:57] Morgaine Dinova: hehe
[8:57] Ash Venkman: Zero: How much do you see of OGP's design as a compromise with SL's current architecture?
[8:57] Scotts Winkler: zero you drinking de-cafe this morning
[8:58] Zero Linden: We try not to have "control issues" here -
[8:58] Ash Venkman: By which I mean, SL is currently a monolithic design in some senses, and OGP is much less so
[8:58] Zero Linden: since the vast majority of problems aren't caused by operator error or people touching things they shouldn't
[8:58] Ash Venkman: do you expect there to be major changes in a hypothetical OGP version 2?
[8:58] Morgaine Dinova: Well, the grep approach does sort of presuppose repeated "full scans", so yeah, getting and grepping logs isn't really scalable. Fair enough
[8:58] Scotts Winkler: should be under lock & key
[8:58] Zero Linden: and the burden of having those controls in place means our responses may be slower when the right people can't get to what they need to when things are down
[8:58] Ash Venkman: (just trying to get a sense of the direction of the design here)
[8:59] Zero Linden: OGP2? we're hardly started on OGP 1!
[8:59] Ash Venkman: Well sure
[8:59] Ash Venkman: but what I mean is, are there things people want to do that are being left out for now :)
[8:59] Pixel Gausman: still feeling birthing pains from OGP1. :)
[9:00] Enus Linden: we arent even out of the first trimester pixel :P
[9:00] Zero Linden: I think the structure of OGP is a solid foundation at this point
[9:00] Dale Innis: Well, we've just started addressing asset transfer.
[9:00] Bross Noel: lol
[9:00] Tammy Nowotny: will the SL viewer even start 2.* series, or will we just move on to higher and higher 1.*'s?
[9:00] Zero Linden: And, we will have to work out the extension mechanisms....
[9:00] Kriss Lehmann: sorry I may have missed it... OGP stands for:?
[9:00] Ash Venkman: Dale: I did notice that wasn't discussed much yet, yeah.
[9:00] Zero Linden: but there is plenty of space for them throughout ---
[9:01] Enus Linden: open grid protocol
[9:01] Ash Venkman: kriss: [2]
[9:01] Zero Linden: all data is sent in extensible data structures (LLSD),
[9:01] Pixel Gausman: wold love to hear more abt extension mechanisms
[9:01] Kriss Lehmann: thanks, Enus
[9:01] Zero Linden: all functions are identified by URI
[9:01] Zero Linden: etc...
[9:01] Dale Innis: We're starting to Ash; see the Trust pages in Infinity's user-space.
[9:01] Ash Venkman: sure
[9:01] Morgaine Dinova: Funnily enough, we just mentioned with Sai the march of progress vs. the 2-year timetable
[9:01] Zero Linden: for example....
[9:01] Zero Linden: you can, right now,
[9:01] Ash Venkman: Dale: I saw some of that, yeah
[9:01] Zero Linden: define a new function your Region does
[9:02] Zero Linden: and name it: [3]
[9:02] Pixel Gausman: Zero: what's the scope of 'a new function'? ie what types of things do u see there?
[9:02] Zero Linden: then you can use that URI and have a viewer request that cap from the region domain seed-cap
[9:03] Ash Venkman: Sure, that's pretty obvious from the design
[9:03] Zero Linden: well - good, Ash, I'm gald it is!
[9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Well, "scope" and "extensible" are somewhat in conflict with each other
[9:03] Ash Venkman: I guess my motivation for asking was, it seems like agent domains do a whole lot of potentially unrelated stuff
[9:03] Zero Linden: I'm not sure what you mean by scope, then....
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: so the request format will be to POST that uri? one assumes without the [4]
[9:03] Zero Linden: Sai - no
[9:03] Ash Venkman: I was wondering if there was any thought of ever breaking that up.
[9:03] Zero Linden: that is the *name* of the Resource Class
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: I think Pixel meant "how extensible is it", or similar
[9:04] Tao Takashi: had that thought
[9:04] Zero Linden: you request that *named cap* from the seed-cap,
[9:04] Ash Venkman: sai, it'd be like a namespace url in XML, it's not something you use directly
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, I see
[9:04] Zero Linden: the seed-cap, if it supports that extension, returns
[9:04] Zero Linden: the URI to call
[9:04] Pixel Gausman: Zero: yeah me either. :(. i guess i keep getting asked for a pluggable design for the viewer. which i have trouble seeing working.
[9:05] Zero Linden: Well, there are a few areas where we need other explicit extension mechanisms
[9:05] Pixel Gausman: specifically for new rendering capabilities or data viz type or whatever.
[9:05] Zero Linden: for example: texture graphic format types, 3D object data types,
[9:05] Zero Linden: that's because these things are very core and the viewer needs to integrate these options into the basic operations
[9:05] Tao Takashi: Ash: I was thinking about XRDS for doing service discovery. This could then even be used on a user-user connectin basis
[9:05] Pixel Gausman: and everyone seems to thing the worlds problems are solved if you call somethig a plugin, which doesnt always work in an immersive rendering env.
[9:05] Zero Linden: But, consider extensibility of the, say, Avatar Profile
[9:06] Tao Takashi: Ash: e.g. you could find out on which IM services that user is
[9:06] Ash Venkman: Tao: Huh. Haven't heard of that
[9:06] Zero Linden: Rather than defining a message with the say 5 panels and about 100 bits of data that the current avatar profile provides
[9:06] Tao Takashi: Ash: it's used in OpenID, OAuth and gaining popularity among web devs.
[9:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm did I crash?
[9:06] Tammy Nowotny: is the "avatar" synonymous with the "agent"
[9:06] Zero Linden: OGP, I think, will define a much simpler message: avatar/profile_page
[9:06] Tammy Nowotny: no, you are still here Sai
[9:06] Zero Linden: which will just return a URL to web page
[9:06] Tammy Nowotny: althoughh you just stood up
[9:07] Tao Takashi: e.g. yahoo is getting more involved in it now as they hired the principal author of the xrds-simple spec and the oauth spec
[9:07] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: domino effect from Tree
[9:07] Zero Linden: If LL's agent domain returns a web page with 5 tabs... so be it
[9:07] Zero Linden: I imagine others will ahve different data
[9:07] Saijanai Kuhn: local chat lag?
[9:07] Zero Linden: same for region info
[9:07] Pixel Gausman: Zero: i like everything being URL based. that's nice.
[9:07] Zero Linden: and parcel info
[9:07] Lillie Yifu: now avatar and agent are not the smae
[9:08] Tao Takashi: OpenSocial also uses it btw, and OpenSocial actually has some pretty complete profile data structure
[9:08] Lillie Yifu: even though they are often used as bieng interchangeable
[9:08] Zero Linden: here, these systems are extensible by simply vectoring to the data hosting entity and asking it to supply all the presentation and UI - since we ahve a lovely, standard, well understood presentation and UI system: HTML and JavaScript
[9:08] Ash Venkman: zero: I guess we can argue about 'lovely' later. ;)
[9:08] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: no laughter track for that line? ;-))))
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: eeeeek
[9:09] Ash Venkman: but yeah, if your fundamental protocol is HTTP-based, it becomes pretty easy to hook up a web page to handle those kinds of controls
[9:09] Ash Venkman: instead of needing custom UI
[9:09] Tao Takashi: well, just having an HTML representation of profile data is not optimal though
[9:09] Tao Takashi: esp. if you want to move that data around
[9:09] Tree Kyomoon: what does it mean if everyhing is suddnely huge multicolored shapes and triangles?
[9:09] Ash Venkman: briefly considers an OGP simulator with a roguelike user interface instead of 3d
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: am I on SL mushrooms?
[9:10] Morgaine Dinova: Don't mix layers. HTTP is the envelope protocol, nothing more. It knows nothing about the meaning of what it transfers, only if the transfer succeeded or not.
[9:10] Ash Venkman: tao: Sure, but you don't have to use HTML. Look at World of Warcraft, their webpages are all XMl
[9:10] Zero Linden: no no - no laugh track
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: mini-map plus avie locations, for example
[9:10] Zero Linden: (sorry - distracted by second wave of emergency vechiles)
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I want some way of representing the graphics data that is not the full scene graph
[9:10] Ash Venkman: Sai, I think that's a research problem :)
[9:10] Tao Takashi: so having at least a common subset stnadardized would be good. and things like OpenSocial might be useful for that also because it's gaining popularity
[9:10] Pixel Gausman: i think XML defined UIs are popular, and linden already has a pretty nice one.. hmmm
[9:10] Tao Takashi: Ash: Well, I am more talking about talking a common format so machines can read that data, too
[9:10] Zero Linden: True, for OGP, HTTP is just the transport
[9:11] Ash Venkman: Morgaine: Well. All I meant was "url-based"
[9:11] Zero Linden: So the relationship between HTTP for delivering OGP and HTTP for delivering HTML UI is like saying you use TCP for both SSH and IRC
[9:11] Ash Venkman: morgaine: and that web user agents all have very good HTTP support
[9:11] Warthog Jun: gentlemen
[9:11] Tao Takashi: and I guess one could even imagine a client which simply connects to some opensocial endpoint on the AD to read profile data and other information
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: a not-so-smark phone
[9:11] Warthog Jun: logins are disabled
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: smart*
[9:11] Zero Linden: XHTML *is* an XML defined UI
[9:11] Zero Linden: and it is the best known, and most supported, and has the most tools, etc....
[9:12] Pixel Gausman: Saij: yeah, that would be popular.
[9:12] Tillie Ariantho: Logins are disabled? Finally ...
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: AD login provides access to all the AD-specific stuff, in theory
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: so no need for sim presence
[9:12] Zero Linden: Yes, the combination of XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript is a sort of unholy trinity ---- but face, it works, people get stuff done in it and
[9:12] Zero Linden: THE STANDARDS ARE ALL WRITTEN!
[9:12] Pixel Gausman: Zero: so let's use em!
[9:12] Tillie Ariantho: w00t :p
[9:13] Zero Linden: Actually, I think the right way to get from an HTML UI back to viewer control is via JavaScript custom library....
[9:13] Ash Venkman: and it looks like html 5 will be a standard that's actually related to what existing software does :)
[9:13] Zero Linden: but there is a difficult quiestion of security in that case
[9:13] Ash Venkman: Zero: What's the security question?
[9:13] Zero Linden: In otherwords, when looking at an Avatar Profile given in a HTTP UI in a in-viewer HTML pane
[9:14] Zero Linden: I want to be able to click on the IM button in it and have the viewer open the IM window
[9:14] Tao Takashi: a user might want to define what fields to show to which user
[9:14] Morgaine Dinova: Ash: well not really. OGP is going to be implemented as a REST application, so we're only using the simple CRUD functionality of HTTP
[9:14] Zero Linden: BUT how do we decide which pages are allowed to do that?
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: will html 5 be xhtml only?
[9:14] Ash Venkman: Morgaine: That's what I said.
[9:14] Ash Venkman: Sai: No.
[9:14] Tillie Ariantho: I only hope the ingame browser doesnt do javascript, or there might be tries to manipulate the UI from the outside... ^^
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: sai sighs
[9:15] Zero Linden: Tillie - in-viewer browser does javascript today
[9:15] Tillie Ariantho: urk
[9:15] Pixel Gausman: so adding authority caps to ui tidbits... my head hurts
[9:15] Scotts Winkler: whats wrong with javascript
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: does everything Mozilla does (or doesn't) I think
[9:16] Tillie Ariantho: There is nothing wrong with javascript.
[9:16] Ash Venkman: Zero: (extemporizing) Have an HTTP server in the viewer, or an extension to the browser that lets you access local URLs. Use that server/url-scheme to provide caps to the pages.
[9:16] Ash Venkman: Zero: Cajita might help. I'm not sure. :)
[9:16] Tillie Ariantho: But JavaScript for the UI and JavaScript inside the browser ... you know those browser window hacks, where people manipulate other windows even, not only frames ..
[9:16] Zero Linden: Ash - that is a possibility
[9:17] Morgaine Dinova: What's wrong with Javascript is that it adds a hidden and implementation-dependent semantic layer that isn't specified in the RESTified protocol spec.
[9:17] Ash Venkman: Tillie: Yeah. That's why there's something wrong with Javascript. :)
[9:17] Scotts Winkler: :) tillie ya
[9:17] Zero Linden: Ash - that is one possible method, yes
[9:17] Tillie Ariantho: You can always SAY "our scripting language is in a sandbox, nothing can happen". Until someone prooves you wrong. .P
[9:18] Zero Linden: Tree - notice that the URL approach works very well for the use case you give -- this way we don't have to define protocol for the agent domain to tell the viewer what it can and cannot see about a particular agent
[9:18] Zero Linden: the agent domain can just supply different URLs to different viewers for the same agent
[9:18] Morgaine Dinova: And it builds in assumptions about clients too. The OGP spec needs to stand alone, totally separate from any specific implementation that might use Javascript.
[9:19] Zero Linden: in fact, I would expect that it would supply a user, looking at their own agent profile, a URI to version of the data with forms in the page
[9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine +1
[9:19] Zero Linden: Morgain - we are not talking about using it in the core of OGP
[9:19] Pixel Gausman: so do we need some negotiation between agentd and the viewer abt what level of capabilities it desires, UI-wise?
[9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Good :-)
[9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, so this is the LL viewer?
[9:19] Zero Linden: but when OGP needs to vector to UI, we can vector that UI to an HTML browser component
HTML browser component
[9:20] Zero Linden: I leave it to the forces of implementation to decide if javascript is good there or not ---
[9:20] Dale Innis: Having drifted off into UI issues, I assume we're not really talking about OGP anymore?
[9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:20] Zero Linden: any domain will be able to tell if that requesting browser component does javascript
[9:20] Zero Linden: and it is welcome to supply UI w/o out it
[9:20] Pixel Gausman: actually liked the drift to UI talk. :)
[9:21] Zero Linden: though - you are right, we need to figure out how, in a few cases, to get control from the web page back to the viewer
[9:21] Lillie Yifu: That's because it is easier to debug the interface than debug the user?
[9:21] Zero Linden: and if javascript is the only way..... that could be a problem?
[9:21] Zero Linden: Though frankly, javascript (not java) is basically a given these days
[9:21] Tammy Nowotny: well, wd all suers be able to run javascript?
[9:21] Tammy Nowotny: *users
[9:21] Rex Cronon: if u think java script is a problem, than what is flash?
[9:22] Ash Venkman: hup hey, logins are back on
[9:22] Zero Linden: Tammy- all users of SL today can run javascript
[9:22] Ash Venkman: so we were talking about RESTafarians?
[9:22] Zero Linden: it's built into the viewer
[9:22] Tammy Nowotny: oh, I didn't know that. TY Zero.
[9:24] Lillie Yifu: Doesnt' javascript go under the headign fo "someone else's problem?"
[9:24] Zero Linden: [5]
[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: It's only a problem if the required action is *specified* as a Javascript action, that's all. I gather it won't be so. Nobody wants to stop people from using Javascript, as an implementation choice. :-)
[9:24] Zero Linden: open that in the in-viewer browser!
[9:25] Pixel Gausman: flashie no go
[9:25] Zero Linden: ack - it doesn't work
[9:25] Tillie Ariantho: :p
[9:25] Hyang Zhao: heeh
[9:25] Lillie Yifu: Zero --;
[9:25] Lillie Yifu: wait
[9:25] Lillie Yifu: -- Zero;
[9:25] Lillie Yifu: is faster
[9:26] Zero Linden: [6]
[9:26] Zero Linden: here - this one is pure javascript
[9:26] Morgaine Dinova: So, where is FlashBlock for the in-viewer browser? ;-)
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: called ":not yet implemented"
[9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Heh
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: option is always on
[9:27] Shell Corleone: goodmorning
[9:27] Tillie Ariantho: If I resize this page with the ingame-viewer, it goes BLACK! When, finally, is someone fixing those windows for nvidia on fullscreen?
[9:27] Lillie Yifu: Is that being written by Sir not appearing in this film?
[9:27] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Talking of Flash, there was an article on Slashdot yesterday about a Flash-based exploit.
[9:29] Tillie Ariantho: ok, that list drag'n'drop is not working for me...
[9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: huh works for me even on an old powermac
[9:29] Tillie Ariantho: Webpages ingame and nvidia... whyever not fixed, that's why.
[9:29] Morgaine Dinova: Lack of FlashBlock in the in-viewer browser is going to be a security issue
[9:30] Tillie Ariantho: Same for search, borken for months now.
[9:30] Tammy Nowotny: workde for me on my humble MacMini (a PowerPC model)
[9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:30] Tammy Nowotny: (but that was in external FireFox)
[9:30] Ash Venkman: Morgaine: was it loading flash for you?
[9:30] Zero Linden: well - the in-viewer browser doesn't have flash now... or the immediate future
[9:30] Tree Kyomoon: flash 10 just came out...now with 3d hardware based effects and support
[9:30] Tillie Ariantho: Zero: I would be happy it would at least refresh properly and use the scrollbars.
[9:30] Lillie Yifu: That's implementation dependent
[9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: no doubt a $300 upgrade to flash CS 3.3
[9:31] Warthog Jun: Zero could you direct me to the Linden that is resonsible for LSL testing
[9:31] Pixel Gausman: ponders plugins in the in world browser.
[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Ash: yes, seems like it, since accessing the same URL with Firefox+FlashBlock didn't load the table.
[9:31] Tree Kyomoon: CS4 now I think
[9:31] Warthog Jun: I inquired and was told the latest tester was not for public consumption
[9:32] Tammy Nowotny: the internal browser play audio embes and even the soundtrac k of video embeds, I think
[9:32] Scotts Winkler: but they still d/l and use it (:
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: I think the last thing SL needed was to create yet another web browser. It's just completely off-topic to the whole project.
[9:32] Warthog Jun: I want to take it to open sim and attempt to update the implementation docs
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: it is funny that SL represents the most advanced web UI around, yet doesnt support flash which is 10 years old now
[9:32] Zero Linden: Warthog - nope, as there is no single one
[9:33] Rex Cronon: it doesn't support java either
[9:33] Scotts Winkler: will they ever resolve memory leak issue (: grin
[9:33] Zero Linden: I'd hit up one of the QA hours
[9:33] Ash Venkman: I'm trying to imagine how SL could be considered a "web UI".
[9:33] Bross Noel: based on http
[9:34] Bross Noel: protocol
[9:34] Zero Linden: Vektor and Enus both hold office hours
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: an interface for users to interact with each other on the web
[9:34] Tillie Ariantho: with no scrollbars working it is no web ui. .P
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Ash: it wasn't a web UI until recently, when it got hijacked by webbies ;-)
[9:34] Ash Venkman: Tree: I guess you have a different definition of "the web", then :)
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: http
[9:34] Zero Linden: Morgain? We didn't create another web browser - the in-viewer browser is Mozilla
[9:35] Ash Venkman: SL doesn't use HTTP for much
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: perhaps soon-to-be webkit
[9:35] Tree Kyomoon: and UDP
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: that is changing with OGP of course
[9:35] Bross Noel: right
[9:35] Ash Venkman: of course.
[9:35] Zero Linden: Flash isn't, er, open....
[9:35] Tree Kyomoon: swf is open
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: though http EventQUeueuGet cap is essential for the current viewer
[9:35] Tao Takashi: people demand it nevertheless ;-)
[9:36] Ash Venkman: Tree: kinda-sorta open :)
[9:36] Tree Kyomoon: flex is open
[9:36] Rex Cronon: is it posssible to install addons for the browser used by the biewer?
[9:36] Tree Kyomoon: the .fla isnt open, but anyone can make an swf any way they want. Fla is just the easiest way right now
[9:36] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, dont include flash, but tell people where to drop in plugins. ^^
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: only at its heart. The fact is that it doesn't support everything that Moz support, creates extra security issues, requires extra dev resource at LL, and only delivers 2D content which is looking backwards to some degree, even when useful.
[9:37] Trinity Coulter: it might have been more useful to only support Flash, and not Mozilla
[9:37] Zero Linden: well, the format only became open very recently -- and there still isn't a wealth of open implementations
[9:38] Ash Venkman: Zero: Still thinking about that security issue you mentioned --
[9:38] Tree Kyomoon: its been a couple of years...and theres LOTS of software that creates SWF's not owned by Adobe
[9:39] Zero Linden: Right Tree, but not many (any) that play 'em
[9:39] Tao Takashi: has to jet.. cya all
[9:39] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[9:39] Tree Kyomoon: an in fairness, there arent a "weath" of open implementations of SL either :)
[9:39] Kriss Lehmann: My apologies everyone, but I have to go... Extremely intersting conversation and I have a lot of reading to do :) take care!
[9:39] Zero Linden: Well, Morgaine - somethings are just best presented 2D
[9:39] Rex Cronon: by kriss
[9:39] Zero Linden: for example, search results
[9:39] Zero Linden: or profile info
[9:39] Ash Venkman: zero: was the concern you were describing "don't let unauthorized webpages (for example) open the IM window"?
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well the other problem with Flash is that Adobe keep moving the goalposts, on purpose to give them business advantage. Since Flash-heads can never restrain themselves to use only an older version, efforts like Gnash are always chasing taillights, and always will be.
[9:39] Trinity Coulter: or waffles
[9:39] Zero Linden: and, frankly, I can't think of a more successful 2D format than HTML
[9:39] Trinity Coulter: pancakes
[9:39] Trinity Coulter: tattoos
[9:40] Zero Linden: Ash - yes, though admittedly, opening the IM window is at worst an annoyance
[9:40] Tree Kyomoon: the same could be said about Opensim and stuff Morgaine!
[9:40] Ash Venkman: zero: Sure, but it's an example.
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: not really. LL works together with Opensim, cooperatively. Adobe has no interest in working with Gnash people.
[9:40] Tammy Nowotny: unless of course you crash before you can see the IM (or get one at the beginninbg of the logoff process)
[9:40] Zero Linden: waffles? pancakes? and tattoos? Oh my!
[9:41] Zero Linden: and on THAT notw
[9:41] Zero Linden: note
[9:41] Ash Venkman: these are some of my favorite things
[9:41] Zero Linden: I say: Thanks for coming to my office hours
[9:41] Bross Noel: ty Zero
[9:41] Tree Kyomoon: Adobe provides everything they need to work. Its all at labs.adobe.com
[9:41] Oliver Szondi: yvvvw
[9:41] Ash Venkman: Thanks for the interesting discussion. :)
[9:41] Tammy Nowotny: TY Zero
[9:41] Zero Linden: I'm off to go steal the broom from the wicked witch of the REST...
[9:41] Ash Venkman: good luck ;)
[9:41] Bross Noel: good luck
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Cheers Zero, Enus, and any other lurking Lindens :-) And ditto to everyone
[9:41] Zero Linden: er, wait...
[9:41] Warthog Jun: have a good day zero
[9:41] Zero Linden: later all
[9:41] Tree Kyomoon: thanks zero!
[9:41] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[9:42] Bross Noel: regards, all, later
[9:42] Hyang Zhao: have fun, all!
[9:42] Rex Cronon: bye everybody

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 August 21

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